IAD777
Topic Author
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Dubai - Tel Aviv

Fri Feb 11, 2005 5:47 am

I would love to see Dubai - Tel Aviv flights. It would be an excellent link. Of course, the UAE would have recognize Israel diplomatically and the two countries would have establish relations etc etc. But I think it would be an awesome link and a good addition to Tel Aviv-Cairo and Tel Aviv-Amman flights. El Al and Emirates could both operate the route. Anyone see that happening any time soon? Or is it wishful thinking?

As an interesting side note, President Clinton flew (when we was out of office, about a year ago) between Abu Dhabi and Tel-Aviv, and it required all kinds of special overflight permissions from various countries, including Saudi Arabia. It can be done though!

IAD777
History shall be kind to me; for I intend to write it -WSC
 
nycflyer
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Dubai - Tel Aviv

Fri Feb 11, 2005 6:04 am

I'd love to see that too. Sadly, that doesn't seem realistic at the moment. As liberal as the UAE is (compared to other Arab countries), the Israel travel restriction is a very important bone they throw to any would-be Islamic radicals who might stir up trouble. I don't see that rule changing so long as it's the norm throughout the region.

Of course, with the current talks between Sharon and Abbas, I pray that there is light at the end of the tunnel here.
 
jrlander
Posts: 1025
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Dubai - Tel Aviv

Fri Feb 11, 2005 6:10 am

The routes any airline flying to or through that area of the world are interesting. I flew Gulf Air LHR-BAH and return in 2000. I kept checking on the map. We had to fly around Israel, the Occupied Territories, and Iraq. At the time, we also had to avoid Bosnia. It made for an interesting path!
 
IAD777
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RE: Dubai - Tel Aviv

Fri Feb 11, 2005 6:41 am

Jrlander:

Sounds interseting. That happened to me also, I was fly LY 744 from TLV-EWR and we had to fly around the entire balkans (this was in 1999-2000). We fly over istanbul, poland, scandanavia then down to newark. Flight time was an extra 2.5 hours. It was brutal, but the skies were clear that and I had a really neat view of interesting places.
History shall be kind to me; for I intend to write it -WSC
 
Trvlr
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RE: Dubai - Tel Aviv

Fri Feb 11, 2005 7:35 am

If it ever happened, TLV-DXB could very well become the most important route in the Middle East, linking the region's most modern and diversified economy with its rising transportation and economic superhub.

That having been said, it is going to take a lot more than Sharon and Abbas chatting nicely to normalize relations between Israel and the Islamic world. Even if (when) a legitimate Palestine becomes a reality, the rest of the states in the Middle East are not going to suddenly become best buds with Israel. Nevertheless, Dubai is poised to play a preeminent role in the economic future of the region, and the addition of Israel to that framework would be the most important economic milestone in decades.

Aaron G.
 
BA
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RE: Dubai - Tel Aviv

Fri Feb 11, 2005 8:33 am

The United Arab Emirates is one of the main contributers to aid and charity work for Palestinians.

They are funding the construction of 400 homes in Gaza which Israel had destroyed.

Israel had recently approached Abu Dhabi about establishing a "diplomatic office" like they have in Oman, Bahrain, Qatar, and Kuwait, but they were denied.

TLV-DXB will only happen when relations between the rest of the Arab world and Israel normalize.

The Arab League has been demanding that Israel pull out of the Arab territories it occupied in 1967 and that Israel accept the right of return of Palestinian refugees.

Until this happens, I don't think you will see normalization of relations between the Arab world and Israel, especially the United Arab Emirates who have always been quite Arab nationalistic.

If it ever happened, TLV-DXB could very well become the most important route in the Middle East, linking the region's most modern and diversified economy with its rising transportation and economic superhub.

I don't think TLV-DXB would ever exceed Egypt-Saudi Arabia.

Also, flights between the UAE and Saudi Arabia, Qatar, Bahrain, and Oman (the Gulf Cooperation Council nations) will always be much much bigger than TLV-DXB.

Also if peace is achieved between Israel and the UAE, I don't think it will necessarily lead to great cooperation between the two countries, at least not in the beginning.

Also, cooperation between the Gulf Cooperation Council (Saudi Arabia, Bahrain, Qatar, Kuwait, United Arab Emirates, and Oman) is all very very tightly knit. UAE-Israel peace will only happen under the condition that GCC-Israel peace happens.

Jrlander,

Take a look at the route we took when I flew BEY-AMM on MEA:



Regards
"Generosity is giving more than you can, and pride is taking less than you need." - Khalil Gibran
 
IAD777
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RE: Dubai - Tel Aviv

Fri Feb 11, 2005 8:37 am

BA:

I wasn't looking for a history of the Arab League demands. I know those. But thanks for providing one side of the story.

I was merely talking about flights between Dubai and Tel Aviv would be awesome (with the necessary condition being peace in the region, which would be even more awesome.)
History shall be kind to me; for I intend to write it -WSC
 
BA
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RE: Dubai - Tel Aviv

Fri Feb 11, 2005 8:43 am

Iad777,

Flights between Dubai and Tel Aviv cannot happen until peace is accomplished. They're inseperable.

The UAE does not recognize Israel and thus, does not even recognize Israeli passports.

They also technically do not allow anyone with an Israeli stamp to enter, however this rule is not enforced as much anymore along with a few other Arab countries.

Flights between Israel and anywhere in the Arab world (besides Egypt and Jordan) cannot happen until peace is achieved, not before.

That's simply my point.
"Generosity is giving more than you can, and pride is taking less than you need." - Khalil Gibran
 
ahlfors
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RE: Dubai - Tel Aviv

Fri Feb 11, 2005 8:58 am

I must say the most interesting thing about the image posted by BA is the labeling of the cities: 3 Palestinian cities (Nabulus, Jerusalem, Ghazzah) and Quneitra in the Golan are labeled, but Tel Aviv is not... tells you something about how the Lebanese feel about the whole situation down south.
 
TLVFred
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RE: Dubai - Tel Aviv

Fri Feb 11, 2005 9:43 am

BA.....and the right of return of Jews to Iraq, Iran etc when they were slung out in the 50's.

Must be a very long detour for people I know who travel TLV-DXB now.
 
BA
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RE: Dubai - Tel Aviv

Fri Feb 11, 2005 10:06 am

Ahlfors,

I must say the most interesting thing about the image posted by BA is the labeling of the cities: 3 Palestinian cities (Nabulus, Jerusalem, Ghazzah) and Quneitra in the Golan are labeled, but Tel Aviv is not... tells you something about how the Lebanese feel about the whole situation down south.

Most Arab made-maps will label Jaffa, which is just south of Tel Aviv.

When the news is covering something occuring in Tel Aviv, they will mark it on the map.

TLVFred,

BA.....and the right of return of Jews to Iraq, Iran etc when they were slung out in the 50's.

Why not?

Take a look at this:
http://www.ameu.org/uploads/vol31_issue2_1998.pdf

Getting slightly back on topic, does Egypt Air (under Air Sinai) still fly to Tel Aviv? I think they used to use an unlabeled 735. I'm sure Horus knows...

Regards
"Generosity is giving more than you can, and pride is taking less than you need." - Khalil Gibran
 
asbg
Posts: 531
Joined: Mon Feb 07, 2000 11:45 pm

RE: Dubai - Tel Aviv

Fri Feb 11, 2005 11:13 am

Even if one day there will be such a flight, I think both sides will wait a while before flying. I don't think that this kind of flight agreement is signed right after a peace is made. The relations between the two countries must prove themselves first. I doubt that flights to Amman and Cairo are packed with Israelis. Sinai is an exception. Flights from Tel Aviv to Dubai will be good as a stopover on the way to Asia. Instead of flying around the Persian Gulf. That way several hours of flying can be spared.


BA,
The UAE does not recognize Israel and thus, does not even recognize Israeli passports.
What about an American passport for example with "place of birth: Israel" printed? Would be a shame to know that I can't enter the UAE. I entered Malaysia with no problem even though there are no relations between my country and Malaysia.

Air Sinai still flies from Israel. A flight departs every Sunday. Yes, the fly the 735. If I'm not mistaking there are also Royal Wings flight from Amman or Aqaba to Haifa.

Sam.
 
BA
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RE: Dubai - Tel Aviv

Fri Feb 11, 2005 11:24 am

I doubt that flights to Amman and Cairo are packed with Israelis.

From what I've heard, these flights are packed with Palestinians. This is what my uncle who lives in Jordan tells me.

What about an American passport for example with "place of birth: Israel" printed? Would be a shame to know that I can't enter the UAE.

I could be wrong, but I don't think this is a problem. They go strictly by nationality, and not place of birth.

I entered Malaysia with no problem even though there are no relations between my country and Malaysia.

Yup, exactly.

Air Sinai still flies from Israel. A flight departs every Sunday. Yes, the fly the 735.

Thanks for that.

If I'm not mistaking there are also Royal Wings flight from Amman or Aqaba to Haifa.

Royal Wings discontinued Haifa a couple years ago. They still fly to Tel Aviv from Amman Queen Alia Int'l though.

The only service Aqaba gets is Royal Wings from Amman Marka Airport (and some from Queen Alia Int'l). Some of the flights to Aqaba continue to Sharm el Sheikh.

Regards
"Generosity is giving more than you can, and pride is taking less than you need." - Khalil Gibran
 
yegbey01
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RE: Dubai - Tel Aviv

Fri Feb 11, 2005 11:57 am

In my opinion, both EK and El Al would jump in there right away. But, as BA said, if there's not a peace deal that will involve all arab countries including the Saudis....the flights will never happen.

I remember one dau when I was booking a ticket at atravel agency in Dubai, someone was trying to buy a ticket from Dubai to TLV. he ended up having to fly via IST.


But honestly, I think that Ek could care less about such route.
 
COSPN
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RE: Dubai - Tel Aviv

Fri Feb 11, 2005 12:04 pm

Does EK still have a No Load Policy for Israel Passport Holders ???

This was discussed before a few months ago... Guess will see Iraq-Israel First..
 
IAD777
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RE: Dubai - Tel Aviv

Fri Feb 11, 2005 12:05 pm

BA:

I agree with your clairifed point.

It's impossible to start the flights until full peace is established, and even then it would take a bit of time.

I'd also love to see Tel-Aviv - Beirut flights. (not to mention that i'd love to go to beirut. I've lived in Israel and traveled throughout Jordan. Would like to explore more of the Mid-East.

One day, hopefully soon, these flights will start.
History shall be kind to me; for I intend to write it -WSC
 
Trvlr
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RE: Dubai - Tel Aviv

Fri Feb 11, 2005 12:07 pm

I don't think anyone here misunderstands that peace and normalized relations will have to be established before any flights between Israel and most Arab countries can begin. However, I think that in the future, DXB-TLV will happen, and when it does, it will be unbelievably successful.

Aaron G.
 
IAD777
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RE: Dubai - Tel Aviv

Fri Feb 11, 2005 12:07 pm

Regarding the picture BA posted of his routemap--which is really interesting to see, and somewhat unbelieavble and depressing--take a look at the El Al website. Then go to the routemap and if you click on Asian destinations, El Al traces the flight paths from Tel Aviv down over Eilat, down the Red Sea, and all the way around the Middle-East. It's nuts! Must be several extra hours of flight time.
History shall be kind to me; for I intend to write it -WSC
 
BA
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RE: Dubai - Tel Aviv

Fri Feb 11, 2005 1:38 pm

COSPN,

Does EK still have a No Load Policy for Israel Passport Holders ???

As far as I know, yes. All Arab airlines do (except Egyptian and Jordanian of course) do not allow Israeli passport holders. Many also do not allow passports with Israeli stamps.

All airlines serving Arab countries are required to check passports and make sure that there is no Israeli passport holder and no Israeli stamps in passports (but like I said, some countries do not enforce this rule as much anymore).

Infact, Lebanon fines airlines $2000USD if a passenger has an Israeli stamp in his/her passport. That's $2000USD per passenger who is denied entry and that passenger must be put on the return flight.

Passport holders with Israeli stamps are only allowed to transit in Beirut Airport without leaving the airport and staying at the airport for a maximum of 24 hours. This is the only exception.

However, I have heard that SOME tour companies can book tour packages in Lebanon for passengers with Israeli stamps, but this must be pre-approved.

This was discussed before a few months ago... Guess will see Iraq-Israel First..

I used to think that as well. But with Iraq possibly becoming an Islamic Republic, I wouldn't count on it.

Iad777,

(not to mention that i'd love to go to beirut.

If you don't have an Israeli stamp in your current passport or have another passport, I highly recommend you visit Beirut. If you want some more details, email me. I'd be glad to give you some tips and information.

Trvlr,

However, I think that in the future, DXB-TLV will happen, and when it does, it will be unbelievably successful.

I think this depends on how relations would develop. For example, El Al only operates 2 weekly flights between Cairo and Tel Aviv. Yet Cairo is a huge city with 16 million. However as you will have heard, the Egypt/Israel and Jordan/Israel relations have always been "cold."

IAD777,

It's nuts! Must be several extra hours of flight time.

Indeed it does. I remember hearing some issues about El Al flights flying over the Strait of Mandeb between Yemen and Djibouti/Eritrea between the Red Sea and the Arabian Sea.

Regards
"Generosity is giving more than you can, and pride is taking less than you need." - Khalil Gibran
 
777boi
Posts: 120
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RE: Dubai - Tel Aviv

Fri Feb 11, 2005 2:19 pm

I am not quiet sure what passports they have held, but i have recently seen a few kosher meals served out with the special meals on Emirates... These meals are loaded on from other airline caterers as Emirates does not make a kosher meal.
 
N1120A
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RE: Dubai - Tel Aviv

Fri Feb 11, 2005 2:27 pm

>but Tel Aviv is not... tells you something about how the Lebanese feel about the whole situation down south.<

Could be because Jaffa is the historical city.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
SFOMEX
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RE: Dubai - Tel Aviv

Fri Feb 11, 2005 2:43 pm

Really interesting topic. I'm planning a trip to the Holy Land at the end of this year and I'd love to visit Israel and some Arab countries at the same time. After all, it's not really often that you can go to that part of the world. I wasn't aware of the passport stamps issue. I will use my Mexican passport and as far as I know, we don't have any problem neither with Israel nor its Arab neighbors. Would I have a problem going first to Jerusalem and next to Lebanon? Or the other way around? I'd really appreciate any input. Thanks!
The only thing worst than the GOP is the Democratic Party, think about it!
 
FogCreekCEO
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RE: Dubai - Tel Aviv

Fri Feb 11, 2005 2:54 pm

Just ask the Israeli border authorities not to stamp your passport. They'll be happy to give you your visa on a detachable page -- they do it all the time for this reason.
 
TWA902fly
Posts: 2869
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RE: Dubai - Tel Aviv

Fri Feb 11, 2005 3:00 pm

actually Ahlfors and BA... those maps arent "Arab-made" theyre all the same and most of those GPS maps are western made anyways - they just put really wierd names on them. flying LHR-ORD on UA i remember Stephenville, Canada and Nice,Frace being on the map but not New York, Paris, Toronto. Once again flying KLM AMS-ORD Stephenville, Canada and Nice, France but no New York, Washington, anything... flying Air France LAX-PPT, Brisbane, San Diego, Seattle, not Sydney, Los Angles, etc... and Kenya Airways NBO-AMS... Muscat, Agadir, Libreville... definately not the biggest cities in the world, skipping over London, Cairo, huge places... those maps are wierd and the cities posted have nothing to do with intent by the airlines as far as i know..

TWA902
life wasn't worth the balance, or the crumpled paper it was written on
 
BA
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RE: Dubai - Tel Aviv

Fri Feb 11, 2005 3:00 pm

N1120A,

Could be because Jaffa is the historical city.

That's correct.

SFOMEX,

Would I have a problem going first to Jerusalem and next to Lebanon?

Yes, if you have an Israeli stamp in your passport, you will not be allowed into Lebanon.

Or the other way around?

This would work better, but keep in mind that I hear they interrogate you a lot if you have an Arab stamp.

FogCreekCEO,

Just ask the Israeli border authorities not to stamp your passport. They'll be happy to give you your visa on a detachable page -- they do it all the time for this reason.

That would work.

TWA902fly,

actually Ahlfors and BA... those maps arent "Arab-made" theyre all the same and most of those GPS maps are western made anyways

I was talking about Arab maps in general.

[Edited 2005-02-11 07:09:43]
"Generosity is giving more than you can, and pride is taking less than you need." - Khalil Gibran
 
asbg
Posts: 531
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RE: Dubai - Tel Aviv

Fri Feb 11, 2005 4:00 pm

Yes, if you have an Israeli stamp in your passport, you will not be allowed into Lebanon.

I don't understand this issue. What if someone for example visited to Israel for business trip or a missionary trip?

I think there is a possibility that you can order an additional passport in the American embassy. This passport is published in the US and does not mention Israel at all.

Sam.
 
BA
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RE: Dubai - Tel Aviv

Fri Feb 11, 2005 4:06 pm

I don't understand this issue. What if someone for example visited to Israel for business trip or a missionary trip?

Then his/her business or mission better arrange for a way to have a "clean" passport so it doesn't hinder his future travels, either by getting a new passport or having the stamp and visa placed on a separate paper which I believe they do.

I think there is a possibility that you can order an additional passport in the American embassy. This passport is published in the US and does not mention Israel at all.

Pretty much all embassies have passport development facilities and if not, they can have them developed somewhere else and sent to that embassy.

Regards
"Generosity is giving more than you can, and pride is taking less than you need." - Khalil Gibran
 
N1120A
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RE: Dubai - Tel Aviv

Fri Feb 11, 2005 4:10 pm

>Or the other way around?

This would work better, but keep in mind that I hear they interrogate you a lot if you have an Arab stamp.<

I have had a friend turned away and put back on a plane to Germany, with an American passport, American born, Egyptian ancestry and 1 stamp to Egypt

>FogCreekCEO,

Just ask the Israeli border authorities not to stamp your passport. They'll be happy to give you your visa on a detachable page -- they do it all the time for this reason.

That would work.<

Just like you do when you go to Cuba on an American passport
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
BA
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RE: Dubai - Tel Aviv

Fri Feb 11, 2005 4:23 pm

N1120A,

I have had a friend turned away and put back on a plane to Germany, with an American passport, American born, Egyptian ancestry and 1 stamp to Egypt

Wow, when was this and for what reason?

Just like you do when you go to Cuba on an American passport

Interesting, I didn't know that...
"Generosity is giving more than you can, and pride is taking less than you need." - Khalil Gibran
 
IAD777
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RE: Dubai - Tel Aviv

Fri Feb 11, 2005 11:55 pm

I have several israeli stamps in my passport, but I also have Jordanian stamps and a Jordanian visa. Will the two cancel each other out and allow me to visit Lebanon? (wishfull thinking)

I've always thought it was so bizarre to not allow people into a country because of the stamps in their passport, especially if you have happen to have tons of stampsfrom all over the world (which i'm lucky enough to have). I asked that question a while ago, because I was planning a honeymoon in Malaysia (eventually chose Thailand) but didn't want to have to worry about arriving in Kuala Lumpur and being denied entry.

I have a buddy who is going to Cuba soon...he's having the same issue. He's booked his travel from Panama to Cuba and back (doing some travel in central america before hand). He's only using Canadian Dollars (not putting anything on a credit card) and when he arrives in Havana, he'll have to ask them not to stamp his passport.

BA, when I get a new passport in a few years I'll email you for some tips on Beirut.
History shall be kind to me; for I intend to write it -WSC
 
nycflyer
Posts: 1288
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RE: Dubai - Tel Aviv

Sat Feb 12, 2005 12:59 am

BA - technically, would an Arab (non-Jordanian/Egyptian) passport holder be allowed into Israel? Obviously this doesn't happen much, but in theory, do Israelis have a reciprocal rule barring Arab passports?

Similarly, what would happen to say, a Lebanese with an Israeli stamp (say the Lebanese guy wanted to go to Palestine). Would Beirut airport still charge him $2000 USD? Would a Lebanese passport holder still encounter trouble from his Israeli stamp?

IAD 777 - no worries about the Cuba thing. I have a Cuba stamp in my U.S. passport and never have I had a problem. American immigration staff never flip through passports to look at other stamps (unless they have reason to suspect you of something).
 
qr332
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RE: Dubai - Tel Aviv

Sat Feb 12, 2005 1:09 am

SFOMEX,
My advice is finish the Arab countries first, then visit Israel, as you will not be able to enter the Arab countries if you have the Israeli stamp in your passport. I think stamps used to be issued on seperate pieces of paper at TLV in the past, but i'm not sure if they still do this.

IAD777,
I think they would. Its a strange procedure IMO, but one we have to live with unfortunatley.

I think if peace is achieved between the Arab world and Israel, the biggest improvment in terms of aviation would not necessarly be the routes that would open up (although they would be popular, as many Palestinians residing in the gulf would be able to enter the West Bank much quicker than through AMM if they used TLV), but in terms of airspace there would be many improvments. With RJ, the aircraft flies directly through Israeli airspace when going to Europe, but with ME, it has to divert around Israeli airspace, and because they two countries are neighbours, it is an obstacle for ME, and if removed, flight time would be reduced.
"The greatest threat to knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge."
 
IAD777
Topic Author
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RE: Dubai - Tel Aviv

Sat Feb 12, 2005 1:35 am

Interesting that the Israeli's let you in with Arab stamps, but not vica-versa.
History shall be kind to me; for I intend to write it -WSC
 
jcavinato
Posts: 392
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RE: Dubai - Tel Aviv

Sat Feb 12, 2005 2:03 am

How about Royal Jordanian and take a cab from Amman to the border, walk through, then another cab from there. That's all quite easy. Relationships between Israel and Jordan are good; they have a free trade agreement; and, Jordan is now handling a lot of low cost labor manufacturing overflow for Israel.
 
nycflyer
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RE: Dubai - Tel Aviv

Sat Feb 12, 2005 2:26 am

Jcavinato -

Crossing the Allenby/King Hussein bridge from Jordan to Israel/West Bank was one of the most painful experiences of my life. It took me four hours beginning to end because you have to wait for this annoying shuttle bus, and you get treated like crap the entire way (even for well-dressed Americans - you'd think several billion in aid would make the process a little smoother). Every person was interrogated for about 20 minutes, my bags were taken away from me and searched, article by article.

Unless you're willing to pay US$70 for the VIP service, which takes 20 minutes, crossing by land is neither easy nor fun. (incidentally, crossing from Israel/West Bank back to Jordan is far easier). That's why TLV is the airport of choice if your destination is the West Bank.
 
IAD777
Topic Author
Posts: 120
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RE: Dubai - Tel Aviv

Sat Feb 12, 2005 4:54 am

Allenby is a royal pain in the ass. Has anyone been on an Israel-Egypt/Jordan flight?

History shall be kind to me; for I intend to write it -WSC
 
royisher
Posts: 73
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RE: Dubai - Tel Aviv

Sat Feb 12, 2005 5:44 am

Well, I'm a israeli, and used to be alot in Jordan, from 95 to 99, every month atleast twice, and I just love Jordan, and can't say we always had cold days, as someone stated above.

I flew couple of times TLV-Amman, nice flight, Royal Jordanian, of course connecting to somewhere else.

My mother, went into Indonesia, which is a muslim country, which Israel has no diplomatic relations afaik, with a Israeli passport...!

I hope there will be a TLV-DXB flight, I really want to go and sleep in that hotel once :P

I have an Aussie passport, but im too scared to go into there, not very nice if they find out your related to Israel I think, really could be bad in the end  Sad

Anyway, I hope well have here peace, and quite! so we can all go to Riyadh, Dubai, Daha, Kuwait and more! Really wish to visit those places!

And Emirates visiting Tel Aviv airport, oh I see all the Israeli spotters (which are quite a nice group of people, just without good enough cam's for A.net), pointing History!!!
 
BA
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RE: Dubai - Tel Aviv

Sat Feb 12, 2005 6:40 am

NYCFlyer,

BA - technically, would an Arab (non-Jordanian/Egyptian) passport holder be allowed into Israel? Obviously this doesn't happen much, but in theory, do Israelis have a reciprocal rule barring Arab passports?

Technically yes, however, if an Arab citizen entering an Arab country is found to have an Israeli stamp, they will be jailed.

This was actually a very big problem during the Israeli occupation of Southern Lebanon.

When Israel was occupying southern Lebanon, Lebanese citizens living in the south had to go down to Tel Aviv whenever they wanted to leave the country and thus, had Israeli stamps in their Lebanese passports.

When Israel finally pulled out in 2000, it took many years for the Lebanese government to clear the many Lebanese citizens who resided in the Israeli occupation zone.

My sister has a friend who had to go through Tel Aviv a few times because she lived in the south in the occupation zone.

They had to go to court in Lebanon and eventually they were "cleared."

The Lebanese government had to do a lot of background checks to make sure that those who cooperated or spied with Israel were prosecuted, while those who didn't and simply traveled into Israeli territory for travel purposes were cleared.

It was a hectic and annoying process, but all Lebanese citizens who were in the occupation zone in the south have now been cleared I believe.

Similarly, what would happen to say, a Lebanese with an Israeli stamp (say the Lebanese guy wanted to go to Palestine). Would Beirut airport still charge him $2000 USD? Would a Lebanese passport holder still encounter trouble from his Israeli stamp?

He would be jailed, unless it is for the situation I described above. If you lived in the occupation zone in the south and thus had to travel through Israel whenever you wanted to leave.

However, say I for example decide to go visit Israel and then later on visit Lebanon and they find an Israeli stamp in my Lebanese passport, I will go to jail.

The $2000USD is only imposed on foreign nationals with Israeli stamps and the $200USD is actually a penalty fee imposed on the airline for not checking the passports properly, not the passenger. The passenger has to pay for the return ticket and this is of course arranged by the airline.

IAD777,

Interesting that the Israeli's let you in with Arab stamps, but not vica-versa.

I think one of the reasons is they worry about Israeli spies.

Lebanon has jailed a few people with Israeli stamps who were entering Lebanon who were found to have suspicious documents. In the past, Lebanese authorities have caught Israeli spies, most of whom were Arab (Palestinians) who had been hired by the Mossad to do spy work.

However, Israeli spies still come in. They come in with passports of other nationalities and even well-made fake passports.

There was recently an issue about Israeli mossad agents trying to acquire New Zealand passports illegally and New Zealand got furiated and pulled their ambassador from Israel.
"Generosity is giving more than you can, and pride is taking less than you need." - Khalil Gibran
 
L410Turbolet
Posts: 5421
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RE: Dubai - Tel Aviv

Sat Feb 12, 2005 7:18 am

I wonder how long it will take for the Arab countries to realize that with these shortsighted and stupid measures inspired by blind hate they are only punishing themselves and those potential visitor, who i.e. by coincidence happen to have Israeli stamp from their business trip last year.

I mean it is hardly surprising from the medieval kingdom of backwardness aka Saudi Arabia to be hostile not only to Israelis but everyone non-Muslim, but I'd expect Lebanon, which so desperately wants to be perceived as a democratic and free country, to be in a bit different class. The assumption that if you have an Israeli stamp you gotta be a spy is just so stupid it's not even funny.
I mean if Mossad would REALLY WANT to sneak someone in, wouldn't they provide the guy with fake identity/passport? Duh?

 
qr332
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RE: Dubai - Tel Aviv

Sat Feb 12, 2005 7:27 am

I also believe that the procedure does nothing useful - Potential tourists are bushed away, and if Israel wanted to spy on an Arab country, I think they would be smarter than sending them in that simply. But, to be fair, quite a few Arabs have problems with security at TLV too.

L410,
I am not saying it is right, but I think the reason Lebanon is so harsh when it comes to this is because of the many conflicts it has had in the past with Israel. I completley agree on the part about the assumptions, as any person could have gone to Israel for tourism and business completley innocently. There's a Lebanese reality TV show based in Beirut called Superstar, in which people from all over the Arab world try to get in to, and become part of it based on their skills. Some VERY skilled Palestinians could not take part due to them being Israeli citizens and carrying Israeli passports, as they were able to stay inside Israel post-1948. Most Arab countries have much more relaxed measures than Lebanon and Syria when it comes to Israeli stamps, but I guess that just the way things are, and they wont change until theres peace.
"The greatest threat to knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge."
 
L410Turbolet
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RE: Dubai - Tel Aviv

Sat Feb 12, 2005 7:40 am

Lebanon is so harsh when it comes to this is because of the many conflicts it has had in the past with Israel.

Well, EVERYBODY knows that! Why hassle third uninvolved parties (airlines, pax) because of some ridiculous political statement the gov't is trying to make? I just don't get it.
 
BA
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RE: Dubai - Tel Aviv

Sat Feb 12, 2005 7:48 am

I wonder how long it will take for the Arab countries to realize that with these shortsighted and stupid measures inspired by blind hate they are only punishing themselves and those potential visitor, who i.e. by coincidence happen to have Israeli stamp from their business trip last year.

I agree that in general the rule is pretty much pointless nowadays. However perhaps you should look at the Arab/Israeli climate currently and maybe you will realize why such measures exist.

I mean it is hardly surprising from the medieval kingdom of backwardness aka Saudi Arabia to be hostile not only to Israelis but everyone non-Muslim, but I'd expect Lebanon, which so desperately wants to be perceived as a democratic and free country, to be in a bit different class.

Actually Lebanon is much more strict about Israeli stamps than Saudi Arabia is.

Saudi Arabia like the UAE and other gulf countries usually will still let you in if you have an Israeli stamp.

There are no issues for non-Muslims entering Saudi Arabia.

There are thousands of non-Muslims living in Saudi Arabia and thousands leave and enter the country every day on business.

Saudi Arabia is a very business oriented society.

Lebanon and Syria are the most strict on this policy. Infact, Lebanon is even more strict than Syria is.

Lebanon and Syria are currently technically in a state of war with Israel. Israel is occupying the Golan Heights in Syria and Lebanon has a claim to a small region in the Golan Heights called the Shebaa Farms.

Lebanese immigration policies are infact a lot more strict than Syria's. For example, any Arab citizen can enter Syria without needing a visa (except Somalia which is in a state of anarchy with no central government).

However, all Arab citizens except GCC citizens need a visa to enter Lebanon.

The assumption that if you have an Israeli stamp you gotta be a spy is just so stupid it's not even funny.

It's part of the boycott on Israel and you should look at Israel/Lebanon history during the past 30 years before you jump to conclusions.

I mean if Mossad would REALLY WANT to sneak someone in, wouldn't they provide the guy with fake identity/passport? Duh?

That's exactly how the Israeli spy ring consisting of Palestinian, Egyptian, and a Tunisian individual entered Lebanon last year.

Like I said, I think the Israeli stamp rule is stupid (and is now loosely enforced in many Arab countries), but I am simply giving you the reason why these rules exist. It all has to do with the political climate.

[Edited 2005-02-11 23:50:32]
"Generosity is giving more than you can, and pride is taking less than you need." - Khalil Gibran
 
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yyz717
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RE: Dubai - Tel Aviv

Sat Feb 12, 2005 7:55 am

Dubai-TLV flights are unlikely any time soon (obviously, we all agree on that). Prior to nonstops between TLV & Arab cities (other than CAI), obviously diplomatic relations are needed.

The first step in any bilateral agreement is overflight capability. It's reasonable that if there is ever a thawing of relations between Israel and the Arab world, overflights will come before nonstop flights. I would like to think that overflight capability (Israel flying over Arab countries and vice-versa) could somehow happen without formal talks or diplomatic recognition, but it's unlikely.

If/when EL AL and Arab carriers become privately owned with a 100% profit motive, then there will be commercial gains to be made from allowing overflights. This may provide some impetus.

I do however agree though that if direct flights betw Israel and the Arab world ever "blossom", that Emirates will be an aggressive competitor. I can certainly see Emirates being a leading trailblazer in this market, simply based on their commercial prowess to date.
I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
LY744
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RE: Dubai - Tel Aviv

Sat Feb 12, 2005 11:35 am

Interesting picture indeed BA.



Nice to see the little loop your own national airline has to take around most of your own country, which is populated (as to not say "occupied") by Syrian SAM systems.


LY744.
Pacifism only works if EVERYBODY practices it
 
BA
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RE: Dubai - Tel Aviv

Sat Feb 12, 2005 1:07 pm

Nice to see the little loop your own national airline has to take around most of your own country, which is populated (as to not say "occupied") by Syrian SAM systems.

Actually the loop is done because of Rayak Air Base, a Lebanese airbase near Baalbeck.

Flights are not allowed to get anywhere near the base.

In the past, flights infact had to go as far north as Tartus in Syria before turning inland.

Then a few years ago, the Lebanese government reduced the closed airspace radius around Rayak to allow aircraft to fly over the Mount Lebanon range to make flights shorter. It reduced flight time to Amman by 30 minutes.

Another reason is around 1/4th of Lebanese airspace in the south is illegally closed by Israel.

Israel does not allow any aircraft to fly south of Saida. They drew a line stating that no aircraft can fly south of it.

This is why flights that take-off to the south from Beirut have to quickly make a sharp turn north as to not get near this boundary set by Israel...

There are no SAMs in Lebanon. Only AAA and they are all operated by the Lebanese Army.

The Syrian Army only has 14,000 troops and some old trucks and Jeeps in Lebanon.

The Lebanese Army has over 71,000 troops and it has trucks, Jeeps, light tanks, medium tanks, APCs, AAA mobile systems, UH-1 Huey helicopters, rubber inflatable boats, and PT Boats.

[Edited 2005-02-12 05:28:13]
"Generosity is giving more than you can, and pride is taking less than you need." - Khalil Gibran
 
CXA330300
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RE: Dubai - Tel Aviv

Sat Feb 12, 2005 11:15 pm

Currently, the very few people travelling this route usually travel through Amman.

Dual citizenship helps a lot, going in to Israel on one passport and into the UAE on the other is easier.
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Flying Belgian
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RE: Dubai - Tel Aviv

Sat Feb 12, 2005 11:51 pm

Picture is indeed interesting and revealing !

Economically, a DXB-TLV link would make sense according to me. Many Jewish and Arabs go beyond the politics difficulties to make business between each other believe me !!!

When money is at stake...

FB.
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LY744
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RE: Dubai - Tel Aviv

Sun Feb 13, 2005 4:56 am

Why does an airbase of a country with virtually no airforce (except a few Hueys) need to have closed airspace around it?


LY744.
Pacifism only works if EVERYBODY practices it
 
BA
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RE: Dubai - Tel Aviv

Sun Feb 13, 2005 5:07 am

LY744,

Why does an airbase of a country with virtually no airforce (except a few Hueys) need to have closed airspace around it?

I really don't know, perhaps for security issues.

When the Lebanese Air Force had Mirage III fighters, they were based out of there, however those were sold to Pakistan many years ago so as far as I know, they only have some Hueys based there (most are based in Beirut). But the base itself is still active and open.

If you'd like to see the closed airspace area, take a look at some Jeppeson charts of Lebanon, it is clearly shown.

They're also pretty sensitive about coming near the base.

However, I think they might reduce restrictions soon or get rid of them entirely because of the new regional airline starting up, Phoenician Airlines which will operate frequent flights between Beirut and Damascus.

I should also mention that Kleyate Airport in the north, north of Tripoli which is closed also for some reason has a small radius of airspace around it that is closed.

No idea why.
"Generosity is giving more than you can, and pride is taking less than you need." - Khalil Gibran
 
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yyz717
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RE: Dubai - Tel Aviv

Sun Feb 13, 2005 5:32 am

The great irony about the lack of flights between Israel and many Arab countries is that it may take an emergency landing of an EL AL flight in an Arab country or perhaps an emergency landing of an Arab airliner in Israel to kickstart at least a one-off diplomatic exchange. In a strange way, I kinda hope this happens if it promotes at least some dialogue if no one gets killed.

The first direct talks of any nature between Taiwan and Red China were a few years ago when a China Airlines 742 was highjacked to the PRC. Direct talks were needed to retrieve the Taiwanese 742.

I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.

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