727LOVER
Posts: 6594
Joined: Tue Oct 09, 2001 12:22 am

De-incing Equipment At Southern USA Airports

Sat Feb 05, 2005 4:36 am

OK,

I thinks it safe to say that airports like ORD, CLE, LGA, BOS have de-icing equipment and airports like MIA, SJU, MCO, LAX do not.

But I am wondering about those in-between airports in the south and across the sunbelt.

PHX, IAH, MSY, JAX, PNS TLH, SAV, BTR....do these places have de-icing equipment? Didn't Houston and New Orleans have snow on Xmas day?

Any answers?  Smile/happy/getting dizzy
I feel woozy....what did you put in that Pudding Pop?
 
ssides
Posts: 3248
Joined: Fri Feb 09, 2001 12:57 am

RE: De-incing Equipment At Southern USA Airports

Sat Feb 05, 2005 4:43 am

Yes, most of these airports have de-icing equipment. Even if an aircraft is taking off from a warmer destination, it can encounter ice en route.

I've flown in and out of IAH, DFW, AUS, and other southern airports several times. De-icing exists here, but the operation is not as large or significant as, say BOS or DCA. Usually there are fewer de-icing trucks, and airlines with smaller presences (e.g. UA at AUS) often contract their de-icing with other airlines.

Here's a photo of de-icing at AUS:


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Jean

"Lose" is not spelled with two o's!!!!
 
FLY777UAL
Posts: 4830
Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 3:49 am

RE: De-incing Equipment At Southern USA Airports

Sat Feb 05, 2005 4:53 am

We took about a 45 minute delay once in SFO before a flight to DEN aboard a 777 (autumn time) waiting to be de-iced because the fuel in the wing had super cooled, forming a thin layer of frost (or something to that effect).

F L Y 7 7 7 U A L
 
isitsafenow
Posts: 3413
Joined: Sun Feb 01, 2004 9:22 am

RE: De-incing Equipment At Southern USA Airports

Sat Feb 05, 2005 4:55 am

In 1993, I was sitting in a TWA DC 9-50 at the gate in RSW when the captain came on the P A and announced we were going to get the leading edge of the wings deiced before take-off and why. He went on to say the temperature was 82 degrees.
Can you guess why the deicing took place?
safe
If two people agree on EVERYTHING, then one isn't necessary.
 
keindy
Posts: 27
Joined: Fri Dec 31, 2004 1:57 am

RE: De-incing Equipment At Southern USA Airports

Sat Feb 05, 2005 4:57 am

This question has to do with de-icing but not along the same line...not working in the airline industry or for an airport, I do not know what the procedures are. Example, here @ IND planes get de-iced at the gate and then have the longest taxi in the world it seems for take-off. However, then @ DTW you leave the gate and go to a "de-icing pad" very close to the runway right before take-off, this seems much safer to me than what is done @ IND. What are the rules in regards to de-icing? Is it determined by the pilot or airport or the weather? Thanks in advance for any responses.
 
juanchie
Posts: 188
Joined: Thu Jan 29, 2004 7:17 am

RE: De-incing Equipment At Southern USA Airports

Sat Feb 05, 2005 5:41 am

Well in JAX I have only encountered one deicing. It can get pretty chilly in NE Florida so there are some deicers there. I believe USAirways has atleast one and the rest are operated by the FBO (signature). Although Delta is by far the largest airline in JAX, I dont think they have Deicing equipment.


juanchie
God, forgive me for who I am, and help me be the man I want to be.
 
FLAIRPORT
Posts: 3863
Joined: Thu Oct 26, 2000 10:46 am

RE: De-incing Equipment At Southern USA Airports

Sat Feb 05, 2005 5:50 am

I know ATL has deicing, and in fact they had an issue a few years ago where
1) They ran out of fluid
2) the fluid ran into a local river.

Not sure how many they have.
As far as I know FLL does not have deicers and neither does Corpis Chirsti nor Harlingen
NEXT FLIGHT: FLL-ATL-HPN on FL
 
User avatar
ramprat74
Posts: 1322
Joined: Wed Dec 17, 2003 6:01 pm

RE: De-incing Equipment At Southern USA Airports

Sat Feb 05, 2005 5:58 am

This question has to do with de-icing but not along the same line...not working in the airline industry or for an airport, I do not know what the procedures are. Example, here @ IND planes get de-iced at the gate and then have the longest taxi in the world it seems for take-off. However, then @ DTW you leave the gate and go to a "de-icing pad" very close to the runway right before take-off, this seems much safer to me than what is done @ IND. What are the rules in regards to de-icing? Is it determined by the pilot or airport or the weather? Thanks in advance for any responses

Its all up to the airport. Some airports have drains right at the gate. Some airports like DTW and DEN have deicing pads. I rather have it shot on a pad. I don't like working around deicing fluid. It flies all over. It taste pretty good though. Big grin
 
ntspelich
Posts: 740
Joined: Tue Aug 05, 2003 2:35 am

RE: De-incing Equipment At Southern USA Airports

Sat Feb 05, 2005 6:02 am

This question has to do with de-icing but not along the same line...not working in the airline industry or for an airport, I do not know what the procedures are. Example, here @ IND planes get de-iced at the gate and then have the longest taxi in the world it seems for take-off. However, then @ DTW you leave the gate and go to a "de-icing pad" very close to the runway right before take-off, this seems much safer to me than what is done @ IND. What are the rules in regards to de-icing? Is it determined by the pilot or airport or the weather? Thanks in advance for any responses.

Just haven gotten out of the ice bucket this morning, I'll try to tell you what I know.

Here, at BWI, WN has an ice pad. For major de-icing events, we do our spraying here. Four lanes, two trucks per lane; pretty much like a giant car wash. Planes taxi down off of 15R, radio our ice coordinator, get assigned a lane, an iceman instructs them of what to do (turn off packs, etc) and the start time/mixture info. They get sprayed an away they go. For minor events, or the morning de-frosting, we do our spraying at the gates. Then some airports, like PIT, have built in de-icing towers, where there are stationary towers with booms and buckets on them that the planes simply pull in between. If I recall correctly, only US usees these though.

Basically it comes down to this: it's the captain's decision. While the airline , airport or FAA (?) may declare a "de-icing event," even if there is not an official one, the pilot has the ultimate say. I guess even if it were 80 and sunny out, if the pilot wanted to be de-iced or anti-iced they would get it.

The FAA has a "clean plane" policy. Basically all of the control surfaces must be free of ice, snow or other accumulation which could negatively effect the planes performance. At BWI, the MAA, which owns/operates the airport will call all of the tenants when they are declaring an official event, as mentioned above.

Then it gets a bit trickier. There is de-icing (Type I glycol mixed with water) and then anti-icing (Type IV glycol, 100%). If an a/c is going to have to hold for take-off, we'll de-ice the plane and then anti-ice it. If there's no wait or it's just the morning defrost, we just de-ice. For each a/c the start time, end time, solution mixture and temperature of the solution is recorded and held for records. The FAA also spot checks on this. Depending on the weather conditions, Type IV anti-icing glycol can remain effective for over 8 hours.

So basically, you're right on all three accounts. It is determined by the airport, pilot and the weather. It's just how you respond during the event that changes.

And yes, Type I glycol does taste like Dr. Pepper. Only really warm. (It's heated between 160 and 180 F)

Sometimes if an a/c just needs to be lightly defrosted, like our 737-700s, which tend to get condensation relatively easily on the wings from fueling, which can quickly turn to frost, they'll just be sprayed with hot water. I had this done in LAS one night. It was something to see our rampers out there not quite sure of how to use the bucket to their advantage. I guess it's something that they don't have to deal with that often, though. Smile/happy/getting dizzy

NTS

[Edited 2005-02-04 22:05:23]

[Edited 2005-02-04 22:09:28]
United 717 heavy, you're facing the wrong way. Any chance you can powerback to get off of my deice pad?
 
keindy
Posts: 27
Joined: Fri Dec 31, 2004 1:57 am

RE: De-incing Equipment At Southern USA Airports

Sat Feb 05, 2005 6:15 am

NTS,

Very informative. Always wondered what the procedure was.

Thank you very much.
 
Bobster2
Posts: 1523
Joined: Mon Jan 17, 2005 3:04 am

RE: De-incing Equipment At Southern USA Airports

Sat Feb 05, 2005 6:28 am

Can somebody please explain why the wings get cold enough to form ice or condensation during fueling?

Thank you.
"I tell you this, no eternal reward will forgive us now for wasting the dawn." Jim Morrison
 
ntspelich
Posts: 740
Joined: Tue Aug 05, 2003 2:35 am

RE: De-incing Equipment At Southern USA Airports

Sat Feb 05, 2005 7:08 am

Keindy, no problem. Most of us in the industry, at least on these forums, love to talk about what we do.  Big grin

The way that I understand it is that it has to do with the way that the in-wing fuel tanks are on the NGs. I'm not in mx nor am I Mr. Wizard, so take that as my layman's reasoning. The folks over in Tech/Ops would most likely be able to give you a much better answer.

Think of it as being the same as a glass of ice water sweating on a hot day. The fuel going into the wing is colder than the air outside of the wing, causing condensation to form on the skin of the a/c.

NTS
United 717 heavy, you're facing the wrong way. Any chance you can powerback to get off of my deice pad?
 
Tom in NO
Posts: 6725
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 1999 10:10 am

RE: De-incing Equipment At Southern USA Airports

Sat Feb 05, 2005 7:13 am

Here at MSY, I believe CO, AA, US, and possibly DL have deicing trucks. Needless to say, they get very little use. Christmas Day was one example. The airlines here had their own limited supply of fluid that day, I believe AA had the last supply that day, and had other airlines' lined up at their door. Lots of delays that day.

Aircraft here are deiced near the intersection of taxiways Echo and Sierra. We have a small and very inefficient vacuum truck that scoops up the remains of the fluid.

Numerous airports up north have remote deicing pads complete with built-in recycling systems that collect the fluid, clean it up, and store it for reuse.

Tom at MSY
"The criminal ineptitude makes you furious"-Bruce Springsteen, after seeing firsthand the damage from Hurricane Katrina
 
Clipper002
Posts: 659
Joined: Wed Aug 11, 2004 4:24 am

RE: De-incing Equipment At Southern USA Airports

Sat Feb 05, 2005 10:29 am

Let me please set the record straight. Aircraft are not de-iced during the summer months and arrivals are never de-iced. If frost builds up on the lower edge of the wing during refueling, you merely clean it off with water if in fact it is too thick. De-icing trucks and Glycol are very expensive and are not used during the non-winter seasons. In fact, when the winter season is declared over, all of the de-icing equipment is thoroughly washed and stored for the season. For someone to state that an aircraft coming from a cold climate or descending through cold air needs de-icing is entirely wrong. I only ask that if you are not sure of what you are posting, then hold off until someone who is sure can post for you.

Rgds,
Ed
Ed
 
ncflyer
Posts: 504
Joined: Tue Sep 05, 2000 7:03 pm

RE: De-incing Equipment At Southern USA Airports

Sat Feb 05, 2005 10:39 am

I one time remember reading it costs several thousand dollars to deice a 737. Is that true? I also heard planes need to be deiced for take off; as they are flying the leading edge of the wing stays warm off. But I very distinctly remember being on a Comair turboprop into CVG (I forget what model, maybe a Saab 340), and the aircraft made a very loud metal on metal type sound, and the flight attendant came on immediately and said that was the sound of the deicing equipment on the plane doing it's thing. Those last two points seem to be in contradiction, but maybe it's turboprop vs. jet.

Anyone who knows more than me can help?
 
ntspelich
Posts: 740
Joined: Tue Aug 05, 2003 2:35 am

RE: De-incing Equipment At Southern USA Airports

Sat Feb 05, 2005 10:43 am

Ed,

I'm not sure if you're responding to my post, but nonetheless I'll clarify what I said. For us (WN) the captain has the ultimate decision to make if he feels that the a/c needs to be deiced. I didn't say that we have sprayed them in the summer, but while higly improbable, if I pilot were to request it we would do it. Safety first, even if it's a delay, inconvience or spending some money.

You're correct, arrivals are never de-iced, but our RONs are usually anti-iced rather quickly after they're terminated for the evening when the weather dictates it. I believe that right now, glycol is more expensive than Jet A, so while there's a need to ensure that the plane is clean, there's also the fiscal responsibility to be as frugal as possible with the fluid.
United 717 heavy, you're facing the wrong way. Any chance you can powerback to get off of my deice pad?
 
isitsafenow
Posts: 3413
Joined: Sun Feb 01, 2004 9:22 am

RE: De-incing Equipment At Southern USA Airports

Sat Feb 05, 2005 10:55 am

Clipper002...I didn't say they used a truck at RSW. Glycol was sprayed on the leading edge slats of a DC 9 50 at RSW . I went to my log and the date was Dec 2, 1993 and the plane was N415EA and like I posted, the temp, per the captain, was 82 degrees.
What was used was a tank on wheels that resembled a very large fire extinguisher. It was about three feet long and a hose with a spray devise and nozzle. It was an deiceing compound and not water....unless the captain was wrong...I don't think he was because I was sitting by the window left side right on the wings leading edge. The compound looked red in color. I'm just passing on what I saw and heard 'cause I was there.

safe
If two people agree on EVERYTHING, then one isn't necessary.
 
Bobster2
Posts: 1523
Joined: Mon Jan 17, 2005 3:04 am

RE: De-incing Equipment At Southern USA Airports

Sat Feb 05, 2005 11:27 am

safe,

In your previous post you said "Can you guess why the deicing took place?" The answer is no, I can't guess, unless the answer is that there was ice on the wings but I don't think that's what you meant.  Smile I can understand why there might be condensaton if the fuel temperature happens to be below the dew point of the air, but not ice when the air temp is in the eighties.
"I tell you this, no eternal reward will forgive us now for wasting the dawn." Jim Morrison
 
isitsafenow
Posts: 3413
Joined: Sun Feb 01, 2004 9:22 am

RE: De-incing Equipment At Southern USA Airports

Sat Feb 05, 2005 11:36 am

As was explained to the pax and curious flight attendants, a "frost" was on the leading edge cause by, as hinted in above posts, cold fuel AND the humidity and air temp. The Captain went on the explain that under certain weather conditions this is not that uncommon in the south to spray the deice solution on the "front of the wings". I am using his terms as best remembered.
Sorry I didn't tape the announcement. If I would have had a small recorder, I would have done so. Its an announcement pax do not hear everyday, every flight.
safe
If two people agree on EVERYTHING, then one isn't necessary.
 
keindy
Posts: 27
Joined: Fri Dec 31, 2004 1:57 am

RE: De-incing Equipment At Southern USA Airports

Sat Feb 05, 2005 12:11 pm

Another question(s) I thought of, are the current de-icing procedures in place due to the Air Florida accident in 1982 in Washington D.C. or have these procedures been in place for a long time and that was just a tragic accident. Please forgive my lack of knowledge in regards to the Air Florida incident.
 
CORULEZ05
Posts: 1250
Joined: Sat Feb 05, 2005 10:39 am

RE: De-incing Equipment At Southern USA Airports

Sat Feb 05, 2005 12:20 pm

As we all saw in ATL, it is VERY important to have de-icers in the south just like in the north.......
Fly jetBlue today!!!!!!!
 
Bobster2
Posts: 1523
Joined: Mon Jan 17, 2005 3:04 am

RE: De-incing Equipment At Southern USA Airports

Sat Feb 05, 2005 1:10 pm

I found some additional information about the formation of frost on wings in warm climates. It results from the phenomenon called "cold soaking" of the fuel tanks and wings during flight. Here's a link that explains it in some detail (scroll down a bit to find the section on cold soaking):
http://www.tc.gc.ca/civilaviation/general/exams/guides/tp10647/Frozen.htm

"I tell you this, no eternal reward will forgive us now for wasting the dawn." Jim Morrison
 
717-200
Posts: 564
Joined: Mon Oct 09, 2000 1:29 am

RE: De-incing Equipment At Southern USA Airports

Sat Feb 05, 2005 1:59 pm

Here at RDU some airlines such as Southwest and Delta have their own
deicing fluid and trucks while at AirTran we rely on the Southern Jet FBO
as our primary deicing contractor and UPS for our secondary/backup needs.
72S 733 734 735 73G 738 742 752 763 E190 M82 M83
 
INTENSS
Posts: 310
Joined: Mon Aug 30, 2004 9:25 am

RE: De-incing Equipment At Southern USA Airports

Sat Feb 05, 2005 2:09 pm

You an see a few of the whords of de-icing trucks in ATL at the bottom of this shot I took from the Rennaisance:

http://www.jetphotos.net/viewphoto.php?id=391314

Geographically speaking, ATL is "in between"...but it certainly ices up here quite often.

-Rich

[Edited 2005-02-05 06:11:18]
 
Clipper002
Posts: 659
Joined: Wed Aug 11, 2004 4:24 am

RE: De-incing Equipment At Southern USA Airports

Sun Feb 06, 2005 10:30 am

Isitsafenow and Ntspelich,

Nowhere did I mention anything derogatory about your posts. Ntspelich you had a very informative post with facts stated as they are. I don't doubt for a minute that Isitsafenow didn't have to "de-ice" a DC-9 based on the Captains instructions. I respect the both of you and your opinions, however, I have never heard of "de-icing" and a/c in the summer time. As I stated, all you have to do is spray the area with hot water and the problem is solved. De-icing equipment and glycol are very, very expensive and are not meant to be used year round. In order for glycol to be effective it has to be heated to 160 - 180 degreesF. I can't think of too many stations that keep a steady supply of heated glycol and a de-icier available just in case "the captain" wants to be de-iced. I think as you go on in your careers in aviation, you'll soon discover the "the Captain" does not dictate procedures. This was the case back in the 70's when Pan Am had the crash of the month club going with the "Skygods" making command decisions only to loose theirs and everyone else's life. That's where CRM derived from. That said, I believe that 99% of our airline Captains are more than qualified and display a very good sense of CRM. It's that 1% that I worry about. This is only my opinion and is in no way intended to dispel any other posters feelings or opinions.

Have a great day,
Ed
Ed
 
Clipper002
Posts: 659
Joined: Wed Aug 11, 2004 4:24 am

RE: De-incing Equipment At Southern USA Airports

Sun Feb 06, 2005 10:58 am

Yes, the Air Florida crash went a long way towards determining today's de-ice procedures. Back then, there were no "holdover" times in place at all. As for stations running out of glycol, this very same thing occurred in 1993 when the DC area was hit with 3 consecutive ice storms. Neither BWI, DCA or IAD had any glycol at all for several days. During the 3rd episode, I was the Director of Stations for ACA and had all of the 6 p.m. bank launched and then cancelled the remainder of the operation for that day. We ended up getting a significant snowfall on top of the ice that night, but when the day after came, MWAA had completely plowed our entire ramp area right down to the pavement. Because we already had a/c and crews at all of the outstations, we were able to resume service far ahead of UA. This same thinking is in force today where just recently DL cancelled hundreds of fligh the day before an impending ice storm here in ATL. The money saved on de-icing alone practically pays for any lost revenue. Don't forget, those passengers that didn't fly on their original flights were booked on subsequent flights a few days later.

Ed
Ed
 
Zone1
Posts: 894
Joined: Sun Jan 09, 2005 4:47 am

RE: De-incing Equipment At Southern USA Airports

Sun Feb 06, 2005 1:59 pm

Then some airports, like PIT, have built in de-icing towers, where there are stationary towers with booms and buckets on them that the planes simply pull in between. If I recall correctly, only US uses these though.

Wow! I bet those can de ice the planes quickly.

On the price front, deicing liquid can cost between $5-$8 per gallon depending on concentration. And as with other chemicals that airlines need, Dow Chemical just announced a price increase for their deicing liquids. So yes it does cost quite a bit to deice a plane.
/// U N I T E D

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: ba319-131, BartSimpson, blueflyer, fun2fly, georgiabill, LA704, moo, Mumrik, petteri, reality, SESGDL, tpaewr, Tvilum, TWA772LR and 279 guests