EMB195ER
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JJ Flights To LIM And NYC

Thu Feb 10, 2005 9:16 pm

Hey guys!

An internal source at JJ told me that the flight to LIM is not in the budget of her departament for this year. As well the flight to NYC, which was removed from the budget last year, was not include this year again.

Have you guys already heard something about it?

Hugs,

EMB195ER
 
hardiwv
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RE: JJ Flights To LIM And NYC

Thu Feb 10, 2005 9:28 pm

TAM is so conservative....the take ages to make a decision...the expansion of their international network is so slow...in the meanwhile, GOL will expand and other foreign carriers keep growing in Brazil!

TAM is a top quality airline, but they need to change their Board!

 
EMB195ER
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RE: JJ Flights To LIM And NYC

Thu Feb 10, 2005 10:50 pm

Hardi,


Como foi o carnaval? Tudo bem?  Smile/happy/getting dizzy

I got disappointed when my friend told me that about LIM and NYC. What are they waiting for?

I have the impression they want to start a flight today and in the next month already having it profitable, what is impossible in this business.

Hugs,

EMB195ER
 
JJMNGR
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RE: JJ Flights To LIM And NYC

Thu Feb 10, 2005 11:02 pm

What happened is that JJ could not run 10 or more budgets for 2005. One running alone with no code-share; another continuing code-share with RG; another if RG collapse; another if VASP collapse, and so forth...

So it was decided to run a 2005 budged considering same conditions of 2004 and in 2004 LIM and NYC were not included.

Things changes in Brazil all the time...

1) Code-Share is officially dead and countdown running.
2) VASP is not closed (like Transbrasil) but is not operating.
3) VARIG running bad, bad, bad, but still alive.

Today in the news, there is a note stating that Government changed the bankruptcy law and it includes airlines. For those who don´t know, till now an airlines could not go bankruptcy.....
So this scenario might help RG and VP....maybe TR...nobody knows.....

So, will all this unpredictable scenario...the forecast for 2005 was similar as 2004, which does not mean TAMll not look for these opportunities.

One of the 04 A332 flying for Ethyhad (PT-MVB) will return on March for a D- check and will enter back in service on JJ routes. Some 04 A320 are comming and in OCT a brand new A332 (the 10th in the fleet) is confirmed .

Let´s wait and see.

Cheers.
 
hardiwv
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RE: JJ Flights To LIM And NYC

Thu Feb 10, 2005 11:23 pm

So, will all this unpredictable scenario...the forecast for 2005 was similar as 2004, which does not mean TAM will not look for these opportunities

But others are looking for opportunities faster than TAM.

GOL is a classical example. GOL's CEO got a full-page report yesterday on the Financial Times, which states that "GOL is already one of the best-run and most profitable airlines in the world". GOL has only four years.

http://news.ft.com/cms/s/0384c918-7a41-11d9-9b93-00000e2511c8.html

Why does TAM have to wait for everybody's reaction? Why does TAM have to always work under a stable scenario? Why cant TAM take a more pro-active stance, such as GOL, or other major carriers such as Emirates or LAN?

If TAM were more agressive Varig would not be flying today, or its internationa network would be minimal. Is TAM waiting for Varig to stop flying so as to expand?

TAM need to change its Board, hire a professional team. GOL's Board is an example to be followed. GOL has one of the best Board in the private industry in Brazil.

What is TAM waiting for? Okay, maybe TAM is waiting for Varig to get healthy and VP to fly again...too late.

 
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OzarkD9S
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RE: JJ Flights To LIM And NYC

Fri Feb 11, 2005 12:54 am

Maybe TAM doesn't want to end up like TransBrasil and VASP. Nothing wrong with taking a conservative approach in the airline industry, especially Brazil, where currency devaluations seem to happen every couple of years.
Next up: STL-OAK-RNO-LAS-ICT-STL
 
EMB195ER
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RE: JJ Flights To LIM And NYC

Fri Feb 11, 2005 4:17 am

OzarkD9S,

I particularly believe that JJ is being to much conservative. They are always worried about competition and, in my point of view, there isn't a single profitable destination without competition in the world.

They should believe more in their product. Look their two international routes:

MIA - competing with RG, United, and AA. JJ product is good enough to support a second daily flight with a possible third daily flight coming in the future. Conclusion: JJ is doing better then some competitors.

CDG - competing with AF and RG. Again JJ product is good enough to support the introduction of a second flight which will become daily as soon as a the Bilateral agreement Brazil-France is expanded.

Based on the two examples above, we can conclude that TAM is able to face competition in a very efficient way. Of course in both routes they had AF and AA support at the beginning. However, I think that nowadays they are known enough to fly by themselves to new destinations.

Perhaps if JJ had decided to lose money during sometime in the route GRU-FRA-ZRH, today they would be making money with this flight.

Hugs,

EMB195ER

 
EddieDude
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RE: JJ Flights To LIM And NYC

Fri Feb 11, 2005 4:26 am

EMB195ER, I though UA had stopped serving Brazil from MIA.
Next flights: MEX-LAX AM 738, LAX-PVG DL 77L, SHA-PEK CA 789, PEK-PVG CA A332, PVG-ORD MU 77W, ORD-MEX AM 738
 
EMB195ER
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RE: JJ Flights To LIM And NYC

Fri Feb 11, 2005 4:29 am

Eddie,

I think you are right!!! Sorry my mistake...  Innocent

EMB195ER
 
hardiwv
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RE: JJ Flights To LIM And NYC

Fri Feb 11, 2005 4:57 am

I though UA had stopped serving Brazil from MIA.

UA serves Brazil with daily flights from IAD and ORD.


EMB195ER:

Very good point! I agree with you. TAM has proven extremely competitive on routes with intense competition.

If TAM had remained on the route GRU-FRA-ZRH I'm sure it would be making money out of this route nowadays - and maybe LX would have dropped its flight to GRU, and JJ would have kept all the Swiss-Brazil market for itself!

It looks like TAM's management is too cautious, too slow, too conservative, too short-sighted, always waiting for the government, waiting for the competition, waiting for the ideal market conditions.

It's amazing that AFTER SO MANY YEARS TAM only serves so few international market, and only EZE, ASU and SCL in LatAM.

TAM's Fidelidade is another problem. Honestly, it looks a mess...the decision to drop the codeshare with AF was a disaster, putting off a major international parter.

TAM, what's the problem with you?
 
PPVRA
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RE: JJ Flights To LIM And NYC

Fri Feb 11, 2005 6:24 am

I doubt JJ could have done very well in FRA/ZRH. Especailly now that they ended the codeshare with AF.

LH would have pulled their muscles, in cooperation with RG this time, just like they did with RG in MUC a few years ago. JJ could not have done well in FRA without an alliance or a codeshare partner, and their decision to leave FRA was, IMO, a wise one. Maybe they could codeshare with Deutsche BA or someone else...

I do think JJ should have started service to LIS a long time ago. Now that TP is joining STAR, it's another good chunk of the market JJ lost...

We'll se what happens.

Cheers,

PPVRA

"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
hardiwv
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RE: JJ Flights To LIM And NYC

Fri Feb 11, 2005 6:59 am

I doubt JJ could have done very well in FRA/ZRH. Especailly now that they ended the codeshare with AF.

Indeed, TAM should have never dropped its codeshare with AF.

JJ could not have done well in FRA without an alliance or a codeshare partner

You are correct. Maybe JJ should have operated GRU-ZRH nonstop daily instead. How do you think SA serves ZRH and CDG without codeshare?

JJ should have joined OW or Sky. In this way it could operate in markets such as MXP/FCO, AMS in addition to CDG (Sky) or LHR and MAD (OW), and kick RG out of these destinations. It could also expand to other destinations in the US.

My only hope now is that RG gets a major investor and goes back to normal. Of course, then it will be too late for TAM, and it will have missed a golden opportunity to become Brazil's flag carrier.

Abracos,
 
Avianca
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RE: JJ Flights To LIM And NYC

Fri Feb 11, 2005 7:11 am

JJ should reinstall a service to fra. with good conections to other brazil citys and in special to argentina (EZE) they easy could fill up a 4/7 A330-200 flight to FRA or even a daily flight.

German is big enough and with a rail and fly offer as a lot of airlines do it in germany, they can fill up the planes without a problem.

More problematic is the cargosituation on the gru market from germany/europe. Rates droped dramatically last 2 years and yes they are still better than the northbound rates from brazil to europe.
Rest of Brazilian market is still healty, but only for direkt flights (A-Service).d

ok we will see if JJ will reenter ther german market with a direct flight, because still in the moment JJ is the chepest contractor on the german / brazil and argentinian market via CDG.

saludos
Avianca
Colombia es el Mundo Y el Mundo es Colombia
 
EMB195ER
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RE: JJ Flights To LIM And NYC

Fri Feb 11, 2005 8:23 pm

Guys,

I do unterstand that JJ philosophy is making money, but sometimes you have to lose some money first for then start getting some revenue.

In my point of view, there are three destinations in Europe that everyone can make money if a good product is offered. These destinations are: LHR, CDG, and FRA.

LHR, for instance, would be a good deal for JJ. VS is considering flying to Brazil, at least, we have seen some rumors lately. Therefore, I think this is a perfect moment for JJ start a flight to London in codeshare with VS (although VS doesn't have an intra-european network, it could be a good partner for TAM).

Hugs,

EMB195ER
 
hardiwv
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RE: JJ Flights To LIM And NYC

Fri Feb 11, 2005 8:33 pm

EMB195ER:

In my point of view, there are three destinations in Europe that everyone can make money if a good product is offered. These destinations are: LHR, CDG and FRA.

Without a partner you cannot fly to these destinations. JJ only managed to establish iteself in CDG because of onward connection provided by AF, and in MIA because of AA (I read somewhere that 60% of JJ traffic to MIA and CDG are connecting onwards with AF/AA).

LHR: Brazil is the only country in LatAm with nonstop flights to LHR (two daily flights GRU-LHR with BA and RG). If JJ wants to fly to LHR it needs a partner: BA. JJ cannot fly to LHR alone, even because it wont even get the landing slots;
CDG: As I said, JJ is successful in CDG because of AF;
FRA: JJ cannot make money in this market. This is RG/LH territory, JJ has no chance. JJ should go fly ZRH nonstop instead.

If JJ wants to expand it needs to join either OW or Sky.

Rgs,
 
EMB195ER
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RE: JJ Flights To LIM And NYC

Fri Feb 11, 2005 9:04 pm

Hardi,

Bom dia!!

Once I read a Brazilian businessman statement where he said:

"I don't want to be the first one in anything, but the best second one!!!"

Perhaps this is TAM objective, don't you think so?

Hugs,

EMB195ER
 
Avianca
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RE: JJ Flights To LIM And NYC

Sat Feb 12, 2005 4:13 am

>FRA: JJ cannot make money in this market. This is RG/LH territory, JJ has no chance. JJ should go fly ZRH nonstop instead.>

I know that ZRH has a big Brazilian cumunity but, ZRH has enough with the LX flights to GRU, no way JJ can fill up there the flights much more easyer from Frankfurt....

regards
Avianca
Colombia es el Mundo Y el Mundo es Colombia
 
hardiwv
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RE: JJ Flights To LIM And NYC

Sat Feb 12, 2005 5:44 am

I know that ZRH has a big Brazilian cumunity but, ZRH has enough with the LX flights to GRU, no way JJ can fill up there the flights much more easyer from Frankfurt....

ZRH: 5 x week nonstop flights to Brazil operated by LX with the A346.

FRA: 28 x week nonstop flights to Brazil [14 RG flights, MD-11s, and 14 LH flights, B747 and A346]. As of July/05 36 x week nonstop flight to Brazil, with 21 RG flights].

FRA is RG and LH territory there is NO room for any other player - NO CHANCE!

ZRH is a difference story. There is market potential for more flights, and Switzerland has huge business with Brazil (farmaceutical and banking).

If JJ had persistance, it could have kicked LX out of the ZRH-GRU market, since LX is in very bad shape. JJ had a missed opportunity when it decided to stop its flights to ZRH.

Rgs,


[Edited 2005-02-11 21:47:23]
 
Rafabozzolla
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RE: JJ Flights To LIM And NYC

Sat Feb 12, 2005 6:27 am

Hardi,

Where does this 3rd flight come from, aren't you confusing with GRU-MUC? The way it is written it seems like 36 FRA-Brazil flights, and not 36 FRA/MUC-Brazil flights, I am right?
 
hardiwv
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RE: JJ Flights To LIM And NYC

Sat Feb 12, 2005 6:34 am

Where does this 3rd flight come from, aren't you confusing with GRU-MUC?

Rafa,

You are correct:

Currently there are the following flights FRA-Brazil:

- FRA-GRU LH B747 daily;
- FRA-GRU LH A346 daily;
- FRA-GRU-GIG RG B772 daily;
- FRA-GIG RG MD11 daily;

TOTAL = 28 daily flights

As of July, MUC-GRU-GIG RG B772 daily.

Tks for the correction.

Abracos,
Hardi
 
Southamerica
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RE: JJ Flights To LIM And NYC

Sat Feb 12, 2005 6:50 am

Brazil is the only country in LatAm with nonstop flights to LHR

Again Hardi, kicking out countries...

This time Mexico, and it's several weekly nonstop services to LHR got their chance...  Big grin



SOUTHAMERICA
 
hardiwv
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RE: JJ Flights To LIM And NYC

Sat Feb 12, 2005 6:59 am

This time Mexico, and it's several weekly nonstop services to LHR got their chance

Tks SouthAmerica. I did a quick search and, indeed, there are the following flights MEX-LHR: BA 3 x week with the B747.

Any other flights I'm not aware? You mentioned several flights LHR-MEX, so which are the other ones?

Brazil, in its turn, has two daily flights: BA B747 daily and RG MD-11 daily.

So I will correct my phrase as follows: "Brazil is the only country in LatAm with daily nonstop flights to LHR.

Rgs,
 
Southamerica
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RE: JJ Flights To LIM And NYC

Sat Feb 12, 2005 7:12 am

Hardi,



I did a quick search and, indeed, there are the following flights MEX-LHR: BA 3 x week with the B747.

Yes, BA has been increasing and decreasing services between 3 and 5 weekly flights in the LHR-MEX-LHR route, all operated on 744s. Throughout this year it appears as MEX will have to do with only 3.


Any other flights I'm not aware? You mentioned several flights LHR-MEX, so which are the other ones?

No, that's it for nonstops between Latin America and London. Aeromexico does have permission to fly to LGW, but apparently they aren't too interested if they don't get LHR [which is probably not happening soon].

Just for the record, I wrote that MEX got several weekly flights to LHR, pointing out precisely the 3 flights provided by BA.



So I will correct my phrase as follows: "Brazil is the only country in LatAm with daily nonstop flights to LHR.

...or if your wish is to give even more credits to Brazil, you could simply say that it is the only country in South America to have nonstops to LHR, and not only one daily, but two.



SOUTHAMERICA
 
DBCooper
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RE: JJ Flights To LIM And NYC

Sat Feb 12, 2005 7:24 am

Bom dia,

With so many opportunities at home, why should JJ take on the huge risks of long-haul int'l. service?

NYC also has lots of competition, incl. AA, CO, JL, ...

Also - don't forget that ASU-based PZ also gives JJ some regional reach (albeit indirect).

Finally, I thought it was AF that killed the AF/JJ codeshare, not JJ, in response to JJ introducing a 2nd GRU-CDG flight? Please correct me if I am wrong...


Obrigado.....DBC
 
hardiwv
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RE: JJ Flights To LIM And NYC

Sat Feb 12, 2005 7:29 am

SOUTHAMERICA:

Thanks for the details and explanations, and I was not aware of BA flights to MEX. But I would consider this a couple of weekly flights instead of several. But that's purely semantical...The important fact was your correction pointing out BA operations in MEX.

Again, thanks for the explanation, and I do hope AM gets the landing slots in LHR. RG has been operating in LHR for ages (anyone with precise dates?), so it did not need to face this problem. And RG also has landing slots for 3 x week LHR-CPH, with 5th freedom rights.

Have a nice evening,
 
hardiwv
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RE: JJ Flights To LIM And NYC

Sat Feb 12, 2005 7:50 am

I thought it was AF that killed the AF/JJ codeshare, not JJ, in response to JJ introducing a 2nd GRU-CDG flight? Please correct me if I am wrong...

This is an interesting question! Can anyone answer???

I was always told that it was JJ that killed the codeshare...[reason: JJ with its 3 million Fidelidade members was feeding AF operations in Brazil in both GRU and GIG. For you to have an idea KLM has the same number of FF members than JJ...Fidelidade is huge, a major asset of JJ].

And what about JJ statement that it would end its codeshate with AA? I know that AA refused to codeshare JJ's second daily flight to MIA, and JJ is doing the flight "solo".

Rgs,
 
Avianca
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RE: JJ Flights To LIM And NYC

Sat Feb 12, 2005 8:39 am

>ZRH is a difference story. There is market potential for more flights, and Switzerland has huge business with Brazil (farmaceutical and banking)<

yes Switzerland has huge business with Brazil, but Germany has 10times more.


We could start with the Automobile Industrie.

Volkswagen, Audi, Daimler Crysler, Bosch ...

Farmaceutical, Health products
Bayer, Basf, RheinChemi, Boehringer Ingelheim,

other Products:
Siemens....

That are only some german companys, and to add a lot of international companys like Roche, Tyco....and some bearing companys like FAG Kugelfischer or the new owner of them Ina Schäffler...

Also the german bank business is for sure doing well in Brazil.

LX can not fill up the flights only with a big amount of transfer passengers from all over europe and passenger with final destination EZE.

German - Brazil market can support an additional flight without a problem.

regards
Avianca

Colombia es el Mundo Y el Mundo es Colombia
 
hardiwv
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RE: JJ Flights To LIM And NYC

Sat Feb 12, 2005 8:46 am

LX can not fill up the flights only with a big amount of transfer passengers from all over europe and passenger with final destination EZE.

LX does not fly to EZE. LX only destination is LatAm is GRU.

German - Brazil market can support an additional flight without a problem

This additional flight has a date to start: July/05, RG will fly daily GRU-MUC.

Rgs,
 
Avianca
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RE: JJ Flights To LIM And NYC

Sat Feb 12, 2005 8:55 am

EZE. LX only destination is LatAm is GRU>

I am aware that they only fly to GRU, and kicked the onforwarding flight to EZE. They transfer the passengers on the JJ flights to EZE, with big amounts.



This additional flight has a date to start: July/05, RG will fly daily GRU-MUC.>

for sure a big part of the passengers will be transfer passengers of the big MUC Star Hub, including Europe and for sure Far East and the Middle East.
This flight will defuse the overbooking situation on the current FRA-GRU flights.

regards
Avianca

Colombia es el Mundo Y el Mundo es Colombia
 
PPVRA
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RE: JJ Flights To LIM And NYC

Sat Feb 12, 2005 8:55 am

Avianca,

The problem is why would a German fly JJ? It can only take them to Brazil, and the miles they earned (and quite a bit of miles too) would only be good on JJ.

If JJ joins OW they could code share with BA, and since there probably is a considerable number of Germany based BA consumers they could help fill the seats. Otherwise, JJ would have to solely base on Brazilian traffic, plus a few tourists if they are cheap enough... tough task considering the competition flies daily 744/A346/M11/772s.

Not to mention MUC should begin about half way 2005, further draining more potential pax.

As far as alliances go, JJ has a dilemma: AA in North America (+BA, but not so critical), or AF/KL in Europe.

Cheers,

PPVRA

Edit: Typo

[Edited 2005-02-12 00:58:54]
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
Avianca
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RE: JJ Flights To LIM And NYC

Sat Feb 12, 2005 9:45 am

JJ? It can only take them to Brazil,>

why should not? why us a German LA? Chile is a much more smaller market than Brazil and receives a daily LH A346, and the conections on them are also confinded.

JJ is relativ strong in the german - brazil/argentina market although the flights are routed via CDG/GRU.

Also if they will not have a code-share partner what is the problem?
Surly the could bargain with some carriers to feed the flight from other european airports.

For example, AV is also feeding there BOG flight from MAD with some european airlines, for example from germany with LH, Spanair and even on IB, or from England with BA...

They could have a good baseload for the flight with german travellers and optimize the load factor with transitpassengers from other european citys...

regards
Avianca

Colombia es el Mundo Y el Mundo es Colombia
 
hardiwv
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RE: JJ Flights To LIM And NYC

Sat Feb 12, 2005 10:59 pm

Chile is a much more smaller market than Brazil and receives a daily LH A346, and the conections on them are also confinded.

Capacity Brazil-Germany is FIVE times bigger than Chile-Germany. Chile only gets one daily flights with a stop-over in GRU.

Also if they will not have a code-share partner what is the problem?

Most of RG and LH pax out of Brazil make onward connection to Europe and Asia. Without a partner in FRA JJ cannot make it, the market is dominated by RG and LH, both also are very agressive with fares - JJ cannot compete with them.

optimize the load factor with transitpassengers from other european citys...

JJ can only do this in CDG. That's why JJ will increase flights to CDG to two daily as of Jun/05.

There are other destinations more interesting for JJ: ZRH is first that comes to mind.

I got this statements from the thread "LH take over of LX": "The Swiss' are one of the richest in Europe and they travel frequently. It is high yielding, therefore you see a lot of foreign carriers in Zurich and Geneva.". LX flight GRU-ZRH is running full already all winter long.".

LX has a monopoly of the Swiss-Brazil market, and it is in a bad shape...perfect conditions for JJ to enter this market. As I said, if JJ had continued with its daily flight GRU-(FRA)-ZRH it would be making money now.

Rgs,
 
Avianca
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RE: JJ Flights To LIM And NYC

Sat Feb 12, 2005 11:20 pm

>Capacity Brazil-Germany is FIVE times bigger than Chile-Germany. Chile only gets one daily flights with a stop-over in GRU<

market is also at least five times bigger, and FRA gets also a daily Santiago flight with LA (A343) via MAD.


>Most of RG and LH pax out of Brazil make onward connection to Europe and Asia. Without a partner in FRA JJ cannot make it, the market is dominated by RG and LH, both also are very agressive with fares - JJ cannot compete with them>

I told about the possibiltys for partners to connect passenges for other european countrys. RG and LH are in the german market all other than agressive, they have the highest fares on the route from germany. The cheap deals you recive with IB, AF, AZ, JJ and even TP.

>I got this statements from the thread "LH take over of LX": "The Swiss' are one of the richest in Europe and they travel frequently. It is high yielding, therefore you see a lot of foreign carriers in Zurich and Geneva.". LX flight GRU-ZRH is running full already all winter long.".>

Swiss is one of the richest country, but germany is the highest populated country in the European union and for sure not poor. And we also can see the different on the passengers statistic, even MUC has some million passengers more than ZRH and they are not only transfer passengers...

regards
Avianca
Colombia es el Mundo Y el Mundo es Colombia
 
hardiwv
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RE: JJ Flights To LIM And NYC

Sun Feb 13, 2005 12:11 am

market is also at least five times bigger, and FRA gets also a daily Santiago flight with LA (A343) via MAD

But you forgot that Brazil get connect with Europe with MANY other airlines that dont even land in Chile: BA, AZ, LX, TP, etc..

I told about the possibiltys for partners to connect passenges for other european countrys

Partners only connect from their hubs. FRA is LH hub. JJ has only ONE parter in Europe: AF. Without a partner, JJ cannot make it in FRA. Where would JJ pax fly onwards from FRA?

even MUC has some million passengers more than ZRH

MUC will get daily flights with RG as of Jul/05.

In the meanwhile, the Swiss-Brazil market remains without competition, only 5 weekly flights, and only player: LX, with flights always fully booked.

LX transfer the passengers on the JJ flights to EZE, with big amounts.

LX does not transfer a single pax onwards from GRU to EZE. LX has no agreement with JJ. LX traffic is all to GRU.

Rgs,
 
Avianca
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RE: JJ Flights To LIM And NYC

Sun Feb 13, 2005 12:31 am

>Partners only connect from their hubs. FRA is LH hub. JJ has only ONE parter in Europe: AF. Without a partner, JJ cannot make it in FRA. Where would JJ pax fly onwards from FRA?<

Is for example is Eva Air LH partner not really. Eva offers the german market the flight from Vienna to BKK and TPE with conection on LH. The same does CX for ther Frankfurt flights, or CO.
Also Lufthansa has no code-share on Bog-CCS flights operated by AV or VH, but LH has still a amount of passengers on the CCS route in conection with AV to Colombia, heard one times like 20 percent of the flight. It is is totally wrong that for feeding a flight you must have code-shares to every city. All airlines have posibillitys for the passengers to conect after longhoul flight to other citys.

GRU to EZE. LX has no agreement with JJ. LX traffic is all to GRU.>

also wrong, maybe they have not a code-share on the flights but I have friends that used this conection some often and they told me that there were a amount of travellers on board for this routing.

regards
Avianca



Colombia es el Mundo Y el Mundo es Colombia
 
hardiwv
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RE: JJ Flights To LIM And NYC

Sun Feb 13, 2005 12:38 am

Avianca:

LX has no codeshare agreement whatsoever with JJ or any other airline in South America. Pax have to buy a separate ticket. LX pax are 90% with final destination in GRU, and the rest makes domestic connection in Brazil.

RG and LH dominate the market Germany-Brazil. Eva Air serves a destination which LH does not cover (TPE), and other airlines (CO or CX) are part of another world alliance (OW/Sky). TAM does not fall in this category. It would do better searching for another destination.

Rgs,
 
Avianca
Posts: 5270
Joined: Tue Jan 25, 2005 5:33 am

RE: JJ Flights To LIM And NYC

Sun Feb 13, 2005 12:49 am

Hardiwv,

just for example look this flight bookable on opodo.de

_____________________________________________________


Economy-Tarif
EUR 1021,72** Flugpreis für 1 Erwachsene/r und 0 Kind/er, 0 Baby/s

Preis Steuern Servicepauschale Gesamtpreis (inkl. Steuern, Flughafengebühren und Servicepauschale)
Erwachsener: EUR 936,00** EUR 40,72** EUR 45,00** EUR 1021,72**


Hinflug: Sa 21 Mai 05, 1 Stopp/s
Flugdauer: 16:50
Abflug: Zurich (ZRH),
Zürich, Schweiz
22:30 Sa

Ankunft: Terminal 2, Guarulhos Int'l (GRU),
Sao Paulo, Brasilien
05:30 So

Direktflug
Swiss (LX 96) >
Flugzeugtyp - 343
Economy



Umsteigeverbindung:




05:30 So - 07:35 So
Umsteigen
Dauer des Zwischenstopps: 2h05

Abflug: Terminal 2, Guarulhos Int'l (GRU),
Sao Paulo, Brasilien
07:35 So

Ankunft: Ministro Pistarini (EZE),
Buenos Aires, Argentinien
10:20 So

Direktflug
Varig (RG 8640) >
Flugzeugtyp - 772
Economy (Sondertarife)



Rückflug: Do 26 Mai 05, 1 Stopp/s
Flugdauer: 15:10
Abflug: Ministro Pistarini (EZE),
Buenos Aires, Argentinien
14:45 Do

Ankunft: Terminal 1, Guarulhos Int'l (GRU),
Sao Paulo, Brasilien
17:15 Do

Direktflug
Tam Linhas Aereas (JJ 8005) >
Flugzeugtyp - 320
Economy (Sondertarife)



Umsteigeverbindung:


Von:

Nach:


17:15 Do - 18:30 Do
Wechsel des Flugzeugs und Terminals
Terminal 1, Guarulhos Int'l (GRU),
Sao Paulo, Brasilien
Terminal 2, Guarulhos Int'l (GRU),
Sao Paulo, Brasilien
Dauer des Zwischenstopps: 1h15

Abflug: Terminal 2, Guarulhos Int'l (GRU),
Sao Paulo, Brasilien
18:30 Do

Ankunft: Zurich (ZRH),
Zürich, Schweiz
10:55 Fr

Direktflug
Swiss (LX 97) >
Flugzeugtyp - 343
Economy

__________________________________________

you will not buy two tickets. even the conection in gru to eze is with RG and the concections from eze to gru is with JJ.



<. Eva Air serves a destination which LH does not cover (TPE), and other airlines (CO or CX) are part of another world alliance (OW/Sky).>

nothing to do with that, LH also offers the conecting flights for EVA also for the BKK sector, and we all now that Star Alliance is the Boss in BKK.

other example JAL, you can also book flights to Japan with them from Muc via Fra in conection with LH, and LH for sure offers flights to Japan fro FRA and MUC, it has nothing to do if they serve also the market or not.

regards
Avianca


Colombia es el Mundo Y el Mundo es Colombia
 
hardiwv
Posts: 4341
Joined: Sat Oct 09, 2004 11:30 pm

RE: JJ Flights To LIM And NYC

Sun Feb 13, 2005 1:08 am

you will not buy two tickets. even the conection in gru to eze is with RG and the concections from eze to gru is with JJ

Of course! This is a combination ticket! There is no codeshare arrangement here! JJ and LX have no partnership whatsoever. With opodo or any other seach engine you can combine any ticket with any earline.

Try to do the same with LX's webpage...you cannot!

Preis Steuern Servicepauschale Gesamtpreis (inkl. Steuern, Flughafengebühren und Servicepauschale)
Erwachsener: EUR 936,00** EUR 40,72** EUR 45,00** EUR 1021,72**


Look at the price of the ticket...it shows it is a combination ticket! You will not manage to book a ticket to EZE on LX webpage!

LH also offers the conecting flights for EVA also for the BKK sector, and we all now that Star Alliance is the Boss in BKK.

This explains why EVA flies to FRA! LH will NEVER offer connection flights to JJ, NEVER! It has a reliable Brazilian partner: RG. It would be stupid for LH to offer connecting flights to JJ...

EVA and JAL are not member of any alliance!

Rgs,



[Edited 2005-02-12 17:12:48]
 
Avianca
Posts: 5270
Joined: Tue Jan 25, 2005 5:33 am

RE: JJ Flights To LIM And NYC

Sun Feb 13, 2005 1:36 am

you will also find tickets to gru with JJ from zrh via CDG and the flight to CDG is on behalf on Swiss and not AF.

here a example for LH and JJ.

Abflug: Terminal 1, Frankfurt (FRA),
Frankfurt, Deutschland
18:05 Sa

Ankunft: Terminal 1, Charles De Gaulle (CDG),
Paris, Frankreich
19:15 Sa

Direktflug
Lufthansa (LH 4232) >
Flugzeugtyp - 320
Economy (Sondertarife)



Umsteigeverbindung:


Von:

Nach:


19:15 Sa - 22:00 Sa
Wechsel des Flugzeugs und Terminals
Terminal 1, Charles De Gaulle (CDG),
Paris, Frankreich
Terminal 2A, Charles De Gaulle (CDG),
Paris, Frankreich
Dauer des Zwischenstopps: 2h45

Abflug: Terminal 2A, Charles De Gaulle (CDG),
Paris, Frankreich
22:00 Sa

Ankunft: Terminal 1, Guarulhos Int'l (GRU),
Sao Paulo, Brasilien
05:50 So

Direktflug
Tam Linhas Aereas (JJ 8097) >
Flugzeugtyp - 330
Economy (Sondertarife)



Rückflug: Sa 26 März 05, 1 Stopp/s
Flugdauer: 16:55
Abflug: Terminal 1, Guarulhos Int'l (GRU),
Sao Paulo, Brasilien
23:40 Sa

Ankunft: Terminal 2A, Charles De Gaulle (CDG),
Paris, Frankreich
15:00 So

Direktflug
Tam Linhas Aereas (JJ 8098) >
Flugzeugtyp - 330
Economy (Sondertarife)



Umsteigeverbindung:


Von:

Nach:


15:00 So - 20:10 So
Wechsel des Flugzeugs und Terminals
Terminal 2A, Charles De Gaulle (CDG),
Paris, Frankreich
Terminal 2D, Charles De Gaulle (CDG),
Paris, Frankreich
Dauer des Zwischenstopps: 5h10

Abflug: Terminal 2D, Charles De Gaulle (CDG),
Paris, Frankreich
20:10 So

Ankunft: Terminal 2, Frankfurt (FRA),
Frankfurt, Deutschland
21:35 So

Direktflug
Air France (AF 1018) >
Flugzeugtyp - 320
Economy (Sondertarife)


this ticket price and also the above mentioned is a standart price not the chepest but also not the highest.


>EVA and JAL are not member of any alliance!< that is not the argument because LH is also serving the market to Japan very well.

It is very common in the industry that the airlines use also other carriers for conections not only there alliance brothers...

regards
Avianca
Colombia es el Mundo Y el Mundo es Colombia
 
hardiwv
Posts: 4341
Joined: Sat Oct 09, 2004 11:30 pm

RE: JJ Flights To LIM And NYC

Sun Feb 13, 2005 1:40 am

Avianca:

These type of tickets are combined tickets! Try to book the same ticket on JJ webpage and you cannot!!!!!!!!! You never get promotional fares for these tickets...



 
Avianca
Posts: 5270
Joined: Tue Jan 25, 2005 5:33 am

RE: JJ Flights To LIM And NYC

Sun Feb 13, 2005 2:35 am

ok if they combined tickets, why should JJ not receive passengers on FRA flights from other citys with these combined tickets to fill up flights?

regards
Avianca
Colombia es el Mundo Y el Mundo es Colombia
 
JJMNGR
Posts: 924
Joined: Wed May 26, 2004 9:06 pm

RE: JJ Flights To LIM And NYC

Sun Feb 13, 2005 7:47 am

Some interesting points of view...some other not.

When JJ decided to operate FRA, the market price of a Y tkt was USD759,00 RT. ONLY 03 months of operations, flights were with a very good load, and LHR and RG decided to drop their rates to USD490,00....
As JJ is an airline that looks profit, simply decided to cease operations. I particularly think they should wait a little bit more, but they didn´t.

In fact, the decision to fly FRA (the home of StartAlliance and Lufthansa itself) was a dangerous decision. There is an idea above mentioning exactly the connections with trains, etc...that was the strategy that did not work.

FRA is not a main destination as this city is for business. FRA itself is a big connection airport for other cities in Germany and of course Europe and other continents. RG, for the fact of being part of StarAlliance has the facility to connect their passengers with LH and other carriers. JJ did not get the lucky, or maybe the friendship of other partners in FRA.

There is another comment above questioning about "...why should a German fly JJ?..." I am sorry to say what I will but this is the most stupid questioning I´ve ever read here.

The answer might be: " For the same reasons that many French, English, Dutch, Italians, etc...prefer to fly to CDG to catch a JJ flight!!!! Because the airline offers a very good service!!! It is not a "chicken or pasta" airline!!!

There are many Americans also, looking to catch a flight to Brazil with JJ, instead of AA, UA, CO, and also RG, which services declined a lot recently.

There is not chance that JJ returns to fly to FRA or ZRH in short terms. As stated above, TAM is going to increase from 10 to 14 flights a week to CDG end of this year.
One of the 04 A332 flying at Ethyhad (PT-MVB) will be back in March for a D-Check and wilk be kept here. A brand new A3332 is confirmed to arrive in OCT completing the orders of A332 (10th A332).

TAM is still waiting to see what is going to happen with this "embrolio" called VARIG. If RG stops some international destination, TAM already told to some authorities that it might assume the route, only if the route proves to be a profitable route. RG very recently did an statement on a Brazilian newspaper, saying that they really fly to some destinations for patriotism. Come on!!! Fly to loose money?

I like a post above:


"I don't want to be the first one in anything, but the best second one!!!"

This is right! While our main competitor is in a huge trouble, TAM is ending 2004 with a historical profit of more than USD100 million!!! Final figures are going to be posted during this coming week...for for almost 2 years TAM is being the domestic market share leader with now raising to 42%.....employees are going to receive on 28th March 03 more salaries (ref results of 2004).
Ask to any of the employees if they are unhappy for the fact of TAM is so conservative? Guess the answer...

Good evening folks!



 
hardiwv
Posts: 4341
Joined: Sat Oct 09, 2004 11:30 pm

RE: JJ Flights To LIM And NYC

Sun Feb 13, 2005 8:14 am

RG very recently did an statement on a Brazilian newspaper, saying that they really fly to some destinations for patriotism. Come on!!! Fly to loose money?

This was a statement with political connotation to win support from the Government.

I cant recall any possible intercontinental destination in which RG is not doing/or could not do a profit: MXP, CDG-AMS, LHR-CPH, MAD, LIS, FRA, JFK, MIA, LAX, NRT...all look potentially profitable destinations. Correct? I would not axe a single of the mentioned destinations. The same applies for RG intra-South American destinations.

A "profitable route" is a questionable concept. What is profitable for TAM may not be profitable for another airline...I'm sure the concept of "profitable" for TAM is very much debatable.

Do you know which airline has an unprofitable route? TAM's SCL flight! The next destination TAM will axe. Its marketing was extremely poor; compare the marketing done by GOL for EZE. RG and LA have two daily flights, and to put more pressure LH will start flying a daily A346 to SCL.

Ask to any of the employees if they are unhappy for the fact of TAM is so conservative? Guess the answer...

Think small, be small = TAM?

I guess we could make the same question to any of the major airlines that managed to expand without being so conservative, i.e. LAN, Emirates, and even Ethyad.

Ask GOL's employees what they think? [In only four years]. They have an order of 63 B737-800NG on their pockets. And their CEO got a full page of the FT. Btw, who is the CEO of TAM...????.... I cant remember the name....interesting enough I remember the name of RG's CEO: Mr. Fajerman ....amazing enough I can even remember the name of OceanAir's CEO: Mr. Efromovich....major point: TAM has no leader! Good times, Cmd Rolim Amaro!

TAM will continue a limited airline, with a small international network.

Rgs,
 
JJMNGR
Posts: 924
Joined: Wed May 26, 2004 9:06 pm

RE: JJ Flights To LIM And NYC

Sun Feb 13, 2005 9:44 am

Opinion is like butt...everybody has one.

A flight full os passengers does not mean the airline is making money!!!

Yes the flight to SCL may have poor marketing...but why spend ,money in market if the loads are doing good? To throw money by the window?

What is the importance of knowing the CEO name of a company????

Do anybody knows the CEO of LG, or Johnson & Johnson?

Yes!!!! TAM is limted!!!! As so as many minds!!!
 
PPVRA
Posts: 7865
Joined: Fri Nov 12, 2004 7:48 am

RE: JJ Flights To LIM And NYC

Sun Feb 13, 2005 10:24 am

The answer might be: " For the same reasons that many French, English, Dutch, Italians, etc...prefer to fly to CDG to catch a JJ flight!!!! Because the airline offers a very good service!!! It is not a "chicken or pasta" airline!!!

Most pax won't go out of their way to catch a different airline, and it would be no good benefits wise since the only airline they could use these FF miles is based thousands of kilometers away.

Many Europeans fly AF/KL instead of their own airline, those might be the "foreign" flying JJ. Most people never heard or JJ, not even RG! The only way they fly these airlines is from code-sharing with the local airlines.

I guess we could make the same question to any of the major airlines that managed to expand without being so conservative, i.e. LAN, Emirates, and even Ethyad.

I agree, except for LAN. Small market, small population, not much can be done about it!!

"I don't want to be the first one in anything, but the best second one!!!"

Or... second place = first loser!

JJ aren't losers, but if they follow that line of thought they will lose money they could have made.

And I would go as far as saying, IF (and that's a big IF) RG comes out with new investors and a new management team... JJ could be in trouble in the LONG run.

Please, I am not anti-JJ, I have flown them several time (probably as many times as RG) and love them too. You could say I love them both and want to see both doing well  Smile

Cheers,

PPVRA






"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
Arcano
Posts: 2299
Joined: Mon Mar 22, 2004 4:34 am

RE: JJ Flights To LIM And NYC

Sun Feb 13, 2005 11:22 am

Do you know which airline has an unprofitable route? TAM's SCL flight! The next destination TAM will axe. Its marketing was extremely poor; compare the marketing done by GOL for EZE. RG and LA have two daily flights, and to put more pressure LH will start flying a daily A346 to SCL.

Funny thing, when we were discussing the entrance of GOL to Chile I posted that this probably would affect JJ the most, and you said no way, it's gonna be LAN, and now you say JJ performance is poor and you take my words of the poor marketing they are doing here (unless you got the chance to witness it by your own)... At last we are talking the same! (cheers for that small contradiction of yours)

Another question for you, LH GRU-SCL already started??? I thought they would start in march. So that's a missing flight in the money maker SCL-EZE market. Probably not too competitive for two European carriers at the same time competing with the well coverage of LA/AR and the announced H2/I3 EZE destinations.

PPVRA: I don't think LAN strategy can be labelled as "conservative" (it wasn't conservative open new destinations, getting a whole new cargo fleet, open new airlines and keep looking for anothers), I agree it's not a "risk oriented" airline at all. I think the proper label for LAN is "Extremely profit oriented", so they don't take a chance if there's no money behind, but they were able to deny their own country for getting more money. That's not conservative at all!

JJMNGR Tanto tiempo! sice I think your knoledge about JJ is very good, are the loads for the GRU-SCL market good for JJ already? Good! Totally agree that if they are filling the bird maybe there's no need for spending more money in media. Although I think we don't need so many flights connecting Santiago ans Sao Paulo. After all, LA and RG (and now LH) are also using widebodyes that carries more passengers, cargo and, if filled, would have lower costs per seat than JJ, PZ and G3.

Good to hear from you. Regards Arcano)(
in order: 721,146,732,763,722,343,733,320,772,319,752,321,88,83,744,332,100,738, 333, 318, 77W, 78, 773, 380, 73G, 788, 789, 346
 
PPVRA
Posts: 7865
Joined: Fri Nov 12, 2004 7:48 am

RE: JJ Flights To LIM And NYC

Sun Feb 13, 2005 11:34 am

Hola Arcano!

I am very sorry! I missread Hardi's post, I thought he included LA in the "conservative" group... I don't think they are in that group!

And BTW, I think all [private] companies are "Extremely profit oriented"  Big grin

Saludos,

PPVRA
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
EMB195ER
Topic Author
Posts: 253
Joined: Mon Sep 13, 2004 3:31 am

RE: JJ Flights To LIM And NYC

Sun Feb 13, 2005 12:43 pm

Hi guys,

I have to agree with PPVRA, perhaps TAM is ignoring his biggest opportunity to become the Brazilian "first" airline.

IF RG recovers from its economical chaotic situation, I am sure they will invest in new airplanes and the quality of the service will improve too.

Hugs,

EMB195ER
 
hardiwv
Posts: 4341
Joined: Sat Oct 09, 2004 11:30 pm

RE: JJ Flights To LIM And NYC

Sun Feb 13, 2005 5:55 pm

cheers for that small contradiction of yours

I hope you had the chance to read the meaning between the lines...try to read all my posts from the begining and you may know what I meant.

We are usually very tough/critical with those we know are the best, because we know they can do even better and improve. I will not waste my time writing about RG...it's hopeless anyway.

As for G3, they would do extremely well in any route, incl SCL, because they offer a new product, a new approach to air travel. There is ample market for G3 in South America.

LH GRU-SCL already started??? I thought they would start in march

It will start next week (18 Feb/05). Tickets are on sale in Brazil: USD560 return economy and USD1,600 return business. Note: LH A346 GRU-SCL has its new business class product, wit 66 seats on bizz, and 279 in Y:

http://www.lufthansa-brazil.com/fly/br/pt/index/

I don't think LAN strategy can be labelled as "conservative"

LA is not conservative at all. With such a small market in a small country, it did (and still does) extremely well.

JJ is very good, are the loads for the GRU-SCL market good for JJ already? Good! Totally agree that if they are filling the bird maybe there's no need for spending more money in media.

JJ's loads for SCL are good. I put a question mark here. I took its final leg GRU-GIG (as a KL flight last January) and the plane was half full (I haven't seen a single Chilean on the filght). So I'm surprised.

Even if loads are indeed "good", I dont think this should exclude the airline from a more intense marketing campaign, especially in Chile. Remember that we are in high season, and low season starts next month, with the added pressure of LH.

Probably TAM was much more known in Chile that I thought...

Rgs,
 
Arcano
Posts: 2299
Joined: Mon Mar 22, 2004 4:34 am

RE: JJ Flights To LIM And NYC

Mon Feb 14, 2005 4:53 am

Probably TAM was much more known in Chile that I thought...

As I told you once, it's amazing to realize almost nobody is aware of any airline named TAM (JJ nor PZ), so they brand awaerness value here is 0. Now, there's another option: they are doing good among wholesalers, so if I want to buy a trip to Brazil I'll get almost as only option JJ. Maybe this is the largest distribution channel for JJ in Chile right know, but trust me, nobody knows TAM in Chile, unlike RG, AV, LB or PU...


writing about RG...it's hopeless anyway.
You know what? Although I don't have any cold argument for that, somehow I'm hopefull about RG, I'm sure they'll survive (even if after the aid from Brazilian Government) and keep the title of the flag and main carrier of Brazil. Loos AV or AZ; almost broken and yet surviving...

With such a small market in a small country, it did (and still does) extremely well.
Yes, small right know, but remember LAN is giving credit to Chilean Government strategy of making Chile the Singapore of Latin America, and actually LAN has told that if Chile becomes a new Singapore, LAN wants to become a new Singapore Airline.
So don't rush in rest credit to a country based only on size, because this is not a competition, if we want to keep doing comparisons, Chile might become Singapore, Brazil / China, Peru/Malaysia, etc.


Regards )(
in order: 721,146,732,763,722,343,733,320,772,319,752,321,88,83,744,332,100,738, 333, 318, 77W, 78, 773, 380, 73G, 788, 789, 346

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