AirWillie6475
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FAA May Close Some ATC Towers Starting 11 Pm

Thu Feb 17, 2005 4:38 pm

http://washingtontimes.com/business/20050215-105712-6784r.htm

What are pilots at major airports going to use CTAF?
 
United777
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FAA May Close Some ATC Towers Starting 11 Pm

Thu Feb 17, 2005 4:47 pm

Boise and Spokane are just two of the airports on the list. How scary! Landing at an airport with no ATC!
 
777ER
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FAA May Close Some ATC Towers Starting 11 Pm

Thu Feb 17, 2005 4:53 pm

This could force airlines to cancel all flights that land at the affected airports after 11pm, which will have a ripple effect on all the airlines schedules.
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KAUSpilot
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FAA May Close Some ATC Towers Starting 11 Pm

Thu Feb 17, 2005 5:27 pm

Landing at uncontrolled airports or airports with part-time towers is no big deal. There would be no need to cancel flights to the affected airports. The airlines will just have to get their opspecs modified in order to allow ops with a clsd twr. We already do it at about a dozen airports.

[Edited 2005-02-17 09:28:49]
 
PVD757
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FAA May Close Some ATC Towers Starting 11 Pm

Thu Feb 17, 2005 10:34 pm

PVDs ATCT has been closing at midnight to 6:00am for years now...
 
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ERJ170
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FAA May Close Some ATC Towers Starting 11 Pm

Thu Feb 17, 2005 10:40 pm

FAY (Fayetteville NC) and GSO are also on that list according to a new article I read here..

http://www.newsobserver.com/news/story/2134188p-8515234c.html

The North Carolina airports on the list are Fayetteville Regional/Grannis Field Airport and Piedmont Triad International Airport in Greensboro.
Aiming High and going far..
 
747firstclass
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FAA May Close Some ATC Towers Starting 11 Pm

Thu Feb 17, 2005 10:54 pm

Somewhere on airliners.net there was a recent thread where 4 DL flights returned to ATL late the other night due the shortages in the control towers at the destiantion airports of the flights. I am arfaird it is quite likely we will hear more of this thing.
 
1MillionFlyer
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FAA May Close Some ATC Towers Starting 11 Pm

Thu Feb 17, 2005 11:05 pm

sorry but this title is misleading. SOME towers may close at 11PM not all. Also, it is perfectly safe to fly into an airport without a tower operating during slow times. ILS systems are on 24/7 and landing lights are available, and larger planes also have Ground Proximity warning and Traffic Collision Avoidance systems so really there very very little risk.


The vast majority of airplane (not airline) movements in the US go in and out of small uncontrolled airports daily.
Golf Foxtrot you are cleared for departure
 
pensacolaguy
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FAA May Close Some ATC Towers Starting 11 Pm

Thu Feb 17, 2005 11:05 pm

Quoting 747firstclass (reply 6):

Actually that post is here
http://www.airliners.net/discussions...eneral_aviation/read.main/1961701/
And the planes returned because of bad fog not shortages in the control towers.
 
planespotting
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FAA May Close Some ATC Towers Starting 11 Pm

Fri Feb 18, 2005 12:43 am

Yeah a lot of airports close their towers and approach control after 11pm. Center would still talk to the aircraft on the way down and the airplanes would cancel their flight plane when on the ground. no big deal at all, just have to pay a bit more attention
Do you like movies about gladiators?
 
ckfred
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FAA May Close Some ATC Towers Starting 11 Pm

Fri Feb 18, 2005 1:22 am

Let's face it, government bureaucrats like to try scare tactics, when funding appears short. The FAA wanted more money in the Administration's budget. When it didn't get its full request, the p.r. campaign cranked up, so that members of Congress will hear from the constituents. Congress will then increase funding above the Administration's request.

Let's see how many of these towers acutally close after the budget is approved later this year.
 
echster
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FAA May Close Some ATC Towers Starting 11 Pm

Fri Feb 18, 2005 3:40 pm

It amazes me how a government organization formed with aviation safety clearly at the top of its mission list would even contemplate this move. NTSB data clearly shows more accidents occur at airfields using CTAF than when a control tower is staffed and operational.
 
gsoflyer
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FAA May Close Some ATC Towers Starting 11 Pm

Tue Feb 22, 2005 9:44 pm

What's funny to me is that I can understand some airports that end up being really slow at night..... but GSO has has a hand full of Delta and US flights that arrive/depart during this blackout as well as probably 25 cargo flights.

And all this when cargo flights will be ramping up out of here in the next 6 months.
 
planespotting
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FAA May Close Some ATC Towers Starting 11 Pm

Tue Feb 22, 2005 10:20 pm

Echster,

NTSB data shows that more general aviation accidents happen at airfields with just a CTAF. Airline accidents at CTAF airports are running in the same rate as airfields with a control tower. The only airline accident taking place at a non controlled airfield that comes to the top of my head is the United Express Beech 1900 that crashed ontop of a GA aircraft in Quincy Illinois in the mid 90's. That accident (in terms of how it happened) is comparable to a similiar accident involving a commuter and a US Air 737 at LAX (which obviously is controlled) that happened a few years before. Aviation accidents at CTAF airfields are proportional to the amount of traffic that airfield gets. Obviously if O'hare went uncontrolled there might be 2-3 incidents in one day alone.
Do you like movies about gladiators?
 
zrb2
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FAA May Close Some ATC Towers Starting 11 Pm

Tue Feb 22, 2005 10:54 pm

I heard about this last week. There was an article in the Buffalo paper about it (see link). Obviously they're not too happy about it.

http://www.buffalonews.com/editorial/20050217/1033444.asp
 
gocaps16
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FAA May Close Some ATC Towers Starting 11 Pm

Tue Feb 22, 2005 10:58 pm

Class C and D airports doesn't require an operating control tower at those airports. I'm sure Spokane and Boise are under Class C airports...no big deal for the airlines.Pasangers shouldn't be afraid as these are professionals we are talking about..I see them doing traffic advisories on CTAF when im flying at night at uncontrolled airports after 2200 or 2300. Only airports requires a 24 hour facility tower are those on Class B, much more busier airspace.

Regards, Kevin
 
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tjwgrr
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FAA May Close Some ATC Towers Starting 11 Pm

Tue Feb 22, 2005 11:59 pm

Our tower here in GRR is closed from midnight until 0530 local time. We often get late commercial arrivals after midnight, and one of the FedEx flights arrives around 0500 local.

No big deal- Chicago ATC talks them down and gives them approach clearance. The arriving/ departing aircraft broadcast their intentions in the blind on GRR's tower frequency. Departing flights can get clearance delivery from Chicago ATC on the ground at GRR since the Chicago ATC transmitter is next to the field at GRR.
Direct KNOBS, maintain 2700' until established on the localizer, cleared ILS runway 26 left approach.
 
goboeing
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FAA May Close Some ATC Towers Starting 11 Pm

Wed Feb 23, 2005 12:42 am

Airline flights regularly go into HDN, Steamboat Springs / Hayden, Colorado. It is interesting to watch an airliner do a full ILS complete with a procedure turn and hear the pilot make the basic VFR traffic reports.

There are already a number of towers that are part time. PWM comes to mind. If the traffic is not heavy enough I'd rather have them close at night for a few hours and be sufficiently staffed during the day rather than open all the time but understaffed when things get busy.

Nick
 
flymia
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FAA May Close Some ATC Towers Starting 11 Pm

Wed Feb 23, 2005 2:06 am

I dont think airports like ORD MIA JFK LAX will be part of this list. Maybe smaller commercial airports.
"It was just four of us on the flight deck, trying to do our job" (Captain Al Haynes)
 
goboeing
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FAA May Close Some ATC Towers Starting 11 Pm

Wed Feb 23, 2005 2:12 am

FlyMIA,

Definitely. JFK, MIA, LAX, and ORD probably have more traffic from 2 - 4AM than some towered airports have from 2 -4 PM!

Nick
 
smcmac32msn
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FAA May Close Some ATC Towers Starting 11 Pm

Wed Feb 23, 2005 2:23 am

MSN closes 2300 to 0500 each night. NW has an arriving flight at 2315 each night from MEM (I think) with the tower closed, I'm sure its no big deal for these pilots. They've probably flown into CTAF airports when they were learning to fly anyways. They should know how to handle it.
Hey Obama, keep the change! I want my dollar back.
 
ckfred
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FAA May Close Some ATC Towers Starting 11 Pm

Wed Feb 23, 2005 2:38 am

Some time ago, the FAA wanted to close the DPA (DuPage Airport) from midnight to 6:00. Besides the fact that management used the 24-hour tour as a marketing tool to get more biz jets, the belief was that with the congested airspace over the Chicago metro area, this meant more work for Chicago ATC.

So, the tower is open 24 hours.
 
N1120A
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FAA May Close Some ATC Towers Starting 11 Pm

Wed Feb 23, 2005 2:49 am

>Somewhere on airliners.net there was a recent thread where 4 DL flights returned to ATL late the other night due the shortages in the control towers at the destiantion airports of the flights. I am arfaird it is quite likely we will hear more of this thing. <

The pilots were full of $hit. They were making up the excuse to give to the pax on the flights that were not able to land because of fog conditions and a lack of Cat IIIb ILS. A tower will always have at least minimum staffing to handle its needs.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
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airportugal310
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FAA May Close Some ATC Towers Starting 11 Pm

Wed Feb 23, 2005 2:56 am

Quoting PVD757 (reply 4):
PVDs ATCT has been closing at midnight to 6:00am for years now...



Got into this situation with them just the other night around midnight. No biggie...they cleared us for our approach in New Bedford and told us there was no other traffic observed between us and EWB.

Wheres the worry?
I sell airplanes and airplane accessories
 
SonOfACaptain
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FAA May Close Some ATC Towers Starting 11 Pm

Wed Feb 23, 2005 7:26 am

When my dad first joined US, he would fly into airports where the tower had been closed all the time. He did this with mainline jets too, so if the FAA does do this, safety should not be a concern. After all, most pilots got their start flying into non-controlled airports.

-SOAC
Non Illegitimi Carborundum
 
pilotpip
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FAA May Close Some ATC Towers Starting 11 Pm

Wed Feb 23, 2005 7:38 am

95% of the time pilots do visual approaches anyway. They do have eyes and ears you know? The controllers have a job but the pilot is still the one controlling the plane. Take the controller away and I assure you the plane won't fall out of the sky. The pilots just have to let others know where they are and what they're doing. It's called position reporting and it was how things were done back in the day before we had enroute facilities.

Many Class C airports will go to one controller for approach, tower, and ground during slow times. Most Class D airports are not 24 hour. After the tower closes you handle it just like any non-towered airport.
DMI
 
meister808
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RE: FAA May Close Some ATC Towers Starting 11 Pm

Wed Feb 23, 2005 8:27 am

This really isn't a big deal... I would wager that 95% of the pilots flying airliners that weren't trained by a military branch picked up most of their training time at non-towered airports. Knowing how to efficiently operate into an uncontrolled field is a pretty rudimentary pilot skill.

Heck - at an uncontrolled airport, or one where the tower is closed temporarily, under IFR the airspace for that airport will be reserved wholly for the aircraft that is shooting an approach or departing, so it could be argued that, in poor weather, the midair collision risk is lower at non-towered fields, because there isn't allowed to be more than one airplane within approximately 5 miles of the airport.

Also, keep in mind that other traffic is a heck of a lot easier to see at night in VFR conditions. See and avoid becomes almost fail-safe.

All told, this isn't a big deal. Looking at a situation like this:

Quoting Gsoflyer (reply 12):
GSO has has a hand full of Delta and US flights that arrive/depart during this blackout as well as probably 25 cargo flights.


Ok... so say there are 50 flights in and out of there in the 6 hours that the airport is closed. That is, at most, 100 operations over 6 hours, which makes 16 flights an hour, or just more than 1 every 4 minutes. That certainly isn't impossible to self-sequence, and I would think that this particular airport (GSO) is one of the busier ones on this list. I know of a number of uncontrolled fields that operate normally with 4 or 5 airplanes in the pattern. I know that it might be a hair more difficult in transport category airplanes, but the basic operation is the same.

Still - not a big deal. I don't see any reason for the FAA to pay 4 guys to sit in a windowed room to hold the hand of 10 planes an hour, at most. If they want to, fine, but if they don't want to, there is no reason to put up a fuss.

-Meister
Twin Cessna 812 Victor, Minneapolis Center, we observe your operation in the immediate vicinity of extreme precipitation
 
burnsie28
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RE: FAA May Close Some ATC Towers Starting 11 Pm

Wed Feb 23, 2005 10:17 am

I bet the controllers are not going to be happy with Bush. He doesnt think that we need anymore controllers, well guess what, a lot of them are understaffed as it is. This is one thing (of many) that pisses me and many others off, unfortunately he is blind sided when it comes to aviation.
 
pilotpip
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RE: FAA May Close Some ATC Towers Starting 11 Pm

Wed Feb 23, 2005 12:17 pm

If he had it his way, ATC would be privatized Burnsie. Then it wouldn't be his problem at all.
DMI
 
N766UA
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RE: FAA May Close Some ATC Towers Starting 11 Pm

Wed Feb 23, 2005 12:24 pm

And since the president can do absolutely nothing regarding controller hiring or funding besides can them for striking, it's a non-issue.
This Website Censors Me
 
gsoflyer
Posts: 822
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RE: FAA May Close Some ATC Towers Starting 11 Pm

Wed Feb 23, 2005 11:12 pm

"Still - not a big deal. I don't see any reason for the FAA to pay 4 guys to sit in a windowed room to hold the hand of 10 planes an hour, at most. If they want to, fine, but if they don't want to, there is no reason to put up a fuss."

What about the tons of other airports with towers that will be open with less equivalent or less traffic like GSP, RDU, AVL, ILM, MYR, RIC, ROA, KNX, CAE, etc etc

I just seems like some of the airports in this list were picked at random. And plus, if airlines prefer a manned tower, we could lose even more flights/traffic to RDU and CLT.

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