AirWillie6475
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A380-old 787-new?

Mon Jan 31, 2005 5:08 pm

In some of other topics I have read that some think that the a380 is just two a345's combined into one and thats it has old technology. And some say that the 787 has innovative technology. As far as technology goes what will be so innovative about the 787 or a380.
 
N79969
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RE: A380-old 787-new?

Mon Jan 31, 2005 5:17 pm

First I think you should have used a less provocative title. The A380 is clearly a brand new airplane and will be equipped with some of latest enhancements and new material technologies. The idea that this airplane is two combined A340-500s is absurd. It is hard to know where to begin on fixing that statement.

Having said that A380 is the cutting edge in evolving airplane technology.

The 787 will be revolutionary in terms of the materials, aircraft power, and manufacturing techniques.

You have a point that is interesting, but really ought to choose your words more carefully. It probably is not too late to fix the title.

Regards
 
777ER
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RE: A380-old 787-new?

Mon Jan 31, 2005 5:34 pm

Well considering that the A380 has been built and the B787 hasn't been built yet, then the B787 will be newer then the A380.
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teva
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RE: A380-old 787-new?

Mon Jan 31, 2005 6:12 pm

Yes, sure, the A380 has only old technologies from ze old Europe  Yeah sure
* Large utilization of composite material in structural parts such as wing box (carbon) and fuselage (glare)
* high pressure hydraulics
* cockpit ergonomy, with the introduction of the track ball

etc....
Teva
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N79969
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RE: A380-old 787-new?

Mon Jan 31, 2005 6:18 pm

Actually the A380's 5,000 psi hydraulic system was developed in the United States under U.S. Department of Defense contract.
 
zvezda
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RE: A380-old 787-new?

Mon Jan 31, 2005 6:29 pm

The A380 is likely to be the last four engine airliner and one of the last to use an aluminium fuselage, bleed-air driven systems, 8000ft pressurization, etc. History is likely to view it along with the A350 as a dinosaur. The B787 breaks a lot of new ground. History seems likely to view it as the first of the second generation of jet airliners.

The assertion that the A380 is just two A340s bolted together is silly. That would have eight engines, not four. Clearly then, the A380 must be two A330s bolted together. Big grin
 
HlywdCatft
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RE: A380-old 787-new?

Mon Jan 31, 2005 11:04 pm

**"The assertion that the A380 is just two A340s bolted together is silly. That would have eight engines, not four. Clearly then, the A380 must be two A330s bolted together."**

If you are talking about an A342 or A343, that could be likely since the engines on the older A340s are quite small. Two of them could fit inside one of the A380s engines.

I believe one of the original plans for the A3XX were to fuse either two A330/40 bodies together or on top of each other before this plan came out.
 
mauriceb
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RE: A380-old 787-new?

Tue Feb 01, 2005 3:46 am

A380 2 A340-500's huh? Right...... so the A380 has 8 engines, blended winglets? owh and if its based on the A340-500, why is it old then? if it was based on the A340-500 it would be a new plane since the A340-500 is new....
 
Udo
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RE: A380-old 787-new?

Tue Feb 01, 2005 5:53 am

The A380 is likely to be the last four engine airliner

I'd really like to see an aircraft of that weight and size category powered by two engines...  Insane


and one of the last to use an aluminium fuselage, bleed-air driven systems, 8000ft pressurization, etc.

But it will still be more modern than all current aircraft types...


History is likely to view it along with the A350 as a dinosaur.

And A320, B737NG, A330/340 and B777 will look like what - amoeba?  Confused


History seems likely to view it as the first of the second generation of jet airliners.

With 20% more efficient compared to the B767, it's not such a revolution. It's a big step forward, but I doubt it will have the impact similar to the B707.


Regards
Udo
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ConcordeBoy
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RE: A380-old 787-new?

Tue Feb 01, 2005 6:15 am

I'd really like to see an aircraft of that weight and size category powered by two engines...

...keep in mind, that's been said many times in the past as well  Big grin
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Udo
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RE: A380-old 787-new?

Tue Feb 01, 2005 6:25 am

...keep in mind, that's been said many times in the past as well

I know, and we have had many discussions about that already. But it would require a real monster engine to replace two A380 engines...much more a monster than the GE90 is today. What about the wing which has to carry that thing? And that wing would have to be very high to take the engine below.
And we know it's already not quite easy to carry a spare GE90 to certain places - what about an engine even bigger, by some 40% or 50%?
Fact is it is impossible to power an A380-sized by two engines today. Another story in 30 years maybe. No reason to call the A380 design ancient or outdated in any way just because it carries four engines.


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Udo
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Sjoerd
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RE: A380-old 787-new?

Tue Feb 01, 2005 6:49 am

I believe the step to the A380 (from A346 or B773) is greater than the step between A380 and B787.

The A380 is the first aircraft to use very large composite parts (for example : finbox (wider than B787 fuselage) and wingbox) constructed in a very similar way (applications of layers that are then cured using heat) as parts of the B787. So if you think that Airbus is behind with the composite technology you're wrong, the real step forward is done already. The wing of the A350 will have a higher percentage of composites than the on of the B787.

The wing of the A380 is also very advanced, it is the only curved (to that extent) wing on a commercial aircraft, giving more lift for a smaller wingspan.

The B787 will have the first large composite fuselage (the larger windows and higher cabin pressure are a consequence of that) and the highest percentage of composites overall and advanced engines compared to current ones with the same thrust.

Sjoerd

http://www.airbus.com/pdf/media/A380Manufacturing.ppt#4

http://www.airbus.com/pdf/media/A380Manufacturing.ppt#6

[Edited 2005-01-31 23:05:52]
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RE: A380-old 787-new?

Tue Feb 01, 2005 6:52 am

Sjoerd:

More by quantity, but not by percentage. Using composites and metals in the using lamination or with composites over a metal frame is a drastically different matter than an aerostructure composed entirely of composites.
When they call the roll in the Senate, the Senators do not know whether to answer 'Present' or 'Not guilty.' -Theodore Roosevelt
 
Sjoerd
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RE: A380-old 787-new?

Tue Feb 01, 2005 7:08 am

These parts of the A380 are made entirely out of composites.

The fuselage is not, that's out of GLARE (consecutive layers of Li-Al alloy and glass fiber).

Sjoerd
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lazybones
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RE: A380-old 787-new?

Tue Feb 01, 2005 7:13 am

Actually the A380's 5,000 psi hydraulic system was developed in the United States under U.S. Department of Defense contract.

And the jet engine was invented by Sir Frank Whittle (UK). Whats your point?

787 is a totally revolutionary airframe, just the fabrication process itself is a jump. Boeing need this to get ahead of the game, where Airbus are kind of feeling their way with composite technology in a more reserved manner. I'm very interested in seeing the 787 once complete, its definitely the way forward.

For some good reading on composites go to www.scaled.com (no introduction required!)

But it has to be said that the true historic revolution in aviation will only occur when we need to replace kerosene.
 
Sjoerd
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RE: A380-old 787-new?

Tue Feb 01, 2005 7:20 am

But it has to be said that the true historic revolution in aviation will only occur when we need to replace kerosene

I totally agree and am very curious to see wether after the B787 and A350 another aircraft is developped that burns kerosene. The B789 (EIS 2012) may very well be the last "classic" aircraft (dinosaur ?).

Sjoerd

[Edited 2005-01-31 23:21:57]
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lehpron
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RE: A380-old 787-new?

Tue Feb 01, 2005 9:02 am

How do you mean to ask?

Technologically, in terms of stingy aviation evolution, they will have arrived at the same time, within 5 years of each other.

But I would suppose the appearance to pax will be different. If Boeing can convince airlines to keep the concept seats in 787, that will have the most dramatic effect; plus them giant slit windows. A380 may be weird for folks who are used to things being the same, the idea of sitting on top and it being about as wide as the bottom -- damn.

Same effect, same technology -- and I am being general, do not go into the bleedless engines hoopla, i don't care and niether do most pax.
The meaning of life is curiosity; we were put on this planet to explore opportunities.
 
lazybones
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RE: A380-old 787-new?

Tue Feb 01, 2005 9:24 am

Guys (Udo, ConcordeBoy)

What you really feel comfortable sitting with 554 other people with just 2 engines! I kinda feel the 777-300 is the biggest i would fly one with just 2 engines. Especially after seeing the pictures of the EK 777 engine failure which occurred at my local airport (that be Melbourne Intl).

I like the Lewis engine index, no more than 175 pax per engine! Otherwise pack parachute! Big grin
 
skymileman
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RE: A380-old 787-new?

Tue Feb 01, 2005 11:24 am

Neither airplane is all that impressive to me. I don't think commercial aviation has done anything impressive since the jet engine was invented. What happened to the good old days when every airplane was a huge technological advancement? The A380 boasts size, the 787 boasts efficiency, so what...
 
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RE: A380-old 787-new?

Tue Feb 01, 2005 11:32 am

Skymileman:

The 787 is not just about efficiency. The amazing thing is what it is made of. We've gone from wood to metal to carbon fiber. What's next?
When they call the roll in the Senate, the Senators do not know whether to answer 'Present' or 'Not guilty.' -Theodore Roosevelt
 
lazybones
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RE: A380-old 787-new?

Tue Feb 01, 2005 11:38 am

Skymileman, I know what you mean. But lets face it, its the result of us all wanting ever cheaper fares and ever more choice. Both 787/A380 follow this principle in one form or another.

Who knows the next leap may well come from space travel, IE get into low earth orbit and back. Crack this and technically you get to any airport on earth in less than 4 hrs! And for a bonus you get an awesome view.

 
skymileman
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RE: A380-old 787-new?

Tue Feb 01, 2005 11:41 am

Lazybones,
I see what you mean about the cheap fares, but from an enthusiasts point of view, it would sure be cool to take pics of something totally new. Space travel would be awesome.
 
zvezda
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RE: A380-old 787-new?

Tue Feb 01, 2005 1:47 pm

GE started development of the GE90 when? About 15 years ago? If Boeing were to ask for a 150,000lb thrust engine to be ready to fly in 2010, it would be ready. We heard all the same arguments against large twins with the B777. The arguments were bogus then and they are equally bogus now.

Anyway, I don't think Boeing will build a double-deck airliner. I think they will replace the B777-300 and B747Adv with the largest circular cross section twin that is practical as a single decker (perhaps with galleys, crew rest, lavs, passenger sleeping bunks, etc. upstairs -- but no passenger seating upstairs). Such an aircraft would need perhaps 130,000 or 135,000lb thrust engines. It is not inconceivable that the GE90 could be further certified to produce such thrust.
 
apollo13
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RE: A380-old 787-new?

Tue Feb 01, 2005 3:55 pm

How big are the A380 engines exactly? Is ther a way to comapre them to anything?
 
Thrust
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RE: A380-old 787-new?

Tue Feb 01, 2005 3:59 pm

I agree that probably the best way to answer the A380 is with a fresh design, a brand new airplane, conceivably a twin. This would allow for a brand new engine design that could get around the GE90's power limits. I could almost promise a twin would cut the A380's career short VERY quickly. But i think that Boeing should probably wait 15 years or so before they introduce it. That way the A380 will have aged and airlines would be looking for something brand new.
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RE: A380-old 787-new?

Tue Feb 01, 2005 9:14 pm

Thrust:

I don't think many people outside of GE knows the power limits. They may very well be able to scale it that high. They've already shown a remarkable ability to scale it, as it is.
When they call the roll in the Senate, the Senators do not know whether to answer 'Present' or 'Not guilty.' -Theodore Roosevelt
 
A350
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RE: A380-old 787-new?

Wed Feb 02, 2005 6:15 am

The A380 is likely to be the last four engine airliner

The A380 carries more pax per engine than the 787. So, why should it be less efficient?

A350
 
AirWillie6475
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RE: A380-old 787-new?

Wed Feb 02, 2005 10:53 am

Thanks for the replies. Most have talked about the technical innovations but does anyone know of the internal innovatoins like the interior lighting in both planes. What will be better about them inside.
 
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RE: A380-old 787-new?

Wed Feb 02, 2005 11:05 am

A350:

Both the A380-800 and 787-9 travel about the same distance. In three class configuration, 550 / 4 = 137.5 for the A380. For the 787-9, it would be 129.5. So it's pretty close. If the 787 is cheaper to operate, then that may tip the advantage.
When they call the roll in the Senate, the Senators do not know whether to answer 'Present' or 'Not guilty.' -Theodore Roosevelt
 
stirling
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RE: A380-old 787-new?

Wed Feb 02, 2005 11:11 am

Zvezda said:

The B787 breaks a lot of new ground. History seems likely to view it as the first of the second generation of jet airliners

Then Lazybones said:

But it has to be said that the true historic revolution in aviation will only occur when we need to replace kerosene.

Up to now, this is the most insightful statement made thus far on the subject. The technological shift will occur only when we move away from propulsion systems dependant on fossil fuels.
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MD-90
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RE: A380-old 787-new?

Wed Feb 02, 2005 11:40 am

The most revolutionary composite aircraft ever built thus far (including the 787) was the Rutan Aircraft Factory Vari-Eze. A glassbackwards foambuilt with a canard that could be built in a person's garage from plans.

THAT was a tremendous achievement in efficiency and creative design. The whole composites thing has been done already, see the disaster that was the FAA's insistence on an overweight Beech Starship. The composite fuselage has been done before too, see the Raytheon Premier 1 (with metal wings).

And multiple decks have been utilized for a long, long time.
 
N79969
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RE: A380-old 787-new?

Wed Feb 02, 2005 11:44 am

Lazybones,

See reply from Teva and my post will then make sense.
 
A350
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RE: A380-old 787-new?

Thu Feb 03, 2005 12:42 am

A remark to our twin fans:

I do know that the development is going away from the quads and the future will be dominated by twins. However, this does not mean that quads are outworn. Please consider that:

1) the bypass ration of the engines is continuously growing in order to reduce noise and fuel burn. However, this means that you need a bigger engine for a given thrust or reduce thrust for a given engine size. It's no coincidence that the 787 and A380 engines have the same fan size (115 inches) as the 777 engines (at least as those from RR and PW, I know the GE90s are 125 inches), but far weaker. For a twin engined A380, you would need 160 inch fans, if you want to keep the bypass ratio.

2) maintenance of a large engine is more expensive than mx of a smaller engine, so it's not a natural law that quads are more mx intensive.

Over a given size, quads a the better solution. I would estimate the breakeven approx. at the 773ER/A346 size. The A343 is below the breakeven, so the successor, the A359, will be a twin.

A350
 
astuteman
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RE: A380-old 787-new?

Thu Feb 03, 2005 2:34 am

To answer the original question, there is no doubt in my mind that the 787 is more innovative that the A380. The definition of innovative that I use in this context is "the application of an existing technology in a radically new way".

Airbus have taken a progressive approach to developing new materials applications (e.g. GLARE, CFC centre wingbox - which is a pretty impressive application on a wing that size, more advanced aluminium alloys etc), and AT THE TIME OF ITS DESIGN the A380 probably (I'm not an expert..) moved the game on beyond existing designs. Airbus have certainly done a lot of work on modular assembly which pleases the production engineer in me. But there is little application of technology in a radically new way

The 787, on the other hand, being designed some 4 or so years later, takes a radical approach, making each section of the fuse in a SINGLE PIECE carbon-fibre layup, which has to be the ultimate in modular construction - PHENOMENAL!

I think engines deserve a mention. Again, I'm no expert, but I understand traditional High-bypass turbofans to have bypass ratios of 5 to 6.

The engines on the A380 (Trent 900 + GP7200) have driven this up to 8.5 - 9 in the search for efficiency. I understand this to be the same for the GE90 -115 (someone correct me?)

Trent 1000 and GEnx for 787/A350 have moved the game to 11 - 11.5. As A350 said, it's interesting that most of these engines are roughly the same size (GE90 a bit bigger), with the high BPR engines being less powerful.

I'm a huge fan of the A380, and I think it's great that Airbus had the balls to build it. However, as a Production Engineer, there's no question that the 787 approach is a much more holistic, and elegant solution, that takes REAL balls.

I'm not nearly knowledgeable enough to be able to quantify the benefits of a complete CFC fuse vs CFC major components, GLARE, and high-tech Al-Li alloys. Is there anyone out there who can comment on CFC vs high tech alloys/GLARE etc? I'd be really interested.

Astuteman