hawk44
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The Crash Of Flight 191 On Tv

Sun Feb 06, 2005 11:43 am

Just to let everybody know the story of the crash of AA flight 191 is on History Channel right now till 10:30 eastern time.


Hawk44
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F9Animal
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RE: The Crash Of Flight 191 On Tv

Sun Feb 06, 2005 11:57 am

It wont be on till 9PM on the West Coast! I cant wait to see it! The previews looked awesome. There is also something coming on after it. I cant remember what it is called, but it is about plane wrecks. Good night for TV. Americas Most Wanted will have to wait till next week~! LOL!
I Am A Different Animal!!
 
hawk44
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RE: The Crash Of Flight 191 On Tv

Sun Feb 06, 2005 12:00 pm

It wont be on till 9PM on the West Coast! I cant wait to see it! The previews looked awesome. There is also something coming on after it. I cant remember what it is called, but it is about plane wrecks. Good night for TV. Americas Most Wanted will have to wait till next week~! LOL!

Broken Wings is on right after the Flight 191 program which so far is very good. They are using nice computer generated recreations. I thought this was perfect timing with all the trash talking about NW DC-10's earlier today.

Hawk44
Never under estimate the power of US
 
airgeek12
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RE: The Crash Of Flight 191 On Tv

Sun Feb 06, 2005 12:11 pm

Awesome..thanks for the tip/info. *tunes in*

I also watched the TWA flight 800 investigation thing on the History channel. It was very good, and inspring for me to read the book on it; First Strike, which has so far turned out to be a great book.

geek
 
F9Animal
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RE: The Crash Of Flight 191 On Tv

Sun Feb 06, 2005 12:14 pm

Agree with you on the TWA 800. It was very interesting, and I enjoyed the minute by minute account of the accident. History should keep pumping aviation related stuff for us!
I Am A Different Animal!!
 
NIKV69
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RE: The Crash Of Flight 191 On Tv

Sun Feb 06, 2005 12:55 pm

Hawk44,

There has been too much trash talking about the DC10. I liked the DC10. It is a shame that it got a bad rap. Mostly due to crashes like this. Which was totally AA fault for doing a repair so badly in an attempt to save money. They caused the engine and pylon to seperate from the wing. I will be watching!
Hey that guy with the private jet can bail us out! Why? HE CAN AFFORD IT!
 
isitsafenow
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RE: The Crash Of Flight 191 On Tv

Sun Feb 06, 2005 1:06 pm

That show was tell it like it is....It's the third time I saw it and it rivets me to the television set every time. Like I posted a few weeks ago, the probable cause was the loss rapid of hydraulics which caused the leading edge slats to retract which caused the left wing to lose lift and ...the rest is history. the separation of the engine triggered the event but as stated in the show, did not cause the plane to come down. Engines as designed to "break away", per the broadcast....and my antiquated library
safe
If two people agree on EVERYTHING, then one isn't necessary.
 
F9Animal
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RE: The Crash Of Flight 191 On Tv

Sun Feb 06, 2005 1:12 pm

I love the DC10. I flew them over 20 times, and I enjoyed them every time. First Class was great in them too. My first DC10 ride was on American. It was my first wide body too. I remember watching the takeoff on the movie screen. What a thrilling experience!

I also met Al Haynes, the captain on UA 232. What a story he has. He offers free talks on the crash. If you get the chance, he is one to listen to. It was about an hour, and by the time he finished his presentation, I was ready to salute him. Great speaker! He justs asks for a donation to Little League.

http://www.aviationspeakers.com/
I Am A Different Animal!!
 
NIKV69
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RE: The Crash Of Flight 191 On Tv

Sun Feb 06, 2005 1:16 pm

Isitsafenow,

Are you kidding me? Why did the plane lose hydraulic fluid? Because the engine and pylon ripped off a piece of wing! Yes engines are designed to break away but not when the plane is rotating at full power with the slats helping to increase lift and not while taking a piece of wing with it. This due to the fact the engine and pylon went up and over the wing and simply did not just break away. AA caused those people to die and nothing else.
Hey that guy with the private jet can bail us out! Why? HE CAN AFFORD IT!
 
hawk44
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RE: The Crash Of Flight 191 On Tv

Sun Feb 06, 2005 1:28 pm

I have not flown on a DC10 however when I was younger I did get to fly on a MD-11 with DL into ATL can't remember where I was coming from either LGA or EWR but I do remember the MD-11 was heading west after the stop in ATL.

I wish NW still flew the DC10 domestically. Are they the only US carrier that currently flys the DC10 besides FedEx?

Hawk44
Never under estimate the power of US
 
isitsafenow
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RE: The Crash Of Flight 191 On Tv

Sun Feb 06, 2005 1:31 pm

No, Im not kidding you. I said the Probable Cause....understand the term and why the FAA uses it in investigation reports.

F9ANIMAL.....I met Captain Haynes in Chicago in the early 90's. What a guy! He and I talked about his career and the planes he flew with United. He was very likeable. Hey come to think of it, he asked me to commit a few bucks to Little League, too...how bout that! Heck, being a former coach, I couldn't resist him.
safe
If two people agree on EVERYTHING, then one isn't necessary.
 
NIKV69
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RE: The Crash Of Flight 191 On Tv

Sun Feb 06, 2005 1:37 pm

Isitsasfenow,

I understand the term, it is a total copout shared by the NTSB and FAA. I am glad the metallurgist found the stress on the bolts that connected the pylon to the wing was caused by an improper repair. It is a shame AA caused MD to suffer the way they did after all 10s were grounded and the fallout to follow. A total shame.
Hey that guy with the private jet can bail us out! Why? HE CAN AFFORD IT!
 
isitsafenow
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RE: The Crash Of Flight 191 On Tv

Sun Feb 06, 2005 1:51 pm

NIV69 I agree with ya....That Incident should have NEVER happen...like the Alaska Air thing off the Calif. coast..That's another one that really bothers me.

The airlines also got beat up pretty good($$$$$$$) when the DC 10's were parked. All those pax and nothing to put them on.....
keep smilin...
safe
If two people agree on EVERYTHING, then one isn't necessary.
 
EMBQA
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RE: The Crash Of Flight 191 On Tv

Sun Feb 06, 2005 2:04 pm

Actually the loss of the engine and retraction of the LH Slats didn't cause the crash either, If you remember from that same show, the NTSB stated that the route cause was the incorrect speed setting and climb out angle after the loss of the engine as set in the AA DC-10 procedures. Had the crew maintained a standard speed rate and climb angle they would have been ok. Their speed was too low and with the loss of lift from the retracted LH slat, that wing stalled and they crashed.
"It's not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog"
 
NIKV69
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RE: The Crash Of Flight 191 On Tv

Sun Feb 06, 2005 2:21 pm

Isitsafenow,

Amen. I despise AA for many reasons and this is sure one of them. They were totally at fault and should have been ashamed of themselves. I believe I have this documentary on tape, if I remember correctly one of the AA mechanics committed suicide after the investigation revealed it was maintenance that caused the crash. At least one person had some honor.

Let us again remember the victims. This air disaster is still the deadliest in US history.

R.I.P.

P.S. I love the fact that AA wouldn't fly that one victim to the scene and made him pay. Way to go AA!!  Big thumbs up
Hey that guy with the private jet can bail us out! Why? HE CAN AFFORD IT!
 
COAMiG29
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RE: The Crash Of Flight 191 On Tv

Sun Feb 06, 2005 2:29 pm

thanks alot for the info its 1129 and im in texas so i missed the show however i have my ultamate tv set to record it at 1200, ill prb watch it then.

--COAMiG29--
If Continental had a hub at DFW with nonstop flights I would always fly them, unfortunantely good things take time.
 
COAMiG29
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RE: The Crash Of Flight 191 On Tv

Sun Feb 06, 2005 2:33 pm

Username: NIKV69
From United States, joined Jan 2004, 1973 posts, RR: 13
Reply: 14

Posted Sun Feb 6 2005 06:21:33 UTC+1 and read 25 times:
Isitsafenow,

Amen. I despise AA for many reasons and this is sure one of them. They were totally at fault and should have been ashamed of themselves. I believe I have this documentary on tape, if I remember correctly one of the AA mechanics committed suicide after the investigation revealed it was maintenance that caused the crash. At least one person had some honor.

Let us again remember the victims. This air disaster is still the deadliest in US history.

R.I.P.

P.S. I love the fact that AA wouldn't fly that one victim to the scene and made him pay. Way to go AA!!

IT IS NOT HONORABLE to kill yourself for making a mistake. i know that AA was at fault but if they knew that the quicker engine replacement would lead to this problem i assure you they never would have permitted it. as terrible as it is sometimes safety rules have to be written in blood. i understand your anger but please be reasonable

--COAMiG29--



If Continental had a hub at DFW with nonstop flights I would always fly them, unfortunantely good things take time.
 
AeroWesty
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RE: The Crash Of Flight 191 On Tv

Sun Feb 06, 2005 2:50 pm

All those pax and nothing to put them on.....

Safe, just a general knowledge question, was it all that bad in general terms? I recall a friend was flying SFO-IAD a week after the grounding on UA and was concerned, but they ended up using a DC-8 stretch, while I followed a week later to the east on TWA, with one empty seat on the 707 going and only about a 3/4 load out of JFK on the return with an L-1011. They were the first transcon flights for either of us alone, and I remember our thinking he stood a good chance of getting rescheduled, but didn't.

I wish NW still flew the DC10 domestically.

Unless Hawaii renounced statehood and seceded from the Union, they still do.  Smile
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NIKV69
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RE: The Crash Of Flight 191 On Tv

Sun Feb 06, 2005 3:02 pm

COAMiG29,

It is thinking like yours which leads to people dying like the ones of flight 191. You can't just play stupid when it comes to this. AA knew that MD's procedure for an engine change was crystal clear. To remove the engine from the pylon and then the pylon from the wing. Yet good ol' AA decided to get a forklift and cut corners by trying to remove the whole thing. Well they left the forklift bearing the weight of the engine and pylon. Which it couldn't handle. Thus the plyon sustains a crack as a result. After a number of cycles the crack gets worse till it gives way during rotation of flight 191. The rest is history. You see MD gives a maintenance recommendation for a reason.

Yes it is honorable. Very honorable. This person couldn't live with himself after he realized he was responsible for a huge loss of life. Much like the mechanic who did the improper repair on the JAL 747 rear bulkhead who also killed himself.

With commercial aviation pilots and mechanics hold thousands of lives in the palms of their hands. Saying AA made a mistake is not good enough pal. You have to think of human life, not the bottom line.

[Edited 2005-02-06 07:05:38]
Hey that guy with the private jet can bail us out! Why? HE CAN AFFORD IT!
 
USairways16BWI
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RE: The Crash Of Flight 191 On Tv

Sun Feb 06, 2005 3:12 pm

i guess its a re-run cuz its just after 1am here eastern time and im watching it now. i gotta say that picture that a witness took of the DC-10 on its side was VERY graphic and scary. i cant begin to imagine what the pax were experiencing at that moment. they knew what was going on in the last few moments. RIP
 
NIKV69
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RE: The Crash Of Flight 191 On Tv

Sun Feb 06, 2005 3:20 pm

That picture happens to be probably the most famous in commercial aviation history. I remember it was on the front page of every paper. I think the News had it across the whole page if memory serves me right. That had to be a horrible 30 seconds or so once that engine and pylon separated from the wing.

R.I.P.
Hey that guy with the private jet can bail us out! Why? HE CAN AFFORD IT!
 
yhmfan
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RE: The Crash Of Flight 191 On Tv

Sun Feb 06, 2005 3:30 pm

A little off topic but here is a bit of trivia:
There was also a flight 191 for Delta (L1011) that crashed in DFW in August 1985.
Not that I am superstitious or anything but I think I will avoid any other flight 191's !!!!
If at first you don't succeed, skydiving is not for you
 
COAMiG29
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RE: The Crash Of Flight 191 On Tv

Sun Feb 06, 2005 3:36 pm

since hindsight is 20/20 it is easy to see how easily this crash could have been avoided. however, the AA and CO mechanics (yes co also did this maintence procedure) did npt know that cutting corners like this one would lead to a crash. if they knew they never would have cut corners.

maybe to you it is honorable to kill yourself for realizing that you made a mistake but it would be much better to be responsible about it and help prevent accidents in the future. this discussion is now clearly a matter of opinion which does not need to be discoussed in the forum. please feel free to e-mail me at matt@mfpltd.com i am open to your point of view but i do not consider aa to have intentionaly killed the pax.

RIP all those involved with AAL-191

--COAMiG29--
If Continental had a hub at DFW with nonstop flights I would always fly them, unfortunantely good things take time.
 
COAMiG29
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RE: The Crash Of Flight 191 On Tv

Sun Feb 06, 2005 3:41 pm

i would also like to add that the plane could have been saved if there was a backup stickshaker, if the f/o knew they were stalling he could have pulled out but by the time he found out what was happening it was too late.
If Continental had a hub at DFW with nonstop flights I would always fly them, unfortunantely good things take time.
 
NIKV69
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RE: The Crash Of Flight 191 On Tv

Sun Feb 06, 2005 3:57 pm

COAMiG29,

Save your email. I have no time to discuss this with someone who would condone doing improper repair to save money at the expense of countless lives only to say that AA didn't know this would happen. You thinking is scary. MD was against this repair and AA knew it. Yet they did it anyway and not only killed those people on the plane but MD along with it. I know CO used the same method to replace the engine and they are lucky they didn't suffer the same fate.

As for the mechanic who committed suicide staying alive to help prevent further accidents? LOL

He could have done that. By doing the repair properly the first time!!

And please don't try to save AA anymore with this stick shaker argument. I don't think there is a pilot in the world who could have saved that aircraft. In a very short period of time those pilots suffered a catastrophic engine failure and structure damage, loss of hydraulics and instrument operation. With the weight they were carrying there was no chance of saving the AC. The fault lies with AA. Nothing else.
Hey that guy with the private jet can bail us out! Why? HE CAN AFFORD IT!
 
SA006
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RE: The Crash Of Flight 191 On Tv

Sun Feb 06, 2005 10:58 pm

Any ideas what time this will be on GMT?

-SA006
Proudly South African
 
EMBQA
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RE: The Crash Of Flight 191 On Tv

Sun Feb 06, 2005 11:14 pm

Yet good ol' AA decided to get a forklift and cut corners by trying to remove the whole thing.

...and so did: United, Western and Continental and several others all of which where found to have cracks.
"It's not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog"
 
richie87
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RE: The Crash Of Flight 191 On Tv

Sun Feb 06, 2005 11:53 pm

I saw the Flight 191 docu on History last night... it was pretty good, thorough, and made the facts of the crash very understandable. It was also rather shocking to realize that, prior to the legal settlements, AA made a huge profit on the crash vis a vis "insurance settlement" and seemed to pocket about 25 million $ USD from it. "Inadvertant conversion of aircraft" is how they phrase it. Anyway... that's how the documentary presented it.

I know the first few years of DC-10 op's had various problems; the Turkish airlines crash where explosive decompression collapsed the floor, causing failure of most control and hydraulic lines, and it seems that the concept of "redundancy" failed more than once because ALL the hydraulic lines were placed close together or in vulnerable locations.

I also recall another AA flight with a DC-10 near Windsor ( north-central US? ) where a door blew off and the decompression NEARLY caused a crash. Excellent flying skills were the only thing that prevented that one... using varied engine thrust for some manner of control and steerage.... I guess much was learned from those accidents. I flew on the DC-10 a couple times within the US, once to Hawaii, and on an MD-11 ( which I really liked ) to the Far East.

The "Broken Wings" show was also good... "aviation archeology" and some really fascinating tales, so it was certainly a night for the History Channel !
 
F9Animal
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RE: The Crash Of Flight 191 On Tv

Mon Feb 07, 2005 12:41 am

How about that poor guy that lost his mom and dad in the 1950's on AA flight number 1 that crashed into Flushing Bay in NY. AA screwed him back then, and even forced him to buy a ticket to fly out to the crash site. Then his brother dies on flight 191, and AA sends him a letter telling him they would take care of it and not to get an attorney. He said the letter was almost identical as the one he got after his parents died. He said he got screwed once by AA, and got an attorney for the 191 incident.

What are the odds of having 2 seperate incidents, and the same airline. I would imagine he does not fly either. I certainly wouldnt.

Sad too that the Copilots Yoke did not have a stick shaker. If he knew he was stalling, he would have been able to apply more power, lower the nose, and bring the plane back. Why was the stick shaker optional for just the Captains yoke then?




Speaking of the 191 in DFW, is there a memorial anywhere near the old DL crash site?
I Am A Different Animal!!
 
OPNLguy
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RE: The Crash Of Flight 191 On Tv

Mon Feb 07, 2005 1:02 am

>>>With commercial aviation pilots and mechanics hold thousands of lives in the palms of their hands. Saying AA made a mistake is not good enough pal. You have to think of human life, not the bottom line.

What will it take to satisfy you, taking them all out and shooting them, or would you prefer to beat them all to death with your 9-iron?  Insane

>>>I despise AA for many reasons and this is sure one of them.

Well, yeah, that's pretty clear, but it doesn't make it any more reasonable, nor does it prove that AA did their engine change procedure with malace aforethought. You act as if someone said "let's change the engine this other way and if a subsequent accident occurs and kills everyone that'll be their tough luck."


>>>I don't think there is a pilot in the world who could have saved that aircraft. In a very short period of time those pilots suffered a catastrophic engine failure and structure damage, loss of hydraulics and instrument operation. With the weight they were carrying there was no chance of saving the AC.

I don't have any DC-10 stick time myself for independent verification, but when the FAA/NTSB guy on the program says they could have flown out of it (had they not reduced their airspeed) I'll defer to his expertise. If they had flown out, dumping fuel, and sending the F/E back to assess damage and the ramifications thereof certainly might have occured, much in the same way that the United 232 crew had some time to troubleshoot things. We'll never know for sure...

ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
qqflyboy
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RE: The Crash Of Flight 191 On Tv

Mon Feb 07, 2005 1:05 am

Hmmm... I read this post thinking I would find info about the show and a general discussion about the crash. Some forget that accidents happen, as sad as they are, but we learn from them and hopefully never repeat them. I don't think any airline sets out to kill people, and I hardly think killing yourself is an admiral thing to do. That's a true cop out. I'm not a Bible thumper, but I know this wouldn't be the repentice asked for, oh, and killing yourself is against the law. Sad, really, I like Dr. Kevorkian. If I remember correctly, back in the early 80s MD would have been DC... right? What's all this with MD's procedures? And if the forklift was so frowned upon, why did nearly all the US operators of the type use that technique at one point?
The views expressed are mine alone and do not necessarily reflect my employer’s views.
 
NIKV69
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RE: The Crash Of Flight 191 On Tv

Mon Feb 07, 2005 2:18 am

OPNLguy,

I never said anything about killing anyone, I said guy who took his own life did the honorable thing. You can't sit there and say AA didn't know the crack could form hence it's ok. When an airplane manufacturer tells you not to do something they do it for SAFETY.

SAFETY = In aviation, if a plane or part of plane fails during take off, flight or landing. PEOPLE DIE. So please adhere to the people who built the planes advice when servicing it.

They were not fixing cars here, they were fixing pax jets. Saying they didn't know is bullshit, MD told them not to do it that way.

This stick shaker argument is so lame and pure spectulation on the FAA and NTSB's part for PR. It seems nobody wanted to say AA was at fault here and as a result MD went down the tubes for no good reason.

QQflyboy,

MD is short for McDonnell Douglas, which was the company that made the DC10.

[Edited 2005-02-06 18:23:46]
Hey that guy with the private jet can bail us out! Why? HE CAN AFFORD IT!
 
isitsafenow
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RE: The Crash Of Flight 191 On Tv

Mon Feb 07, 2005 2:19 am

QQ..having knowledge of forktrucks(I have three in my plant) the AA procedure at Tulsa was workable even though it was a short cut. The problem was the shiftchange with the engine and rack on the trucks hydraulic forks in a RAISED position. Anyone who works on or drives the lifttruck(folktruck)know you do not keep the folks up when the truck is idle, let alone up with weight on them. Two reason why you don't..
ONE..safety..keep the folks on the ground when truck is not is use
TWO..if folks are up over a period of time, they will sink just a tab and more than a tad with weight on them.
Thats what happened at Tulsa. The lifts was up just a little so the pylon could be unattached. Then came shift change at the exact same time the engine was being removed. The folks were up with weight on them and then dropped a fraction of an inch, enough to crack a mount. Over the next two months of take-off and landings(jars to the plane) the crack intensified and we know the final result.
safe
If two people agree on EVERYTHING, then one isn't necessary.
 
EMBQA
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RE: The Crash Of Flight 191 On Tv

Mon Feb 07, 2005 2:31 am

NIKV69-

I find it funny that your trying to sound like an expert on aircraft maintenance, when the closest thing you've done to maintenance on an aircraft was to push the recline button on your seat so you could take a nap.

This stick shaker argument is so lame and pure spectulation on the FAA and NTSB's part for PR.

..and just to let you know, that sanario was put into a flight simulator, and every crew that flew it, flew out of the event under the new guide lines for loss of engine on TO. Yes, they knew it was coming.. but that is what training is for.

[Edited 2005-02-06 18:37:57]
"It's not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog"
 
NIKV69
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RE: The Crash Of Flight 191 On Tv

Mon Feb 07, 2005 2:44 am

Isitsafenow,

No, the forklift was not workable and totally dangerous. Even the crane from overhead that I believe CO used was not a safe alternative. This is why MD told everyone who flew the DC10. Take the engine off the pylon and then when the pylon was not bearing any weight take the pylon off the wing. How much more easier can it be? It was impossible to insure that the engine and pylon assembly would be perfectly aligned at all times while the bolts were removed and replaced. Forklift or whatever. This is why people died that day.
Hey that guy with the private jet can bail us out! Why? HE CAN AFFORD IT!
 
isitsafenow
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RE: The Crash Of Flight 191 On Tv

Mon Feb 07, 2005 2:48 am

United used the crane, per TV show.
If two people agree on EVERYTHING, then one isn't necessary.
 
NIKV69
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RE: The Crash Of Flight 191 On Tv

Mon Feb 07, 2005 2:50 am

EMBQA,

My dad was a mechanic for EAL for 20 years so I am not totally ignorant to this topic and you don't have to be an expert to see that AA screwed up royally here and are you really going to compare a flight simulator to the real thing? Hence the name "Simulator" at best it can only simulate the real thing. Not duplicate it.
Hey that guy with the private jet can bail us out! Why? HE CAN AFFORD IT!
 
Cactus739
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RE: The Crash Of Flight 191 On Tv

Mon Feb 07, 2005 3:02 am

NIKV69......

Sorry to disagree, but doing the "honorable thing" would have been stepping up to face the music for what happened. Killing oneself is hardly the honorable way to go. Either way that's neither here nor there, its a moot point. May he R.I.P.

The overall tone of your posts above (and I don't think I'm the only one that is reading them as such) is that American knew it was going to kill people. That's not true. Yes they did it to save time, and time is money, but do you honestly think they would have done it if they'd known the potential for death? Yes MDD told them not to, but did they send them a memo with "people will die" stamped across it?

Why are you so quick to put down the stick shaker comments? Isn't that a tool to help pilots? Wouldn't that have told the first officer about a stall that he might have had the opportunity to get out of? And your comment that you don't think there's a pilot that could have gotten them out of that situation.... well, not sure what to say to that. The FAA/NTSB seem to think so and I have a hunch that they've got a wee bit more experience in these matters that you do my friend. Admittedly hindsight is 20/20 though.

You can't fix stupid.... - Ron White
 
OPNLguy
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RE: The Crash Of Flight 191 On Tv

Mon Feb 07, 2005 3:17 am

Cactus739,

Given the obvious emotionalism demonstrated in his posts, I don't think that anything you or I or EMBQA or anyone else can say to him is going to be sufficent to get him to consider another possible point of view. I mean, he's entitled to his opinion, but that doesn't necessarily mean it's rooted in reality.

I'm tickled pink that his Dad was an EAL mechanic, but that doesn't make him one, nor does it address other operational disciplines other than MX (Flight Ops, ATC, etc.) that are involved.

Save your breath...  Big grin
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
Cactus739
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RE: The Crash Of Flight 191 On Tv

Mon Feb 07, 2005 3:22 am

OPNL...
I know. I was working on that reply for a while (keep getting dragged away at work).

Sometimes you just wish you could type "get your head out of your a$$" in some of these threads ya know?

 Smile
You can't fix stupid.... - Ron White
 
F9Animal
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RE: The Crash Of Flight 191 On Tv

Mon Feb 07, 2005 3:42 am

The stick shaker was optional. MD offered it on just the captains side, and they offered it on both the First Officers and Captains side. The one on AA that horrible day was just on the captains side.

They said when the engine came off, it disrupted the power on the captains side, resulting in a power failure only on his side. The FO who was flying had everything except for the stick shaker. I could not imagine how busy they were in a sudden. First the captain was probably in shock from the power failure, and neither had a clue the engine completley fell off. Then came the control problem. Then I would imagine tons of warning lights, and a procedure they had to follow during an emergency.

I have doubts they even knew they were stalling, and if they did recognize the stall it may have been too late. I think the CVR ended when the electrical system failed. I cant imagine what went through their minds.

I found it interesting that no changes were made to the hydraulic system after the accident investigation was finished. They decided not to change it because of the doubts of it ever happening again. If they had changed the hydraulic setup, could that have saved UA 232? Just makes you wonder.

I am not an expert, but I can compare it to driving a car.

Getting on the on ramp, doing 60mph. Suddenly you get a tire blowout. While dealing with that, your hood flies up and you cant see what is happening. Then your power steering fails. Wow, they had their hands full.
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isitsafenow
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RE: The Crash Of Flight 191 On Tv

Mon Feb 07, 2005 3:45 am

F9...and when the MD 11 was designed, take a wild guess how the hydraulic lines were engineered on that plane?
safe
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NIKV69
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RE: The Crash Of Flight 191 On Tv

Mon Feb 07, 2005 3:57 am

You guys are funny, I did not say AA killed anyone. Please stick to the facts, and the facts are that AA went against the company's guidelines in making an engine change. Ok. this is fact, not your view or my view but fact. By trying to save money they damaged their AC in a way that caused the death of a whole lot of people. This is fact. Not opinion. To sit there and say "well some guy saved the AC on a flight simulator" Or that the FAA said he could have saved the AC. "Could of" ?? My mom "Could of" been my father if she had a dick, the odds of that plane being saved were very low at best and all this hindsight is ridiculous. Any statement that starts with the word "If" have no revelence here. Stick to the facts and the facts are AA screwed up. It is true that the DC10 was desingned to fly on the two other engines, this doesn't guarantee that it can be done after a catastrophic engine and structure failure during rotation. So many other factors come into it and this pilot did not have the time to recover once the hydraulic fluid bled out and the slat retracted stalling the left wing. Give me a break. As for the FAA/NTSB they are government employees and will never have the power to tell the truth, they deal in probable cause, which is a PR term if I ever have heard one. MD got totally screwed here because the government wouldn't hold AA accountable for this one.
Hey that guy with the private jet can bail us out! Why? HE CAN AFFORD IT!
 
Accidentally
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RE: The Crash Of Flight 191 On Tv

Mon Feb 07, 2005 4:50 am

You kind of seem to believe American is the one and only airline that would ever think of altering maintenance procedures to save time, to be safer, etc... In reality, they all do, today, even your airline of choice does...and it does catch up sometimes.

Now, NOBODY here is claiming AA's technique didn't cause that accident. It did, and they get to pay exactly what our government and media says they're going to pay. The argument is over. Don't fly them, tell your friends how much they suck and that's all you can do about it, and I bet it's driving you absolutely MAD.

Folks here are arguing that American knowingly MURDERED those people. You make it sound as if AA knew it was absolutely going to kill people, yet decided to line their pockets instead, and it's simply not true.

Now, the powers that be have decided it was a series of flaws that caused the crash, and that's that. It wasn't the last time the DC10s vulnerable placement of hydraulic lines helped a few crashes be, nor the last time American's technique was found to be at fault.
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A332
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RE: The Crash Of Flight 191 On Tv

Mon Feb 07, 2005 5:00 am

Considering this incident happened over 25 years ago, is it really necessary to get all worked up about it? It was a terrible tragedy, but we can't forever dwell on the mistakes of the past... time to get over it and move on.

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airtran737
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RE: The Crash Of Flight 191 On Tv

Mon Feb 07, 2005 5:02 am

Can anyone tell me what role Joe Leonard played in the role of 191? His nickname around the industry is Forklift Joe, and as an AirTran employee I have always wondered what his exact role was. Thanks.
Nice Trip Report!!! Great Pics, thanks for posting!!!! B747Forever
 
PSA53
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RE: The Crash Of Flight 191 On Tv

Mon Feb 07, 2005 7:12 am

A great plane, downed by the media splash
of a crash.American,Air New Zealand
and Western crashes not the fault of the aircraft.
I forget the guys name on the show.But he said it
well.People cared more for the short term headlines.
Not the overall final details.

Tell me what aircraft planemaker,airline
company,that they haven't cut corners on
every "new" model because of delivery timing.
What corners were cut to meet airline
expectations on the A380?


Tuesday's Off! Do not disturb.
 
NIKV69
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RE: The Crash Of Flight 191 On Tv

Mon Feb 07, 2005 7:39 am

Accidentally,

Have you been reading this thread? I know that other carriers used the same practice and I never said AA knew this would kill people, where do you come up with this?

We are talking about AA Flt 191. ONLY not CO or Western or anyone else.

They decided to circumvent MD to save maintenance costs and do the repair improperly, not such an usual practice but one that caused a stress fracture in the pylon that got worse after the plane had x number of cycles and finally failed after strain was put on the pylon during a full power roll and rotation. I know AA didn't think this would kill people cause they wouldn't have done it if they did. There negligence lies in not heeding MD's recommendation in engine swaps. This action caused the death of all on board 191. Do you follow?

Do you know about the JAL 747? Same scenario, a mechanic repaired the rear bulkhead knowing that the rivets and pattern he was using was not correct according to specifications, and what happened? After a few cycles the bulkhead failed and everyone on board died when the plane crashed into a mountain, OH WAIT!! I guess you are all going to say he could have flown the plane and landed safely right? That mechanic also did the honorable thing and killed himself. There is a reason these people have made the choice of suicide, GUILT. Guilt that they could not live with and rightly so.
Hey that guy with the private jet can bail us out! Why? HE CAN AFFORD IT!
 
ANNOYEDFA
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RE: The Crash Of Flight 191 On Tv

Mon Feb 07, 2005 7:48 am

NIKV69: Um actually if you trace back to all the deadly accidents with the DC-10 it was McDonald Douglas going cheap on the jet plain and simple. I already watched and read the reports and if the F/O had a stick shaker to notify him the jet was stalling it could of been a different turn out. I have also talked to several pilots about this insident. I have never been on a DC-10 or MD-11 and never will they are junk. The MD-11 statically had the largest death rate with passengers and to think not many were built. Also the procedure used to do an engine change was also used by Continental and United and they were all found to have cracks in the pylon. MCD Never notified the airlines it was a improper procedure. Excellent flying skills by many other pilots are the only thing that saved the Death Cruiser and More Death 2 from many more fatal accidents! Thank You......
"TWA... One Mission, Yours."
 
qqflyboy
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RE: The Crash Of Flight 191 On Tv

Mon Feb 07, 2005 8:14 am

Perhaps I was too subtle before. Since we're trying to be more accurate here, it would be more accurate to refer to DC's procedures, rather than MD's procedures in the case of 191. The "M" in the MD wasn't a part of the equation when 191 went down.

I don't know what ax a certain someone on this board has to grind, but give me a break, killing yourself is hardly the answer when things go wrong. Do me a favor, the next time you make a mistake, why don't you off yourself? Then we can compliment you for how honorable you are. Sounds ridiculous, right? That's because it is. People in aviation, especially mechanics and pilots, know what's at stake. They are smart people. In the case of JAL 123, the rear pressure bulkhead was damaged by a tail strike. Why not blame the pilot who hit the tail on the ground, causing a repair to be necessary, for killing 520 people? Because it's stupid, it gets us nowhere. And since you are into accuracy and all, not everyone on board JAL 123 was killed. Four survived.

It has become apparent that emotions have turned this thread into flame bait, and we know any knowledge to be gained is quickly over washed by over emotional statements. I feel like I am watching an episode of the O'Reilly Factor... Fair and balanced, right? Whatever.
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