ac7e7
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AC Will Announce 50-jet Order This Year 787/A350

Mon Jan 31, 2005 9:44 am

Air Canada expands its fleet
By Bernard Simon
Financial Times
Published: January 30 2005 23:16 | Last updated: January 30 2005 23:16

Air Canada plans to order about 50 wide-body aircraft later this year for its expanding international network.


The Montreal-based carrier, which emerged from a court-supervised restructuring last October, is one of the few traditional North American airlines replenishing its fleet. While most US carriers remain in deep financial difficulty, Air Canada is forecasting an operating profit of about C$1.6bn (US$1.28bn) this year.

The Canadian carrier used the restructuring to cut its debt from C$12bn to C$4bn, and to raise C$1.1bn in new equity. With the bulk of its debt and lease obligations denominated in US dollars, Air Canada has also benefited from a sharp rise in the Canadian dollar.

Robert Milton, chief executive, said the airline was likely to order either the Boeing 7E7 Dreamliner or the Airbus A-350, each with a capacity of about 250 passengers. The new aircraft will replace an ageing fleet of wide-body Boeing 767s.

The 7E7 is due to enter service in 2008. Airbus's shareholders gave the go-ahead for the A-350 last month, with a target introduction date of 2010.

Air Canada is already bumping into capacity constraints as it expands its international services, especially to Asia and Latin America.

It has recently brought two mothballed 767s back into service and is leasing several used 767s and long-range Airbus A-340s.

The carrier will also start taking delivery later this year of 105 Embraer and Bombardier regional jets to improve flexibility



[Edited 2005-01-31 01:51:09]
 
CB777
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RE: AC Will Announce 50-jet Order This Year 787/A350

Mon Jan 31, 2005 9:47 am

I hope Boeing really pursues this order
 
burnsie28
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RE: AC Will Announce 50-jet Order This Year 787/A350

Mon Jan 31, 2005 9:52 am

Ditto, I got to go with the 787 this time, as its kinda like the 757 vs. A321, the 757 is a much better product, and same goes for 787 vs A350 even though the A350 is more of a 777 competitor.
 
yhz78
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RE: AC Will Announce 50-jet Order This Year 787/A350

Mon Jan 31, 2005 9:54 am

I'd love to see AC go Boeing on this deal as well but with the 767's being retired, that means that all widebodies left are either A330/340 aircraft. It only makes sense from a logical point of view to go with Airbus and keep MX costs, labor and training costs down. Then again, when do airlines ever go and do the logical thing.  Smile
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ac7e7
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RE: AC Will Announce 50-jet Order This Year 787/A350

Mon Jan 31, 2005 9:55 am

I want to see the 787 win this order. I like Airbus products, but the Dreamliner is so revolutionary. C'mon Boeing, this is your chance!
 
SNATH
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RE: AC Will Announce 50-jet Order This Year 787/A350

Mon Jan 31, 2005 9:56 am

This is Milton's chance to convince us that he really doesn't want AC to be an all-Airbus carrier (as he apparently claimed sometime ago...).

If Boeing wins this campaign then, in my opinion, it will really show the true potential of the B787 compared to the A350. Given all the 'buses that AC has, it will be quite a U-turn for them to buy 50 planes from Boeing. I hope it happens. I'm an Aeroplan Elite (for 5 years now...) and I hope I get to fly on an AC 787 one day. But I'm sure Airbus will fight hard for this campaign too.

Tony
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caribb
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RE: AC Will Announce 50-jet Order This Year 787/A350

Mon Jan 31, 2005 9:57 am

Me too, I'm aching for a 787 order! Come on Air Canada we need some more Boeings in the fleet.
 
ac7e7
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RE: AC Will Announce 50-jet Order This Year 787/A350

Mon Jan 31, 2005 10:01 am

I'd love to see AC go Boeing on this deal as well but with the 767's being retired, that means that all widebodies left are either A330/340 aircraft. It only makes sense from a logical point of view to go with Airbus and keep MX costs, labor and training costs down. Then again, when do airlines ever go and do the logical thing.

After a fleet reaches about 35 aircraft, commonality means little in terms of cost reductions. It would not make sense for AC to order say 15 787. But with AC ordering at least 50... and I suspect they will order more... commonality will mean little.
 
yhz78
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RE: AC Will Announce 50-jet Order This Year 787/A350

Mon Jan 31, 2005 10:07 am

That's true AC7E7. At least with Mulroney gone Boeing will have a chance this time.
Canada Rocks! From the west coast to the best coast!
 
CO737800
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RE: AC Will Announce 50-jet Order This Year 787/A350

Mon Jan 31, 2005 10:12 am

I would love to see some AC 787's. If they order the 787 I will fly Air Canada again.
 
flybyguy
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RE: AC Will Announce 50-jet Order This Year 787/A350

Mon Jan 31, 2005 10:23 am

AC has better ties with Europe than the States (HRM Elizabeth II is head of state, French is widely spoken as an official language etc.). I suspect that this publicized decision for either the A350 or 787 is a ploy by AC to get juicy deals.

The US chastising the Canadians over withdrawing from the Iraqi war does little to win our Northward brethren for Boeing.

[Edited 2005-01-31 02:25:22]
"Are you a pretender... or a thoroughbred?!" - Professor Matt Miller
 
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N328KF
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RE: AC Will Announce 50-jet Order This Year 787/A350

Mon Jan 31, 2005 10:29 am

Flybyguy:

"Better ties?" Guess that whole "number one trading partner" thing is a work of fiction, huh?
When they call the roll in the Senate, the Senators do not know whether to answer 'Present' or 'Not guilty.' -Theodore Roosevelt
 
ac7e7
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RE: AC Will Announce 50-jet Order This Year 787/A350

Mon Jan 31, 2005 10:31 am

AC has better ties with Europe than the States (HRM Elizabeth II is head of state, French is widely spoken as an official language etc.). I suspect that this publicized decision for either the A350 or 787 is a ploy by AC to get juicy deals.

The US chastising the Canadians over withdrawing from the Iraqi war does little to win our Northward brethren for Boeing.


Trust me, the Queen has ZERO influence here. As well, Canada never withdrew from the Iraq war because we never participated. As for the ploy to get juicy deals, well of course! AC may really want, for example the 787, but will play the two manufactuers against each other to get the better deal.

AC may very well go for the A350, but not for the reasons you suggest.

-AC7E7
 
atmx2000
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RE: AC Will Announce 50-jet Order This Year 787/A350

Mon Jan 31, 2005 10:43 am

Canada is a spread out country with a large immigrant population from all over the world. I would think smaller long range jets like the 787 could fit nicely into the AC fleet and help cater to travel plans of Canadians.
ConcordeBoy is a twin supremacist!! He supports quadicide!!
 
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kc135topboom
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RE: AC Will Announce 50-jet Order This Year 787/A350

Mon Jan 31, 2005 10:48 am

Airbus hasn't committed the A-350 to anything but paper, yet. The B-787 is going to fly in a few years, Boeing is committed to it and has , what? about 186 orders for the Dreamliner?

AC has time to wait on Airbus to see if they commit to the A-350. I suspect they are leaning towards the A-350 with hopes of being a kick-off customer and then gets some say in the design.

If Airbus doesn't decide to build the A-350, then AC can still go with the B-787 and hasn't lost any time in getting the production line numbers they need.
 
PPVRA
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RE: AC Will Announce 50-jet Order This Year 787/A350

Mon Jan 31, 2005 10:55 am

Air Canada is already bumping into capacity constraints as it expands its international services, especially to Asia and Latin America.

Though I would love to see AC with 787s, I think A350s are a bit more likely in this case. Mainly due to the greater capacity needed. I mean, Asia isn't a low yield market and ACs loads to GRU, AFAIK, have been up fairly high. Maybe if they fly to GIG... but who knows.

BTW, how are ACs loads to EZE and SCL?

Fingers crossed for the 787!

Cheers,

PPVRA

"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
DfwRevolution
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RE: AC Will Announce 50-jet Order This Year 787/A350

Mon Jan 31, 2005 11:02 am

Ditto, I got to go with the 787 this time, as its kinda like the 757 vs. A321, the 757 is a much better product,

I have to say... that's not the strongest argument in favor of the 787 that I've heard...

I don't know Air Canada's long-term fleet plans so I don't really care to speculate.
 
yhz78
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RE: AC Will Announce 50-jet Order This Year 787/A350

Mon Jan 31, 2005 11:23 am

>>AC has better ties with Europe than the States (HRM Elizabeth II is head of state, French is widely spoken as an official language etc.). I suspect that this publicized decision for either the A350 or 787 is a ploy by AC to get juicy deals.

The US chastising the Canadians over withdrawing from the Iraqi war does little to win our Northward brethren for Boeing.<<

Not to mention that french is barely spoken in a large majority of the country. Yes, it is an official language, but outside of Quebec, New Brunswick and some small pockets in Nova Scotia you'd be hard pressed to hear it at all. You ask any average Canadian and their knowledge of the U.S. vastly outweighs what they could dream to know of Europe. As far as participation in Iraq.....well, we just won't get into that right now.  Smile
Canada Rocks! From the west coast to the best coast!
 
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N328KF
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RE: AC Will Announce 50-jet Order This Year 787/A350

Mon Jan 31, 2005 11:50 am

Yhz78:

And even in parts of Quebec (mainly Montreal) it's possible to get by without speaking French. Certainly Montreal culturally has more in common with Burlington, Vermont than Paris, France.
When they call the roll in the Senate, the Senators do not know whether to answer 'Present' or 'Not guilty.' -Theodore Roosevelt
 
AA737-823
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RE: AC Will Announce 50-jet Order This Year 787/A350

Mon Jan 31, 2005 12:33 pm

Well, I'd love to see 787s in the new livery, but I really expect Airbus to win this one.
 
Xkorpyoh
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RE: AC Will Announce 50-jet Order This Year 787/A350

Mon Jan 31, 2005 12:44 pm

because they are replacing the 767 seems to me they will go with the 787. It is better technology for the long term. Why pick 2nd best? just because they have other Airbus planes?. As already mentioned, commonality is not an issue for such a great number of planes.
 
sebring
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RE: AC Will Announce 50-jet Order This Year 787/A3

Mon Jan 31, 2005 12:50 pm

The Financial Times only got the story half right. The deal will include two aircraft types, not one. With AC having a hard time finding good lift NOW, it's the front end aircraft that is driving the negotiations. I have it on impeccable authority that AC considers both the 787 and the 350 to be suitable aircraft for the backend deal replacing 763s. It's the front end aircraft and the willingness of the winning manufacturer to meet AC on price and on other terms that will decide the deal.

AC wants planes by 2006, and it needs a larger aircraft for routes like Vancouver-Tokyo, Toronto-London, Montreal-Paris, etc. They don't have a plane with over 300 seats now, and they want one.





 
dalecary
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RE: AC Will Announce 50-jet Order This Year 787/A350

Mon Jan 31, 2005 1:01 pm

Sebring,

are we talking 772LR/773ER v 345/346 here???
 
sunrisevalley
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RE: AC Will Announce 50-jet Order This Year 787/A350

Mon Jan 31, 2005 1:07 pm

There is quite a change in dynamics at AC since restructuring. Milton is now Chairman, Monty Brewer ex UA is CEO and the biggest shareholder is a NY based investment group.
AC's present AirBus fleet is mainly A319/A320 and A321 of which they have about 113 in total. They only have modest numbers of the the other types; 8 A330-300; 9 A340-300 and 2 A340-500. Their Boeing fleet is 13 767 -200/ER and 30 767 -300ER. So, for whatever it is worth I don't see Airbus having any sort of a lock on this one.
The operating efficiencies and capital recovery costs will be the clincher, I would say.
 
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solnabo
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RE: AC Will Announce 50-jet Order This Year 787/A350

Mon Jan 31, 2005 1:20 pm


Would love to see AC w A346 and A350 in their fleet.

They ve been married w Boeing too long, time for a divorce IMO  Big thumbs up

Micke/ Suede
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kim777fan
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RE: AC Will Announce 50-jet Order This Year 787/A350

Mon Jan 31, 2005 1:24 pm

Queen Elizabeth II is Canada's Head of State????

When did this happen??
 
atmx2000
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RE: AC Will Announce 50-jet Order This Year 787/A350

Mon Jan 31, 2005 1:31 pm

They ve been married w Boeing too long, time for a divorce IMO

Exactly how can you call an airline that operates a huge fleet of A32Xs and a number of Airbus widebodies married to Boeing? I guess it must be one of those "open" marriages. Either that or Airbus is the bimbo mistress.

Queen Elizabeth II is Canada's Head of State????

Are you aware that Canada was one of those nonrebellious former British colonies?
ConcordeBoy is a twin supremacist!! He supports quadicide!!
 
sebring
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RE: AC Will Announce 50-jet Order This Year 787/A3

Mon Jan 31, 2005 1:32 pm

are we talking 772LR/773ER v 345/346 here???

Even simpler than that. Pick one plane from "Column (A)irbus" and one from "Column (B)oeing".

Air Canada's pilots have yet to agree to terms for what we might call "ultra long haul flying". Nothing AC does not (Toronto to Delhi, Hong kong, etc.) falls into that category of ULH. AC's threshold of interest is more along the lines of "near ultra long flying", probably a max of 15 hours. If it could do Mumbai, maybe JNB, or Vancouver-Sydney nonstop both ways, that would meet most of its next round of expansion needs. It doesn't need an unrestricted Newark-Singapore plane.

As for what will clinch a deal, don't go down the usual path. Read Robert Milton's book about the A330 purchase. Milton was and still is an avowed 777 admirer, and he wasn't president at the time, but he was close to the throne. AC leveraged Airbus for all kinds of considerations over and above the 330s. It got price reductions on undelivered narrowbodies, and great prices on future widebody deliveries. AC's two A340-500s cost $87 million apiece - which is astoundingly cheap. Those planes were priced as part of the 330 contract. In his book, Milton also talks about Boeing being a lot less flexible if you want any kind of consideration. Airbus, on the other hand, has a nuclear pencil sharpener and can do more contortions to get a deal than you see at Cirque du Soleil. So I would say this will go down to the wire and AC will use the fact that both A and B want a deal badly because AC is not American or European and has no financial stake in the manufacture of any of the aircraft like Japanese carriers.





 
Hardkor
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RE: AC Will Announce 50-jet Order This Year 787/A350

Mon Jan 31, 2005 1:38 pm

Queen Elizabeth II is Canada's Head of State????

When did this happen??

It's always been this way. It's a parliamentary system with dual executive, the PM is head of gov't, the Queen is head of Stat (represented by the gov. general purely for ceremonial purposes)

Useless IMO, but that's for another discussion board. Is there any chance AC would be interested in any larger aircraft? Such as the A380 or 747ADV?

Hardkor



 
ac7e7
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RE: AC Will Announce 50-jet Order This Year 787/A350

Mon Jan 31, 2005 1:38 pm

Queen Elizabeth II is Canada's Head of State????

When did this happen??


1867
 
sebring
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RE: AC Will Announce 50-jet Order This Year 787/A350

Mon Jan 31, 2005 1:51 pm

Is there any chance AC would be interested in any larger aircraft? Such as the A380 or 747ADV?


No interest whatsoever. Both are too large
 
JoFMO
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RE: AC Will Announce 50-jet Order This Year 787/A350

Mon Jan 31, 2005 1:52 pm

As far as I remember AC still has at least two A346 on order. They deferred the delivery under their bancrupt protection to around 2010. If they desperately need more/new planes it shouldn't be a problem to get an earlier delivery from Airbus.
I hope that they order some more A346 and A345. They need something bigger than their current A343 and something for new routes to South East Asia, India, Australia and maybe South Africa.
 
YVR99
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RE: AC Will Announce 50-jet Order This Year 787/A350

Mon Jan 31, 2005 1:52 pm

N328KF:

>>Certainly Montreal culturally has more in common with Burlington, Vermont than Paris, France<<

Not sure if you been to all 3 places but I lived in Montreal for four years and I've visited Vermont and Paris a few times each and, suffice it to say, you might want to check out Montreal on St. Jean Baptiste or Bastille Day!

>>Queen Elizabeth II is Canada's Head of State????<<

Yes she is the de facto head of state. She is represented in Ottawa by the Governor General and in the provinces (except Quebec) by Lieutenant Governors. She exercises no actual power and only visits once every few years if she feels so inclined. This set up is the same in all former colonies of the British Empire who remain members of the commonwealth and have not become republics. I.e. unlike the US and Ireland.

A little more on topic, it would be great to see a few more A345s or maybe some A346s in the fleet in 2006 before AC can get some B787s

YVR99
DH8,146,319,320,321,332,333,343,732,733,735,737,738,752,762,763,741,742,744,MD80,DC10
 
ac7e7
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RE: AC Will Announce 50-jet Order This Year 787/A350

Mon Jan 31, 2005 1:59 pm

I think AC will order the A346 for higher density routes and order the 787-8 as the 763 replacement. As for the 762 replacement, I think the A321 has already done this to some point (I know the seat number differences). If I recall, they are slowly being phased out anyway, no?

-AC7E7
 
ktachiya
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RE: AC Will Announce 50-jet Order This Year 787/A350

Mon Jan 31, 2005 2:05 pm

I see a lot of ppl wanting Boeing fleets for them but to think of it logically, I think they will resort to Airbus. To start off with

The A330/340 are the newest orders that they have made in the recent years. The 737-200 from ZIP are gone and more domestic narrow-bodies are operated with the A32x family. And the 747-400 are out of the fleet. If they want fleet commonality or the same manufactuers planes, isn't it logical for them to go to Airbus?

I would love to see the 787, but I just think its unlikely.
Flown on: DC-10-30, B747-200B, B747-300, B747-300SR, B747-400, B747-400D, B767-300, B777-200, B777-200ER, B777-300
 
sebring
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RE: AC Will Announce 50-jet Order This Year 787/A350

Mon Jan 31, 2005 2:07 pm

Actually AC is adding back 762ers, and if you mean they are phasing out 321s, the rumor is only about three leased from AF.

As for splitting the order between two manufacturers, ie. Airbus for the 340, Boeing for the 787, nope. This is winner take all.

 
777ER
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RE: AC Will Announce 50-jet Order This Year 787/A350

Mon Jan 31, 2005 2:09 pm

The order will most likly come down to who can offer the cheapest price. If the CEO does want a mixed A and B fleet then B would most likly get the order. When will all these fleet purchases end?
 
ac7e7
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RE: AC Will Announce 50-jet Order This Year 787/A350

Mon Jan 31, 2005 2:10 pm

The 737-200 and the 747-400 did not have fleet commonality, unlike the A320 and A330.

Again, once a fleet reaches about 35 aircraft commonality is not a significant factor.

I don't know, but I have a feeling AC will go for the 787 rather than A350 for their 767 replacement. I do believe that AC will also order the A346 as well as a couple more A345s.

-AC7E7
 
AeroWesty
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RE: AC Will Announce 50-jet Order This Year 787/A350

Mon Jan 31, 2005 2:11 pm

They ve been married w Boeing too long, time for a divorce IMO

I won't get involved in the A vs. B wars (cause I'd rather fly a Lockheed), but I've actually thought of AC as one of the least "Boeing" of the major carriers in North America. They had few 727s, no 737s I'm aware of except for what they inherited from Canadian, and in years gone by operated large-ish fleets of DC-8s, DC-9s, and L-1011s mainly, rather than alternative models available from Boeing. (Yes, I'm aware they operated a scant handful of 747s over the years, too.) The long-haul 767s are only a fairly recent addition to their fleet, comparatively speaking, most of them arriving post-1995 (though they started taking delivery of some non-ER -200s beginning in 1982).

Queen Elizabeth II is Canada's Head of State?

Think Royal Canadian Mounted Police.  Smile

Cheers.
International Homo of Mystery
 
ac7e7
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RE: AC Will Announce 50-jet Order This Year 787/A350

Mon Jan 31, 2005 2:21 pm

So could we see the possibility of AC replacing their long-haul fleet (A333/343/345) with Boeing 777/787? In other words, one manufactuer, but multiple types?

Sorry, I may not be thinking straight, I'm a little excited....  Big grin

-AC7E7
 
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N328KF
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RE: AC Will Announce 50-jet Order This Year 787/A350

Mon Jan 31, 2005 2:23 pm

They have multiple types already. Who says they won't have multiple types in the future? It's wishful thinking on the part of those who think they're preordained to order one way or the other. In this case, the 7E7 may be the far more compelling choice, but if their near-term aircraft needs are a factor, then that may tip the scales for Airbus.
When they call the roll in the Senate, the Senators do not know whether to answer 'Present' or 'Not guilty.' -Theodore Roosevelt
 
777ER
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RE: AC Will Announce 50-jet Order This Year 787/A350

Mon Jan 31, 2005 2:27 pm

So could we see the possibility of AC replacing their long-haul fleet (A333/343/345) with Boeing 777/787? In other words, one manufactuer, but multiple types? The CEO has stated that he does not want to rely on one manufactuer. So the answer is no.
 
Skydrol
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RE: AC Will Announce 50-jet Order This Year 787/A350

Mon Jan 31, 2005 2:29 pm

Quoted from the Financial Times article:
>>>
Robert Milton, chief executive, said the airline was likely to order either the Boeing 7E7 Dreamliner or the Airbus A-350, each with a capacity of about 250 passengers. The new aircraft will replace an ageing fleet of wide-body Boeing 767s.
<<<

This is an odd statement.

The 787 or A-350 are stated to be 250 seat aircraft.

AC's B-767s have 200-210 seats.

AC's A330s and A340s have 270-280 seats.

It would seem either choice would be closer to the capacity of the A330/A340 than a B-767.

Also, while a few of AC's 767-200s are ±20 years old, most are much newer and would not qualify as "aging"






∙ ---{--« ∙ ----{--« ∙ --{-« ∙ ---{--« ∙ --{--« ∙ --{-« ∙ ----{--« ∙
 
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N328KF
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RE: AC Will Announce 50-jet Order This Year 787/A350

Mon Jan 31, 2005 2:33 pm

Skydrol:

Ever heard of the term "expansion?"
When they call the roll in the Senate, the Senators do not know whether to answer 'Present' or 'Not guilty.' -Theodore Roosevelt
 
ac7e7
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RE: AC Will Announce 50-jet Order This Year 787/A350

Mon Jan 31, 2005 2:34 pm

So could we see the possibility of AC replacing their long-haul fleet (A333/343/345) with Boeing 777/787? In other words, one manufactuer, but multiple types? The CEO has stated that he does not want to rely on one manufactuer. So the answer is no.

I believe Milton is referring to the entire AC mainline fleet relying on one manufactuer.


[Edited 2005-01-31 06:37:57]
 
dakotasport
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RE: AC Will Announce 50-jet Order This Year 787/A350

Mon Jan 31, 2005 2:35 pm

Going with ANYTHING else but the 787 is FOOLISH IMHO! Their 76s have served them incredibly well the past decades and that should give them a good incentive to go out and purchase another very high quality product from Boeing. Wake up bean counters, and buy the 787, even if it may cost a bit more!
 
ViveLeYHZ
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RE: AC Will Announce 50-jet Order This Year 787/A350

Mon Jan 31, 2005 2:40 pm

I think (and hope) AC will go for Boeings this time. The airline needs more ultra-long rage aircrafts ASAP for their Asian routes from YYZ (AC recently announced non-stop flights to Beijing from YYZ). The 777-200 would be ideal for these routes, as well as south pacific/Asian routes from YVR.

AC will also want to replace their aging 767's, and my guess the 7E7 (787) will be a good replacement. If I was a betting person, I would put my money on 15 777-200's and 35 787's.

I personally can't see why AC won't order 15 340-500's from Airbus and 35 787's from Boeing. They recently ordered regional jets from Bombardier and Embraer, with concurrent deliveries. But I am hoping Boeing can give AC and offer they can't refuse on 777's and 787's.

Cheers,
ViveLeYHZ (and long live the Queen)  Smile
 
Skydrol
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RE: AC Will Announce 50-jet Order This Year 787/A350

Mon Jan 31, 2005 2:43 pm

N328KF wrote:
>>>
Skydrol:

Ever heard of the term "expansion?"
<<<

Sure. But all of the routes I have flown on AC are now being served by smaller aircraft than ever before during the last 25 years, so I believe the correct term would be "compression"




LD4



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iowa744fan
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RE: AC Will Announce 50-jet Order This Year 787/A350

Mon Jan 31, 2005 2:43 pm

Sebring,

What is the name of this book? I would be interested in finding it to read. I assume that it is rather recent?

JoFMo,

I was just wondering the same thing about whether or not they still had any 345s/346s on order or if all were cancelled.

Aerowesty,

I agree with you entirely on your comment. I don't think that the AC 747 Classic fleet ever amounted to more than ten aircraft. As for the 744, IIRC, they only ordered 3, all Combis. How many did Canadian have, 8? Still, I agree with you that except for the 727 and 767, they have always tended to go elsewhere...especially to Douglas back in it's heyday. So, I find Solnabo's comment a bit odd since there never has been a very strong tie.
 
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RE: AC Will Announce 50-jet Order This Year 787/A350

Mon Jan 31, 2005 2:44 pm

Dakotasport:

Costs more? On list price only, the 787s are cheaper.
When they call the roll in the Senate, the Senators do not know whether to answer 'Present' or 'Not guilty.' -Theodore Roosevelt

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