John
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Is It Safe To Say, The E-jets Killed The B717?

Sat Feb 12, 2005 3:53 am

In my opinion, probably so. Boeing didn't show a whole lot of confidence in this airplane by failing to agressively market a family of 717s by offering a "lite" shortened version 717-100 to compete with the RJs or a stretch -300 version with longer range.
 
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RE: Is It Safe To Say, The E-jets Killed The B717?

Sat Feb 12, 2005 4:00 am

No commonality with anything was also a large factor. That plus the outrageous rates for leasing it to TWA caused AA to turn away from an aircraft they may very well have otherwise ordered. Instead they dropped the F-100 and never replaced it. What I have always wondered is if they could have developed a "737-light" instead; 717 body and 737 cockpit and engines.
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RE: Is It Safe To Say, The E-jets Killed The B717?

Sat Feb 12, 2005 4:04 am

the 717 market was evaporated a long time ago. Thats why the fokker 70 and 100 ceased production. Dornier was also planning to build a jet of the Embraer 190 size the Dornier 728 if I'm not mistaken. Also the russians are comtemplating on whether to proceed with their Russian Regional Jet programme.
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RE: Is It Safe To Say, The E-jets Killed The B717?

Sat Feb 12, 2005 4:06 am

John,

I would say that Boeing's decision to not push a family of 717s was more a result of their not wanting the larger models to compete with the 737. I agree with you in that I believe that Boeing should have really pushed this aircraft and the family, regardless of some competition with the 737. However, that is just my opinion.
 
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RE: Is It Safe To Say, The E-jets Killed The B717?

Sat Feb 12, 2005 4:08 am

Boeing would never go aginst their own products . Remember they killed off the MD-11 because of percieved threat aginst their 747, despite the plane's popularity with freight companies.
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moman
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RE: Is It Safe To Say, The E-jets Killed The B717?

Sat Feb 12, 2005 4:13 am

I am also saddened that Boeing is stopping production of the last DC-9 derivative.

I agree with you in that I believe that Boeing should have really pushed this aircraft and the family, regardless of some competition with the 737

Agree as well. Anyone who disagrees only needs to study marketing. All companies make products that mainly complement each other but also compete in a way. The Ford Explorer and Ford Excursion are good examples. They both do the same thing, go the same places, and can seat almost the same amount of people. Some want the smaller car, and some want the larger.

AA could use the 717 on high density routes (ORD-STL) or even STL-DFW and use the MD-80 series jets for the longer flights.

Too bad AA won't buy them. I think they would fit in very nicely.

Boeing, by not keeping the 717 series has eliminated a model, and hence will drive customers of that model to either bigger planes which they may not want or need, or to a competitor who offers a better deal (A319).

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ken4556
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RE: Is It Safe To Say, The E-jets Killed The B717?

Sat Feb 12, 2005 6:08 am

I firmly believe that, because the 717 had its hertiage as a DC9, the Pilot Unions would never let the Express Carrier's pilots fly it. But since the E-jets are new, they have (or at least they think they do) a better chance to be able to bargin with the pilots union to have the lower priced pilots fly the planes under the express banners.

Boeing could not do anything about this or be responsible for this no matter how good the economics of the 717 are.

 
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RE: Is It Safe To Say, The E-jets Killed The B717?

Sat Feb 12, 2005 6:16 am

McD killed the MD-11 when they designed a plane which did not match its contemporaries economics.
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RE: Is It Safe To Say, The E-jets Killed The B717?

Sat Feb 12, 2005 6:37 am

In my opinion, probably so. Boeing didn't show a whole lot of confidence in this airplane

McDonnel Dogulas, the (initial) contractor of the MD-95 bragged that the whole program cost no more than $300 million dollars. It was the same DC-9-30 wing that the NW DC-9s use today... it was an obsolete airframe jazzed up with new engines and avionics. Hardly Boeing's fault that it failed...
 
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RE: Is It Safe To Say, The E-jets Killed The B717?

Sat Feb 12, 2005 6:50 am

What killed the Boeing 717 was Boeing... plan and simple. Boeing is the biggest factor in the 717's demise. The 717 was just the red headed step child Boeing was stuck with in order to marry McDonnel Douglas.....and now its so sick of taking care of what it didn't want it sent it to live with its other parent and will clean out and maybe sell its room (Long Beach assembly)
 
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RE: Is It Safe To Say, The E-jets Killed The B717?

Sat Feb 12, 2005 7:06 am

The FD 728 & 928 were killed off. As was the Avro RJX program. Bombardier's own C-Series program has been shelved time and time again. A318 and B736 haven's told too many copies either. RRJ (Russian Regional Jet) hasn't made much progress. Haven't seen much about the AVIC II RJ(I forget it's model designation. or is it AVIC I...I know one of them is jointly building E145 planes, and the other is building a RJ from scrach with fuselage mounted engines). No surprise the 717 is gone.
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RE: Is It Safe To Say, The E-jets Killed The B717?

Sat Feb 12, 2005 7:07 am

it was an obsolete airframe jazzed up with new engines and avionics. Hardly Boeing's fault that it failed...

The DC-9 wing is, today, still one of the most advanced wing designs in commercial aviation. They simply couldn't make it any better. The only reason they redesigned it for the MD-80 was that the wings were too small to provide enough lift.

By the same token, the 737NG is nothing more than a jazzed-up 737-200. Granted the wings are new, but the basic body and frame are the same. The 737NGs have done quite well, thank you.
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RE: Is It Safe To Say, The E-jets Killed The B717?

Sat Feb 12, 2005 7:26 am

bombardier C-series shelved? since when? I think they are still working on that...no?

.. in that note.. why is bombardier getting into this market with a plane that offers hardly any innovation? it will be just another F-100. I just read in "flight international" that they dont want to get into the all composite fuselage, like the 787, because "Boeing doesnt know what they dont know about composites and bombardier doesnt want to experiment and be first". .. so, then why not wait until the 787 comes and see what happens with the composite fuselage?!?... then they will be able to truly offer a new innovative product for a lighter plane for the 100seat market. right?


 
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RE: Is It Safe To Say, The E-jets Killed The B717?

Sat Feb 12, 2005 7:26 am

By the same token, the 737NG is nothing more than a jazzed-up 737-200. Granted the wings are new, but the basic body and frame are the same.

That is a completly false anaology.

The DC-9 wing is, today, still one of the most advanced wing designs in commercial aviation. They simply couldn't make it any better.

It's was also completly unsuited for today's market needs.

I really don't mean to emply that old = bad, because the Concorde and 747 wings are, likewise, some of the best in existence. But in terms of OEW, payload, and range... the 717 structure missed the mark and was unable to scale adequetly.

What killed the Boeing 717 was Boeing... plan and simple. Boeing is the biggest factor in the 717's demise.

The MD-95 was quite dead on the vine when Boeing got hold of it... I'd actually attribute it's life until now to Boeing.
 
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RE: Is It Safe To Say, The E-jets Killed The B717?

Sat Feb 12, 2005 7:29 am

Timing and perceptions of the B717 cause it to be unsuccessful. Also, nobody seemed to want anything in that market as ODwyerPW said earlier.

The ERJ series is considered part of the Regional jet market which covers anything up to 100 seats. I doubt it took a bite into any part of the B717 market directly, its a entirely different aircraft for different needs.
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RE: Is It Safe To Say, The E-jets Killed The B717?

Sat Feb 12, 2005 9:29 am

"The ERJ series is considered part of the Regional jet market which covers anything up to 100 seats. I doubt it took a bite into any part of the B717 market directly, its a entirely different aircraft for different needs."

We are not talking about the ERJ series, we are talking about the E170/E190 series. If that is what you meant, then you are absolutely wrong. The 190/195 are a very direct competitor to the 717. Hell, they compete with the A318 and 736 - if you think they don't then ask youself: had jetBlue not chosen the E190, what plane would they be flying?

mrocktor

[Edited 2005-02-12 01:31:16]
 
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RE: Is It Safe To Say, The E-jets Killed The B717?

Sat Feb 12, 2005 9:35 am

of course the E170-190 took away business from B717.....it is new and improved technology.....a new aircraft with much better everything.....although I think the B717 was already done even before the E's came around...
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RE: Is It Safe To Say, The E-jets Killed The B717?

Sat Feb 12, 2005 9:38 am

yes the e170/190 are much more efficient than the 717 and are a great fit for mainline flying. I can hardly wait to get on CHQ E170 with first. I am CRJ'd out.


I am wondering when people will stop calling then RJs? RJ's are defined as up to 70 seats not 70 +


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RE: Is It Safe To Say, The E-jets Killed The B717?

Sat Feb 12, 2005 9:49 am

While I really like the Ejets, I'm not seeing an order lost to Embraer that would have gone to the 717. B6? No. AC? Ok, a maybe. The E170 orders? Nope, those have been stealing from the Bombardier 700. Long term, it probably killed Boeing's hopes, but no real sales (yet).

I join the opinion of others that the 717 would have been a success if Boeing was willing to let it compete with the 737. FL should have been allowed to buy a long range 712. The rumor mill suggests WN would like more 73G's but production constraints have gotten in the way. In my opinion, Boeing will be needing the 717 production space as the market recovers and 737 orders flow in.

Oh, the rumor mill is that the C-series will be launched at the Paris air show. I'm giving it a 50/50 chance.

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RE: Is It Safe To Say, The E-jets Killed The B717?

Sat Feb 12, 2005 2:32 pm

regarding the C-Series being shelved... a better word would have been tabled, as I was implying that the idea is periodically revived, then set aside, then revived. Never implied that it was ever cancelled.
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RE: Is It Safe To Say, The E-jets Killed The B717?

Sat Feb 12, 2005 6:45 pm

Well, according to Boeing, it did have better economics its competitors, the A318 and 736. Unfortunately for the 717, it was never stretched as a 713, and thus it couldn't match the economics of the -700.

 
dacman
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RE: Is It Safe To Say, The E-jets Killed The B717?

Sun Feb 13, 2005 2:01 am

I can't add much to what has already been said, but it was definitely Boeing that killed the MD-95 (717) by not pushing the aircraft more.


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Just about any suggestions coming from Long Beach to Seattle (Chicago) regarding enhancements in range or competitive financing were all but ignored by Boeing. Sure Boeing offered the -300 and businessjet versions but these derivatives were never pushed like other Boeing aircraft. Additionally when a customer would approach Boeing about the MD-95 (717), the sales team basically said yes the MD-95 is a great airplane and would work for your operation, but look at the 737NG too, it may work a bit better in your business plan.


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It's to bad the MD-95 is going away, it's a great airplane and any airline folks you talk to that has anything to do with the MD-95 just LUV it, never any negative comments.


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I'll miss seeing and photographing Douglas Commercial airliners coming off the production line in Long Beach, another piece of aviation history gone. At least we still have the C-17A Globemaster III, which now becomes the last of the Douglas line and the last true connection to the great Donald Douglas.

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RE: Is It Safe To Say, The E-jets Killed The B717?

Sun Feb 13, 2005 1:16 pm

"In my opinion, Boeing will be needing the 717 production space as the market recovers and 737 orders flow in."

They won't be needing THAT space; it's probably being sold for real estate development as we speak. The Renton, WA site can more than handle any projected upturn in 737 output, particularly with the demise of the 757. As nice and sturdy a little workhorse as the 717 is, I agree it's overshadowed by the EMB-190/195 series, a thoroughly modern design. Despite the improvements over the earlier DC/MD series jets and being well suited for the routes it's used for, the 717 is dated compared to the large Embraer line, its most direct competitor; the Embraer's more efficient wing alone says a lot. Add a currently stagnant market for this size class and lack of commonality with BCA's other single-aisle product, the 737, along with failed attempts to further develop the line and it's clear the 717 had too many cards stacked against it.

"McD killed the MD-11 when they designed a plane which did not match its contemporaries economics."

The early MD-11 fuel-burn and range shortfalls were a blow this ultimately magnificent airliner never recovered from. Despite that McDonnell-Douglas corrected these design and engineering flaws, partly by cracking the whip on the engine maker, and got the MD-11 to EXCEED its promised performance, the embarassment and orders cancelled due to the early problems remained a blight on its otherwise good service history, aside from a number of losses.
 
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RE: Is It Safe To Say, The E-jets Killed The B717?

Thu Feb 17, 2005 6:46 am

got the MD-11 to EXCEED its promised performance,

But even so, could it match the 777? I'm assuming that it could match the A343, overall.
 
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RE: Is It Safe To Say, The E-jets Killed The B717?

Thu Feb 17, 2005 7:11 am

I believe Dacman hits the nail square on the head, SAS just went looking for 10 more MD90's (which Boeing also killed) and if there were a 717-3 or 400 they could have offered that in lieu of them not only not finding any 90's, but dumping the ones they have to Nordic Leisure and HELLO. Joe Leonard summed it up perfectly, he asked (pleaded) Boeing to make a 717-3 and they pointed to the 73NG, see ya!!
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RE: Is It Safe To Say, The E-jets Killed The B717?

Thu Feb 17, 2005 7:29 am



Quoting D950 (reply 24):
SAS just went looking for 10 more MD90's (which Boeing also killed)



SAS are getting rid of all their remaining MD90s. They will be gone from the fleet in October 2005. They still have -82 -83 -87s. Dont think theyre looking for more of them.
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RE: Is It Safe To Say, The E-jets Killed The B717?

Thu Feb 17, 2005 7:33 am

SAS is getting rid of the 90's because they couldn't find any more with the config they were looking for, they have absolutely no problem with them. They were looking for over a year, hemmed and hawed, then Lion took all the ex Reno/AA 90,s and they were left with their thumb up their ____
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PHLBOS
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RE: Is It Safe To Say, The E-jets Killed The B717?

Thu Feb 17, 2005 8:28 am

I recently read through a back-issue (Feb. 2000) of Airways magazine that covered FL's launch of the 717. The very first sentence of the article basically stated that nobody thought that the 717 (MD-95) would survive the Boeing merger. So no one can blame the E170/190s for the production stoppage of the 717. Had B6 not opted for the E190 (which hasn't even entered service yet), would anybody think that the type would survive? Had J7/FL and TW not already had a committed order for the 717 (MD-95), the line would have never seen production following the Boeing merger. BTW, TW was also planning on receiving A318s as well. Needless to say, no TW A318 ever saw the light of day.

As it's been stated in past threads (long before the E170/190 came out), the big thing that was going to and has killed 717 sales (along with the A318 & 736) was many carriers (mostly legacy) opted for ERJ-130/145s and/or CRJs instead to handle routes that were previously flown in 732s, DC-9s and F100s nearly a decade earlier. If I'm not mistaken, I believe that rjs were originally intended to only replace turbo-props.

A couple things worth noting:

1. The production of the 717 will last about 7 years with the summer 2006 shutdown. That in itself is a testimony for a product that everyone thought would be never see production.

2. The only reason why production of the 736 and A318 will still exist despite having worse sales than the 717 is because of fleet commonality with the 737NG and A32X series respectively. I think everyone will agree, that if it weren't for that, these 2 types would've been gone long before the 717.
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JDD1
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RE: Is It Safe To Say, The E-jets Killed The B717?

Thu Feb 17, 2005 11:18 pm

Boeing killed the 717 when they developed and sold the 737-600 to SAS. The loss of the SAS order was the worst nightmare come true for MDDouglas.
 
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RE: Is It Safe To Say, The E-jets Killed The B717?

Thu Feb 17, 2005 11:35 pm

What killed it???

3 - 100 seat 717 flights per day to a city, or

6 - 50 seat RJ flights per day to a city, with incremental growth just now scratching the surface of a 70/50 seat mix to the same city on the routes the 717 works best in.

BBD is taking a big gamble with the C-Series. Maybe it sells, but maybe it doesn't... At least today anyway. Incremental growth will demand it, the question is... How soon?
 
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RE: Is It Safe To Say, The E-jets Killed The B717?

Thu Feb 17, 2005 11:41 pm

The MD-95 programme was dead in the water before the ink dried on the Boeing merger. The same can be said about the rest of the MDC aircraft lines.

With only 50 initial orders from ValuJet (later AirTran) its future was questionable. And this was in the boom days of the mid to later 90s when EVERYBODY was in expansion mode. A company cannot market something that the market doesn't want. And it hasn't exactly been like the entire 70-110 seat market hasn't exactly seen anywhere near the sales levels of the 50 seaters or the 130-180 seaters. Again suggests that the market is not there in the numbers that it would take to get Boeing to push the 717 and persue derivatives.
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RE: Is It Safe To Say, The E-jets Killed The B717?

Fri Feb 18, 2005 12:19 am

Perhaps the 100-seat aircraft market isn't as lucrative as "everyone" claims it is, anymore. With many airports completedly crammed to capacity, many flights operating with poor load factors and high fuel prices putting pressure on airlines, maybe we will see a shift to larger aircraft again. Maybe the future will see fewer departures with larger aircraft to ease congestion, pollute less and up yields.

There have been very few huge orders going to BBD and EMB lately, compared to the huge orders they received 3-5 years ago for the CRJ200 and ERJ145 aircraft, the 717, 736 and 318 aren't selling like hotcakes either.

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RE: Is It Safe To Say, The E-jets Killed The B717?

Fri Feb 18, 2005 12:24 am

"It was the same DC-9-30 wing that the NW DC-9s use today"
Isn't it also the same wing that the 1Time, Airborne Express, USA Navy, AeroCalifornia, Cebu, AeroCaribe, USA Jet, Ameristar, UM Air, and USAF DC-9's use today as well?

[Edited 2005-02-17 16:26:03]
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RE: Is It Safe To Say, The E-jets Killed The B717?

Fri Feb 18, 2005 12:24 am

but Midwest uses 717's on their signature service
 
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RE: Is It Safe To Say, The E-jets Killed The B717?

Fri Feb 18, 2005 12:26 am


Quoting Midwest717 (reply 33):
but Midwest uses 717's on their signature service


Yes, but is YX willing and/or able to place additional orders?
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