airbazar
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Is BOS A380 Ready?

Fri Feb 18, 2005 12:29 am

Question says it all. Is the new international terminal (E), able to handle the A380? What about the taxiways?

I know BOS is not expected to see the A380 on a regular basis any time soon but with LH's 3 daily flights (in Summer), consistently packed to the refters and the limited space at BOS, I wonder if LH could someday soon put one of their A380's on the route.
 
PHLBOS
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RE: Is BOS A380 Ready?

Fri Feb 18, 2005 12:49 am

Being a native New Englander, I can tell you that the taxiways and runways at Logan are not Group VI aircraft compliant. The airport land is basically a man-made pennisula. Personally, I don't think an upgrade will ever happen. Look how long it has taken to advance the Runway 14-32 project (nearly 30 years for a runway to handle up to Group III aircraft) and the ground-breaking for it hasn't even started yet.

[Edited 2005-02-17 16:50:35]
"TransEastern! You'll feel like you've never left the ground because we treat you like dirt!" SNL Parady ad circa 1981
 
tockeyhockey
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RE: Is BOS A380 Ready?

Fri Feb 18, 2005 1:11 am

who would fly an a380 to boston? it's not exactly a superhub. BWI and PHL are busier than BOS, and i couldn't see an a380 flying to either of those airports either!
 
SNATH
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RE: Is BOS A380 Ready?

Fri Feb 18, 2005 1:19 am

Quoting Tockeyhockey (reply 2):
who would fly an a380 to boston?


I've been to many LH B744 flights between BOS and FRA and, I'm telling you, they have always been packed. And I don't even remember that last time LH was not asking for volunteers to board a later flight.

But, seriously, Logan is a loooooong way from being A380-ready. The taxiways and gates are one problem. The limited number of immigration desks is another. I have to admit that, when I read the subject of the post, I bursted out laughing!  Wink/being sarcastic

Tony
Nikon: we don't want more pixels, we want better pixels.
 
Rj111
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RE: Is BOS A380 Ready?

Fri Feb 18, 2005 1:19 am

BOS-LHR/FRA could possibly justify an A380 at peak periods.

Edit: 13 seconds too slow  Sad

[Edited 2005-02-17 17:21:16]
 
airbazar
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RE: Is BOS A380 Ready?

Fri Feb 18, 2005 1:22 am

I know where you're coming from, I'm a Bostonian myself however, the fact that it is a man made peninsula has nothing to do with it. From what I understand, weight is not an issue. And also, there is a big difference between construction that will promote traffic increase (new runway), vesus construction that promotes traffic reduction (1 LH flight vs. 2)  Smile
 
BOSSAN
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RE: Is BOS A380 Ready?

Fri Feb 18, 2005 1:34 am

On the jetway side, Terminal E is the same terminal that's been in use since the early 80's. There's a proposal to add 3 jetways on a finger to the west, when demand increases. The terminal was designed for 747 spacing on some jetways. PHLBOS is right about the airport's size; it's about 2400 acres total, and changes can get caught up in neighborhood distrust of the port authority. (I remember a statistic that DEN is larger than the city limits of Boston, which has 590,000 residents and BOS)

If Lufthansa is filling their 3 flights per day in the summer, I'm sure they're happy. I believe that's 2 A343s to FRA and 1 A343 to MUC. In previous summers they've run as many as 2 A333s to MUC; during the winter the schedule drops to 1 747 to FRA.

I think Lufthansa has huge potential with upgauging their existing service before requiring an A380; going to 747s to FRA or 2 MUC dailies would add capacity, and if United and Lufthansa are revenue sharing over the Atlantic United could resurrect its BOS-LHR dailies (at the cost of reacquiring slots) and send some traffic onward on BMI.
 
airbazar
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RE: Is BOS A380 Ready?

Fri Feb 18, 2005 1:36 am

SNATH, ence my question. I'm not familiar with the detail butI'd would think that the gate and immigration issue would be resolved during the modernization of terminal E.

And Tockeyhockey, I guess you didn't read my post. Hint: LH = Lufthansa. Hate to burst your buble but BOS gets more international passengers than BWI and PHL combined. And also, the A380 is not for hub-to-hub travel, no matter what Boeing says. Name one A380 customer (except LH), that has more than one hub. A big fat zero.
 
airbazar
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RE: Is BOS A380 Ready?

Fri Feb 18, 2005 1:38 am

BOSSAN, I suppose when LH does get their A380's that will free up a few 747's for routes like BOS. You have a point there. Oh well.
 
LH423
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RE: Is BOS A380 Ready?

Fri Feb 18, 2005 1:40 am

From what I've heard Massport does want to make Logan A380 capable.

As for who would fly it...hard to say. Many airlines seem to prefer frequency to capacity. Although LH could offer 1xFRA and 1xMUC during the summer with the former on an A380 and the latter on an A330/340 I think they like being able to offer the consumer two flights to FRA and one to MUC.

BA is another airline that could also get away with using the 380 (if they ever order any) on it's flights, but again BA like being able to give passengers a choice of a morning, early evening, and night departures.

AF could also use the capacity, but as far as I can tell the 380 will be a three-class aircraft, something that AF will no longer be offering in Boston eventually (partially why we no longer see the 777).

As for airport capacity issues, the immigration and customs issues won't exist as much with three new baggage carousels and over 40 immigration positions to be open by the time the A380 starts flying commercially. The main problem I see is the wingspan and the relative compactness (is that a word?) of the gates.

For the foreseeable future I'd say that the only A380s landing in BOS would be diversions from JFK.

LH423
« On ne voit bien qu'avec le cœur. L'essentiel est invisible pour les yeux » Antoine de Saint-Exupéry
 
SNATH
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RE: Is BOS A380 Ready?

Fri Feb 18, 2005 1:45 am

Quoting BOSSAN (reply 6):
(I remember a statistic that DEN is larger than the city limits of Boston, which has 590,000 residents and BOS)

Yes, but DEN was actually built in the middle of nowhere, and over an hour's drive from Denver, where there was lots and lots of space. Unfortunately, this doesn't seem to be an option for the city of Boston.

Quoting BOSSAN (reply 6):
I believe that's 2 A343s to FRA and 1 A343 to MUC; during the winter the schedule drops to 1 747 to FRA.

This is correct. And I have been on all of them! But note that it's 1 very full 747 to FRA.

Quoting BOSSAN (reply 6):
United could resurrect its BOS-LHR dailies (at the cost of reacquiring slots) and send some traffic onward on BMI.

Oh the memories... I had done GLA-BOS through LHR many many times (when I lived in Glasgow). Shame they killed it. If I remember, the flights were mostly full too. I only remember one very empty flight (it was the BOS to LHR leg in the middle of the week).

Quoting Airbazar (reply 7):
I'd would think that the gate and immigration issue would be resolved during the modernization of terminal E.

During the modernization? I thought they had finished it. Seriously, are they still doing work on Terminal E?

Tony
Nikon: we don't want more pixels, we want better pixels.
 
airbazar
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RE: Is BOS A380 Ready?

Fri Feb 18, 2005 2:02 am

During the modernization? I thought they had finished it. Seriously, are they still doing work on Terminal E?

Yes. They haven't quite finished the arrivals floor, and they haven't even started with the immigration section. At least that was the state it was the last time I went through it last October.
 
SNATH
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RE: Is BOS A380 Ready?

Fri Feb 18, 2005 2:06 am

Quoting Airbazar (reply 11):

Thanks for the info! This is actually good news. I actually really like the new departures area, but the luggage reclaim and immigration are pretty pathetic. Once my LH flight from FRA arrived just behind two other widebodies from Europe and we spent ages waiting in the plane, followed by more queueing at the immigration area. I really hope they are going to improve it (i.e. enlarge it) soon.

Tony
Nikon: we don't want more pixels, we want better pixels.
 
PHLBOS
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RE: Is BOS A380 Ready?

Fri Feb 18, 2005 2:07 am

Quoting LH423 (reply 9):
From what I've heard Massport does want to make Logan A380 capable.


LH423,

Massport may want to want to have BOS Group VI aircraft compliant (heck, if they had it their way even BED would be Group VI aircraft compliant), but that doesn't meant that it's going to happen. Again, I point to the smaller Runway 14-32 project that was first conceived when I was 10 years old and you weren't even born yet. You must've read the Globe and/or Herald articles over the years on this project about the surrounding towns as well as former Gov. Mike Dukakis fighting Massport on this. What makes you think that they will roll over and play dead to Massport planning on a much larger scale project undertaking?

People, this has been mentioned on nearly every A380 airport thread; but I see that it needs to be mentioned again. With the A380, we are not dealing with the same scenario that airports nationwide faced when the 747 came out in the early to mid 1970s. Back then, every airline was upgrading their equipment to what we now call mainline jets and nearly every major carrier had at least one 747 in their fleet. Also, land acquisitions for airport/airfield expansion were a lot cheaper back then; read, less environmental permits to file and regulations to abide by. Plus the NIMBY factors was only just beginning to have a major influence over major construction projects. Keep in mind that it was in the '70s that Gov. Dukakis signed the now-infamous expansion moratorium at BOS.
"TransEastern! You'll feel like you've never left the ground because we treat you like dirt!" SNL Parady ad circa 1981
 
airbazar
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RE: Is BOS A380 Ready?

Fri Feb 18, 2005 2:45 am

What makes you think that they will roll over and play dead to Massport planning on a much larger scale project undertaking?

Just a thought here, but like I said, the runway contruction project promotes traffic increase while the Group VI aircraft compliance project promotes traffic decrease. They're contradicting projects so if these people really believe what they're preaching how are they going to oppose it? I don't think they'll lose risking both battles. I think they'll stick to their original battle and yes, roll over and play dead  Smile

By the way, I don't see how it is a much larger project. We're talking about increasing the turning radius on the taxi ways and larger spacing at 1 or 2 gates. That sounds like minor cosmetic changes to me, unless there's something more I'm missing.

Let me ask you this. Can the AN-225 operate at BOS. Has anyone ever seen the AN-225 at BOS? If yes, than I'd think that the runway/taxiway issue is a moot point.

I know, I'm beating a dead horse here. Sorry  Smile
 
boeingbus
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RE: Is BOS A380 Ready?

Fri Feb 18, 2005 3:15 am

There is a big difference between reinforcing, widening, and upgrading an existing runway to allow group VI aircraft than what it took 30 years to get an approval to build a new runway...

NIMBY can't say much on improving existing runways as this won't increase traffic. NIMBY can not prevent a QC2 compliant A380 land in BOS but lack of runway will and terminal space.

Whether or not Terminal E is able to support the A380 is another question... and my gut feeling is a big fat NO and it would take an additional investment that massport doesn't have. NW and JetBlue will leave Terminal E soon so it should free up this terminal to support larger planes or additional flights...

But time will tell... the A380 still has to prove herself....
Airbus or Boeing - it's all good to me!
 
PHLBOS
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RE: Is BOS A380 Ready?

Fri Feb 18, 2005 3:43 am

Quoting Airbazar (reply 14):
We're talking about increasing the turning radius on the taxi ways and larger spacing at 1 or 2 gates. That sounds like minor cosmetic changes to me, unless there's something more I'm missing.

Let me ask you this. Can the AN-225 operate at BOS. Has anyone ever seen the AN-225 at BOS? If yes, than I'd think that the runway/taxiway issue is a moot point.


The big issue with Group VI aircraft like the A380 and the AN-225 (to my knowledge, I've never seen nor heard of any AN-225s ever being at BOS) is taxiway/taxiway and runway/taxiway spacing. The attached pdf file is the FAA Advisory Circular that covers airport design.
http://www.faa.gov/arp/pdf/5300-13.pdf
Chapters 2, 3, & 4 deal specifically with runway and taxiway sizes, layouts, distances, etc. for each Design Group Aircraft (which are defined by wing-span ranges).

In short, if the runways and taxiways have to be reconfigured to allow for wider spacing distances, you are indeed talking about expanding the peninsula; the folks at East Boston and Winthrop are really gonna love that!.

Speaking as one who's actually worked on airport projects, there many behind the scenes items that take place long before the first shovel hits the ground. The environmental impact statements and permitting process for such an expansion project of this magnitude being just only two of them.
"TransEastern! You'll feel like you've never left the ground because we treat you like dirt!" SNL Parady ad circa 1981
 
BOSSAN
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RE: Is BOS A380 Ready?

Fri Feb 18, 2005 4:05 am

Taxiways look like much more of an issue than runways -- specifically, the clearance between the aircraft stands, taxiways A and K around the terminal area, and runways 15R-33L and 4R-22L are tight. If there's a chance of the wingtip of an A380 striking something, either the taxiways and runways would need to be moved, or all other aircraft would need to be moved off of the taxiways. Increasing this clearance would require moving three of the four 7000+ foot runways, which goes far beyond upgrading existing runways. That's on top of the current requirement for 200' wide runways (those four are 150').

Evacuating all other aircraft from the taxiways and adjacent runways sounds acceptable in a diversion emergency, but not as a multiple-times-per-day measure.
 
KBOS
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RE: Is BOS A380 Ready?

Fri Feb 18, 2005 4:45 am

I don't recall an AN-225 ever coming to Logan, but his little brother has paid a visit.


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BOSugaDL
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RE: Is BOS A380 Ready?

Fri Feb 18, 2005 5:17 am

I have my doubts about seeing an A380 pax version in BOS....but what about FX bringing it to town some day? FX's cargo ramp doesn't seem to be all that big at BOS and they bring DC/MD-10's and A300's all the time...If there is every an increase in FX ops at BOS it doesn't seem like they could expand the ramp, so why not bring in the big boy?...just my 2 cents

...but just to add to what someone else said, in reality I think the only time the A380 will be seen in BOS will be because of a JFK diversion
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: Is BOS A380 Ready?

Fri Feb 18, 2005 5:23 am

Quoting Airbazar (reply 7):
And also, the A380 is not for hub-to-hub travel, no matter what Boeing says. Name one A380 customer (except LH), that has more than one hub.

Thus only showing that you misunderstand what both Boeing AND AIRBUS mean by hub-hub.

Not repositioning, but the fact that the aircraft will be mostly limited to airports with very heavy feed on both end.
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
gigneil
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RE: Is BOS A380 Ready?

Fri Feb 18, 2005 5:29 am

and over an hour's drive from Denver, where there was lots and lots of space.

It has not ever taken me more than 25 minutes to drive from downtown Denver to DEN under any traffic conditions.

N
 
PHLBOS
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RE: Is BOS A380 Ready?

Fri Feb 18, 2005 5:48 am

Quoting KBOS (reply 18):
I don't recall an AN-225 ever coming to Logan, but his little brother has paid a visit.


Quote from the photograph (bold emphasis added):
a Volga-Dnepr (Heavy Lift) Antonov 124 lands at Boston's Runway33. Not usually allowed in Boston, the behemoth was chartered by a Boston Freight Forwarding company to transport 2 18,000lbs printing presses.

While the Antonov is a Group VI aircraft (232 foot wingspan), its being in BOS on January 2000 is a rare case exception. I'm sure that all other plane traffic was steered away from the Antonov 124's movement paths.
Quoting BOSSAN (reply 17):
Evacuating all other aircraft from the taxiways and adjacent runways sounds acceptable in a diversion emergency, but not as a multiple-times-per-day measure.


I agree.
"TransEastern! You'll feel like you've never left the ground because we treat you like dirt!" SNL Parady ad circa 1981
 
LH423
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RE: Is BOS A380 Ready?

Fri Feb 18, 2005 8:46 am

Actually, while not a common occurance, the AN-124 can now be seen in Boston a few times a year. It's tight but I watched one take off. I think the biggest problem with the AN-124 is the runway length, not wingspan clearance. Actually, in 2004 I must have seen the AN-124 about 3-5 times.

LH423
« On ne voit bien qu'avec le cœur. L'essentiel est invisible pour les yeux » Antoine de Saint-Exupéry
 
PVD757
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RE: Is BOS A380 Ready?

Fri Feb 18, 2005 8:57 am

From a semi-reliable source, Fedex has thought about bringing in their A380 in place of two MD-11s. They supposedly hold similar amounts ( 2 versus 1) and would help free up for more int'l routes. I don't know how this would affect traffic; it would depend on when they operated. What Logan can do is get a waiver of use that would allow the aircraft to operate. They would just have to restrict use around the aircraft while it taxis and while it utilizes a runway for ops.
 
Avianca
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RE: Is BOS A380 Ready?

Fri Feb 18, 2005 9:00 am

lh flights are always full, can remember 10 year ago when I used
LH on the FRA-BOS rout, they had just one A-340-200 per day on this route, now 3 A340-300. BOS has the potential for the A380. Airport situation is other case....

regards
Avianca
Colombia es el Mundo Y el Mundo es Colombia
 
MQrampBOS
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RE: Is BOS A380 Ready?

Fri Feb 18, 2005 11:56 am

If only Massport could just start over....

Since they can't build an island in the middle of Massachusetts Bay or flatten Framingham, they're going to have to make do. The gates wouldn't be too much of an issue if the jetbridges were directly connected to the terminal or if those ramps to the terminal were movable. Is Massport planning on reconstructing the gates? One could only hope.

Quoting PHLBOS (reply 16):
In short, if the runways and taxiways have to be reconfigured to allow for wider spacing distances, you are indeed talking about expanding the peninsula; the folks at East Boston and Winthrop are really gonna love that!.


I thought that was off the table. Something about altering the US border.
Don't put me on A7! I got out of the airport, so why send me back?
 
VS11
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RE: Is BOS A380 Ready?

Fri Feb 18, 2005 12:35 pm

I can see Massport making the necessary investment (if it is just up to the money) for A380. In addition to FedEx, VS, LH, BA can very easily fill in A380 during summer time at BOS. But Massport will need to start working on it now to be ready to take advantage of the forthcoming increase in air travel. As the A380 is meant to be more economical than 747s, it would be natural for the plane to be full even in the case of higher oil prices as then the number of services will be cut.

VS11
 
PHLBOS
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RE: Is BOS A380 Ready?

Fri Feb 18, 2005 10:59 pm

Quoting MQrampBOS (reply 26):
Quoting PHLBOS (reply 16):
In short, if the runways and taxiways have to be reconfigured to allow for wider spacing distances, you are indeed talking about expanding the peninsula; the folks at East Boston and Winthrop are really gonna love that!.


Quoting MQrampBOS (reply 26):
I thought that was off the table. Something about altering the US border.


Excuse me, but the last time the airfield at BOS was expanded (sometime during either the '40s, '50s, or '60s), the peninsula was indeed expanded. As a matter of fact, most of the modern city of Boston was built up on landfill.
"TransEastern! You'll feel like you've never left the ground because we treat you like dirt!" SNL Parady ad circa 1981
 
airbazar
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RE: Is BOS A380 Ready?

Sat Feb 19, 2005 12:38 am

VS11, that's the way I'm thinking. BOS's space limitations are one of the selling points for the A380, along with slot restricted airports. There's no way in hell a new "full size" runway will ever be allowed to be built at BOS so the only other alternative to the increase in passenger traffic will be larger aircraft such as the A380.

After reading about the topic, I get the impression that Group VI aircraft requirements has some wiggle room. There are exception to it and, most importantly, there is some lobbying going on to chage it. I can definatelly see FedEx operate their A380's into BOS on a regular basis as long as it's done outside the busy time slots so as not to hold up traffic.

In the specific case of LH, their first flight from FRA arrives at 12:30. Hardly a busy time at Logan. The departure is a different story  Smile

In due time, I think BOS will be part of that second tier of US airports that will be modified to fully comply with Group VI requirements.
 
zrs70
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RE: Is BOS A380 Ready?

Sat Feb 19, 2005 1:38 am

Quoting BOSSAN (reply 6):
On the jetway side, Terminal E is the same terminal that's been in use since the early 80's.


Actually, Terminal E was completed in the 70's! But the pointis still valid!
17 year airliners.net vet! 2000-2016
 
KBOS
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RE: Is BOS A380 Ready?

Sat Feb 19, 2005 3:07 am

And here is Terminal E's first visitor...thanks to my Mom for letting me skip school and be there that day.


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As PHLBOS has stated, Boston is NIMBY heaven. I'd bet they try to tie up any construction required in the courts. I hope Fed Ex does use the 380 here.
I go out to my porch for a smoke most nights at 10:20 to watch the UPS and Fed Ex departures pass over my house. I have not see a 747 fly over JP/Roslindale in years. The large BA & Lufthansa flights usually make a quick turn out over the ocean after takeoff. Hope they don't make Fed Ex start doing the same.
I don't care if the sun don't shine, I do my drinkin in the evening time when I'm in Rhode Island
 
airbazar
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RE: Is BOS A380 Ready?

Sat Feb 19, 2005 3:49 am

I agree that Boston is NIMBY heaven, I'm one of them. But I'd pay higher taxes to make BOS A380 ready, and support a new runway  Smile
The people who oppose Logan's expansion are not NIMBYs. They're only looking out for themselves and couldn't care less for the well-being of others in the region. The simple fact that they believe that others should be bothered by moving air traffic somewhere else where it doesn't exist today even though they knew there was an airport there when they moved in, is a perfect example of their selfish attitude. Personally I think they're fighting a losing battle, no matter how long it may take.
 
PHLBOS
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RE: Is BOS A380 Ready?

Sat Feb 19, 2005 4:02 am

Quoting Airbazar (reply 32):
Personally I think they're fighting a losing battle, no matter how long it may take.


Airbazar,

Don't be so sure of that. It was NIMBY's (along with Fred Salvucci) that forced then-Gov. Frank Sargent to cancel the Inner Belt (I-695) and the 2 I-95 segments inside 128 (Southwest Expressway and the Northeast Expressway extension through Lynn). That move began the long, drawn-out Big Dig movement in the early '70s. It was due to NIMBY's that Sargent's successor, then-Gov. Mike Dukakis, signed the moratorium on any expansion at BOS with open arms in the mid '70s.

To those that still live in the Greater Boston area (I moved out nearly 15 years ago): if you want to see any serious action with regards to airport expansion over at BOS; do yourself a favor and STOP re-electing legislators that keep siding with the NIMBYs!

[Edited 2005-02-18 20:04:28]
"TransEastern! You'll feel like you've never left the ground because we treat you like dirt!" SNL Parady ad circa 1981
 
ScottB
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RE: Is BOS A380 Ready?

Sat Feb 19, 2005 7:09 am

Quoting Airbazar (reply 29):
the only other alternative to the increase in passenger traffic will be larger aircraft such as the A380.


No, there are clearly several alternatives to deal with increased passenger traffic demand from the Boston area; i.e.:
* Continuing "regionalization" of traffic with passengers using PVD, MHT, and potentially ORH or BED as smaller, less congested alternatives to BOS
* Replacing the scads of RJ's and props at BOS with mainline aircraft like 737's or A320's; does Boston truly need air service to PWM, HYA, ACK, MVY, or PVC?
* Consolidating some of the short-haul mainline flying onto larger aircraft; is it necessary to have service to LGA on three airlines with departures every half hour?
* Relocating corporate jets and private traffic to BED.

Quoting MQrampBOS (reply 26):
Since they can't build an island in the middle of Massachusetts Bay or flatten Framingham, they're going to have to make do.


There was a proposal to build a new Boston airport at the site of Fort Devens out in Ayer/Harvard/Lancaster/Shirley, but that was nixed due to the distance and poor highway access from Boston. Can you imagine trying to get out there on Route 2 at rush hour?

Terminal E was not designed to handle aircraft as large as the A380, and the A380 would actually reduce capacity at the terminal due to the fact that it would partially block at least one adjoining gate.
 
VS11
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RE: Is BOS A380 Ready?

Sat Feb 19, 2005 7:28 am

What is/are NIMBY?

I do not want BOS moved away, it is so convenient to get to. It is practically in the city, and the view from Castle Island is great!

VS11
 
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RayChuang
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RE: Is BOS A380 Ready?

Sat Feb 19, 2005 7:36 am

Folks,

I don't see BOS getting the A380-800 anytime soon. There just isn't enough high-density long-range traffic to justify using the A388 there, unlike JFK, MIA, MCO, LAX and SFO.
 
PHLBOS
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RE: Is BOS A380 Ready?

Sat Feb 19, 2005 7:54 am

Quoting VS11 (reply 35):
What is/are NIMBY?


Not In My BackYard.
"TransEastern! You'll feel like you've never left the ground because we treat you like dirt!" SNL Parady ad circa 1981
 
eilennaei
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RE: Is BOS A380 Ready?

Sat Feb 19, 2005 8:00 am

LH423 wrote:

"I think the biggest problem with the AN-124 is the runway length,"


If we're talking about an airport with an elevation of 19ft and a runway length of 10083 ft, actually no problem whatsoever. The official Antonov spec is:
(www.antonov.com)

Runway length, m 3 000
Required runway strength PCN R/B 52

Real-life, the AN-124s seem to rotate after around 2 000 meters of take-off run:
(elevation here= 180 ft)



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[Edited 2005-02-19 00:07:51]
 
PHLBOS
Posts: 6504
Joined: Thu Apr 01, 2004 6:38 am

RE: Is BOS A380 Ready?

Sat Feb 19, 2005 8:27 am

Quoting ScottB (reply 34):
there are clearly several alternatives to deal with increased passenger traffic demand from the Boston area; i.e.:
* Continuing "regionalization" of traffic with passengers using PVD, MHT, and potentially ORH or BED as smaller, less congested alternatives to BOS


Since WN came to PVD & MHT, more people have been utilizing these airports as an alternative to BOS; especially on routes where the fares out of PVD & MHT are significantly less than out of BOS. Although FL's, B6's, TZ's and IndyAir's presence at BOS along with the completion of I-90 to the airport has caused some travelers to reconsider using Logan again.

Unfortunately, due to poor highway access and fog; many airlines (including WN) either left or decided against serving ORH. At present, there is no scheduled commercial service at ORH.

BED has been on the NIMBY's radar ever since Shuttle America first started serving there many years ago. The Bedford and Lexington NIMBY's literally chased US Express out of there as well although it did eventually get its hooks into BED when they bought Shuttle America (which became a US Express carrier). Needless to say when US Express dropped Shuttle America and BED out of its network/system a few months ago, the NIMBYs cheered. At present, only B&M Airways is still offering service at BED. Again with LCCs like FL, B6, TZ and Indy Air; scheduled commercial service at BED has lost its luster somewhat.
"TransEastern! You'll feel like you've never left the ground because we treat you like dirt!" SNL Parady ad circa 1981
 
bkonner
Posts: 38
Joined: Tue Jan 11, 2005 11:53 am

RE: Is BOS A380 Ready?

Sat Feb 19, 2005 11:42 am

I agree VS11. I love Logan. I live in the North End, and its great to have the airport so close. I would never consider flying out of PVD. Not enough flights to make it worth it. If you miss a flight you wait for hours for the next one. If you miss a flight to BOS, chances are there will be one pretty soon; this in fact happened to me and a buddy, where we were late for a flight, and I got home right away and he waited for about five or six hours (this was prior to WN, though).

I have little sympathy for people who live in South Boston and East Boston and complain about the airport. Its been there for 60 plus years! I realize a lot of people who live there have had families there for many decades. And like my neighborhood, most of the original "locals" are moving out anyway because of the cost of housing. But come on, when you buy in Southie and Eastie, you get Logan! What did these people expect?

Logan like SFO has had a big decrease in the number of passengers using the facility (about five million less since 2000). So I just can not believe that traffic at BOS is a problem. Also, we lost Korean Airlines because Massport's rebuilding of Terminal E. Korean Air was complaining about the construction at Terminal E. And knowing Massport, I am sure they will start rebuilding Logan right after they finish the current projects; just to make life annoying.

Bkonner
 
LH423
Posts: 5868
Joined: Sun Jul 11, 1999 6:27 am

RE: Is BOS A380 Ready?

Sun Feb 20, 2005 3:29 am

[quote=RayChuang,reply=36]There just isn't enough high-density long-range traffic to justify using the A388 there, unlike JFK, MIA, MCO, LAX and SFO[/quote}

You obviously haven't seen Boston at rush hour!

BOS-LHR and BOS-FRA are two of the most travelled US-Europe routes (in the case of BOS-LHR, only JFK-LHR, ORD-LHR, and possibly IAD-LHR beat it).

An A380 could easily be used by VS or BA (if they ever order them) during the seasonal months. It's just the fact is Massport royally screwed up when rebuilding Terminal E in simply adding on to the existing structure when really what is needed is a new, or expanded terminal E.

With NAS South Weymouth still not being used for anything (there has been talk of commercial and residential development of that land for years now with nothing), I think they should turn it into a cargo hub, get rid of all the cargo areas, move the AA, UPS, and UA hangars at North Cargo and expand terminal E to the west. Possibly even get rid of the DL, NW, and US hangars as well. Move those all down to South Cargo where FedEx, American Eagle, etc. are. Of course, I don't see this ever being done and with BOS's haphazard runway layout there's no room for a mid-field complex.

Again, if you ever want to see a part of the country where NIMBYs actually make a difference, come to Boston. It's a shame really too. They prevent a lot of the things that could make Boston a much greater city on a global scale than it already is, yet allow the state to drain $14 billion into a tunnel system that is already obsolete. I mean, three lanes for a downtown freeway? I love Boston but the politics here are truly f*cked up.

LH423
« On ne voit bien qu'avec le cœur. L'essentiel est invisible pour les yeux » Antoine de Saint-Exupéry
 
BOSSAN
Posts: 175
Joined: Tue Aug 03, 2004 11:49 am

RE: Is BOS A380 Ready?

Sun Feb 20, 2005 1:37 pm

I don't think that Logan, or the airlines serving Boston, need the A380.

The terminal configuration is not the main issue with use of the A380; the runway and taxiway configuration is the problem, and may never be "fixed" to allow the use of A380s. Massport began its design for the expansion of Terminal E before the A380 was in design studies at Airbus, but the fact that they did not design the terminal with wide gate spacing and dual jetways would be fixable in isolation; the neighbors make redesigning the entire airfield expensive and impractical.

Logan's traffic congestion issues also don't have to do with international flights; with about 20 European arrivals and departures per day (summer, peak), and a peak capacity of 120 takeoffs and landings per hour in good weather and 60 in bad (rising to 120 when Runway 14/32 is built), international flights aren't causing runway or taxiway congestion. The longer turnaround times for international flights also make them less affected by queues for takeoff. Logan also is not slot-controlled in the way that LGA, DCA and many European hubs are; the right to land at a particular time has no cash value. If Logan maxes out again, they can reduce the number of small-aircraft operations by imposing a fixed fee per departure and arrival (as they've threatened in the past), causing the Cape and Islands traffic to pay increased ticket prices or shift to larger aircraft.

Logan's international capacity bottleneck right now is customs; the arrivals section of Terminal E will be finished soon, which will double customs capacity and thus decrease gate dwell times for airliners during the afternoon peak.

Increased international gate capacity can come in the short term in 2 ways: the proposed 3-gate finger to the west of the existing Terminal E can be built, and federal inspection stations can be opened at the new Terminal A (to serve Air France's flights and Delta's service to small Canadian cities) and American's side of Terminal B (which was in their shelved reconstruction plans) allowing those terminals to handle international arrivals. Massport would also love it if Northwest would give up one of the jumbo-capable gates (2 or 3) it currently uses for domestic service, once jetBlue moves to Terminal C. In a pinch, they could use remote stands and buses -- uncomfortable, but many European hub airports use them extensively.

Increased aircraft capacity can come from using 747s instead of 777s and A340s, or increased frequency. The only multiple-daily flights from BOS are on BA (3x LHR), AF (3x CDG), AA (2x LHR) and LH (2x FRA); only BA and AA have an aircraft remain overnight giving a daytime return. Increased frequency to AMS, MXP, MUC, and the like would stretch that peak (between 3 and 6) and help keep Terminal E's gates and passenger accommodations from being fully utilized only a few hours per day.

One more thing in favor of increased aircraft frequency is cargo. My read of the statistics is that the A380 can accommodate 38 LD3 cargo containers, while the A340-300 and A330-300 can accommodate 32; that leads to a greater volume of cargo from increasing frequency with A330/340s than with replacing flights with A380s. (Incidentally, belly cargo is a major component of total transatlantic freight capacity, and a big reason not to move all cargo aircraft to a separate airport in Weymouth.) For some destinations, belly cargo is the only high-frequency cargo available; I'll bet you all of the lobster in Reykjavik and all of the "Icelandic char" in local supermarkets comes via Icelandair's 757s.

Finally, runs like Logan-Heathrow are not what the A380 was intended for. The A380 is designed with huge amounts of room inside intended for first-class seating, while many of the flights out of Boston only have business and coach seats. If filled with coach seats, the A380 could take an hour and a half to load and unload passengers (with twin jet bridges), which is a lot of overhead on the 6 hour flight to London. Boston is an O&D dominated airport, so can't rely on connections to fill large planes. Because of its location and its stature in some industries, Boston punches above its weight in transatlantic flights, but honestly speaking, Boston isn't big enough and it isn't rich enough to fill up several A380s per day.

The A380 has two main advantages: more passengers through slot-controlled airports (which Logan is not) and a lower seat-mile cost. Would spending a conservative $2 billion to expand Logan's land area, move all of the runways and taxiways, move the cargo facilities to Weymouth, and tear down and rebuild Terminal E sound justified to handle a couple of flights per day by an airliner with 100 more seats than the existing ones? Not unless transatlantic traffic were set to triple in the next few years, and I sincerely doubt that.

I think Boston's a terrific city. I think the A380 sounds like a great plane. I just don't think the two of them fit together.
 
MQrampBOS
Posts: 105
Joined: Tue Feb 01, 2005 2:39 pm

RE: Is BOS A380 Ready?

Thu Feb 24, 2005 8:34 am

Quoting PHLBOS (reply 28):
Excuse me, but the last time the airfield at BOS was expanded (sometime during either the '40s, '50s, or '60s), the peninsula was indeed expanded. As a matter of fact, most of the modern city of Boston was built up on landfill.


Try during the 70s. There's a pile at the end of one of the runways (can't remember which one) that can't be removed because it alters the border. You point to examples which took place before eminent domain or consideration of boundaries of International waters. If I'm mistaken about the pile, someone let me know. However, I'm positive landfill expansion is no longer allowed.

Quoting ScottB (reply 34):
There was a proposal to build a new Boston airport at the site of Fort Devens out in Ayer/Harvard/Lancaster/Shirley, but that was nixed due to the distance and poor highway access from Boston. Can you imagine trying to get out there on Route 2 at rush hour?


I remember that. Glad they didn't. Too much of a headache. Could've been worse, like South Weymouth.
Don't put me on A7! I got out of the airport, so why send me back?
 
iwok
Posts: 979
Joined: Wed Jan 26, 2005 2:35 pm

RE: Is BOS A380 Ready?

Thu Feb 24, 2005 3:26 pm

Quoting Gigneil (reply 21):
It has not ever taken me more than 25 minutes to drive from downtown Denver to DEN under any traffic conditions.

Being a former Boston resident for 10-years, I can tell you that it often took me over 45 minutes to drive or T-it to the airport, from WITHIN the city of Boston. The new tunnel has helped a bit, but traffic is still a huge problem.

If you really want to get the A380 into Boston, it will have to be done the good ol' fashioned way... bribe the governor and mayor, give hush-money to southie residents and get the unions involved, and then pass on the bill to the Americal public. Problem solved.  Smile
 
LH423
Posts: 5868
Joined: Sun Jul 11, 1999 6:27 am

RE: Is BOS A380 Ready?

Thu Feb 24, 2005 3:51 pm

Quoting Iwok (reply 44):
I can tell you that it often took me over 45 minutes to drive or T-it to the airport, from WITHIN the city of Boston.


Of course...but it depends on where you're coming from. When I lived at home downtown, it never took me more than 35 minutes door-to-door. That means from leaving the apartment, walking to the subway station, train, and then the shuttle bus ride. It's all about where you are. A colleague has a similar commute time from Allston as I have from Providence.

Quoting MQrampBOS (reply 43):
I remember that. Glad they didn't. Too much of a headache. Could've been worse, like South Weymouth.


While I think Boston is one of the most accessible international airports in the world, the fact remains that it's on a non-expandable plot of land, hemmed in by dense popuation who ardently oppose expansion to the airport and eventually Logan will reach capacity. Then what? Sure it may not be years and years (I think BOS's capacity is around 45-50 million and is currently running at 27 million), but I think it's very near-sighted for Massport and the state government not to at least consider what will happen when that day comes? I think they've closed a lot of doors in regards to future plots for an eventual replacement for BOS. Also, it seems since 9.11 and the subsequent drop in passenger totals, Massport has done an about-face on pushing regionalization. They used to advertise how convenient PVD, ORH, and MHT were. Now they're advertising all the low-fare alternatives there are at Logan. Of course PVD, MHT, and to a lesser extent BED and ORH, will be there to take some of the pressure off BOS, Logan's growth last year was almost triple those of PVD and MHT. Despite regionalization BOS will continue to grow. We have to at least consider that one day BOS will become saturated and if we set aside an area of land now and look at ways to set up road and transit infrastructure (as to not end up with another YMX) now, when BOS does max out we can be prepared and build a new airport on a fresh area of land. Close BOS and the city of Boston and town of Winthrop gain 2,400 acres to do as they please.

LH423
« On ne voit bien qu'avec le cœur. L'essentiel est invisible pour les yeux » Antoine de Saint-Exupéry
 
PHLBOS
Posts: 6504
Joined: Thu Apr 01, 2004 6:38 am

RE: Is BOS A380 Ready?

Fri Feb 25, 2005 12:29 am

Quoting MQrampBOS (reply 43):
If I'm mistaken about the pile, someone let me know. However, I'm positive landfill expansion is no longer allowed.


A back issue of Airliners magazine had an article covering the history of BOS. To my knowledge, there was no mention of the landfill pile that you speak of. When I get home from work tonight, I will reread the article to confirm.

Also, any issue of landfill expansion not being allowed can be probably traced to new policies set forth by environmental regulatory agencies such as the City of Boston Conservation Commission, the MADEP and/or the Army Corp. of Engineers.

As far as the International Waters issue is concerned, if any landfill expansion impedes the ability of a body of water to remain as a navigatable water; then the expanding boundary issue prohibition that you speak of would come into play here. This is just my speculation and I could be wrong. If someone could verify this (with a source), it would be much appreciated.
"TransEastern! You'll feel like you've never left the ground because we treat you like dirt!" SNL Parady ad circa 1981
 
airbazar
Posts: 6874
Joined: Wed Sep 10, 2003 11:12 pm

RE: Is BOS A380 Ready?

Fri Feb 25, 2005 12:50 am

The A380 is designed with huge amounts of room inside intended for first-class seating, while many of the flights out of Boston only have business and coach seats.

BOSSAN, I didn't know that. I'd swear all of BA and VS 747's and LH's 340's have a 3 class configuration.

Boston isn't big enough and it isn't rich enough to fill up several A380s per day.

This I don't agree. The city with the second highest real estate market in the country, not rich enough? You put an A380 doing BOS-LHR or BOS-FRA in the Summer and I guarantee you nearly all seats will be filled. and not the cheap kind either.

We may not be getting the A380 anytime soon, but it certainly isn't because there's no demand.
 
PHLBOS
Posts: 6504
Joined: Thu Apr 01, 2004 6:38 am

RE: Is BOS A380 Ready?

Fri Feb 25, 2005 1:01 am

Quoting Airbazar (reply 47):
This I don't agree. The city with the second highest real estate market in the country, not rich enough?


In addition to Boston itself, the real estate rates for both central and eastern Masschusetts as well are way off the map; and have been for several years. When visiting family during the holidays, I nearly fell over when I found out what houses and apartemnt rents were going for.

[Edited 2005-02-24 17:04:02]
"TransEastern! You'll feel like you've never left the ground because we treat you like dirt!" SNL Parady ad circa 1981
 
flpuck6
Posts: 2047
Joined: Fri Jun 11, 1999 12:32 am

RE: Is BOS A380 Ready?

Fri Feb 25, 2005 1:01 am

BA has 4-class service to LHR. They have the only 4-class service anyway.

LH has 3-class service to FRA. They are consistently full. Their MUC service which was an A330-200 last year was 2-class. I don't know what they are going to use this summer.

VS has 3-class service to LHR on the 744. 2-class service on the A343 and A346 (perhaps I am wrong?).

LX has 3-class service, depending on the aircraft. They have a mix of 2- and 3-class service A330s.

EI has 2-class service.

AF has a mix of aircraft 2- and 3-class service depending on the aircraft. All A330s right now are 3-class. The 340s are a mix.

AZ is 2-class.

FI is 2-class.

I don't think BOS is A380 ready. Parking spaces at Terminal E are very tight. North Cargo hard stands don't offer any more space. The runways mab able able to take him but Terminal E can barely welcome 2 flights at once, I cannot imagine an A380 there.
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