Avianca
Topic Author
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American Airlines In Frankfurt

Mon Jan 31, 2005 5:18 am

Dear all,

what it the possibilty to get more AA flights to Frankfurt in the next time?
There is enough demand for a Frankfurt - Miami flight on a B.767-300 on a daily basis. There is enough O&D traffic and enough demand for transiting to Central and Southamerica...

After this step, they could profe to reactivate the JFK flight.

It would be great to see AA again with the power out of Frankfurt pre 9/11 when they had all these flights.

regards
Avianca
Colombia es el Mundo Y el Mundo es Colombia
 
fraT
Posts: 996
Joined: Wed Oct 01, 2003 4:32 am

RE: American Airlines In Frankfurt

Mon Jan 31, 2005 5:54 am

Hey Avianca,

I don't think it's a good time starting a FRA-MIA flight. More and more people (especially from Latin Amrica) try to avoid conecting in the U.S. so I am not seeing this connection in the near future.
 
Avianca
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RE: American Airlines In Frankfurt

Mon Jan 31, 2005 5:58 am

Dear FraT,

yes that is possible, but the other way the mostly people who live in germany have no problems to travell via the US, also a lot of the hug latin american comunity have passports of an european union country or at least visa for the us.

also the o&d traffic is very strog from germany to florida and last but not least in my opinion a needed conection for the freight to the great AA cargonetwork from MIA to complete south america.

we will look

Colombia es el Mundo Y el Mundo es Colombia
 
fraT
Posts: 996
Joined: Wed Oct 01, 2003 4:32 am

RE: American Airlines In Frankfurt

Mon Jan 31, 2005 6:02 am

"also the o&d traffic is very strog from germany to florida..."

...but the yield is rockbottom low. That's why LH is flying only to MIA and let the charter airlines serve RSW, TPA and MCO.
 
Chiguire
Posts: 1848
Joined: Sat Sep 25, 2004 5:11 pm

RE: American Airlines In Frankfurt

Mon Jan 31, 2005 6:04 am

...but the yield is rockbottom low.
Yes, and there are few business travellers, essential for the overall yield of a flight.
 
Avianca
Topic Author
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RE: American Airlines In Frankfurt

Mon Jan 31, 2005 6:11 am

yes this is not really the route with the most business travellers, but enough ritch german people have a vacation home in florida.

I traveled to South America last year with AA from Frankfurt via LHR and MIA. Flight from LHR to MIA was packed with german travellers in conection to BOG, SJO, SJU, GUA, LIM, UIO, GYE...

Colombia es el Mundo Y el Mundo es Colombia
 
Chiguire
Posts: 1848
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RE: American Airlines In Frankfurt

Mon Jan 31, 2005 6:25 am

packed with german travellers
Yes, that´s because AA is cheap in Germany and has nice connections...but Germans don´t need a visa for ths US. Since the new regulations were implemented in the US American is no option for most of the Latinamerican citizens.
And, even if Germans have a vacation home in Florida, it´s not MIA itself, but the Gulfcoast around RSW. Meaning that they prefer a direct flight.
 
Avianca
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RE: American Airlines In Frankfurt

Mon Jan 31, 2005 6:34 am

i think round aboud 1000 euro for the tix are not really chep.
if the yiel es really rockbottom low, why LH still serve MIA with B744 including first class and also MIA is one of the first candidates for LH to serve with A380? And MIA is really not a hub to south america for Star Alliance.

regards
Avianca
Colombia es el Mundo Y el Mundo es Colombia
 
fraT
Posts: 996
Joined: Wed Oct 01, 2003 4:32 am

RE: American Airlines In Frankfurt

Mon Jan 31, 2005 6:53 am

Avianca,

even on the LH homepage you can get tickets for less than 700 Euros incl. taxes. I have seen IT fares fore less than 400 Euros.

To see the importance of MIA for LH note the following facts:
-still no year round service from MUC
-MIA was the last U.S. destination served by the 747-200.

As said before, German tourists prefer the Gulf Coast so I doubt we will see more flights between Germany and MIA.
 
N1120A
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RE: American Airlines In Frankfurt

Mon Jan 31, 2005 6:57 am

>if the yiel es really rockbottom low, why LH still serve MIA with B744 including first class and also MIA is one of the first candidates for LH to serve with A380? And MIA is really not a hub to south america for Star Alliance.<

MIA is absolutely not a low yield destination. It is the only high yield airport in Florida.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
miaskies
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RE: American Airlines In Frankfurt

Mon Jan 31, 2005 7:06 am

MIA is not a low yield destination at all for LH or any other European Carrier for that matter. LH flies daily with 744 from Frankfurt and 3 x weekly w/ A343 from MUC, which is more than enough service for Munich to MIA.

Doubt you will see AA start Frankfurt anytime soon from MIA, you will probaly see another major Euro.City come before that.

Nothing better than making love at 35K Feet!
 
johnnybgoode
Posts: 2144
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RE: American Airlines In Frankfurt

Mon Jan 31, 2005 7:07 am

yep, i second those statements. FRA-MIA is definitely not low yield, at least it is selling quite well in Business and First. there are plenty of wealthy vacationers that do travel in the upper classes.

rgds
daniel
If only pure sweetness was offered, why's this bitter taste left in my mouth.
 
Avianca
Topic Author
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RE: American Airlines In Frankfurt

Mon Jan 31, 2005 7:17 am

FraT, my ticket what's costs nearly 1000 Euro was with connection till BOG.

I have seen many times tickets to MIA from Germany beginning with 320 euro incl. Taxes. Than a ticket price of less than 700 Euro is really not low yield.

Also you can find really cheap tickets from CDG or LHR to MIA with AA under 400 Euro on the direct flights, but this is not a fact that MIA is generally a low yielding market. You know you can find tickets from Europe to maybe NYC or BOS for 250 Euro all inclusive and these markets are generally low yielding? I think not really.

Regarding the importance of MIA for LH, it is totally different story. LH has no connection from MIA, it is the endpoint for most of the travelers. Why was MIA often mentioned for one of there first A-380 LH routes?

AA has a big hub in MIA with many connections to Latin America and the Caribbean.

But ok we will see, we all know that there is not a official planning from AA side for this route. We will see if the future can support this route for AA.

regards
Avianca
Colombia es el Mundo Y el Mundo es Colombia
 
fraT
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RE: American Airlines In Frankfurt

Mon Jan 31, 2005 7:23 am

Avianca,

my bad, I thought you were talking about a ticket to MIA.
 
miaskies
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RE: American Airlines In Frankfurt

Mon Jan 31, 2005 7:39 am

Both LH and AF have mentioned bringing the A380 to MIA.
Nothing better than making love at 35K Feet!
 
aa777jr
Posts: 2269
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RE: American Airlines In Frankfurt

Mon Jan 31, 2005 7:51 am

So AA is only using the daily flights from ORD and DFW to FRA? I've been on the ORD-FRA-ORD and it was full flight both ways. Why doesn't AA open up JFk-FRA again or MIA-FRA?

AA777jr
A liberal is a man who is right most of the time, but he's right too soon.
 
Avianca
Topic Author
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RE: American Airlines In Frankfurt

Mon Jan 31, 2005 7:56 am

yes daily B767-300 on the ORD leg and a B.777 on the DFW.
ORD was upgrated 2003 for a short period to an B.777.

At least DFW is very good booked, ORD not every time but also not bad.

Both flights are full with cargo, it is really not easy to get space when you whant on this flights, most space is sold weeks away the flight date.

regards
Avianca
Colombia es el Mundo Y el Mundo es Colombia
 
Sabena332
Posts: 14938
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RE: American Airlines In Frankfurt

Mon Jan 31, 2005 8:04 am

I believe that AA already flew to FRA from MIA in the mid/late 1990's. I remember that I read in an issue of the German aviation magazine Aero that they quit the flight because it was not profitable.

Can anyone confirm that?

Patrick
NZ1's mother is a disgusting crack-whore and his father is a worthless alcoholic!
 
Avianca
Topic Author
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RE: American Airlines In Frankfurt

Mon Jan 31, 2005 8:08 am

We had a time in Frankfurt with 4 daily AA flights.

DFW, ORD, JFK and MIA

regards
Avianca
Colombia es el Mundo Y el Mundo es Colombia
 
Sabena332
Posts: 14938
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RE: American Airlines In Frankfurt

Mon Jan 31, 2005 8:43 am

Wow, four daily AA flights into FRA, those were the times.

The problem ist that most Germans prefer to travel on Lufthansa or LTU because they think that these airlines are the "best in the world". This is no joke, I heard from many people that they really believe that Lufthansa and LTU are the best  Laugh out loud. I guess that most Germany simply prefer to fly on German airlines.

Another problem for AA is that LH has a very good feeder flight network from almost all German airports to FRA (on some routes they even have the monopoly) while all the AA feeder flights from Germany go via LHR (operated by BA). LH has not only an advantage with the feeder flights within Germany but also because they cooperate with so many other Star Alliance airlines on both continents (JK, SK, LO, OS, BD, UA, US) via FRA while AA has practically no feeder flights from other cities in Europe to/from FRA because FRA is not an Oneworld hub.

In the USA they only have their own feeder network to MIA but who wants to connect in MIA on a flight from the North/Northwest/Central USA when they can have better connections via other American cities which are geographically better situated and offer shorter flying times? Maybe they would get a few transit passengers who arrive on LA from South America but as another member already mentioned, the South Americans avoid a transit in the USA because of the strict visa regulations lately.

While we are at connection flights, of course is it an advantage when you have a better connection network within Europe to fill your flights to MIA than v.v. There are more Europeans who travel to MIA than Americans who travel to FRA as their final destination (FRA is not really a connection airport for Oneworld passengers but MIA is a final destination for many Europeans).

I don't believe that AA will start MIA-FRA flights again because the competition from LH/Star Alliance is too big.

Patrick
NZ1's mother is a disgusting crack-whore and his father is a worthless alcoholic!
 
gilesdavies
Posts: 2281
Joined: Tue Dec 02, 2003 7:51 pm

RE: American Airlines In Frankfurt

Mon Jan 31, 2005 8:49 am

Surprising how AA only have two flights a day from FRA to MIA and DFW. The AA operate twenty flights a day from London (LHR & LGW) and five flights from CDG.

Is it anything to with LH and how they are in bed with US and UA being Star Alliance members and retaining strangle hold on the flights to the US?
 
Avianca
Topic Author
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RE: American Airlines In Frankfurt

Mon Jan 31, 2005 8:57 am

I am looking positiv for a AA flight from FRA to MIA.

For shure AA is interesting to get stronger there MIA hub with conections to Europe. But what city will follow? MAD, LHR, CDG and MAN have AA flights to MIA. Zuerich is conected with the LX code-share. What other Airport than

Frankfurt has the demand for a new AA flight to MIA, we are talking about the strongest continental european Airport. AA station in Frankfurt is still very strong, no GSA for passenger or Cargo traffic.

You all really think AA can not fill up a B767-300 on this route if not to Frankfurt than to no other city in europe.

regards
Avianca
Colombia es el Mundo Y el Mundo es Colombia
 
N1120A
Posts: 26468
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RE: American Airlines In Frankfurt

Mon Jan 31, 2005 9:02 am

>Why doesn't AA open up JFk-FRA again or MIA-FRA? <


Given how many flights a day LH has on JFK-FRA and EWR-FRA, along with CO's EWR-FRA, there is no point. MIA could be possible, but FRA has never really been a big station for AA
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
Avianca
Topic Author
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RE: American Airlines In Frankfurt

Mon Jan 31, 2005 9:11 am

2 per day JFK with LH
1 per day JFK with SQ
1 per day JFK with DL
1 per day EWR with LH
1 per day EWR with CO

totally six, ok but how many has CDG, some more and has also a JFK flight with AA.

Ok JFK is not really a big hub for AA but we will see, because there is a really big O&D traffic between FRA and NYC in premium classes due the big financial districts in New York and Frankfurt.

But I also think that we will get first a conection with AA to MIA
Colombia es el Mundo Y el Mundo es Colombia
 
Sabena332
Posts: 14938
Joined: Wed May 09, 2001 3:57 am

RE: American Airlines In Frankfurt

Mon Jan 31, 2005 9:15 am

As much as I would love to see AA back in FRA from MIA, I don't believe that they will open up such a flight anytime soon. I think that they would rather start new flights from JFK to FRA because it is a higher O & D market.

I forgot to add in my post above that a FRA-MIA flight would also cause marketing costs for AA. They need to tell the Germans that there is another airline than LH which serves FRA-MIA. And I guess that still more Germans would fly on LH because it is the airline they know and prefer (how else do you explain that so many passengers are flying on such a shitty airline?).

Furthermore has FRA not a really big catchment area and Oneworld airlines do not offer connection flights within Germany to FRA. I guess that people from the Rhine/Ruhr Area prefer the LT flight from DUS to MIA (or LH via FRA) and people from other areas in Germany also prefer LH via FRA than traveling to FRA on their own costs to fly on AA. Sure, AA could offer a "rail and fly" ticket with a free train ride to FRA, but what would you prefer when you would live in Berlin? A 55 minute connection flight on LH to FRA or a ~4:30 hours lasting train ride before you fly another 10 hours until you reach your final destination?

Patrick
NZ1's mother is a disgusting crack-whore and his father is a worthless alcoholic!
 
jr
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Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 1:15 am

RE: American Airlines In Frankfurt

Mon Jan 31, 2005 1:16 pm

I flew on AA71 (FRA-DFW) just a couple of weeks back. It was pretty full for a mid week flight - at least 75 to 80% capacity. (On a side note, we departed on time, and got to DFW over an hour late thanks to head winds over a stormy Atlantic).
I've flown on 9V-SPK.
 
MAH4546
Posts: 24724
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RE: American Airlines In Frankfurt

Mon Jan 31, 2005 4:57 pm

American Airlines, as stated, did operate MIA-FRA in the past. The problem, however, was that the high-yielding passengers (which are plenty in the Miami-Germany market, with year-round non-stops to MUC, DUS, and FRA) were sticking with Lufthansa.

American Airlines is planning on opening a fifth MIA-Europe route for winter 2005. Frankfurt has been mentioned, so have Rome, Brussels, and Barcelona. IMO, it will be Brussels. Barcelona will require a new station, and the yield could be an issue. Rome, again, would be a yield thing. They would fill the plane, but the business travelers are going to Milan (MIA-MXP is a busy business route). Frankfurt could easily fill the plane, and with their new higher density 767s, then AA could do well, IMO. However, Brussels offers a new non-stop market, could become a key poltical route (EU in Brussels; proposed FTAA in Miami), but, most importantly, feeds into SN Brussels' African network, and there is heavy traffic between Miami and Africa.

[Edited 2005-01-31 09:00:13]
a.
 
N1120A
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RE: American Airlines In Frankfurt

Mon Jan 31, 2005 5:28 pm

>(how else do you explain that so many passengers are flying on such a shitty airline?).<

Because some of us like it Patrick.

>2 per day JFK with LH
1 per day JFK with SQ
1 per day JFK with DL
1 per day EWR with LH
1 per day EWR with CO<

That is 3 744s, 1 A343 or 1 A333 (depending on schedule), 1 763ER, 1 764ER. That is a lot of capacity

>totally six, ok but how many has CDG, some more and has also a JFK flight with AA.<

Paris is the bigger city, with a bigger tourist market as well as the high yield. Also, you have the DL mini-hub at JFK feeding SkyTeam, as well as the CO SkyTeam hub at EWR. 10 flights a day, mixed 777s, A330s, 763s.

>Ok JFK is not really a big hub for AA but we will see, because there is a really big O&D traffic between FRA and NYC in premium classes due the big financial districts in New York and Frankfurt.<

As there is to many other cities. That is why CDG and LHR get more flights. Also, with 2 flights a day to Muenchen, including the all J class PrivatAir BBJ to EWR, that is 8 flights a day and lots of premium seats to Germany.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
fraT
Posts: 996
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RE: American Airlines In Frankfurt

Mon Jan 31, 2005 6:35 pm

"Surprising how AA only have two flights a day from FRA to MIA and DFW. The AA operate twenty flights a day from London (LHR & LGW) and five flights from CDG.
Is it anything to with LH and how they are in bed with US and UA being Star Alliance members and retaining strangle hold on the flights to the US?"

Gilesdavies,

there are so many flights from London as AA is in bed with BA.
If you are flying transatlantic on LH, UA or AC you will notice that there are tons of pax connecting in FRA from all over Europe, the Middle East and Asia (India!). That's the big advantage of the Star Alliance and it's large number of members.
 
PA101
Posts: 312
Joined: Sun Jan 16, 2005 10:28 am

RE: American Airlines In Frankfurt

Mon Jan 31, 2005 8:22 pm

I've always been wondering why AA has a rather poor appearance in Germany. They just serve FRA, and that is from ORD and DFW. So, for everyone flying to the Eastcoast, AA ist not an option. Even though they have a minihub at JFK, they don't even send a 763 to FRA...Strange to me - of course, FRA is not a Oneway-Hub, however, shouldn't larger airlines also be involved at places where they don't hub (the Oneway-members QF and CX also have daily 744-flights, even though FRA ist not THAT important to them...). Or what about LA's daily A343-service to SCL???

Compared to DL (serving FRA from three hubs and with flights to MUC, STR and soon TXL), UA & US (o.k. - the StarAlliance partners to LH), or CO (soon serving HAM and TXL in addition to FRA), you would figure that a major carrier such as AA would do more to serve a large market such as Germany. Sure, there are the BA-codeshares via LHR, but especially when going to places such as JFK, MIA or LAX, most people rather avoid LHR due to lots of other options...
 
godbless
Posts: 2680
Joined: Tue Apr 04, 2000 5:26 am

RE: American Airlines In Frankfurt

Mon Jan 31, 2005 11:26 pm

Germany really seems to be left out by AA. I know for sure that they once flew to DUS, did they serve any other routes to Germany?

And getting back to the yield. It doesn't really matter if you can get a 300, 500, 700 or 1000EUR bargain on a flight, none of those prices make an airline happy... It's the 2000, 3000 or 4000EUR tickets they sell that really give the yield the lift to make a flight worthwhile for an airline. That is basically the reason why LH uses Business-class-only (=> expensive tickets...) ACJ's and BBJ's to NY and ORD from DUS and MUC.

Max
 
jsnww81
Posts: 2307
Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2002 3:29 am

RE: American Airlines In Frankfurt

Tue Feb 01, 2005 12:33 am

Regarding other American Airlines routes to Germany, for a short while in the early 1990s they did a Chicago O'Hare - Berlin Tegel route. Didn't last long at all, though.
 
777STL
Posts: 2770
Joined: Mon Dec 13, 2004 8:22 am

RE: American Airlines In Frankfurt

Tue Feb 01, 2005 2:49 am

Does LH have a nonstop to RSW?

-77
PHX based
 
fraT
Posts: 996
Joined: Wed Oct 01, 2003 4:32 am

RE: American Airlines In Frankfurt

Tue Feb 01, 2005 3:26 am

777Stl,
no they don't. LH flies to MIA only in Florida.
 
Avianca
Topic Author
Posts: 5283
Joined: Tue Jan 25, 2005 5:33 am

RE: American Airlines In Frankfurt

Tue Feb 01, 2005 3:31 am

AA served also MUC and DUS from ORD in the 1990s...
if you compared this it it is really nothing what AA does in the moment in the german market....
Colombia es el Mundo Y el Mundo es Colombia
 
selcalcheckok
Posts: 43
Joined: Tue Feb 01, 2005 3:37 am

RE: American Airlines In Frankfurt

Tue Feb 01, 2005 3:54 am

Hi everyone, I've been reading you guys for over a year now, and have finally decided to join in the fun...

I have to ask though...Sabena332 I didn't really understand the post regarding "such a sh*tty airline" can you explain?

Because if LH was a sh*tty airline, then we wouldn't be having this discussion and AA would be all over FRA especially from MIA. MIA is a hub for German travelers on Holiday (and obviously a domestic and Int'l hub for AA ), just like the rest of South Florida, explaining the flights from FRA and MUC.

Just my two cents, perhaps I misunderstood.
 
Sabena332
Posts: 14938
Joined: Wed May 09, 2001 3:57 am

RE: American Airlines In Frankfurt

Tue Feb 01, 2005 4:00 am

Because if LH was a sh*tty airline, then we wouldn't be having this discussion and AA would be all over FRA especially from MIA.

As I wrote above, Germans clearly prefer German airlines (especially Lufthansa) no matter if they are far below the standard of other airlines, furthermore gets the LH flight to MIA a lot of connecting passengers from other Star Alliance airlines while an AA flight from FRA to MIA wouldn't get so many connecting passengers because FRA is not a Oneworld hub.

Patrick
NZ1's mother is a disgusting crack-whore and his father is a worthless alcoholic!
 
PA101
Posts: 312
Joined: Sun Jan 16, 2005 10:28 am

RE: American Airlines In Frankfurt

Tue Feb 01, 2005 4:06 am

I know for sure that they once flew to DUS, did they serve any other routes to Germany?

They also served HAM in the early Nineties - probably from ORD. But as the flights to TXL, DUS or MUC - that didn't last too long.
So, there is just FRA - to me, pretty bad performance for such a large carrier.
 
selcalcheckok
Posts: 43
Joined: Tue Feb 01, 2005 3:37 am

RE: American Airlines In Frankfurt

Tue Feb 01, 2005 4:14 am

Patrick,

Thanks for clarifying. Ill respond to your LH bashing in the LH bashing thread.

Chris
 
MAH4546
Posts: 24724
Joined: Wed Jan 24, 2001 1:44 pm

RE: American Airlines In Frankfurt

Tue Feb 01, 2005 7:47 am

Does LH have a nonstop to RSW?

No, but LTU flies to Fort Myers from both Dusseldorf and Munich (Munich flight stops in Miami on the way back to Munich) and Condor, Lufthansa's holiday division, flies RSW-FRA.
a.

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