cumulonimbus
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Large ASA And CO Express Turboprop Order Looming?

Fri Feb 11, 2005 5:08 am


Talking to some Flight attendants on both Airlines, I have Heard That ASA will likely Buy the Q-400 to replace the Crj-200. I asked her why they may do this and she stated that, Management believes that it would be much more cost effective due to oil prices. Normally I would just brush this off but I have heard this once before. CO express on the other hand has been looking for Turboprop AC and Also the EMB-170. I remember reading an article that stated this before, I believe it was Forbes. Has anybody heard anything about this? If so I am Curious if these rumors are true.

Mike
 
deltairlines
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RE: Large ASA And CO Express Turboprop Order Looming?

Fri Feb 11, 2005 5:17 am

For ASA, I would expect a possible Q400 order, to replace ATRs on the shorter routes. A Q300 order would be more likely to replace CR2s, since they both hold 50 seats...still, I think ASA would keep their current CR2s, as a lot of their routes have stage lengths long enough to warrent CRJ service.

Jeff
 
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drerx7
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RE: Large ASA And CO Express Turboprop Order Looming?

Fri Feb 11, 2005 5:18 am

I doubt COEx will get turboprops under the Expressjet banner--if anything they would only use turboprops from contracted partners ala Colgan and Gulfstream. I've heard the rumour about ERJ-170s, but what does their pilots contract say about that?
Third Coast born, means I'm Texas raised
 
juventus
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RE: Large ASA And CO Express Turboprop Order Looming?

Fri Feb 11, 2005 5:23 am

COEX NEVER. They are proud to be the largest regional JET operator in the world.
 
Danny
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RE: Large ASA And CO Express Turboprop Order Looming?

Fri Feb 11, 2005 5:35 am

"COEX NEVER. They are proud to be the largest regional JET operator in the world."

Proud to be a lossmaker? DH8D or AT7 can take 20 passengers more at much lower cost comparing to ER4. Maybe not under ExpressJet name but I can see them order some AT7.
 
Cory6188
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RE: Large ASA And CO Express Turboprop Order Looming?

Fri Feb 11, 2005 5:37 am

I would strongly doubt that CO Express would buy turboprops - at least not under the ExpressJet/COEx name. CO Connection, maybe, but one of COEx's major marketing points is that they are an all-jet airline.
 
highliner2
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RE: Large ASA And CO Express Turboprop Order Looming?

Fri Feb 11, 2005 5:48 am

I would love to see the ATR back in COEx colors, but I agree, it won't be under expressjet. However, Colgan apears to be cozying up with CO a little more, they're taking over SkyWest's routes out of IAH.
Go Cubs!
 
DAL767400ER
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RE: Large ASA And CO Express Turboprop Order Looming?

Fri Feb 11, 2005 5:51 am

That ASA Dash-8 rumor has been around for quite some time. ASA is currently getting rid of their leased AT7s, so they will be left with 12 own planes. And they have quite a few routes from ATL like CHA, MCN, GTR or MGM where a big prop has more advantages than a small RJ, plus the speed advantage of the RJ is not of importance due to the short flight length.
 
AA737-823
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RE: Large ASA And CO Express Turboprop Order Looming?

Fri Feb 11, 2005 6:17 am

Considering the break even load factor on the Dash8-400 is something like 54%, I don't see why Continental mainline hasn't parked their 737s for Dash 8s!!!
Really though, the DH8 makes lots of economical sense. And personally, I'd rather fly the wider 2-2 seating than the 1-2 NARROWbody. I don't mind a prop. Especially if it means lower fuel burn.
 
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drerx7
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RE: Large ASA And CO Express Turboprop Order Looming?

Fri Feb 11, 2005 6:20 am

I like the 1-2 config of ERJs--I am not a big fan of 2-2 especially not in the CRJ-200--supposedly seating is more comfortable on -700s and-900s.
Third Coast born, means I'm Texas raised
 
Tango-Bravo
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RE: Large ASA And CO Express Turboprop Order Looming?

Fri Feb 11, 2005 6:55 am

...I have Heard That ASA will likely Buy the Q-400 to replace the Crj-200. I asked her why they may do this and she stated that, Management believes that it would be much more cost effective due to oil prices.

According to a comprehensive study undertaken by Horizon Air before they commited to purchasing both Q-400 turboprops and CRJ-700 jets (both operated in Y70 configuration), the economics of the Q-400 are superior to the CRJ -- with flight times nearly the same -- on flights under 500 miles in distance. Since most flight segments operated by the likes of ASA and CO Express are (still) under 500 miles, the only reason I can imagine for not choosing Q-400s for a major portion of their respective fleet renewal programs would be the issue of prop vs. jet perceptions by customers.
 
SLC1
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RE: Large ASA And CO Express Turboprop Order Looming?

Fri Feb 11, 2005 7:23 am

If ASA does, that would be great. As far as CoEx, they are proud of their all jet fleet and it probably won't happen, but airlines have been known to sharply reverse positions on issues and take a marketing u-turn.
We're gonna do what we like to call a "jetBlue how do you do", which is slang for dumping a bunch of fuel in the ocean
 
N766UA
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RE: Large ASA And CO Express Turboprop Order Looming?

Fri Feb 11, 2005 7:32 am

COEX NEVER. They are proud to be the largest regional JET operator in the world.

And it has come back to bite them. Look at Commutair, Skywest, and now Colgan flying props for CO.
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miller22
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RE: Large ASA And CO Express Turboprop Order Looming?

Fri Feb 11, 2005 7:33 am

The problem with turboprops in the US isn't cost, its the loss of revenues from people not wanting to fly them. Almost every route in the US that ASA or COEX could put a Q400 on has a jet alternative. The RJ has been proven to be preferred over the turboprop in the US.

Sure they cost less, but the loss of revenues are greater.
 
tinpusher007
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RE: Large ASA And CO Express Turboprop Order Looming?

Fri Feb 11, 2005 8:41 am

I would not put much stock in the ASA rumor especially since they have some 30 + aircraft still on firm order from Bombardier. With DL doing all it can to keep pax flying with them, from a marketing standpoint, having ASA switch to turbo-props would be suicide. Also, what about Comair? When it comes to aircraft, your average Joe and Jane pax are very irrational, but they do pay the bills. I agree with Miller22
"Flying isn't inherently dangerous...but very unforgiving of carelessness, incapacity or neglect."
 
ANNOYEDFA
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RE: Large ASA And CO Express Turboprop Order Looming?

Fri Feb 11, 2005 8:54 am

COEX Is not and WILL not be getting any type of Turbo Prop. We are an all jet fleet and intend to stay that way. No one wants to sit on or work on a hot and loud turbo prop when we fly modern jet aircraft.

Who honestly cares about these small airlines like commute or colgan. They have a few planes and they operate short hops out of IAH, CLE, FL, and upstate NY. At the end of delivery our fleet will be as large as Continentals and with more take-off's and landings in a day. Everytime a junk prop is brought in we are cleared for more expansion through mexico and other cities so it is a benefit to us. I think we just started our 30th city in mexico... It's in my bid packet. Enjoy the props..... I know I won't.....  Smile/happy/getting dizzy
"TWA... One Mission, Yours."
 
ouboy79
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RE: Large ASA And CO Express Turboprop Order Looming?

Fri Feb 11, 2005 9:08 am

I think people are a little over dramatic when it comes to props. This isn't like 10 years ago where we were all paying high fares...low fares have spread everywhere. People are look for 1) price and 2) nonstop service. If it makes more sense to redeploy the high cost 50-seat RJs to longer point to point flights...then do it. You won't see many people complain on a comfortable 70+ seat Q400 that is flying at nearly the same speed as its cousin that are paying that cheap fare they love.

Something to think about...American Eagle use to do extremely well, loads and yeilds wise, in TOL to ORD with 5 to 7 AT7s a day. The fares were a bit lower and the people were there. Now they are at 4 50-seat ERJs a day...with higher fares as American tried to increase yeilds. Regardless of people's beliefs of the jet effect...the route has gone from one of the top 5 profitable Eagle only ORD markets to one of the bottom 5. Jets do no good when 1) you have fewer seats, 2) higher fares, and 3) higher costs.

I always liked this picture taken on board of the Q400 demo plane...

 
Boeing7E7
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RE: Large ASA And CO Express Turboprop Order Looming?

Fri Feb 11, 2005 9:33 am

I wouldn't be surprised if about 60% of the 50 seaters are replaced by the Q400, particularly with DLC. It's a more appropriate aircraft for the route and the same number of pax equate to a break even load, but with 70 vs. 50 seats available. The 400 burns 100-120 GPH less and the speed difference for the routes targeted is nominal. The 70 RJ's will be around, but their economics are better on the 500nm+ segment. Far more flexibility than with the CRJ-200.

The 50 seat RJ....Too Much...Too Soon...So short lived.

What was the old saying? Don't fly a jet anywhere unless is has 64 or more seats...Looks to be holding true once again.
 
FLAIRPORT
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RE: Large ASA And CO Express Turboprop Order Looming?

Fri Feb 11, 2005 9:56 am

COEX NEVER. They are proud to be the largest regional JET operator in the world.

FLL sees no CO RJ, but is prop heaven for CO (Gulfstream)...FPO and NAS are two of the destinations they serve with the props, and there were/are more as well.
NEXT FLIGHT: FLL-ATL-HPN on FL
 
Boeing7E7
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RE: Large ASA And CO Express Turboprop Order Looming?

Fri Feb 11, 2005 10:06 am

The problem with turboprops in the US isn't cost, its the loss of revenues from people not wanting to fly them.

Urban legend.
 
ANNOYEDFA
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RE: Large ASA And CO Express Turboprop Order Looming?

Fri Feb 11, 2005 10:16 am

ouboy79: I worked on props there IS NO IMPROVEMENTS! They are all hot and noisy....

FLAIRPORT: FPO and NAS are also places Expressjet flies to from EWR,CLE and IAH on the XRJ.
"TWA... One Mission, Yours."
 
Arrow
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RE: Large ASA And CO Express Turboprop Order Looming?

Fri Feb 11, 2005 10:29 am

"I worked on props there IS NO IMPROVEMENTS! They are all hot and noisy...."

What are you working on, Twin Otters? By all reports, Q400 is comfortable and quiet. I'm sure they all have climate control systems. If it's too hot, turn down the thermostat.
Never let the facts get in the way of a good story.
 
Boeing7E7
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RE: Large ASA And CO Express Turboprop Order Looming?

Fri Feb 11, 2005 2:26 pm

By all reports, Q400 is comfortable and quiet. I'm sure they all have climate control systems.

It most certainly is, not to mention the added legroom!
 
CALMSP
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RE: Large ASA And CO Express Turboprop Order Looming?

Fri Feb 11, 2005 2:29 pm

i would absolutely love to see our colors in the 170. i've been hearing some jokes that they are calling it the 180....b/c it pushes back and turns right back around for maintenance. but this is going to be the wave of the new RJs. Everyone loved the 135/145 when they first came out...but they have lost someof the interest now that they have been stretched to their limits. The 170 will be the new 135/145 in the next 4 years!! and we need some now!!!
 
N1120A
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RE: Large ASA And CO Express Turboprop Order Looming?

Fri Feb 11, 2005 2:33 pm

>I have Heard That ASA will likely Buy the Q-400 to replace the Crj-200. I asked her why they may do this and she stated that, Management believes that it would be much more cost effective due to oil prices.<

Would be much more cost effective if oil was half the price.

>I worked on props there IS NO IMPROVEMENTS! They are all hot and noisy....<

I have been downright cold on a Brasilia, and that is a much older turboprop than the Q400 which is the same as a CR7 without the costs and with spinners.

BTW, Turboprops are Jets.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
Boeing7E7
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RE: Large ASA And CO Express Turboprop Order Looming?

Fri Feb 11, 2005 2:47 pm

BTW, Turboprops are Jets.

Yeah well, try and tell that to joe blow who doesn't get it.
 
rikkus67
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RE: Large ASA And CO Express Turboprop Order Looming?

Fri Feb 11, 2005 3:02 pm

I flew on Horizon's Dash 8-Q400 from SEA to YYC shortly after the type was introduced. I found the flight to be AMAZINGLY QUIET, and the seats large and comfortable. The interior was one of the nicest I have seen in ANY type of commercial aircraft, and the flight was so smooth it was almost boring...

Although I like the CRJ series, I LOVE the Dash series... hell, I even took a Time Air (pre Canadi>n Regional) Dash 7 from my hometown of YQL to YVR, and it is STILL one of the most comfortable flights I have ever been on...

The idea that jet service is so much better is a mute point if the product is properly marketed. Taking a Fokker F28** from YQL to YYC (about 220 miles) was just as long as a turboprop, simply because of the height at which it had to fly...too much UP, and too much DOWN...the turboprop stays at level flight longer, and cabin service is better...

Time Air Dash 7:

View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Bob Garrard



Horizon Dash 8/Q400:

View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Richard Barsby - Aviation Photography CYEG



** With consoldation YQL-YYC is now just a Beech 1900D, let alone a Dash 8-100/200....  Pissed
AC.WA.CP.DL.RW.CO.WG.WJ.WN.KI.FL.SK.ACL.UA.US.F9
 
srbmod
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RE: Large ASA And CO Express Turboprop Order Loomi

Sat Feb 12, 2005 4:20 am

The only way I could see EV getting any Dash 8s would be if some of the Delta Connection Inc. CRJ-200 order slots were to be converted into Dash 8s. Why wouldn't they just order more ATRs since they currently operate the type? In some ways, perhaps they need to order a sub-50 pax turboprop as well, perhaps place an order for the ATR-42. I can understand why they didn't order them in the past to operate alongside the 72s (Pax capacity on the 42s is not too much more than the Brasilias) The Brasilias printed money for them, and in retrospect, they really did retire them prematurely.
 
ouboy79
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RE: Large ASA And CO Express Turboprop Order Looming?

Sat Feb 12, 2005 5:43 am

Nowadays...if you are going to fly a turboprop...you might as well just go in with the larger models due to cost differences - they aren't that great. Lower the fares if you need to a bit.
 
Dalmd88
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RE: Large ASA And CO Express Turboprop Order Looming?

Sat Feb 12, 2005 6:57 am

There is another advantage the Dash8Q400 has at ASA. They can fly an unlimited amount of them. The pure jets are capped by pilot scope clauses. I really think this would be a good move for all flights under 500 miles. Everytime I've flown ATL-SAV on a 737-800 I've always wondered how this makes sense? The flight spends more time taxiing out and in than flying.
 
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KaiGywer
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RE: Large ASA And CO Express Turboprop Order Looming?

Sun Feb 13, 2005 5:23 am

When WF got the Q400 I made sure to fly it over the 300. I was sitting in the very last row talking to a couple of 300-pilots, and as we're talking they rev up on the runway and we were all like wow. They had not been on the Q400 before, and we thought it felt just like a jet taking off.
“Once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been, an
 
delta-flyer
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RE: Large ASA And CO Express Turboprop Order Looming?

Sun Feb 13, 2005 12:44 pm

I am not convinced that the average passenger cares, or even notices, whether the plane on which he is flying is a prop or a jet. Nowadays passengers are keenly aware of airline economics, and selling a modern, fuel-efficient plane would probably resonate better with pax than a jet.

Pete
"In God we trust, everyone else bring data"
 
N1120A
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RE: Large ASA And CO Express Turboprop Order Looming?

Sun Feb 13, 2005 12:47 pm

>No one wants to sit on or work on a hot and loud turbo prop when we fly modern jet aircraft.<

Um, what makes a turbo-prop not modern?



Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
CORULEZ05
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RE: Large ASA And CO Express Turboprop Order Looming?

Sun Feb 13, 2005 12:49 pm

totally agree with you Miller......who wants to fly on a turboprop when you can fly on a JET. Revenues would definetly be down especially if you offer an alternative flight with a jet.
Fly jetBlue today!!!!!!!
 
geg2rap
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RE: Large ASA And CO Express Turboprop Order Looming?

Sun Feb 13, 2005 1:19 pm

low fare is the name of the game now, if you can lower costs and pass it on, joe blow will fly you
here is my thoughts, go for the q400 add free booze, word gets around and people will fly you!
Love the q400
 
737-990
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RE: Large ASA And CO Express Turboprop Order Looming?

Sun Feb 13, 2005 1:31 pm

For those who think jets will always win over props look at the pacific northwest and Horizon vs. Southwest. Horizon has maintained it's market share in the SEA-PDX/GEG/BOI and PDX-GEG/BOI markets using the Q400 against Southwest 737s. So much for pax perceptions and always taking the jet over the prop.

The longer that oil remains at over $45 a barrel the more attractive the Q400 becomes. Pride in a jet fleet means nothing if you cant make a profit.
Happiest is a man who has his vocation as a hobby
 
doug_or
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RE: Large ASA And CO Express Turboprop Order Looming?

Sun Feb 13, 2005 2:04 pm

Not much more than a parrot of previous replies, but the Q400 is a comfortable and modern airplane. My mom (who is extremely afraid of anything with under 100 seats, no jetway, or spinny thing in front of the engines) enjoyed her recent Q400 flight.


worked on props there IS NO IMPROVEMENTS! They are all hot and noisy....

I think you'll find the world a bright and less smelly place if you remove your head from its current location.
When in doubt, one B pump off
 
avek00
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RE: Large ASA And CO Express Turboprop Order Looming?

Sun Feb 13, 2005 11:06 pm

This thread is too funny...

CO is looking to bring in turboprops on flights under 300 miles. Why? Because from an economic standpoint, the use of an RJ on very short flights is inefficient and extremely expensive on a CASM basis. The turboprop v. RJ issue has been irrelevant thus far, since the markets on which CO has placed the props are all/nearly all turboprop cities for other airlines anyways.

[Edited 2005-02-13 15:07:36]
Live life to the fullest.
 
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JBo
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RE: Large ASA And CO Express Turboprop Order Looming?

Mon Feb 14, 2005 12:40 am

I don't think public perception is as anti-turboprop as it once was. Sure, there are still people who think props are older and unsafe. But on the other hand, alot of the newer entries into the turboprop world are just that -- new.

A Dash-8-Q400 sitting on a ramp nearby a -100 or -200 model would show the contrast. Especially if the older Dash has been around awhile.

Most of the -400s haven't been around long enough to look remotely worn-out. They all look new. Plus, they're huge. There's an element to the psyche of these "props=bad" people that says the bigger the plane, the safer it is.

People probably wouldn't think twice about getting on a shiny new Q400. At least they wouldn't think about it as much as if it were a Dash-8-200 that's been around awhile and in need of a paint job or something.
I'd take the awe of understanding over the awe of ignorance any day.
 
Boeing7E7
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RE: Large ASA And CO Express Turboprop Order Looming?

Tue Feb 15, 2005 1:25 am

Why wouldn't they just order more ATRs since they currently operate the type?

Because the ATR is too slow and that speed translates in to less utilization, higher trip costs, less comfort and less schedule flexibility for the airline. The idea it to compete head to head with the RJ on routes under 500nm, the point were the RJ breaks away from the Q400 in cost efficiency. Horizon, being the only operator of both types in the US is the prime example of how to use both effectively. Use the RJ on high yield routes where you know you'll make the cash. Use the 400 on shorter routes where capacity is needed, fares are sensative and the RJ can't quite cut it. For example, they are running the 400 from LAX-RDD now. There is no way they would turn a profit using the 700 due to market size. The demand is basically for a 50 seater. The 400 allows them to run that market for the same cost as the CRJ-200, allows incremental capacity growth, and eliminates the need for a third aircraft type. The Q400 is the only 70 seat TP that can do that in terms of comfort, speed and economics.