VonRichtofen
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Westjet Applies For Etops For Flights To Hawaii

Fri Jan 28, 2005 7:32 am

Saw this in the paper today. Looks like Westjet is applying for ETOPS to start flights to Hawaii. I'm hoping a YYC-HNL flight will be in there Big grin

WestJet sets sights on Hawaii

Lisa Schmidt
Calgary Herald


January 27, 2005


WestJet Airlines Ltd. has started to certify its planes to fly greater distances over water, opening the door to new destinations like Hawaii.

The Calgary-based discount carrier has applied to Transport Canada for ETOPS certification -- extended-range twin-engine operations -- to permit the airline to fly longer distances over water, a spokeswoman confirmed Wednesday.


Link to the full article:
http://www.canada.com/calgary/calgaryherald/news/business/story.html?id=c09c4b11-3dca-4c6e-99b1-5a7d18377084

 
lymanm
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RE: Westjet Applies For Etops For Flights To Hawaii

Fri Jan 28, 2005 7:44 am

Thanks to the cool looking winglets, no doubt!

Well considering the recent pullout of YVR by Aloha (or Hawaiian, too lazy to check) there certainly is an opening for WJ.

This has been in the works for quite some time, ETOPS prep takes years to complete.
buhh bye
 
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wjv04
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RE: Westjet Applies For Etops For Flights To Hawaii

Fri Jan 28, 2005 8:08 am

I was speaking with a a captain today, he was saying that the majority of the ETOPS certification is done, and that they are very close. I have a feeling it will work out right when the new 600s with the winglets show up.
 
ha763
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RE: Westjet Applies For Etops For Flights To Hawaii

Fri Jan 28, 2005 9:11 am

It is Aloha who is pulling out of YVR. Hawaiian doesn't have any Canadian destinations.

I've said it in another thread that Westjet should use at least the -700 and not the -600. The -700 has better range than the -600 and lower operating costs. The extra range would be beneficial since they may add Hawaii flights from YYC.
 
CanadaEH
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RE: Westjet Applies For Etops For Flights To Hawaii

Fri Jan 28, 2005 9:42 am

Keep in mind that we also have 737-800's w/winglets coming in April, May, and June.
EH.
 
CO737800
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RE: Westjet Applies For Etops For Flights To Hawaii

Fri Jan 28, 2005 11:38 am

That would be great to fly Westjet to Hawaii. When will Aloha stop the Yvr flights? Why are they pulling out of YVR?
 
CanadaEH
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RE: Westjet Applies For Etops For Flights To Hawaii

Fri Jan 28, 2005 12:37 pm

Aloha to end Burbank and Vancouver service

In order to reposition aircraft for the added Orange County and San Diego flights, Aloha will be discontinuing service to Burbank and Vancouver. Effective February 1, Aloha's Burbank-Reno service will be suspended. On April 3, all service from Burbank will be discontinued. Then, on April 11, Aloha's service to Vancouver will end. Reservations will continue to be taken through the last day of service. Passengers booked on future Aloha flights to and from Burbank and Vancouver will be re-accommodated.
EH.
 
ha763
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RE: Westjet Applies For Etops For Flights To Hawaii

Fri Jan 28, 2005 1:38 pm

Keep in mind that we also have 737-800's w/winglets coming in April, May, and June.

If the -800 can make it YYC-HNL, they should use it. They have the feed at YYC to do fill the aircraft. The -800 can definitely can make it YVR-HNL, but is on the edge of the -800's still air range.

Aloha is leaving YVR due to it being a non-profitable route for them. The yields were too low even though I remember the loads being quite decent, in the 70% range which was supposed to the load factor in which it would be a profitable flight.
 
Jetmarc
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RE: Westjet Applies For Etops For Flights To Hawai

Fri Jan 28, 2005 2:57 pm

They mentioned 'destinations like Hawaii'. Considering HNL is international, couldn't WJ be planning on flying to Europe as well???
"Sucka, I'm gonna send you out on Knuckle Airlines. Fist Class!!" ~ Mr. T
 
CO737800
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RE: Westjet Applies For Etops For Flights To Hawaii

Fri Jan 28, 2005 3:06 pm

Does anyone know how Harmony is doing on the Yvr to Hawaii run? They seem to have added more flights so I would think they are doing good. I can see the Palm Springs flight doing BAD. They should think about doing Miami or Orlando.
 
PADSpot
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RE: Westjet Applies For Etops For Flights To Hawai

Fri Jan 28, 2005 5:37 pm

.... Strange. I always thought that a given type of aircraft has ETOPS certification for a particular distance (90, 120, 180min etc). It was new to me that also the airline has to apply for certification.

OK, maybe there are higher maintenance requirements for the engines and the crew has to be better trained for emergency situation. Can anybody help me there with some information ?

Regards,
Jan
 
cgagn
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RE: Westjet Applies For Etops For Flights To Hawaii

Wed Feb 02, 2005 4:07 am

I am also wondering what PADSpot has mentioned in the above reply. Is it extra maintenance on the part of the airline or what's the deal? Other than over-water safety gear, what's the difference?

C-GAGN
Widebodies flown on:A330-300,A340-300,A380-800,747-400,767-200ER,767-300ER,777-200A,777-200ER,777-200LR,777-300ER,787-9
 
Bluewave 707
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RE: Westjet Applies For Etops For Flights To Hawaii

Wed Feb 02, 2005 4:36 am

Westjet service to Hawaii? 737NG flights across the Pacific are also done by Air Pacific with their 73Hs from Nadi to HNL to YVR. I, for one, would love to see WJ 73Ws and 73Hs @ HNL.

Serving the neighbor islands should also be a snap. Harmony already has direct 752 flights to OGG.
"The best use of your life will be to so live your life, that the use of your life will outlive your life" -- D Severn
 
gigneil
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RE: Westjet Applies For Etops For Flights To Hawaii

Wed Feb 02, 2005 5:04 am

A 737-800 can't make it from Canada to HNL.

I am also wondering what PADSpot has mentioned in the above reply. Is it extra maintenance on the part of the airline or what's the deal? Other than over-water safety gear, what's the difference?

The changes at the airline are drastic, and numerous.

Training, maintenance practices, safety practices, many things.

N
 
scf158
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RE: Westjet Applies For Etops For Flights To Hawaii

Wed Feb 02, 2005 5:15 am

This may be a silly question... but what exactly is ETOPS??
 
cgagn
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RE: Westjet Applies For Etops For Flights To Hawaii

Wed Feb 02, 2005 5:23 am

It stands for Extended Twin Operations, if I'm not mistaken. It has to do with how far a twin engine aircraft can be from a suitable diversion airport in case of an emergency, usually measured in minutes. I'm sure someone can explain in better detail.

C-GAGN

Widebodies flown on:A330-300,A340-300,A380-800,747-400,767-200ER,767-300ER,777-200A,777-200ER,777-200LR,777-300ER,787-9
 
godbless
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RE: Westjet Applies For Etops For Flights To Hawaii

Wed Feb 02, 2005 5:36 am

Wasn't there a period where SQ had a high number of inflight engine-shutdowns which resulted in their ETOPS being reduced until they had the problems solved, or am I getting it wrong here?

Max
 
AC_B777
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RE: Westjet Applies For Etops For Flights To Hawaii

Wed Feb 02, 2005 5:40 am

ETOPS-Engines Turning Or Passengers Swimming. Just kidding.
Cgagn has it right. Another version is Extended Twin Overwater Passenger Service
In life, some days you are the bug..... some days you are the windshield!
 
pualani
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RE: Westjet Applies For Etops For Flights To Hawaii

Wed Feb 02, 2005 5:44 am

Gigneil.... Air Pacific flys YVR-HNL-NAN with 737-800 if i am not mistaken
 
N1120A
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RE: Westjet Applies For Etops For Flights To Hawaii

Wed Feb 02, 2005 5:45 am

>A 737-800 can't make it from Canada to HNL.<

Tell Air Pacific that Neil. It can make YVR, YYC would not go. I don't know about with winglets, but a standard 736 has around the same range as a standard 738 so that would not really be a change. A 73G, however would be a good choice

WJ will be better equiped to offer the flights as they are a true LCC with all Y service (as opposed to AQ's F/Y service) and have the feed on the more important end.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
sunrisevalley
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RE: Westjet Applies For Etops For Flights To Hawaii

Wed Feb 02, 2005 5:59 am

GodBless..

I believe you are correct. My information is that ETOPS operators monitor their engines very closely and will pull them rather than risk a shut down. Their maintenance has to be of the very highest order which raises the question in my mind about some operators who could be operating twins but will not.
 
CanadaEH
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RE: Westjet Applies For Etops For Flights To Hawaii

Wed Feb 02, 2005 6:10 am

Rumor has it that our 737-600's will have more range than a 737-700.
EH.
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: Westjet Applies For Etops For Flights To Hawaii

Wed Feb 02, 2005 6:20 am

A 737-800 can't make it from Canada to HNL.

They can and do.



Another version is Extended Twin Overwater Passenger Service

ETOPS certification has nothing, per se, to do with over-water ops



ETOPS = Extended-range Twin-engine Operational Performance Standards
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
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N328KF
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RE: Westjet Applies For Etops For Flights To Hawaii

Wed Feb 02, 2005 6:24 am

Engines Turn Or Passengers Swim.
When they call the roll in the Senate, the Senators do not know whether to answer 'Present' or 'Not guilty.' -Theodore Roosevelt
 
N1120A
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RE: Westjet Applies For Etops For Flights To Hawaii

Wed Feb 02, 2005 6:24 am

>Rumor has it that our 737-600's will have more range than a 737-700.<

Rumor has it wrong.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
astral
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RE: Westjet Applies For Etops For Flights To Hawaii

Wed Feb 02, 2005 6:26 am

There was a recent change by the FAA in aircraft weight & balance calculation. The average passenger weight for US carriers on ETOPS has gone up. Thus the new net passenger weight has made even a B737 NG with winglets having problem in taking a full load from HNL to YVR. Aloha experienced such issue just lately before they announced pulling out of YVR route. Canada MOT will follow the USA and put in similar rules, although carriers now on the route can still use existing Canadian averaging method. With a restricted loading B737-700 winglets version down to about 110 from 149, the route may not be profitable at all for Westjet. Even without weight restriction, a 149 configuration B737-700 NG winglets would still need at least 78% load to break even, and when you are down to only 110-120, it would be near impossible to make money. There is no way a for Westjets current B737 NG to reach Hawaii from YYC even at current rules.
For Harmony Airways (HQ) using a B757-200 there would be no such weight restriction issue, although it have to carry less cargo. With the new weight regulation, HQ's B757 can reach HNL and not Maui without carrying any cargo. Maui is out because of runway length. With Aloha pulling out of YVR, Harmony Airways will become the dominate carrier out of YVR to Hawaii.
Why there is such a weight rule changes ? well, we are in a new century, and we the people just happened to 'grow' a little too much according to research results, especially female !!! (no offend to ladies, but that was what I was told by FAA). The FAA rules accordingly was based on accurate figures and they are quite sure of what they are doing.
 
N1120A
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RE: Westjet Applies For Etops For Flights To Hawaii

Wed Feb 02, 2005 6:34 am

>a 149 configuration B737-700 NG winglets would still need at least 78% load to break even, and when you are down to only 110-120<

What are you talking about? WN consistantly has LFs in the high 60's-low 70's and profits more than anyone.

Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
astral
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RE: Westjet Applies For Etops For Flights To Hawaii

Wed Feb 02, 2005 7:08 am

I am refereeing to using the B737-700 NG winglets to HNL. Load factor is one thing, but yield is another. It all depends on the fares charged on the YVR-HNL route, judging from the current fares level, unless Westjet have another kind of magic, at 110-120 max load and at 78% load factor, profit margin is just not there.
Using a B737 NG winglets ETOPS into HNL also faces 'hot field' condition, plus high altitude seasonal wind, it could at times really taxing the allowable load, thus making it a very slim margin.
Overall Westjet makes money, but it doesn't means it makes money on all its routes, YVR-YYZ is just one good example. The 'possible' HNL route may not looks that profitable to them. I still have doubts about WJ going transboarder, and as a LLC it is a very bold move. I hope they can do well.
 
gigneil
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RE: Westjet Applies For Etops For Flights To Hawaii

Wed Feb 02, 2005 7:10 am

Gigneil.... Air Pacific flys YVR-HNL-NAN with 737-800 if i am not mistaken

Apparently I was wrong then.

But that certainly lends technical credibility to the previous question about B6 on LGB-HNL. They wouldn't do it, but if a 738 can do YVR-HNL then an A320 can definitely do LGB-HNL.

N
 
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yyz717
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RE: Westjet Applies For Etops For Flights To Hawaii

Wed Feb 02, 2005 12:01 pm

Aloha is leaving YVR due to it being a non-profitable route for them. The yields were too low even though I remember the loads being quite decent, in the 70% range which was supposed to the load factor in which it would be a profitable flight.

Keep in mind that Westjet benefits from having more of its expenses in (the cheaper) C$ hence costs should be lower for Westjet than Aloha. Perhaps enough to be profitable with the same yields.

I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
CanadaEH
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RE: Westjet Applies For Etops For Flights To Hawaii

Wed Feb 02, 2005 3:57 pm

Rumor has it wrong.

How do you know?
EH.
 
swissy
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RE: Westjet Applies For Etops For Flights To Hawaii

Thu Feb 03, 2005 4:41 am

My understanding is Airtransat Vacation is using WS Aircrafts and Crews so therefore load factor is not a issue for
WS. WS A/C and Crews are widely used by Airtransat Vacation all over Canada.
Cheers
 
bowen0614
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RE: Westjet Applies For Etops For Flights To Hawaii

Thu Feb 03, 2005 8:18 am

Does anyone know how is Harmony's Charter flight YYJ - HNL doing?
Harmony is now flying to/from YYJ and HNL twice every week
 
astral
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RE: Westjet Applies For Etops For Flights To Hawaii

Fri Feb 04, 2005 6:18 am

Harmony flight YYJ-HNL is not charter, it is a scheduled service but seasonal only. Do note Harmony is no longer a charter airline. All its routes are schedules type, they do accept adhoc charters whenever they can find spare time for their hard working B757s.
The YYJ-HNL flight load are very good, in fact the fares out of YYJ is higher than YVR, and you can only do that when the demand exceed your load plan. Not too bad for a start, and it is possible Harmony will do it again this winter.
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: Westjet Applies For Etops For Flights To Hawaii

Fri Feb 04, 2005 7:17 am

How do you know?

Because said rumor would need to break the laws of Einsteinian Physics to be true... that's how he knows.
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
Arrow
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RE: Westjet Applies For Etops For Flights To Hawaii

Fri Feb 04, 2005 7:33 am

Einsteinian Physics? I thought it was Newtonian physics, with a dash of Bernoulli thrown in.
Never let the facts get in the way of a good story.
 
CXH
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RE: Westjet Applies For Etops For Flights To Hawaii

Fri Feb 04, 2005 7:41 am

As mentioned by Swissy, Transat Tours Canada (the child of Transat A.T. Inc and parent of tour operators Transat Holidays and World of Vacations) uses WestJet for lots of "sun" charters. So all that WestJet cares is that the tour operator pays its' bills and doesn't cancel the series half way through! "Sun" tour operators almost always try to fill their planes, so anything less then 90% load factor is a sign of trouble.

Actually I read an article in Travelweek last fall in which somebody from one of the Transat tour companies was talking about flying to Hawaii for Winter 2005/06, so this is no surprise.

In addition to AC and Harmony doing lots of YVR-HNL flying, Skyservice is flying twice weekly YYC-HNL for Signature Vacations for this winter with a 752. So I'd say more then likely WS will be in Hawaii in 2006 (or earlier!)
I've seen the future, I can't afford it. - Martin Fry

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