krisyyz
Posts: 1266
Joined: Thu Nov 25, 2004 11:04 pm

Will The B787 Be Fly-by-Wire?

Sun Jan 30, 2005 12:21 am

Has Boeing adopted fly-by-wire flight control principal yet? Or is fly-by wire patented by Airbus? Are the B744,777 and 764's still fly-by-cable? I know the f-b-w flight controls offer significant weight reduction on an aircraft and therefore make it more cost effective, which is a direction Boeing is heading towards. So will the ultra modern and efficient B787 be fly-by-wire?

krisyyz
 
APFPilot1985
Posts: 1840
Joined: Fri Nov 26, 2004 12:51 pm

RE: Will The B787 Be Fly-by-Wire?

Sun Jan 30, 2005 12:31 am

the triple 7 is FBW, even though it doesnt use the sidestick like airbus.
Stand Up and Be Counted Visit Site Related to Voice your opinion
 
B777ER
Posts: 431
Joined: Mon Jun 21, 2004 3:35 pm

RE: Will The B787 Be Fly-by-Wire?

Sun Jan 30, 2005 12:33 am

I can probably say with 99.99999% confidence it will be FBW.
 
FriendlySkies
Posts: 3540
Joined: Fri Aug 13, 2004 3:57 pm

RE: Will The B787 Be Fly-by-Wire?

Sun Jan 30, 2005 12:38 am

All commercial aircraft from the 777 out will be FBW...it would be absolutley stupid not to. The 787 will be, as will the 737X. The 747Adv (if made) probably won't be.
 
cedarjet
Posts: 8101
Joined: Mon May 24, 1999 1:12 am

RE: Will The B787 Be Fly-by-Wire?

Sun Jan 30, 2005 12:40 am

Yes it will be, another Airbus innovation like the widebody twin derided by Boeing, then adopted wholesale.
fly Saha Air 707s daily from Tehran's downtown Mehrabad to Mashhad, Kish Island and Ahwaz
 
7e7fca
Posts: 7
Joined: Sat Dec 25, 2004 12:35 am

RE: Will The B787 Be Fly-by-Wire?

Sun Jan 30, 2005 1:00 am

I have seen the Boeing engineering plans, and it will be FBW
 
User avatar
N328KF
Posts: 5810
Joined: Tue May 25, 2004 3:50 am

RE: Will The B787 Be Fly-by-Wire?

Sun Jan 30, 2005 1:01 am

Cedarjet

FBW was an English Electric and DARPA innovation.

[Edited 2005-01-29 17:01:36]
When they call the roll in the Senate, the Senators do not know whether to answer 'Present' or 'Not guilty.' -Theodore Roosevelt
 
delta-flyer
Posts: 2631
Joined: Mon Jul 30, 2001 9:47 am

RE: Will The B787 Be Fly-by-Wire?

Sun Jan 30, 2005 1:01 am

FBW is not an invention of Airbus - it has been used by miliary aircraft for a long time, on both European and US aircraft.

Airbus was the first to implement FBW on a commercial airliner, on the A320. They will again introduce a new inovation on the A380 which Boeing will not use in their 7E7 -- electric driven flight controls for the "third" system (back-up). These actuators are called EHA's - electro-hydrostatic actuators - they are a technology that has been tested over 15 years in the US military and isthe primary flight control on the F-35. It is a very new, but not fully mature technology.

As for Cedarjet's comment about Boeing deriding Airbus, that certainly goes both ways.

Pete
"In God we trust, everyone else bring data"
 
AA737-823
Posts: 4906
Joined: Wed Mar 01, 2000 11:10 am

RE: Will The B787 Be Fly-by-Wire?

Sun Jan 30, 2005 2:00 am

Let us not forget that Lockheed built a FBW L-1011 airliner in the 1970s or maybe early 1980s.

I think that makes them, and neither Boeing nor Airbus, the first to put it in an airliner.

Granted, it was just a testbed. But it still counts.
 
 
FoxBravo
Posts: 2769
Joined: Fri Nov 21, 2003 1:34 pm

RE: Will The B787 Be Fly-by-Wire?

Sun Jan 30, 2005 2:24 am

The Concorde was the first commercial aircraft equipped with fly-by-wire.
Common sense is not so common. -Voltaire
 
APFPilot1985
Posts: 1840
Joined: Fri Nov 26, 2004 12:51 pm

RE: Will The B787 Be Fly-by-Wire?

Sun Jan 30, 2005 2:39 am

FB-
the concorde didnt have FBW
Stand Up and Be Counted Visit Site Related to Voice your opinion
 
NYC777
Posts: 5076
Joined: Wed Jun 09, 2004 3:00 am

RE: Will The B787 Be Fly-by-Wire?

Sun Jan 30, 2005 3:07 am

Yes it will be, another Airbus innovation like the widebody twin derided by Boeing, then adopted wholesale.

Thanks Cedar for just taking 4 replys to turn this into a B vs. A pissing contest.

I believe the original question was will the B787 be FBW (I believe it will be) and not who first introduced FBW into airplanes, commercial airplanes etc. You could help by answering the question that was posed.
That which does not kill me makes me stronger.
 
APFPilot1985
Posts: 1840
Joined: Fri Nov 26, 2004 12:51 pm

RE: Will The B787 Be Fly-by-Wire?

Sun Jan 30, 2005 3:12 am

Although I think FBW is neat, after having read Gordo's book i dont honestly think it would pass the row 5 test
Stand Up and Be Counted Visit Site Related to Voice your opinion
 
FoxBravo
Posts: 2769
Joined: Fri Nov 21, 2003 1:34 pm

RE: Will The B787 Be Fly-by-Wire?

Sun Jan 30, 2005 3:12 am

the concorde didnt have FBW

Oh yes it did. The excellent Concorde SST website has a detailed description of its flight systems: http://www.concordesst.com/flightsys.html
Common sense is not so common. -Voltaire
 
B2707SST
Posts: 1258
Joined: Wed Apr 23, 2003 5:25 am

RE: Will The B787 Be Fly-by-Wire?

Sun Jan 30, 2005 3:18 am

Concorde had an analog fly-by-wire system with mechanical signalling backup. A digital version was tested on the prototypes but not implemented.

http://www.concordesst.com/flightsys.html

Concorde flew before the L-1011 but entered service later, so it's debatable which was the "first" FBW airliner.

--B2707SST
Keynes is dead and we are living in his long run.
 
FoxBravo
Posts: 2769
Joined: Fri Nov 21, 2003 1:34 pm

RE: Will The B787 Be Fly-by-Wire?

Sun Jan 30, 2005 3:31 am

LOL, B2707SST--great minds think alike.  Smile

I would agree with FriendlySkies that, going forward, we will likely not see any new commercial jets designed without FBW. And it's not just Airbus and Boeing--note that the most recent new airliner family to enter service, the EMBRAER 170 series, also has FBW.
Common sense is not so common. -Voltaire
 
User avatar
scbriml
Posts: 13471
Joined: Wed Jul 02, 2003 10:37 pm

RE: Will The B787 Be Fly-by-Wire?

Sun Jan 30, 2005 4:22 am

Yes the 787 will be FBW, and I believe Boeing have said it will include a lot more "envelope protection" than the 777 does.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
 
delta-flyer
Posts: 2631
Joined: Mon Jul 30, 2001 9:47 am

RE: Will The B787 Be Fly-by-Wire?

Sun Jan 30, 2005 4:31 am

Yes, the Concorde did have FBW - I forgot about that. The L-1011 did not have 100% FBW on all its primary flight controls - I think it was only the rudder. As mentioned before, FBW has been around a long time, and Airbus was the first to implement the technology fully it on "conventional" aircraft.

Pete
"In God we trust, everyone else bring data"
 
flyabunch
Posts: 443
Joined: Fri Nov 05, 2004 1:42 am

RE: Will The B787 Be Fly-by-Wire?

Sun Jan 30, 2005 4:47 am

Not to sound ignorant, but could you explain "envelope protection". I did a search and found it mentioned several times but not explained. Thanks in advance.

Mike
 
FoxBravo
Posts: 2769
Joined: Fri Nov 21, 2003 1:34 pm

RE: Will The B787 Be Fly-by-Wire?

Sun Jan 30, 2005 5:59 am

"Envelope protection" means the fly-by-wire system will prevent the aircraft from exceeding certain limits. For example, if an A320 pilot were feeling a bit frisky and decided to do a barrel roll, no matter how much control input he/she put in, the flight control system would not allow it to happen.

Boeing's philosophy has differed from Airbus's in terms of how much envelope protection is appropriate. Boeing has tended to shy away from this sort of limitation, except perhaps in the case of takeoff tailstrike protection, which I believe is included on the 777 (or at least the -300...I could be wrong though). The theory is that in an emergency--say, to avoid a collision--the pilot should be able to do whatever is necessary, even if it risks damaging the airframe. On the other hand, the thinking behind Airbus's envelope protection is that such situations are so rare that it's better to have the added safety that envelope protection provides in most (if not all) scenarios.

Please don't use this to start an A v. B war here--there is no "right" answer to this debate, it's just a matter of different design philosophies.
Common sense is not so common. -Voltaire
 
N766UA
Posts: 7843
Joined: Thu Jul 29, 1999 3:50 am

RE: Will The B787 Be Fly-by-Wire?

Sun Jan 30, 2005 8:40 am

Everything's FBW now. To use cables on a revolutionary aircraft would be blasphemy. I sure hope they keep the yoke, however, a'la the 777.
This Website Censors Me
 
nwafflyer
Posts: 888
Joined: Wed Jul 28, 2004 9:29 am

RE: Will The B787 Be Fly-by-Wire?

Sun Jan 30, 2005 9:52 am

What is fly by Wire? Please explain
 
NKP S2
Posts: 1665
Joined: Mon Dec 20, 1999 3:16 am

RE: Will The B787 Be Fly-by-Wire?

Sun Jan 30, 2005 9:58 am

What is fly by Wire? Please explain

Short and sweet:

The hydraulically actuated flight controls are commanded by an electric signal from the cockpit controls via computers.....rather than direct contol of the actuators via cables/and/or/rods.
 
FriendlySkies
Posts: 3540
Joined: Fri Aug 13, 2004 3:57 pm

RE: Will The B787 Be Fly-by-Wire?

Sun Jan 30, 2005 10:06 am

What is fly by Wire? Please explain

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe it is a flight control system in which the hydralic parts (flaps, rudder, ailerons, etc) are controlled by wirelessly-transmitted signals from a central computer. Each moving part has a receiver, and input from the pilots is translated in the computer and sent to the part. This is why bluetooth technology is currently not allowed on aircraft, as it may interfere with the signals. Again, this is my understanding, someone can probably do a better job and correct anything I have misstated.
 
flyabunch
Posts: 443
Joined: Fri Nov 05, 2004 1:42 am

RE: Will The B787 Be Fly-by-Wire?

Sun Jan 30, 2005 10:21 am

The envelope protection philosophies are very thought provoking. I can see both Airbus' and Boeing's point of view. Interesting that the regulatory agencies haven't felt the need to wade in and screw with it.

Mike
 
lnglive1011yyz
Posts: 1502
Joined: Thu Oct 23, 2003 12:23 pm

RE: Will The B787 Be Fly-by-Wire?

Sun Jan 30, 2005 10:36 am

TO throw a wrench into this, willl the 747Adv have FBW too?

I know it's been discussed in another thread, but I can't pick through the arguing to find my answer. haha

I would think that ALL new boeing aircraft from 777 forward will be FBW. Commonality.

1011yyz
Pack your bags, we're going on a sympathy trip!
 
Boeing Nut
Posts: 5078
Joined: Fri Feb 23, 2001 2:42 am

RE: Will The B787 Be Fly-by-Wire?

Sun Jan 30, 2005 11:00 am

Well I'll be damned. You learn something new everyday. I had no idea whatsoever that the L-1011 was FBW.

It would be costy, but I think Boeing should seriously consider FBW for the 747ADV. It would decrease weight and give the aircraft even better performance. Use the same design as the 777 since Boeing has a good history with that system.
I'm not a real aeronautical engineer, I just play one on Airliners.net.
 
User avatar
HAWK21M
Posts: 29867
Joined: Fri Jan 05, 2001 10:05 pm

RE: Will The B787 Be Fly-by-Wire?

Sun Jan 30, 2005 12:21 pm

Def FBW,But with Control column.not the Side Stick  Smile
regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
gigneil
Posts: 14133
Joined: Fri Nov 08, 2002 10:25 am

RE: Will The B787 Be Fly-by-Wire?

Sun Jan 30, 2005 12:51 pm

All commercial aircraft from the 777 out will be FBW...it would be absolutley stupid not to. The 787 will be, as will the 737X.

The 737NG came after the 777, but is not FBW.

TO throw a wrench into this, willl the 747Adv have FBW too?

Definitely not.

The 747ADV is not going to have any new systems. Its a simple stretch and new engines. The lowest cost strategy.

The 747-500 and -600 would have had more modern systems from the 777, but were too costly and they abandoned it.

N
 
Cpt Underpants
Posts: 160
Joined: Sat May 05, 2001 10:37 am

RE: Will The B787 Be Fly-by-Wire?

Sun Jan 30, 2005 1:13 pm

Friendly Skies:

The Fly By Wire systems are not wireless. There are computers which process the flight control inputs from the pilot sidestick. These computers decide how much to move the associated control surfaces, and then send an electric signal (via wires) to the associated control surfaces. As a matter of fact, Lufthansa had an incident some while back where one of the systems was cross wired during a repair, causing the Captain's sidestick to send a reversed signal to the ailerons. Fortunately, the crew saw the problem and the First Officer's sidestick was used to get the aircraft back on the ground.

Boeing Nut:

The L1011 was not FBW, they just built one as a test model.
 
FriendlySkies
Posts: 3540
Joined: Fri Aug 13, 2004 3:57 pm

RE: Will The B787 Be Fly-by-Wire?

Sun Jan 30, 2005 1:43 pm

Well, I got the signal part right anyway...aren't they working on a wireless one?
 
airgeek12
Posts: 725
Joined: Tue Oct 26, 2004 8:02 am

RE: Will The B787 Be Fly-by-Wire?

Sun Jan 30, 2005 1:48 pm

"The Fly By Wire systems are not wireless. There are computers which process the flight control inputs from the pilot sidestick. These computers decide how much to move the associated control surfaces, and then send an electric signal (via wires) to the associated control surfaces. As a matter of fact, Lufthansa had an incident some while back where one of the systems was cross wired during a repair, causing the Captain's sidestick to send a reversed signal to the ailerons. Fortunately, the crew saw the problem and the First Officer's sidestick was used to get the aircraft back on the ground."

Wow! I was kind of confused until I read that! thanks alot.. it help alot..

ANOTHER MISSION ACCOMPLISED, CAPT. UNDERPANTS!
 
FriendlySkies
Posts: 3540
Joined: Fri Aug 13, 2004 3:57 pm

RE: Will The B787 Be Fly-by-Wire?

Sun Jan 30, 2005 2:16 pm

The 737NG came after the 777, but is not FBW.

The 737NG is a derivative...it would have been far too expensive to upgrade the control system to FBW without a clean sheet design.

All COMPLETELY NEW commercial aircraft after the 777 will be FBW.
 
Jet-lagged
Posts: 819
Joined: Mon Mar 04, 2002 11:58 pm

RE: Will The B787 Be Fly-by-Wire?

Sun Jan 30, 2005 3:49 pm

Well, I got the signal part right anyway...aren't they working on a wireless one?

Probably, but there must be two wiring sytems currently. One for power, and one for signals. So, even without wires for the signals, some wires would still be needed.
 
acidradio
Crew
Posts: 1595
Joined: Mon Mar 12, 2001 3:19 pm

RE: Will The B787 Be Fly-by-Wire?

Sun Jan 30, 2005 4:18 pm

Well, I got the signal part right anyway...aren't they working on a wireless one?

Just what we need - a pax with an 802.11 card hacking into the aircraft's controls and playing Flight Sim!
Ich haben zwei Platzspielen und ein Microphone
 
User avatar
N328KF
Posts: 5810
Joined: Tue May 25, 2004 3:50 am

RE: Will The B787 Be Fly-by-Wire?

Sun Jan 30, 2005 4:45 pm

Wireless does not have to mean 802.11a/b/g. It doesn't even have to be a frequency that is addressable by the consumer.
When they call the roll in the Senate, the Senators do not know whether to answer 'Present' or 'Not guilty.' -Theodore Roosevelt
 
WF2BNN
Posts: 75
Joined: Fri Dec 17, 2004 8:33 am

RE: Will The B787 Be Fly-by-Wire?

Sun Jan 30, 2005 6:06 pm

My God... No it will be flown by heavy and old wires from the ex Pan am 747's
And good old analog modems for internet service, with AMPS analog cellular service, and a normal analog omni directional TV antenna with tube TV's!!!!

And, oh yea - the flight attendants will actually smile to you, and give you great service on the 787!

I'm sorry, just aint' getting anythin' at the moment  Big thumbs up

WF2BNN
What goes up, must come down.
 
allpress
Posts: 40
Joined: Sat Jan 29, 2005 8:56 pm

RE: Will The B787 Be Fly-by-Wire?

Sun Jan 30, 2005 7:12 pm

it has to have ive seen plans and they will do it for safety i rekon that Boeing will go to side stick soon
landing is just a controlled collision with earth
 
Geo772
Posts: 439
Joined: Thu Jul 15, 2004 11:40 pm

RE: Will The B787 Be Fly-by-Wire?

Sun Jan 30, 2005 10:22 pm

I would imagine that the 787 would use an updated version of the 777 FBW system coupled with a more robust version of the airplane information management system.

As for the sidestick, possibly but unlikely to be like the airbus implementation of non backdrive controls, that just wouldn't be very Boeing.
Flown on A300B4/600,A319/20/21,A332/3,A343,B727,B732/3/4/5/6/7/8,B741/2/4,B752/3,B762/3,B772/3,DC10,L1011-200,VC10,MD80,
 
Cpt Underpants
Posts: 160
Joined: Sat May 05, 2001 10:37 am

RE: Will The B787 Be Fly-by-Wire?

Mon Jan 31, 2005 4:53 am

Don't get me wrong, I do love flying the Airbus. Still, in my opinion, the back driven controls in the Boeing FBW system are superior. I've always been befuddled by the Airbus notion that it's perfectly acceptable to have opposite control inputs which result in NO INPUT AT ALL! Yes, I know you're supposed to hit the little red button to take over control before making an opposite input when you're the non-flying pilot. It's just not instinctive for most pilots to do so when the poop is about to hit the air recirculator! There's too many tail strike reports where this as a common thread in the list of contributing factors.

As for the notion of a "wireless" Fly By Wire system, wouldn't that be an oxymoron, like jumbo shrimp, military intelligence, or government assistance?
 
delta-flyer
Posts: 2631
Joined: Mon Jul 30, 2001 9:47 am

RE: Will The B787 Be Fly-by-Wire?

Mon Jan 31, 2005 9:39 am

One thing about "upgrading" an existing type to FBW .... the problem is not simply implementing new actuators and computers - it also requires a different system architecture. In particular, conventional flight controls revert to mechanical control (cables) when all electric and hydraulics are down. With FBW, there is no mechanical link, so an additional redudant electrical channel must be added - that's what makes it hard (nearly impossible) to add it to a 747Adv or 737NG - the aircraft has to be designed that way from the start.

Also, the conflicting pilot input scenario need not be a problem. In the 777, the yoke has force feedback, so the pilots can literally feel if they are fighting each other. I don't know whether the Airbus single side stick has this feature.

Pete
"In God we trust, everyone else bring data"
 
Cpt Underpants
Posts: 160
Joined: Sat May 05, 2001 10:37 am

RE: Will The B787 Be Fly-by-Wire?

Mon Jan 31, 2005 9:57 am

Delta-Flyer:

Unfortunately, it doesn't. As I said, in this area the Boeing setup is superior.