OPNLguy
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FlyI Aircraft Repossessed

Sun Feb 13, 2005 12:03 am

ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
Cactus739
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RE: FlyI Aircraft Repossessed

Sun Feb 13, 2005 12:16 am

I've seen cars reposessed.... but how do you reposess a CRJ?
You can't fix stupid.... - Ron White
 
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ERJ170
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RE: FlyI Aircraft Repossessed

Sun Feb 13, 2005 12:20 am

at 30,000 feet.. a MD11 pulls up beside the CRJ, seving papers, telling them to pull over.. LOL
Aiming High and going far..
 
N751PR
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RE: FlyI Aircraft Repossessed

Sun Feb 13, 2005 12:31 am

Hey it happened with Philippine Airlines back in 1998... Embarrassment
(wellI dunno about an MD-11 pulling up... Laugh out loud)
"Ladies and Gentlemen it's happy hour. You will get two approaches for the price of one."
 
UnitedTristar
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RE: FlyI Aircraft Repossessed

Sun Feb 13, 2005 12:32 am


It Happened to RG too a few years ago. From what I hear from the RG repo's they arrive at the city where the aircraft is ready to depart from with federal marshals and pilots who work for the leasing company. After everyone has got off the aircraft the marshals serve the papers and take possession of the aircraft. I cannot imagine the sitting in the gate and having the aircraft repo'ed. What dose the gate agent say. "unfortunately we have to cancel...our aircraft was just repossessed?!"

-m

 Big thumbs up

 
avek00
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RE: FlyI Aircraft Repossessed

Sun Feb 13, 2005 12:32 am

It won't be long before the "Independence" rebellion at Dulles is finally put down, and IAD goes back to its rightful place as a colony for a full-service legacy airline...
Live life to the fullest.
 
Bicoastal
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RE: FlyI Aircraft Repossessed

Sun Feb 13, 2005 12:37 am

I posted the same about two hours earlier. No big deal but it's always good to search first.
http://www.airliners.net/discussions/general_aviation/read.main/1955213/

I'm not a fan of Independence Air at all. Management is cocky and the shareholders have been screwed by them. I hope they go back to being a United Express carrier and making money again....with new management.
Airliners.net has many forums. It has spell check and search functions. Use them before posting!
 
zvezda
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RE: FlyI Aircraft Repossessed

Sun Feb 13, 2005 12:37 am

While I agree that Indy's prospects aren't great, they only have to hold on longer than UA. If UA folds first, Indy would have a much easier time of it.
 
Bicoastal
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RE: FlyI Aircraft Repossessed

Sun Feb 13, 2005 12:55 am

So, Zvezda, when UA folds (and I don't think they will), Indy will start up those flights to Europe and South America?

Indy Air is in much, much worse shape than UA. The not-so-great experiment of an RJ Low (err, HIGH) Cost Carrier will be a memory for business schools to dissect.
Airliners.net has many forums. It has spell check and search functions. Use them before posting!
 
UnitedTristar
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RE: FlyI Aircraft Repossessed

Sun Feb 13, 2005 12:58 am



NO WAY united is even close to being in as bad of shape as DH!

-m

 Big thumbs up

 
ANNOYEDFA
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RE: FlyI Aircraft Repossessed

Sun Feb 13, 2005 1:02 am

AVEK00: Get real..... UAL is barely still a full service carrier and at the rate their still losing money and can't even emerge Chapter 11 they should be worried if their going to be around to keep their "colony". Maybe when another company tries to reposess UAL'S aircraft like they did a few months but a judge blocked it, it will be airbus that FLYi can use.....  Smile/happy/getting dizzy *Sigh*
"TWA... One Mission, Yours."
 
LH423
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RE: FlyI Aircraft Repossessed

Sun Feb 13, 2005 1:04 am

NO WAY united is even close to being in as bad of shape as DH!

Only because they have more assets. UA is certainly not sitting pretty though.

LH423
« On ne voit bien qu'avec le cœur. L'essentiel est invisible pour les yeux » Antoine de Saint-Exupéry
 
ken4556
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RE: FlyI Aircraft Repossessed

Sun Feb 13, 2005 1:44 am

United TriStar said: "UA is one of the only US carriers to have fuel hedged."

I thought that UA could not get fuel hedged lasy year due to its financial situation and that is one reason why the rise in fuel prices was expecially hard on UA.

Anyone know for sure?
 
phatfarmlines
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RE: FlyI Aircraft Repossessed

Sun Feb 13, 2005 1:53 am

United Airlines is taking a particularly big hit from not hedging. The Chicago-based carrier, which filed for federal bankruptcy court protection in December 2002, has been able to restructure more easily in Chapter 11, but is prevented by law from hedging while still in bankruptcy.

Quote taken directly from:
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/news/archive/2004/04/16/financial1441EDT0172.DTL

As far as DH is concerned, I think the lessor has a right to do the repossession. DH has been very quiet about releasing 4th qtr. financials, and such information is needed by lessor to determine if DH will be a going concern or not. Holding back info, especially from a publicly-trading company, is not good IMO.
 
avek00
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RE: FlyI Aircraft Repossessed

Sun Feb 13, 2005 1:56 am

"Maybe when another company tries to reposess UAL'S aircraft like they did a few months but a judge blocked it, it will be airbus that FLYi can use..."

With respect, it is YOU who needs to get real about Indy Air's situation - the airline was doomed from the start by using high-CASM aircraft for a LOW FARE operation, and still records sh*tty loads with even sh*ttier yields despite offering its tickets through conventional point of sale channels.
Live life to the fullest.
 
phatfarmlines
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RE: FlyI Aircraft Repossessed

Sun Feb 13, 2005 1:59 am

Tristar, its time to walk the talk and find proof that UAL has hedged. Until then, I do not find your info credible.
 
gigneil
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RE: FlyI Aircraft Repossessed

Sun Feb 13, 2005 2:00 am

It says that UA is not hedging fuel, and that it isn't allowed to in bankruptcy by law.


Unless you believe the law has changed, that's directly relevant to what was said above.

N
 
jc2354
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RE: FlyI Aircraft Repossessed

Sun Feb 13, 2005 2:03 am

Did I read correctly in that the plane was repossessed after missing just one payment? In some states, your car cant be repossessed until you've missed three payments.

One payment late doesn't make much sense. There must be more to the story.
If not now, then when?
 
Cactus739
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RE: FlyI Aircraft Repossessed

Sun Feb 13, 2005 2:20 am

So is this thread about Indy or United?

I have a question for Tristar though... . United lost $493 million in the 4th quarter, $308 million of that was because of fuel. That leaves $185 million that they lost, not counting fuel. You bragged about their record high load factors and performance.... my question is: So? Flying full planes and landing on time means nothing if you lose a ton of money in the process.

You can't fix stupid.... - Ron White
 
Danny
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RE: FlyI Aircraft Repossessed

Sun Feb 13, 2005 2:25 am

Once they publish bad results for January other lessors will follow. Game over FlyI.
 
Newark777
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RE: FlyI Aircraft Repossessed

Sun Feb 13, 2005 2:31 am

Does anyone know the reg# of the repossessed plane?

Harry
Why grab a Heine when you can grab a Busch?
 
mel
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RE: FlyI Aircraft Repossessed

Sun Feb 13, 2005 2:37 am

Harry,



N634BR
NO URLS in signature
 
N1120A
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RE: FlyI Aircraft Repossessed

Sun Feb 13, 2005 2:41 am

>It won't be long before the "Independence" rebellion at Dulles is finally put down, and IAD goes back to its rightful place as a colony for a full-service legacy airline... <

Well, except for that pesky guerilla jetBlue.

>It says that UA is not hedging fuel, and that it isn't allowed to in bankruptcy by law.<

UA stated in their earnings statement that they did have a minor hedge along the lines of $40 a barrel, and that is only for about 20% of their usage

>I've seen cars reposessed.... but how do you reposess a CRJ?<

Since no one answered that, I will. Basically, the "key" to an airplane, at least a legitimate one, is its MX log. If you pull that log from the plane, it is not supposed to go anywhere. After taking the log, the marshalls (In the US, Federal Marshalls always do this) lock the plane until it can be taken to the leasing company or bank's facility
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
Newark777
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RE: FlyI Aircraft Repossessed

Sun Feb 13, 2005 2:48 am

I saw a show on repo men on the Discovery Channel once, and they had to repossess a private plane. They actually just went to the airport, started the plane up, and flew off with it. Of course, in this case you are talking about an airline, and not a private citizen who might fly off and hide before authorities get there.

Harry
Why grab a Heine when you can grab a Busch?
 
AA717driver
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RE: FlyI Aircraft Repossessed

Sun Feb 13, 2005 2:51 am

Tristar--Please do not call the posters on this board ignorant. We have all observed this business from inside and outside for a long time.

Are we ingorant for not believing that UAL is simply biding its time in Ch.11, waiting to pounce on the other unsuspecting carriers out there? SWA is using hedging to make a decent profit. UAL's hedging (whatever that may be) is keeping it from sustaining even more massive losses?

Lessors who are losing valuable leasing opportunities for their aircraft will be hard pressed to continue their relationship with UAL.

To say that UAL is a "force to be reckoned with" is like predicting a patient in the Intensive Care Unit will bolt from their bed and join the Super Bowl in progress.

Stating that UAL "may survive" is about as optimistic as anyone here dares to be.TC
FL450, M.85
 
1MillionFlyer
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RE: FlyI Aircraft Repossessed

Sun Feb 13, 2005 3:06 am

I used to run a company that had a Lear 35 financed by Boeing Leasing.


It takes 3 payments to get a plane repo'd usually according to the standard contract.


Golf Foxtrot you are cleared for departure
 
jetbluefan1
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RE: FlyI Aircraft Repossessed

Sun Feb 13, 2005 3:14 am

Speaking of FlyI, does anyone know when they're going to report their 4Q04 results? JetBlue, which usually reports profits last out of any other US carrier, reported in late January.

I would think that a publicly trading company would want to let their investors know what's going on.

JetBluefan1
 
SLUAviator
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RE: FlyI Aircraft Repossessed

Sun Feb 13, 2005 3:57 am

The reason the judge blocked the repo of the UA planes is that it would have crippled UA internationally (tried to take their 767s back). He decided that it would do far more damage (and he was right) to let them go then not.

In DH's case, taking one RJ won't hurt them. With their flight reductions, they have planes sitting around not making money. Aside from how ugly it looks, it may actually be a blessing (don't have to pay for it now).
What do I know? I just fly 'em.......
 
1MillionFlyer
Posts: 1937
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RE: FlyI Aircraft Repossessed

Sun Feb 13, 2005 5:02 am

oh you still have to pay for it. and the lawyer fees, etc etc. Where banks are concerned, you always pay beleive me.

I hope they make it.
Golf Foxtrot you are cleared for departure
 
RCS763AV
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RE: FlyI Aircraft Repossessed

Sun Feb 13, 2005 5:07 am

When the Avianca crisis (99´ or 00´) a representative from the Swiss lessor of the Fokker-50s came to Bogota to take the 10 of them all. Fortunately Julio Mario Santo Domingo paid the leases from his own pocket directly to the guy. It would have been a terrible cut in Colombian regional operations if that had happened.
 
burnsie28
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RE: FlyI Aircraft Repossessed

Sun Feb 13, 2005 5:08 am

73 FlyI jets, 73 FlyI jets, repossess one, 72 FlyI jets left.....

Keep singing fellas, well get to none

Next repossesion- CRJ and A319!

As for FlyI chances of surviving.... 30%

[Edited 2005-02-12 21:11:04]
 
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lightsaber
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RE: FlyI Aircraft Repossessed

Sun Feb 13, 2005 6:03 am

ERJ170,
I laughed so hard, so the MD-11 is the equivalent of a flying crown vic?  Smile  Big thumbs up But officer, my registration is in the cargo hold...  Laugh out loud

JC2354: Many small leases are structured on monthly payments. FLYI is working on twice annual payments, so missing one is a big deal. Repossesion on this style of lease occurs 30 days after the missed or partial payment.

Burnsie28: Damn sensible putting a chance instead of a certainty on FLYI's chances. I give FLYI a 20% chance... But I really hope to be wrong. I've never flown them, but they seem to have the right attitude but the wrong business plan...

Tristar: While I know most of my friends and relatives love United, they have to get their house in order before they will do anything but shrink. My prediction if FLYI goes under is that B6 AND some other LCC's will split the gates at IAD. There will be no legacy love fest, quite the opposite. Too many communities have woken up to the loss of business (read jobs) that high airfares create.

I do feel for the passengers left at the gate!  Nuts Umm... sorry sir, I'll be late for the interview... Can we reschedule for tomorrow...  Yeah sure Seriously, I know FLYI needs to drop their fleet substantially (short term); in the long run a few dozen repossesions might help them.

Lightsaber
"They did not know it was impossible, so they did it!" - Mark Twain
 
Planesmart
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RE: FlyI Aircraft Repossessed

Sun Feb 13, 2005 6:16 am

Commercial aircraft leasing contracts are rather more comprehensive than GA.

For example, there are 'trigger' events that set off a series of steps that may result in re-possession.

These events can include:

Failing to make payments.
Failing to maintain.
Failing to insure.
Failing to maintain specified financial ratios (like current assets to current liabilities).
Action by other parties to recover debts.
War, revolution, nationalisation, civil unrest.
Sale of airline.
Sub-leasing of aircraft (usually requires leasors approval).

In the event of a re-possession, the aircraft log, all maintenance records, as well as the aircraft are possessed, so this often requires co-ordinated action in different cities/countries.

Recovering a whole leased plane can be a challenge, as no guarantees the engines originally leased with the aircraft are still attached.

Not everything is owned by the leasing company. For example, fuel, IFE, extra equipment. This will be documented, and either returned, or credited to the outstanding account.

If you have seen re-possession agents on TV, this is not usually how it is done in the commercial aviation world, especially in 2005.
 
777wt
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RE: FlyI Aircraft Repossessed

Sun Feb 13, 2005 6:24 am

The only airline I know hedged fuel costs is Southwest.
 
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lightsaber
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RE: FlyI Aircraft Repossessed

Sun Feb 13, 2005 6:35 am

Planesmart:
Good post. Welcome to my respected users list.
Oh, its not for that post alone, your overall maturity. I've noticed you pipe in quickly when $$$ are discussed!  Smile/happy/getting dizzy

Note: engines are usually (not always) on their own lease arrangement with very specific details:
1. Hours let until next overhaul (usually > 33% of engine life)
2. Keeping to a maint. plan
3. Exhaust turbine temperature limits (proof of engine life)
4. Plus basically everything you mentioned for airframes.

This allows engines to be pulled off as spares, float to another owned or leased plane, etc. Recall, you can replace an engine in 15 minutes with a crack team. Of that, 10 minutes will be the paperwork! (Seeing that in action blows me away.)

Lightsaber
"They did not know it was impossible, so they did it!" - Mark Twain
 
iowaman
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RE: FlyI Aircraft Repossessed

Sun Feb 13, 2005 7:50 am

The only airline I know hedged fuel costs is Southwest.

FL hedges and I could but wrong but I believe B6 does also.
 
IslipWN
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RE: FlyI Aircraft Repossessed

Sun Feb 13, 2005 7:56 am

N634BR is the plane that I flew on! IAD-ORF. That's so weird to think that a plane you were just on a few weeks ago has been repossessed! Michelle Quan (sp?) was the famous voice for the safety demonstration. I have pics, but didn't feel like posting a trip report because the first and last one I posted (ISP-BWI-ORF on WN) with pics, few people commented, and I got a few e-mails saying that it was not descriptive enough. O well!
 
FriendlySkies
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RE: FlyI Aircraft Repossessed

Sun Feb 13, 2005 8:26 am

If you read UA's yearly financial report, it mentions that they hedged 20% of their 2005 fuel needs. There's a post somewhere on a.net about it (not directly about the fuel, but the year end report), if you really don't believe me, go find it...

FlyI's only hope of survival is getting those A319's running fast and losing the CRJs even faster...I honestly don't see them making it through the year.
 
avek00
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RE: FlyI Aircraft Repossessed

Sun Feb 13, 2005 8:32 am

"Aside from how ugly it looks, it may actually be a blessing (don't have to pay for it now)."

Far from it - a default on obligations to one creditor/lessor stymies efforts to reach settlement deals with other creditor/lessors, as:

1. Most "concessionary" lending/leasing terms require that the lessee not be in default on any of its other obligations; and

2. The creditor/lessor bargains with the knowledge that the company could (and, statiscally speaking, nearly all companies that reach the repo stage do) file for bankruptcy, and a pre-petition settlement can be undone in certain circumstances.
Live life to the fullest.
 
A330323X
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RE: FlyI Aircraft Repossessed

Sun Feb 13, 2005 8:39 am

It says that UA is not hedging fuel, and that it isn't allowed to in bankruptcy by law.


Unless you believe the law has changed, that's directly relevant to what was said above.

N



While I don't know or care whether or not UA is hedging fuel, it's certainly not correct that hedging is not permitted in bankruptcy.

See, e.g., http://www.donlinrecano.net/dr201/mwc/04-13819/dk001718-0000.pdf, an order permitting US Airways to enter into fuel hedging transactions.
I'm the expert on here on two things, neither of which I care about much anymore.
 
ANNOYEDFA
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RE: FlyI Aircraft Repossessed

Sun Feb 13, 2005 10:21 am

I don't care how crippled they would of been... If they can't pay for it the lessor should have every right to repo it.
"TWA... One Mission, Yours."
 
Planesmart
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RE: FlyI Aircraft Repossessed

Sun Feb 13, 2005 10:53 am

Avek00

"Aside from how ugly it looks, it may actually be a blessing (don't have to pay for it now)."

'Far from it - a default on obligations to one creditor/lessor stymies efforts to reach settlement deals with other creditor/lessors, as:

1. Most "concessionary" lending/leasing terms require that the lessee not be in default on any of its other obligations; and

2. The creditor/lessor bargains with the knowledge that the company could (and, statiscally speaking, nearly all companies that reach the repo stage do) file for bankruptcy, and a pre-petition settlement can be undone in certain circumstances.'

As i stated Avek (post 32) - 'Action by other parties to recover debts.'

Unfortunately, US lenders/leasors have something of a reputation as being rather pre-emptive. Rather than collaborate with all those with exposure, and the company, one will always act unilaterally.

Thats partly why Chapter 11 is so much more important in the US than other countries, where lenders do tend to work together for the common good or all, including the customer.

It's a generalisation, but more often than not, when a customer with multi-bank facilities finds itself in trouble, it will be the US bank/s that say we will call in the receivers / trigger bankruptcy, unless you pay us out. Net result, we will usually increase our exposure to get them off the scene.

B's preference to package predominantly US-based financing, rather than european, may have lost them the odd sale in the past. They are also generally considered a little too conservative.
 
N1120A
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RE: FlyI Aircraft Repossessed

Sun Feb 13, 2005 11:05 am

>The only airline I know hedged fuel costs is Southwest.<

Ryanair has fuel hedged about to the degree WN does. If an airline has been making money steadily, they usually have a hedge on.

>I don't care how crippled they would of been...<

The judge does and that is what matters. If UA had been crippled, the creditors would have gotten far, far less than the judge putting forth the injunction and keeping them in the air

>If they can't pay for it the lessor should have every right to repo it.<

They don't. If an airline is in Chapter 11, it is up to the judge to say whether a lessor can repo an asset
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
uadc8contrail
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RE: FlyI Aircraft Repossessed

Sun Feb 13, 2005 1:19 pm

Time to get kerry to break out the FLYI experience again in order to get the troops to drink more kool-aid..anyone from indy in here knows what im talking about..what was the mantra at those shows??????..united s---s......its all coming back to bite indy in the arce.......
bus driver.......move that bus:)
 
fspilot747
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RE: FlyI Aircraft Repossessed

Sun Feb 13, 2005 1:30 pm

I dauno I always thought FlyI was a joke to begin with. Didn't see it lasting more than a year with their CASM figures.



FSP
 
sllevin
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RE: FlyI Aircraft Repossessed

Sun Feb 13, 2005 11:21 pm

Just to elaborate slightly on Planesmart's post... the "trigger" events are referred to as "convenants."

Available cash is perhaps THE most common covenant, and it's the one that most distressed airlines are impaacted by.

Steve
 
1MillionFlyer
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RE: FlyI Aircraft Repossessed

Sun Feb 13, 2005 11:45 pm

This then leads to either a Default or technical default of the agreement.

Many times when a default occurs, it allows the lessor to increase lease rates , accelerate payment terms, as well pass all legal fees and default related costs to the lessor.
Golf Foxtrot you are cleared for departure
 
RDUDDJI
Posts: 1700
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RE: FlyI Aircraft Repossessed

Mon Feb 14, 2005 7:15 am

N634BR is in the air right this second flying revenue for IDE. So obviously someone is mistaken (at least about the tail number).

P.S. IIRC UA almost had (or maybe they did have) some planes repoed last year. I believe it was over Thanksgiving weekend.

Now comparing UA and DH as this thread has turned into is like comparing Sun-drop (for my NC folks) and Coca-Cola, which is, at best, pointless.

Sometimes we don't realize the good times when we're in them
 
UALPHLCS
Posts: 3233
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RE: FlyI Aircraft Repossessed

Mon Feb 14, 2005 1:01 pm

When ever there is an INdy Air thread there are those who want to turn it into a UA bashing thread.

It's not surprising considering the history of Indy as a UAX carrier and the way the break up occured.

However, the problems DH has are solely DH's problem. That what being independent is all about.

DH's management pulled a fast one on the investment public saying they would have all these routes and planes up and running. In reality there were plenty of sceptics who were saying that the routes Indy Air was claiming were routes they flew as UAX. They underestimated what it would cost to restart stations that were UAX stations. And they never learned to operate efficiently since they were subsidized by UA Mainline getting fee for departure income. They assumed that IAD was thiers for the taking, never realizing that it wasn't just UA they were now competing against but also NW, B6 and WN in the DC market. And they never repaired the crappy reputation they had with DC area travellers who had flow DH enough as a UAX carrier to know who they were when they changed names.

In the end these reposessions are sad. But they were foreseen by realists who were not caught up in the hype of a "new" carrier coming to being. Saddly those realists were labled as UA partisans and ignored. Well they said time would tell, now it is for DH.
A little less Hooah, and a little more Dooah.
 
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ERJ170
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RE: FlyI Aircraft Repossessed

Mon Feb 14, 2005 1:04 pm

Now comparing UA and DH as this thread has turned into is like comparing Sun-drop (for my NC folks) and Coca-Cola, which is, at best, pointless.

Sun-Drop! LOL  Big thumbs up ... OMG.. haven't heard that in a LONG time.. but if you want true NC beverages.. you should say CheerWine and Pepsi (the taste born in the Carolinas - New Bern to be exact)..
Aiming High and going far..