OPNLguy
Topic Author
Posts: 11191
Joined: Tue Jun 15, 1999 11:29 am

AA To Build Love Field Hub If WA Repealed...

Sat Feb 19, 2005 3:10 pm

http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcont...tories/021905dnbusarpey.3ae20.html

Use http:///www.bugmenot.com if needed; this article's way too long to effectively summarize...

[Edited 2005-02-19 07:13:46]
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
User avatar
lightsaber
Crew
Posts: 11862
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2005 10:55 pm

RE: AA To Build Love Field Hub If WA Repealed...

Sat Feb 19, 2005 3:25 pm

Mr. Arpey said he views Love Field's master plan, which limits expansion at the airport, as "invalid" without the Wright amendment in place.

Holy cow batman! AA is going to play hardball! In the article, Southwest denies this position.

Had the airline known in 1998 that the Wright amendment might be altered, Mr. Arpey said, it would not have participated in the $2.7 billion capital improvement project that has created Terminal D and the SkyLink passenger shuttle system at D/FW. Probably very true.

Folks. We're looking at a long legal battle for DAL and the Wright Amendment.

I hope its repealed. What I do have a problem with is WN owning a majority of the allowed gates. If the WA is appealed, gates MUST be made available to other airlines even if its just so AA can play hardball. Dallas should not be forced to trade one monopoly for another. Let the free market reign (and pass the popcorn).

Lightsaber.
"They did not know it was impossible, so they did it!" - Mark Twain
 
ANCFlyer
Posts: 21391
Joined: Mon Nov 15, 2004 3:51 pm

RE: AA To Build Love Field Hub If WA Repealed...

Sat Feb 19, 2005 3:30 pm

Quoting Lightsaber (reply 1):
If the WA is appealed, gates MUST be made available to other airlines even if its just so AA can play hardball.


Bullshit, isn't AA the carrier that pitched a holy fit when WN entered teh scene and pretty much caused the Wright Amendement to be enacted. I say let 'em lay in their own bed . . . if they want more gates at DAL let them bloody well compete for them with everyone else.

WN is a proven winner and now AA sees they may have a little competition on their hands with this LLC (who happens to dominate in many areas). To bad AA.
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
User avatar
casinterest
Posts: 5393
Joined: Sat Feb 12, 2005 5:30 am

RE: AA To Build Love Field Hub If WA Repealed...

Sat Feb 19, 2005 3:30 pm

Wright Amendement = A federal law for a city/state issue. Repeal it and let Texas deal with it.
Older than I just was ,and younger than I will soo be.
 
User avatar
lightsaber
Crew
Posts: 11862
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2005 10:55 pm

RE: AA To Build Love Field Hub If WA Repealed...

Sat Feb 19, 2005 3:49 pm

ANCFlyer
Bullshit, isn't AA the carrier that pitched a holy fit when WN entered teh scene and pretty much caused the Wright Amendement to be enacted. I say let 'em lay in their own bed . . . if they want more gates at DAL let them bloody well compete for them with everyone else. mature reply...

Why are you ok with the master plan limiting the airport to the gates WN already owns? As I said, I have a problem with them trading one monopoly for another instead of doing the right thing (instead of the Wright thing?).  Big grin WN signed the master plan limiting DAL to 32 gates (Where WN owns all but two of the allowed expansion) and only THEN changes their position on the WA. Sorry... I'll call a spade a spade. There will be no gate compitition. WN already owns them. Your reply makes as much sense as saying that all air service must now be at DFW but no more gates can be built thus locking in AA's position.

I want the WA repealed, but not for one company's benefit. There should be airport compitition within a large city and airline compitition within the airports. WN is a big company, they can play by the rules that allow compitition.


Lightsaber
"They did not know it was impossible, so they did it!" - Mark Twain
 
Lono
Posts: 1136
Joined: Sun Apr 04, 2004 5:47 pm

RE: AA To Build Love Field Hub If WA Repealed...

Sat Feb 19, 2005 4:03 pm

The repeal of the WA will mean DFW/DAL will fight over a ever growing smaller piece of the pie... DAL should have been closed when DFW opened... now the motroplex will suffer if AA and WN get into a pissing match.... WN will lose this one for sure... AA has the muscle and the FF program that will hurt WN... bout time I say... put WN in their place... It will be interesting to see these Texas carriers beat the hell out of each other... AA will win this one and WN will take a major step back... but DFW will suffer big time... I say "Are you ready to rumble...."... AA is a monster and WN will get slammed... Good riddance to WN... bring it on.... time to play airline!!!
Wally Bird Ruled the Skys!
 
SWALoveField
Posts: 151
Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2005 2:49 pm

RE: AA To Build Love Field Hub If WA Repealed...

Sat Feb 19, 2005 4:16 pm

WN has proven over and over and over that they will prevail. When the WA forced them into flying only short-haul, they made it their business plan and is now the most successful airline while legacies struggle.

WN will win this one as well. If the WA is repealed, WN will win. If it isn't repealed they will keep making money while AA loses millions and billions of dollars.

Just because you are big (AA) doesn't mean you will win. David will beat Goliath.

Regards,

Robb
Dallas, TX

"You can't spell win without WN"
 
texdravid
Posts: 1397
Joined: Fri May 14, 2004 3:21 pm

RE: AA To Build Love Field Hub If WA Repealed...

Sat Feb 19, 2005 4:29 pm

There are good and bad repercussions with the repeal of the Wright Amendment.

Good: Cheaper flights from the DFW area. Competition to AA's monopoly to distant cities.

Bad: More crowding at an already crowded Love Field. Noise around the Love Field area. Most importantly to DFW(the airport) fans like me....DFW will suffer right when a new terminal opens.

Maybe the status quo isn't so bad is it?
Tort reform now. Throw lawyers in jail later.
 
stirling
Posts: 3897
Joined: Sat Jun 12, 2004 2:00 am

RE: AA To Build Love Field Hub If WA Repealed...

Sat Feb 19, 2005 5:21 pm

The reality is that the Metroplex continues to grow at a rate usually exceeding the national averages.
Most growth, not all of it, but a good chunk of it is on the Eastern side, Dallas and Collin Counties.
Think about this, In 2040, DFW will be as big as NYC is now, 11 million people.
Will one and a half airports be able to handle this population surge?
No.
Wright will be appealed, some day, it's only a matter of time.
Delete this User
 
AzoresLover
Posts: 756
Joined: Sun Jun 27, 2004 4:43 am

RE: AA To Build Love Field Hub If WA Repealed...

Sat Feb 19, 2005 7:11 pm

Quoting Lono (reply 5):
put WN in their place


Why?

For having a business plan that works?
For being profitable during their whole 30+ years of existence?
For bringing affordable air travel to the general population?
For having a corporate culture that works?
For maintaining profitability and no employee layoffs right through post 9/11?
For being a continually admired company in various business publications?

Competition, change, survival of the fittest, it's all part of the American economy.

I'm not an industry worker or an insider, just an enthusiast who loves to fly, so I recognize that I don't know all the "facts and figures" that other more knowledgeable people here would have. But my personal feeling is, they've been successful in their chosen business plan, and like them or not, they should be admired for that aspect at least.

My personal flying preference...I'll take WN on short hops, and I've always enjoyed the experience...BUT...for longer hops, anything longer than about 2 hours, I still prefer to fly a legacy, and I always do. I've always liked AA, and will continue to fly them, among other legacies. But as an outsider to the industry, I tend to be sort of amused at reading the passionate arguments on both sides of the WA issue.

My feeling? Eventually the WA will be repealed.
Those who want to do something will find a way; those who don't will find an excuse.
 
OPNLguy
Topic Author
Posts: 11191
Joined: Tue Jun 15, 1999 11:29 am

RE: AA To Build Love Field Hub If WA Repealed...

Sat Feb 19, 2005 11:35 pm

Another article from the Fort Worth paper:

http://www.dfw.com/mld/dfw/business/10942637.htm

AA seems to be running a "FUD" campaign, i.e. create "fear, uncertainty, and doubt" about the effects of WA repeal.

As an example, there is no doubt that AA would have some flights at Love were the WA to be repealed, but trumpeting it as a "hub" sounds as if it's intended to conjure up the image (to Love-area residents) that AA is moving the whole DFW operation to Love, which they're obviously not.

As another example, AA is also now trying to link WA repeal with the Love Master Plan and its 32-gate limit. The prospect of more flights than a 32-gate Love could provide further reinforces the first example above, and telegraphs the fact that there will be court battles to come over the Love Master Plan should the WA be repealed. Mayor Laura Miller says AA is wrong in its assertion, but she also sits on the DFW Board, so this should get really interesting...

The conclusion they (AA) seem to want everyone to reach is that it would just be simplier and more convenient for everyone to leave things just the way they are..(and oh by the way, folks will still pay higher airfares at DFW).

I expect to start seeing stories any day now that attempt to bring "safety" into the issue, i.e. Love is some killer death-trap accident-waiting-to-happen airport. Of course, if the WA is repealed, AA will still want to operate here...  Insane

[Edited 2005-02-19 15:39:01]
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
jsnww81
Posts: 2301
Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2002 3:29 am

AA To Build Love Field Hub If WA Repealed...

Sat Feb 19, 2005 11:57 pm

More posturing from American. They're so scared of competition it's almost funny.

After all, American operates from both O'Hare and Midway with little effect on its Chicago market share. I certainly don't hear them complaining about Fort Lauderdale sucking away their MIA passengers - in fact, they've been steadily building up FLL. The Dallas/Fort Worth market has been their 'golden goose' for the past five years (ever since Delta started watering down its DFW hub) and they're too lazy to come up with a new business model that doesn't involve gouging North Texas passengers.

While Southwest has been out perfecting the art of making money and pleasing passengers, American has only gotten adept at whining. Perhaps they should focus on something new for a change. And this comes from a loyal American flier.
 
AA717driver
Posts: 1502
Joined: Tue Feb 12, 2002 8:27 am

RE: AA To Build Love Field Hub If WA Repealed...

Sun Feb 20, 2005 12:01 am

Pssst. Psssst. Hey, AA, this isn't Legacy Airlines you're going after.

Typical heavy-handed tactics by AA. "Well, we'll just run you out of business if you don't stay out of OUR neighborhood." Right. I'm sure Jim Parker is shaking in his boots...TC
FL450, M.85
 
OPNLguy
Topic Author
Posts: 11191
Joined: Tue Jun 15, 1999 11:29 am

RE: AA To Build Love Field Hub If WA Repealed...

Sun Feb 20, 2005 12:09 am

>>>I'm sure Jim Parker is shaking in his boots...TC

Actually, Jim Parker is out by the pool, since he retired. Gary Kelly took his place, and was the one who announced the change in WA position back in November 2004. In any event, Gary wouldn't shake in his boots either...  Big grin

That was "Legend" at Love...

[Edited 2005-02-19 16:11:24]
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
N1120A
Posts: 26468
Joined: Sun Dec 14, 2003 5:40 pm

RE: AA To Build Love Field Hub If WA Repealed...

Sun Feb 20, 2005 12:16 am

>What I do have a problem with is WN owning a majority of the allowed gates.<

Well, if you are "letting the free market reign" you should have no problem with that.

?If the WA is appealed, gates MUST be made available to other airlines even if its just so AA can play hardball.<

Why? So AA can lose again like they did at LGB?


>Dallas should not be forced to trade one monopoly for another. Let the free market reign<

In free markets, monopolies are allowed. Then again, WN does not have a monopoly on service to the Metroplex. They have plenty of competition from AA and all the other carriers at DFW as well as COex at DAL.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
N62NA
Posts: 4011
Joined: Sun Aug 10, 2003 1:05 am

RE: AA To Build Love Field Hub If WA Repealed...

Sun Feb 20, 2005 12:25 am

Quoting CasInterest (reply 3):
Wright Amendement = A federal law for a city/state issue. Repeal it and let Texas deal with it.


I agree! That needs to be the first thing to happen.
 
alb222
Posts: 217
Joined: Thu Jan 27, 2005 9:16 am

RE: AA To Build Love Field Hub If WA Repealed...

Sun Feb 20, 2005 12:59 am

AA will do whatever they can to keep the Wright Amendment. Their cost structure etc. cannot compete with WN.
However in the end I do believe the Wright Amendment will go. Look out for some fireworks.
 
N1120A
Posts: 26468
Joined: Sun Dec 14, 2003 5:40 pm

RE: AA To Build Love Field Hub If WA Repealed...

Sun Feb 20, 2005 1:04 am

>Wright Amendement = A federal law for a city/state issue. Repeal it and let Texas deal with it.<

Except that air traffic is controlled by the federal government and anything regarding air travel and airports is a federal issue. Also, the sponser of the bill was a local representative.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
CLEfan
Posts: 292
Joined: Tue Nov 20, 2001 5:10 am

RE: AA To Build Love Field Hub If WA Repealed...

Sun Feb 20, 2005 1:38 am

Quoting N1120A (reply 17):
>Wright Amendement = A federal law for a city/state issue. Repeal it and let Texas deal with it.<

Except that air traffic is controlled by the federal government and anything regarding air travel and airports is a federal issue. Also, the sponser of the bill was a local representative.


To expand on this, air travel is considered part of interstate commerce, which Congress can regulate persuant to the commerce clause, Article 1, Section 8 of the Consititution.
 
incitatus
Posts: 2713
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 1:49 am

RE: AA To Build Love Field Hub If WA Repealed...

Sun Feb 20, 2005 2:07 am

Quoting N1120A (reply 14):
>Dallas should not be forced to trade one monopoly for another. Let the free market reign<

In free markets, monopolies are allowed.



There is no such thing as unregulated free market. Government regulation is all around us at all levels. Lots of US towns don't even allow people to fence their lots with a 3-ft tall fence. So how many planes land in an urban airport is a government matter, though W.A. is not in the right stance.
Stop pop up ads
 
DCA-ROCguy
Posts: 3894
Joined: Fri Apr 21, 2000 5:03 am

RE: AA To Build Love Field Hub If WA Repealed...

Sun Feb 20, 2005 2:38 am

Thanks Jsnww81 for providing context. American is well familiar with operating at multiple airports within a region. Arpey's statements in the article are outright hysterical, and embarrassing. AA would probably settle on running a few flights to key markets from Love, like they do at MDW, and get on with life.

The idea that there would be a stampede of other carriers from DFW to Love is ludicrous. Several posters have noted in other threads that DFW is much more centrally located within the Metroplex than is Love. Downtown Dallas isn't all the business action in the region, either.

The bottom line is that AA wants to keep charging artificially high fares at DFW, and gouging Metroplex travelers (and those of us who go there). AA can shove it. It's time for broad-scale airfare accountability in the Metroplex, by the carrier best positioned to provide it--at the low-cost, uncongested airport where they operate now.

Jim
Need a new airline paint scheme? Better call Saul! (Bass that is)
 
N62NA
Posts: 4011
Joined: Sun Aug 10, 2003 1:05 am

RE: AA To Build Love Field Hub If WA Repealed...

Sun Feb 20, 2005 3:23 am

Quoting CLEfan (reply 18):
To expand on this, air travel is considered part of interstate commerce, which Congress can regulate persuant to the commerce clause, Article 1, Section 8 of the Consititution.


True, but choosing not to regulate (i.e. repeal the Wright Amendment) is something within the power of Congress, too.
 
User avatar
casinterest
Posts: 5393
Joined: Sat Feb 12, 2005 5:30 am

RE: AA To Build Love Field Hub If WA Repealed...

Sun Feb 20, 2005 3:37 am

Quoting CLEfan (reply 18):
To expand on this, air travel is considered part of interstate commerce, which Congress can regulate persuant to the commerce clause, Article 1, Section 8 of the Consititution.



Yes, but when it all comes down to it, the only ones really concerned with keeping the wright amendment in place, are
1. DFW,
2. AA,
3. Politicians in the DFW metro area.

This issue is not about interstate commerce, but about protecting a local investment, and a monopoly
Older than I just was ,and younger than I will soo be.
 
N62NA
Posts: 4011
Joined: Sun Aug 10, 2003 1:05 am

RE: AA To Build Love Field Hub If WA Repealed...

Sun Feb 20, 2005 3:42 am

Well put, CasInterest, which is why it should be repealed and the locals should be left to deal with the situation.
 
ouboy79
Posts: 4113
Joined: Sun Nov 18, 2001 1:48 pm

RE: AA To Build Love Field Hub If WA Repealed...

Sun Feb 20, 2005 3:46 am

Should it happen? Sure you can throw the doors open and see what happens...but will it really benefit anyone? Not really. Idealy they should embark on a slow run down of the WA. They did it last time by getting rid of the restrictions on various airports. My idea...

Eliminate all restrictions on seat numbers and distance out of Love. HOWEVER. For the first 3 years of this plan...airlines may only expand or offer new services not currently offered to cities that hold the "Non-Hub Primary" classification by the FAA. This opens up cities such as SGF, MOB, TOL, FWA, ROA, DAB, etc to service. The next step over the following 3-5 years will be opening routes to airports classified as "Small Hub Primary" classification - this brings in airports the size of OKC, BHM, ROC, RIC, SYR, DSM, etc. The next step over the next 2-3 years would be "Medium Hub Primary" airports the size of PDX, MEM, CLE, MCI, IND, etc. Then finally "Large Hub Primary" airports which are your ATL, ORD, LAX, PHX, etc over the final 5 years. Why do it this way? In ensures both airlines won't get into a complete pissing match over the mutual destruction of both companies, but will also benefit smaller communities that may be hurt by a weaker DFW hub.

Lets be honest...Southwest may reach a good chunk of the nation, but that doesn't help the cities they ignore while surrounding airports see great growth. This step process really should have been one used when various airports were de-slotted...and how DCA and LGA should be handled now.

Reregulation? Not sure I would go that far...but it would at least maintain order to keep anyone from going too insane.
 
wjcandee
Posts: 5188
Joined: Mon Jun 05, 2000 12:50 am

RE: AA To Build Love Field Hub If WA Repealed...

Sun Feb 20, 2005 3:59 am

AA used the same scare tactic years ago when this came up before. Crandall said, "We've got the complexes all ready to go," or something similar. IMO, It's total b.s. IMO, all they're trying to do is scare the Love Field area homeowners into thinking that there will be a huge spike in noisy traffic, and thus to get them to oppose the lifting of the ban.

American used to spend whatever it took to defend its turf (witness its response to Legend, and how it dumped that service, as everyone knew it would, as soon as Legend tanked). They don't have the money to do it now, if they're going to be responsible with their funds.

My opinion is that it was bs then and it's bs now. They're just rolling out the old tired playbook. MY opinion is that they are shameless, arrogant jerks who will say and do anything to get what they want. Which is why I try to avoid ever giving them any of my money.

--Bill

[Edited 2005-02-19 20:01:51]

[Edited 2005-02-19 20:03:04]
 
ckfred
Posts: 4734
Joined: Wed Apr 25, 2001 12:50 pm

RE: AA To Build Love Field Hub If WA Repealed...

Sun Feb 20, 2005 4:19 am

If I remember my histroy correctly, the federal government didn't want to spend money to help build DFW while still handing out money for Meacham and Love. So the deal was to limit air service at Meachan and Love, so that the bulk of federal money went into DFW.

Here's one idea that is a bone for WN, but keeps AA from having to build a hub at DAL. Allow airlines to sell tickets for cities outside the limits of the Wright Amendment, but don't allow non-stop service beyond the Wright Amendment area.

If I wanted to fly WN from MDW to DAL, I would have to buy a roundtrip ticket for MDW-OKC and another one for OKC-DAL.

Loosening up this restriction would allow WN to go after more leisure traffic, while AA could still preserve its business traffic.
 
ConcordeBoy
Posts: 16852
Joined: Thu Feb 01, 2001 8:04 am

RE: AA To Build Love Field Hub If WA Repealed...

Sun Feb 20, 2005 4:25 am

Quoting Jsnww81 (reply 11):
I certainly don't hear them complaining about Fort Lauderdale sucking away their MIA passengers -

...this statement comes off as rather silly, considering that it's immediately followed by:
Quoting Jsnww81 (reply 11):
in fact, they've been steadily building up FLL.
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
txagkuwait
Posts: 1388
Joined: Fri Aug 27, 1999 7:39 am

RE: AA To Build Love Field Hub If WA Repealed...

Sun Feb 20, 2005 4:38 am

Justice will prevail and the WA will go.

Other airlines will not stampede to Love Field.....for one, it just won't hold the traffic.

if they do, Southwest would probably head to DFW where it could operate in relatively unencumbered bliss.

Ever wondered why Southwest doesn't want to be at the same airport as AA? It isn't competition. It is merely the fact that Southwest pilots don't like to taxi behind American aircraft....at a speed so slow that passengers can sit and watch out the window as turtles and snails pass their plane.

But it may be a moot point anyway. Southwest may announce next week that they have purchased Addison Airport lock, stock, and barrel and are commencing long haul flights from that facility.
 
DfwRevolution
Posts: 8590
Joined: Sat Jan 09, 2010 7:31 pm

RE: AA To Build Love Field Hub If WA Repealed...

Sun Feb 20, 2005 4:44 am

Quoting Lightsaber (reply 1):
What I do have a problem with is WN owning a majority of the allowed gates. If the WA is appealed, gates MUST be made available to other airlines even if its just so AA can play hardball


AA already has three gates, and WN can take no more than 24 gates in accordance with the Love Field Master Plan of 2001. Hey Dill...  Big grin

Quoting Lightsaber (reply 4):
WN signed the master plan limiting DAL to 32 gates (Where WN owns all but two of the allowed expansion) and only THEN changes their position on the WA. Sorry... I'll call a spade a spade. There will be no gate compitition. WN already owns them.


WN has 14 gates and rights to an additional 6. They are limited to no more than 24. Wrong again  Big grin

Quoting OPNLguy (reply 10):
AA seems to be running a "FUD" campaign, i.e. create "fear, uncertainty, and doubt" about the effects of WA repeal.


That's an understatement!!  Nuts

The real jewel in the article was where Arpey said that they never would have signed off on the DFW airport enhancement in 1998 if they had known the W.A. would be repealed in the next decade. Oh I'm sure  Insane
 
OPNLguy
Topic Author
Posts: 11191
Joined: Tue Jun 15, 1999 11:29 am

RE: AA To Build Love Field Hub If WA Repealed...

Sun Feb 20, 2005 5:33 am

Quoting Ckfred (reply 26):
Here's one idea that is a bone for WN, but keeps AA from having to build a hub at DAL. Allow airlines to sell tickets for cities outside the limits of the Wright Amendment, but don't allow non-stop service beyond the Wright Amendment area.

If I wanted to fly WN from MDW to DAL, I would have to buy a roundtrip ticket for MDW-OKC and another one for OKC-DAL.

Loosening up this restriction would allow WN to go after more leisure traffic, while AA could still preserve its business traffic.


Is it just me, or is what you're proposing in the 1st paragraph the opposite of your example in the 2nd paragraph?

People are already doing that today, just so they can get a cheap fare from DAL to points beyond the WA. If your idea in the 1st paragraph was put to use, they could still buy their DAL-MDW ticket but the aircraft would operate DAL-OKC-MDW, theoretically, of course.

I think only and outright WA repeal is likely, as folks are tired of all these hoops they must jump through, and just want to see DAL treated as any other airport as far as service choices are concerned....(long-haul international service excluded, of course.)
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
Okie
Posts: 3555
Joined: Wed Jul 16, 2003 11:30 am

RE: AA To Build Love Field Hub If WA Repealed...

Sun Feb 20, 2005 6:40 am

I am surprised that CO has not weighed in on the issue of the WA
I know COex operates DAL-IAH and CO has not had anything to say or have been interviewed in reference to the WA.

Okie
 
DfwRevolution
Posts: 8590
Joined: Sat Jan 09, 2010 7:31 pm

RE: AA To Build Love Field Hub If WA Repealed...

Sun Feb 20, 2005 6:48 am

Quoting Okie (reply 31):


North Texas isn't much of a focus area for CO. They only have 3 gates at DFW and 2 gates at DAL, with flights connecting to CO hubs only.... the W.A. wouldn't much affect their business.
 
txagkuwait
Posts: 1388
Joined: Fri Aug 27, 1999 7:39 am

RE: AA To Build Love Field Hub If WA Repealed...

Sun Feb 20, 2005 8:21 am

I've said it before but it bears repeating. The last thing on earth AA should want is WN at DFW.

If Wright is repealed, and Southwest is allowed to do long hauls from Love Field, then the physical constraints on Love Field put a cap on the amount of capacity they can offer.

Yes, American will lose some O&D traffic to Love Field, but they won't lose it all. There are some people who find DFW more convenient. American will get those folks. There are some people who don't like Southwest at all. Not many, but some. American will get those people. American will continue to operate their megahub at DFW and Southwest will be over on the other side of town.

Now....if you force Southwest to DFW....then it is totally level playing field and Southwest will eat American's lunch. Yes, it will cost Southwest some money to set up and operate a new station at DFW. They can, however, afford it. The folks that can't afford a protracted battle with Southwest is American.

All these threats and posturing by American are nothing more than whistling while one passes the cemetery. I don't think American's management is stupid enough to want to commit corporate suicide. Going head-to-head with Southwest is exactly that---corporate suicide.
 
brons2
Posts: 2462
Joined: Tue Sep 25, 2001 1:02 pm

RE: AA To Build Love Field Hub If WA Repealed...

Sun Feb 20, 2005 9:04 am

Quote:
Here's one idea that is a bone for WN, but keeps AA from having to build a hub at DAL. Allow airlines to sell tickets for cities outside the limits of the Wright Amendment, but don't allow non-stop service beyond the Wright Amendment area.

If I wanted to fly WN from MDW to DAL, I would have to buy a roundtrip ticket for MDW-OKC and another one for OKC-DAL.


This can already be done on WN.

The biggest fallacy of all the tooth-gnashing that is going on is that the idea that AA will have a huge expansion at DAL. There isn't going to be enough gates for it, therefore the only purpose of his statements is to create FUD among DAL neighbors.

I guess AA's brand equity is not strong enough to draw people to DFW, that's one other thing that this says.

o brother.
Firings, if well done, are good for employee morale.
 
AAgent
Posts: 540
Joined: Thu Mar 29, 2001 11:41 pm

RE: AA To Build Love Field Hub If WA Repealed...

Sun Feb 20, 2005 9:14 am

It is clear that there are passionate arguments both for and against the repeal of the Wright Amendment. However, it would appear that American Airlines has no intention of simply standing by while WN flies off with their passengers. And for those who may believe AA is "wounded" and in no position to fight, don't forget, a wounded beast is often at it's most lethal. Remember, all is fair in LUV and WAAR. Let the games begin!

Regards,
AAgent
War Eagle!
 
DfwRevolution
Posts: 8590
Joined: Sat Jan 09, 2010 7:31 pm

RE: AA To Build Love Field Hub If WA Repealed...

Sun Feb 20, 2005 9:45 am

Quoting AAgent (reply 35):
And for those who may believe AA is "wounded" and in no position to fight, don't forget, a wounded beast is often at it's most lethal


Suuuuree... AA and WN squared off in the 90s over intra-Texas traffic, and AA had their asses handed to them.

Quoting AAgent (reply 35):
Remember, all is fair in LUV and WAAR. Let the games begin!


And AA has taken the first step of pissing on the names of truth and integrity.

Read the article in the DMN, Arpey and Cox' rhetoric is so full of spin and deceit god knows they are in bed. They are like bad comedians trying to give each other drops...
 
2H4
Posts: 7960
Joined: Tue Oct 19, 2004 11:11 pm

RE: AA To Build Love Field Hub If WA Repealed...

Sun Feb 20, 2005 9:59 am

Quoting TxAgKuwait (reply 33):
I don't think American's management is stupid enough to want to commit corporate suicide.



Never underestimate the stupidity of traditional airline management.

 Big grin



2H4
Intentionally Left Blank
 
blsbls99
Posts: 341
Joined: Sat Sep 25, 2004 5:07 pm

RE: AA To Build Love Field Hub If WA Repealed...

Sun Feb 20, 2005 10:33 am

What was the real purpose of the WA? And hasn't it served it's purpose by now?
Wasn't MDW at one point an under-utilized airfield once O'Hare opened? Then Midway Airlines came in and started their hub and service. And nowadays it is Southwest and ATA land. UA and AA sure don't have a problem staying at O'Hare.
Would DAL be limited with "slots" or takeoffs/landings at some point (or due to gates) if the WA was repealed?
I don't think that AA should be allowed too much to say in this matter. Their predatory tactics when Legend was in the market, and when Legend went out of business, reveals their true intentions when it comes to their Dallas fortress.
319 320 313 722 732 733 735 73G 738 739 742 752 763 772 CRJ D9S ERJ EMB L10 M88 M90 SF3 AT4
 
User avatar
lightsaber
Crew
Posts: 11862
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2005 10:55 pm

RE: AA To Build Love Field Hub If WA Repealed...

Sun Feb 20, 2005 10:50 am

DfwRevolution (reply 29):
I didn't know about the limit of 24 (out of 32) limit for WN. I must retract my previous objections. Thanks! All I needed was that added bit of information.  Embarrassment

Hmmm... But WN owns the old unused terminal building... Oh well, someone else builds another one. That's an ok solution in my book.

Overall I just didn't want another "teapot dome" where a federal law is done for one company's benefit.

thanks for clarifying! Oops... At least I admit when I had my foot in my mouth! I'll go back to engine engineering...  Smile

Lightsaber
"They did not know it was impossible, so they did it!" - Mark Twain
 
texan
Posts: 4061
Joined: Tue Dec 23, 2003 2:23 am

RE: AA To Build Love Field Hub If WA Repealed...

Sun Feb 20, 2005 11:29 am

First off, the Master Plan, the one made by the City of Dallas Aviation Division, will not be subject to the repeal of the Wright Amendment. If the city decides to amend it, then it will amend it, but no amount of posturing by AA will force the city to revise the Master Plan.

Secondly, WN does not own all the gates at DAL. WN has half of the remaining gates (16 currently in use, 16 available); the other half belong to AA, along with a large concourse (the easternmost one, the first one seen while driving up to the main terminal).

Thirdly, DAL does not have the infrastructure to support a major (500+ daily flights) hub. AA has 97 gates at DFW, 8 gates at DAL will not replace the economic machine they have built out at DFW.

Fourthly, the majority of the people in the City of Dallas would like to see the Wright Amendment repealed. The City and our Congressmen and women are receiving copious amounts of letters and phone calls asking for the repeal of the Wright Amendment. It is to the point that The Dallas Morning News prints an article on the Wright Amendment or the state of aviation in Dallas nearly every day. When the DMN starts focusing on aviation matters obsessively it means that there is something big going on in Dallas aviation.

Fifthly, the government is more likely to listen to a profitable carrier whose services are wanted in many cities than to the current airlines whose fares have stymied air traffic in many small-medium sized communities. Those Congressmen and women want to help out Southwest in an effort to attract them to their neighborhoods. If repealing the Wright Amendment might get them an audience with the people at WN (specifically Chief of Governmental and Legal Affairs Ron Ricks), a large portion will be willing to repeal it.

Texan
"I have always imagined that Paradise will be a kind of library."
 
LoneStarMike
Posts: 2802
Joined: Sat Jul 01, 2000 1:02 pm

RE: AA To Build Love Field Hub If WA Repealed...

Sun Feb 20, 2005 11:54 am

Secondly, WN does not own all the gates at DAL. WN has half of the remaining gates (16 currently in use, 16 available); the other half belong to AA, along with a large concourse (the easternmost one, the first one seen while driving up to the main terminal).

That is incorrect. Southwest holds the lease on it's 14 gates in the West Conourse (those leases expire December 16, 2006, btw). Additionally Southwest holds the lease on the North Concourse which could be converted back to six gates.

American holds the lease on three gates and Continental Express has two. The large concourse you refer to was torn down over three years ago and AA paid for it's demolition. In its place, Southwest is building a new cargo facility to replace the existing one and according to an e-mail I received from the City of Dallas Department of Aviation that facility is expected to be completed by June 2006.

The only other gates are the ones at Legend's Terminal and I don't believe AA owns those.

LoneStarMike

 
texan
Posts: 4061
Joined: Tue Dec 23, 2003 2:23 am

RE: AA To Build Love Field Hub If WA Repealed...

Sun Feb 20, 2005 12:05 pm

LoneStarMike

My apologies! Guess that's what I get for using the DMN as my source on that info  Smile

Texan
"I have always imagined that Paradise will be a kind of library."
 
tu154
Posts: 334
Joined: Fri Dec 17, 2004 1:37 am

RE: AA To Build Love Field Hub If WA Repealed...

Sun Feb 20, 2005 12:52 pm

Of course they are. Could AA ever think up something on their own??? They always have to have their hand..........or in this case, wings, in everything. AA is like the kid on the playground that whines and whines and wants whatever everyone else has. Remember Willie Wonka?? Which child do you think AA would be????
FIRST ON THE ATLANTIC.....FIRST ON THE PACIFIC.....FIRST IN LATIN AMERICA...FIRST 'ROUND THE WORLD.....PAN AM!!
 
RogerThat
Posts: 505
Joined: Wed Dec 17, 2003 12:13 pm

RE: AA To Build Love Field Hub If WA Repealed...

Sun Feb 20, 2005 1:58 pm

Hey all you Southwest people: Where does DAL rank on Southwest's biggest station list? I seem to remember reading on here that PHX, LAS, BWI and possibly MDW are all bigger than DAL. DFW is AA's big dog so I can't say I blame them for putting up a fight.

If anybody remembers the old days, airliners stopped at Fort Worth's Greater Southwest Airport and Love field. This made nobody happy, hence the US Govt forcing the two cities to get together to come up with the D/FW Regional Airport.


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Mel Lawrence




View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Bob Garrard



We wouldn't even be talking about this if Herb didn't find a loophole in the agreement the cities made to move all the airlines to DFW.
 
incitatus
Posts: 2713
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 1:49 am

RE: AA To Build Love Field Hub If WA Repealed...

Sun Feb 20, 2005 1:59 pm

Quoting Texan (reply 40):
Fourthly, the majority of the people in the City of Dallas would like to see the Wright Amendment repealed.


The city of Dallas is only 20% of the metropolitan area - the 20% with the most crime and the worst schools.


Quoting Texan (reply 40):
Fifthly, the government is more likely to listen to a profitable carrier whose services are wanted in many cities than to the current airlines whose fares have stymied air traffic in many small-medium sized communities.


If American has "stymied" air traffic, how can it possibly carry a most 100 million passengers a year? When booking for several trips recently I found American offering ~$300 while Continental and Delta wanted ~$1800.
Stop pop up ads
 
ckfred
Posts: 4734
Joined: Wed Apr 25, 2001 12:50 pm

RE: AA To Build Love Field Hub If WA Repealed...

Sun Feb 20, 2005 2:49 pm

For those of you knocking the idea of allowing one-stop service out of DAL, claiming that you can do it, my understanding is that WN can't check bags through MDW-OKC-DAL, because it can pull the OKC-DAL ticket at MDW. You have to claim your checked bags at OKC and recheck them for DAL.

This is like the days under the CAB that UA used to fly ORD-MCI, with the flights continuing on to the West Coast. A passenger could board the flight at ORD, if traveling beyond MCI, but UA could not sell an ORD-MCI ticket.

TxAgKuwait:

I don't think WN purposely avoids airports where AA operates, because AA pilots are too slow. Think of all the airports where WN and AA/Eagle operate, including LAX, SJC, BNA, RDU, SEA, and STL.

You are correct that AA pilots observe the FAA speed limit on the ground, while WN pilots try to see how fast they can taxi. WN pilots are paid for the scheduled flying time, so they purposefully move as fast as they can, knowing they don't get paid extra due to delays, no matter what the cause.

A friend of mine was flying 727s for AA when a WN plane tried to pass on the taxiway. The AA captain called ground control and asked if the WN plane was #2 behind him. The controller read the WN pilot the riot act and said that the next WN pilot who tried to pass on the taxiway would have to deal with a written report to the FAA.
 
DfwRevolution
Posts: 8590
Joined: Sat Jan 09, 2010 7:31 pm

RE: AA To Build Love Field Hub If WA Repealed...

Sun Feb 20, 2005 3:01 pm

Quoting RogerThat (reply 44):
Hey all you Southwest people: Where does DAL rank on Southwest's biggest station list? I seem to remember reading on here that PHX, LAS, BWI and possibly MDW are all bigger than DAL.


DAL has dropped significantly on the list. For that matter, WN's two largest cities are in the North East  Big grin

http://www.southwest.com/about_swa/press/factsheet.html

In order:
1. LAS
2. PHX
3. BWI
4. MDW
5. HOU
6. OAK
7. DAL

Once the new expansion at BWI and MDW is complete, these two cities will surpass LAS and PHX

Quoting Incitatus (reply 45):

If American has "stymied" air traffic, how can it possibly carry a most 100 million passengers a year? When booking for several trips recently I found American offering ~$300 while Continental and Delta wanted ~$1800.


I have no idea what route you were looking at, but DFW is the only major airport in the United States to see the average domestic ticket price rise post-deregulation. What does that say about competition?
 
txagkuwait
Posts: 1388
Joined: Fri Aug 27, 1999 7:39 am

RE: AA To Build Love Field Hub If WA Repealed...

Sun Feb 20, 2005 3:18 pm

>>You are correct that AA pilots observe the FAA speed limit on the ground, while WN pilots try to see how fast they can taxi. WN pilots are paid for the scheduled flying time, so they purposefully move as fast as they can, knowing they don't get paid extra due to delays, no matter what the cause.<<

Gee, I have often wondered what the FAA speed limit is. If in fact there is one....is there something like a minimum/maximum like you see on urban expressways....ie "Speed Limit 55...Minimum Speed 40"?

If so, I would suggest to you that American is way under the minimum a whole lot of the time.

And no, WN pilots are not paid for the scheduled flying time. What they are paid for is something called a TFP, better known as Trip-For-Pay.

It would seem that paying somebody an hourly wage for taxiing at an excruciatingly slow pace is counterproductive. It provides the pilot with an incentive to creep along, knowing he or she makes more the longer it takes to get to the terminal building, although this annoys the passengers who have paid good money for a timely arrival. But heck, it's just the passengers, right?
 
incitatus
Posts: 2713
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 1:49 am

RE: AA To Build Love Field Hub If WA Repealed...

Mon Feb 21, 2005 2:55 am

Quoting DfwRevolution (reply 47):
I have no idea what route you were looking at, but DFW is the only major airport in the United States to see the average domestic ticket price rise post-deregulation. What does that say about competition?


When was deregulation again? Should we pull Braniff into the discussion of repealing the W.A. as well? NOWADAYS the average price that American charges per mile is smaller than Southwest. Check their latest financial statements. American charged an average of 11.3 cents per mile, while Southwest charged 12 cents per mile. While some of that is due to Southwest's shorter haul, it indicates fares are on average, similar.
Stop pop up ads