Reggaebird
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Boeing's Next New Airliner After The 787?

Sun Jan 30, 2005 7:24 am


I am fantasizing about Boeing's next all-new airliner after the 787. I think it would have to be really innovative. Maybe it could offer the following:

1) Speed - Boeing didn't spend all those R&D dollars on the Sonic Cruiser and the TU-144LL for nothing! They are going to find a way to make ultra long-haul flights shorter. I would not be surprised to see them debut an aircraft that breaks the sound barrier without the "boom problem".

2) Variable Capacity Configuration - They would debut an innovative design that allows an airline to expand or contract the capacity of the aircraft. Think of something like a vertical double lobe design. The bottom lobe would accomodate 350-500 passengers and the upper lobe would accomodate 250-400 passengers. Additionally, the upper lobe will be removable to make the aircraft more economical when extra capacity is not needed. The conversion would be achievable in 72 hours.

3) Variable Power Configuration - The aircraft will be able to run on 2 engines (single lobe configuration) or 4 engines (dual lobe configuration). The engine management system will be designed for "plug-and-play" use. Physically, the engine configuration change would be made during lobe removal/addition.

4) Variable Wing Configuration - Expandable wing length and fuel tankage would be a major innovation.

5) New Naming Convention - In a bow to the asian cultures (target market) and due to the lack of remaining numbers in the current series, the plane will be call the Boeing 808.

Could my fantasy come through? What do you think?
 
futureuapilot
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RE: Boeing's Next New Airliner After The 787?

Sun Jan 30, 2005 8:06 am

Well... i don't know... but i would suspect they finish their Sonic Cruiser project.... Just a guess. (vote about the Sonic Cruiser vs. the 787 in my poll in my profile!)

-Sam
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Reggaebird
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RE: Boeing's Next New Airliner After The 787?

Sun Jan 30, 2005 8:28 am

I liked the sonic cruiser too but I don't think the technology was really ready yet. Continuing with the Cruiser after launching the 787 would not make sense. They would dilute each other's markets.
 
AeroWesty
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RE: Boeing's Next New Airliner After The 787?

Sun Jan 30, 2005 8:34 am

Well since Boeing didn't develop the TU-144, Tupolev did, we might get a hint of what the next naming scheme might be from what Boeing did nickname their SST prototype: Boeing 2707.

Cheers  Smile
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aa777223er
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RE: Boeing's Next New Airliner After The 787?

Sun Jan 30, 2005 8:38 am

Reggaebird:

The TU-144 was built by Tupolev, I don't think Boeing spent any $$ on it's R&D:


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And I'm all for the Sonic Cruiser project to restart.

Regards,

AA777223ER
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FCKC
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RE: Boeing's Next New Airliner After The 787?

Sun Jan 30, 2005 8:43 am

I think they will be very inspired to make a very innovative 737NG replacement (We heard about a twin aisle plane),and not lose their time with an eventual 747ADV , not to be out of the giant wide bodies market and simply to counter Airbus,as they will not make money with him.
Even if the 747 is a fantastic plane and sure all people on this earth love it greatly , Boeing should consider it's finished forever.
 
boeingbus
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RE: Boeing's Next New Airliner After The 787?

Sun Jan 30, 2005 9:21 am

Not so fast FCKC, you still have to prove that the A380 is going to be a winner for the 747 to go away... Remember the MD-11? I just wished Boeing would revamp the 747 the same way Airbus is doing to the A330 to compete with the 787...

The 737 will be the next all new plane for Boeing... 777 will be improved but not replaced...
Airbus or Boeing - it's all good to me!
 
BlueSky1976
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RE: Boeing's Next New Airliner After The 787?

Sun Jan 30, 2005 9:27 am

Boeing people said themselves, that their next project will be the 737 replacement. Boeing also will not spend as much money configuring it - it is going to be all-composite scaled down 787.

As far as 747ADV go... Dear Boeing... please... bring back 747-500X... PLEASE!!!!
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N1120A
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RE: Boeing's Next New Airliner After The 787?

Sun Jan 30, 2005 9:33 am

>As far as 747ADV go... Dear Boeing... please... bring back 747-500X...<

The 747ADV is actually more efficient, as the 745 would use the conventional engines from the A380
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FriendlySkies
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RE: Boeing's Next New Airliner After The 787?

Sun Jan 30, 2005 9:56 am

Call it a hunch...but I think it will be the 797.  Big grin

I seriously hope Boeing is working on a 737 replacement...they need something ready and waiting for Airbus...if they can make Airbus scramble, Boeing will ultimately get more sales. Big grin
 
SNATH
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RE: Boeing's Next New Airliner After The 787?

Sun Jan 30, 2005 10:04 am

I think they will be very inspired to make a very innovative 737NG replacement

Absolutely. I believe Boeing will make a new plane to replace the B737 and, provided everything goes well with the B787, they will heavily reuse all they technology they developed for it.

I do expect them, however, to go ahead with the B747Adv first.

Tony
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centrair
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RE: Boeing's Next New Airliner After The 787?

Sun Jan 30, 2005 10:20 am

What I think Reggaebird was refering to Boeing/Nasa/Ratheon/Lockheed research program using the TU 144LL back in 1997. Boeing put money into a refit with new engines and work on some new avionics for it for the project. It focused heavily on the use of canards in sonic design which were integrated into the sonic cruiser design. The TU 144 had a higher capacity than the Concord but could accomplish the same speeds and range I believe. The U.S companies wanted to understand it. At the time there was a lot of discussion on a concord replacement.

In my opinion the only logical step for either Airbus or Boeing would be to create a plane that can fly further and faster. We can make planes bigger but people will want to get there faster and farther and do it efficiently. The best option is a plane with over 12,000nm and goes at maybe .98 mach or faster would be best. Cut the time from SIN-EWR from 18 to 10-12 hours. It would allow for new routes like NRT to Sao Paolo at 18 hours.

Maybe Boeing will introduce a 777 with 787 design features. Basically a new 777 of 100% composite with new efficient engines. Call it the 777-400 or 777-200ADV. The 777 is about to become the longest range commercial aircraft. Make it lighter with more efficient engines and we break the 10,000nm mark.
Yes...I am not a KIX fan. Let's Japanese Aviation!
 
boeingbus
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RE: Boeing's Next New Airliner After The 787?

Sun Jan 30, 2005 10:27 am

Efficiency and not speed will be the future. Oil is going to be in short supply and if there is to be future growth in aviation than A and B must look into alternatives to jet fuel. Maybe a hydrogen engine??? dangerous but if contained can be very cheap.

My bet is on efficiency over speed so SST is out... but again maybe somehow there will be a way to get both.
Airbus or Boeing - it's all good to me!
 
flyabunch
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RE: Boeing's Next New Airliner After The 787?

Sun Jan 30, 2005 10:27 am

I vote 737/757 replacement. It will address their largest market segment...one they cannot ignore.

Mike
 
zotan
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RE: Boeing's Next New Airliner After The 787?

Sun Jan 30, 2005 10:44 am

There next plane will probably be a new 737. I dont see the 747ADV happening, and I really doubt they will try to invent something fast. Its impossible to get rid of the sonic boom problem. I cant find any pictures demonstrating it but basically all the sound just collects in one area, and thats where you get the sonic boom from. No way around it.
 
Boeing Nut
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RE: Boeing's Next New Airliner After The 787?

Sun Jan 30, 2005 11:04 am

As far as 747ADV go... Dear Boeing... please... bring back 747-500X... PLEASE!!!!

BlueSky1976,

As much as I am in favor of that, it's just not gonna happen. I like the idea because not only would Boeing have a 450 seat 9,000 nm aircraft, but the -600 would also have a slot in the 500+ seat market. If the damn thing wasn't so expensive to develop, I think it would be put back on the front burner.
I'm not a real aeronautical engineer, I just play one on Airliners.net.
 
777ER
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RE: Boeing's Next New Airliner After The 787?

Sun Jan 30, 2005 11:18 am

Boeing should focus on up dating their current product range after the B787, if they decide to go ahead with the B744ADV then that should be the next project, then build a new B737 with 787 looks, design, technology etc. If Boeing can build a sonic cruiser that has economical engines, like the B787s engines then yes build a sonic cruiser.
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Ken777
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RE: Boeing's Next New Airliner After The 787?

Sun Jan 30, 2005 1:58 pm

Both A & B have some major challenges ahead after the 380 and 787.

Boeing needs to continue with a 747 line and they are well aware of the market loss if they do not. This loss would flow down to smaller planes and I do not see them allowing that to happen. The 747ADV fills a size slot better than any other plane - even a "shrunk" 380. Airlines need to have the option of both the 747 and 380 sized planes to maximize a match with various routes, just as they need 767 and 777 sized planes so there will be a demand. While sales have been slow recently it should be noted that airlines short of cash have been ordering planes to fill the 380 size slot as they already have 747s in the fleet. That situation will not last forever.

The next step is going to be in the 737 size range and Boeing has an advantage right now because of the work they have done on the 787. One would be foolish, however, to assume that Airbus is not working on the same project in the back rooms and may actually announce a 32E before Boeing announces a 73E. I have feeling that A started working on the 350 as soon as they learned about the 7E7 program - that is simply competition and Airbus is very good at competing.

My guess is that Boeing will go with the 747ADV now, have a team of engineers working on the 787 with their assignment being to gather technology for the 737 revision. When the 747ADV is being worked on there will also be joint engineering for a 777 ADV. Following the production of the first 73E work on a 77E will start, followed by the 74E.

On the Airbus side I see the 32E being the next major announcement, followed by an announcement that the 350 will fully replace the 330 line. After that they will announce the 38E and this time might engineer it for a shrink that will compete with the 757ADV/74E.

As much as I love the Sonic Cruiser the market killed it - the dot com bust and 9/11 and to some degree the growth of LCCs. If we were still in the dot com boom and there had been no 9/11 the Sonic Cruiser would still be on schedule. II now believe that it will be a very long time before full fare pax and airlines return to the point where the Sonic Cruiser will be financially viable.
 
airgeek12
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RE: Boeing's Next New Airliner After The 787?

Sun Jan 30, 2005 2:00 pm

probobly something big to try and top up with the A380, but not sure do to the 747-ADV..


Maybe another SST or something??!?!

We'll just have to wait and see!

geek
 
B2707SST
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RE: Boeing's Next New Airliner After The 787?

Sun Jan 30, 2005 2:08 pm

1. 747ADV - 450 seats, EIS in approx. 2009
2. 737/757 successor - 125-250 seats, EIS in approx. 2015
3. "787-10" stretch to replace the 772 - 300-325 seats, EIS in approx. 2017
4. 773/747 successor (perhaps a BWB) - 350-550 seats, EIS in approx. 2020

Beyond that, who knows....

--B2707SST

[Edited 2005-01-30 06:09:25]
Keynes is dead and we are living in his long run.
 
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zippyjet
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RE: Boeing's Next New Airliner After The 787?

Sun Jan 30, 2005 3:03 pm

My thoughts? Time for another Zippyjet editorial....

Boeing rolls out the Boeing 797. Based on the shark tailed 787, the 797 will be the successor to the popular Boeing 737 family. Another Bread and butter commercial airliner. I agree with most of you regarding the desire for Boeing to cross that frontier and forge ahead with a Sonic Cruiser or, better yet an HSCT. However, in all practical purposes, a 797 as replacement for the 737's would be prudent and buy Boeing some time and amass some much needed capital. After the 797 then, the fun begins and I envision the Boeing 808, or 2707 or 7707 HSCT. And I bet the A-Net forums will have plenty of threads debating the merits of the new family of airliners and which number designation is best suited. It will be a 50/50 horse race as to whether it is the Sonic Cruiser or that leap to the new HSCT. Its going to be a fun ride.  Smile/happy/getting dizzy
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jfkaua
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RE: Boeing's Next New Airliner After The 787?

Sun Jan 30, 2005 3:14 pm

yea this is a far out guess.. but I have some inside info its going to be a 797.. and keep this on the downlow but airbus has something called the a360 coming!!
 
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zippyjet
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RE: Boeing's Next New Airliner After The 787?

Sun Jan 30, 2005 3:28 pm

I've been thinking about it more. Here goes: The 787 will have a 1, 2, 3 , 4 hundred derivative. Look for the Boeing 797 (replaces 737) pulling up to a jet way near you around 2012. Boeing will do some experimenting during the 20 teens decade and may come out with mini me versions of a Sonic Cruiser and or BWB bird. As the 20 teens decades passes midpoint there will be the buzz and anticipation of Boeing's 800 series HSCT birds. The 808's first revenue passenger flight takes off in 2018. Then in 2019 Airbus rolls out its A-400 or A 3000 HSCT stay tuned for more hot and heavy high spirited friendly A- Net forums and debates. This HSCT race will be reminiscent of the great Boeing Douglass jet juggernaut of the late 50's early 60's. As I said before it could be a Boeing 808, 2707 or 7707!
But, not to worry for those sentimental aviation enthusiasts and passengers. NW will still be flying those DC 9's in the friendly skies! Boeing and Airbus will develop a healthy side business pimping out (customizing) those old ladies of the sky. Look for a reality TV series; Pimp out my DC-9!.  Big thumbs up
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frugalqxnwa
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RE: Boeing's Next New Airliner After The 787?

Sun Jan 30, 2005 3:47 pm

As the 787 nears service entry, Boeing will dive into the 747Adv. and 737 replacement (797) simultaneously. After that, it will be either the sonic cruiser, HSCT, or B may look into a 777NG. They also may take another look at another 100-seat aircraft like the 717, which is unfortunately going out of production.
 
allpress
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RE: Boeing's Next New Airliner After The 787?

Sun Jan 30, 2005 7:04 pm

wats this A360 supposed to be like
is it gonna be the step from the A340 or maybe bigger than the A380
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LongbowPilot
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RE: Boeing's Next New Airliner After The 787?

Sun Jan 30, 2005 7:40 pm

I hate to bring bad news the the 37 family but I like them anyway. I think in the future you will see a shift in aircraft serivce. What i mean is that you will see airports sericed by 737's will begin to need bigger better aircraft. I think one of the 7e7 models has the capacity of the 757 and would be perfect to replace the 737. It would have more seating capacity, and increased efficiency. I mean look at the trend folks. KORF used to get prop planes 30 years ago.. Now it is getting 757 service from DL. I mean is that not HUGE differance.

 
OHLHD
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RE: Boeing's Next New Airliner After The 787?

Sun Jan 30, 2005 8:12 pm

The 7E7 is replacing (or considered to replace) the 767´s.
Same goes for the A350 (if it is built), which will replace older A330 + A340.

My bet is on a complete new (kind of) 737 model. Propably a B797??

Or they start to design a 757 kind of model.


 
astuteman
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RE: Boeing's Next New Airliner After The 787?

Sun Jan 30, 2005 8:45 pm

I definitely agree with you, longbowpilot, that users (airlines and passengers alike) ARE looking for more space/comfort on aircraft, to go along with more range, and efficiency. It must be the 737's biggest competitive weakness (I think it is competitive wth the A320 most other places).

Boeing have "trumped" Airbus by making 787 "just that bit" wider than A330/340/350, (If I was Airbus, A350 wouldn't be just derivative, but also physically slightly larger than A330)

I think new, composite, BIGGER 737 replacement ABSOLUTELY the first requirement for Boeing - they will lose a LOT more money becoming uncompetitive in single aisle than they will in VLA market.

Winner will be all of us, of course.....
 
Aviation
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RE: Boeing's Next New Airliner After The 787?

Sun Jan 30, 2005 9:26 pm

In a question like this you have to ask yourself what is powering our world at the moment computers what do computers run on... Electricity I believe I know its a long shot but I greatly believe a electrical project could revolutionise the aviation market just think if some how there is a way to produce enough power. The worlds aviation would be clean renewable and a very cheap alternative over the long run I dont know if this will take place in the next 10 years or not but I believe it will take place in the near future of aviation.

Thanks,
Aaron J Nicoli
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PapaNovember
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RE: Boeing's Next New Airliner After The 787?

Mon Jan 31, 2005 12:54 am


ReggaeBird,

I think you've got a great idea! One plane that with modifications can wear many different hats. Sounds like a 30 year plan more than the "next" plane they offer, but I wouldn't be surprised if the Boeing folks haven't already been thinking about something similar.


 
OPNLguy
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RE: Boeing's Next New Airliner After The 787?

Mon Jan 31, 2005 1:09 am

>>>Additionally, the upper lobe will be removable to make the aircraft more economical when extra capacity is not needed. The conversion would be achievable in 72 hours.

Not to rain on anyone's parade here, but the idea of variable capacity via removable lobes/engines wouldn't be very workable in actual ops.

It's inevitable that a set of lobe/engines will be at "A" when it's needed at "B", and that only serves to complicate, not simplify, the operation. Image the situation of having a "lobe" aircraft breakdown, and having a non-lobe aircraft to swap it with. Whoops, only half you folks can go now, since we have a smaller "lobe-less" aircraft. We could put a "lobe" and engines on that one, but it would take 72 hours....

Tough to see this concept taking flight... (pun intended...) Aircraft need to be a constant, and not a variable...

ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: Boeing's Next New Airliner After The 787?

Mon Jan 31, 2005 1:16 am

Def the Future would be concerned with travelling faster & reaching destinations quicker.
I think the 797 would be a faster travelling/less fuel consumption Aircraft,not sure if it would be supersonic though.
regds
MEL
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richie87
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RE: Boeing's Next New Airliner After The 787?

Mon Jan 31, 2005 1:39 am

In the end, I suppose any new aircraft designs will be driven by what the market, being defined as 1.) the airlines themselves, and 2.) secondarily, what the passengers want... will dictate what course the airframe makers take.

It seems that actual aircraft PERFORMANCE in terms of speed and altitude measures hit something of a plateau nearly 50 years ago... followed by increases in capacity, efficiency, and lower operating costs. There is nothing wrong with that whatsoever, and advancing those measures, along with the very welcome long-range capabilities and operating economics will, of course, benefit the vast majority of the modern traveling public.

Still, a rational advancement of certain elements would indeed be most welcome... and there are those long-haul air travelers who would LOVE to see the B Sonic Cruiser become a market reality. I think that would be a great aircraft that might find a certain market, before the next HUGE leap in aircraft development takes place... which could be those very high altitude semi or low orbital aircraft using radically different engines and construction. I suppose that's some time off, of course.

I have heard of one airline about to be "launched" which targets certain destinations and has the idea of an all business-class form of service. It's intended to be considerably more money over conventional coach class, but less than most airlines business-class service. I think there is a market for that, too... but it does not have as much to do with aircraft design.

But I'd say GO with the sonic cruiser idea, although it's probably not going to happen. I do know many people who would happily pay first-class fares for time savings when going over 6 or 7 thousand mile distances, such as from the mainland US to Africa or the Far East. But then... just a dream ! Yeah.  Smile/happy/getting dizzy
 
klkla
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RE: Boeing's Next New Airliner After The 787?

Mon Jan 31, 2005 3:03 am

I would place my bet on a new 737 design based on the new technologies being developed for the 787 (and applied to the 747ADV). Doing this would give Boeing customers amazing fleet commonality and efficiency.
 
Leon8828
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RE: Boeing's Next New Airliner After The 787?

Mon Jan 31, 2005 3:26 am

I would think that any aircraft manufacturer, be it A, B, or otherwise would strive to "think outside the box" or the "tube". Will manufacturers really just keep giving us 707 derivatives?

The sonic cruiser would be more logical for a high capacity, highly efficient aircraft. My guess is that Boeing never really buried the sonic cruiser project. The problems with the lack of windows, passenger discomfort because of the distance from the centerline, pressurization, will all be worked out by the time the 787 is up and running.
 
zaphod
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RE: Boeing's Next New Airliner After The 787?

Mon Jan 31, 2005 3:39 am

How about Boeing entering into a tie-up with Ford or someone for a flying car using hydrogen fuel!!??

Since they are talking about point-to-point...maybe they should consider how man travels intra-city. Take flying off the list of exclusive careers!!

Whats your opinion?

LM
 
zvezda
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RE: Boeing's Next New Airliner After The 787?

Mon Jan 31, 2005 3:50 am

I think B2707SST has the right idea, except perhaps for the timing. Boeing will be very careful regarding the timing of the B737 replacement. One option is to wait for Airbus to go first and then produce a better product. The other option for Boeing is to move as fast as possible so that Airbus is forced to repeat the A350 move -- produce an updated A320 using an aluminum fuselage. If Boeing waits too long, Airbus will be able to counter with a composite fuselage A320 replacement. It's only a matter of time before Airbus figures out how to produce composite fuselages.

I don't see any chance of an updated B777. The B787 will be stretched to cover the B777-200 market. Boeing will eventually replace both the B777-300 and the B747Adv with an all new airliner. My guess is something like the 270inch single-deck twin-engine concept study.
 
Planesmart
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RE: Boeing's Next New Airliner After The 787?

Mon Jan 31, 2005 3:53 am

B already have 747ADV and 737 replacement (797) design teams, drawn predominantly from the old 757/767 teams. A have A30 and A32 replacement design teams in place too.

At least 2 airlines (one US, one European) are already working with B on the 797.
 
transswede
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RE: Boeing's Next New Airliner After The 787?

Mon Jan 31, 2005 3:56 am

Lay off the crack-pipe, folks. The Sonic Cruiser ain't gonna happen.

To really make a difference in travel time, a faster aircraft would have to go beyond mach 2... Anything less will be eaten up by airport delays/screenings/congestion.
 
BlueSky1976
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RE: Boeing's Next New Airliner After The 787?

Mon Jan 31, 2005 4:02 am


The 747ADV is actually more efficient, as the 745 would use the conventional engines from the A380


Actually, no. 745 was designed with an all-new super-efficient wing, that was supposed to signifficantly reduce the fuel burn and make C-market 400+ passenger routes comparable in economy to those of B-market. If Boeing gave the same wing to 745 and apply the composite technology developed for 787 (which at the time of 745 was virtually non-existent at Boeing), then they would have gotten themselves an A380 killer. Unfortunately, it looks like Boeing want to settle for "updated" 35 year old wing...  Sad

I like the idea because not only would Boeing have a 450 seat 9,000 nm aircraft, but the -600 would also have a slot in the 500+ seat market. If the damn thing wasn't so expensive to develop, I think it would be put back on the front burner.

Nowhere in my post I mentioned 747-600X  Smile . But anyway, I still think going beyond what Boeing proposes with 747ADV and re-hashing and updating a 1997 design with a XXI-century technology (the 747-500X) might do Boeing better than "just" making 747-400 all-composite. Jeez, I mean with what they know today, they might be able to give this thing nonstop SYD-LHR range and win back Qantas (iirc one of the reasons why they went with A380 was no other alternative for their 744 replacement). Not to mention Malaysia (a VERY upset Boeing customer once they found out 745 is no more), Singapore, Cathay, Korean, JAL, ANA, British Airways, Northwest, Lufthansa, Air France...

Anyway... just my rant for the day... We could have finally gotten a nice-looking 747 (sorry, but I hate the wing on the current one - this comes from the biggest fan of the 777 gull wing) and we have to settle for A380 (yes, the fuselage is UGLY, but just take a good look at THOSE WINGS....)

Peace
POLAND IS UNDER DICTATORSHIP. PLEASE SUPPORT COMMITTEE FOR DEFENSE OF DEMOCRACY, K.O.D.