Sammyhostie
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AF Cabin Crew Fatality - RIP

Sun Feb 20, 2005 6:38 pm

On Tuesday the 1st of February in Paris Orly, an Air France Cabin Crew died when she fell from an a/c, when the stairs where removed from the 2L door of an A320.

The door had been used to disembark a pax who needed an ambulance. The accident happened while she was standing on the stairs platform to close the aircraft door. The stairs were removed and she fell out of the a/c, while another cabin crew member managed to jump back into the a/c just in time.

The poor lady was only 27, had a husband and 2 young children.

Last year in CFU i remember a TCX temp fell out of a rear door on the 75 whilst doing the same thing, she broke her pelvis, knee and shoulder.

Take care all fellow hosties out there.

[Edited 2005-02-20 10:40:12]
 
speedbird128
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RE: AF Cabin Crew Fatality - RIP

Sun Feb 20, 2005 6:46 pm

Hi Sammyhostie,

It is indeed very sad to hear this - I have heard from a friend this happens a lot. I know most aircraft have a (very visible) band that is clipped across the exit when it's open, but no stairs/PAU present... Surely the person removing the stairs should ensure this device is used?

Condolences to her family.

BAW128
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Sammyhostie
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RE: AF Cabin Crew Fatality - RIP

Sun Feb 20, 2005 6:51 pm

Yes we do put that across the aicraft door, but often when we pull the door in you balance one foot on the steps, and one foot in the aircraft to pull in the door to close it. So if the steps or whatever are pulled away you are caught unaware.

The airbus's are not usually too bad, but it certainly is very easy to fall out fo a door, especially on the Boeings where the doors are a lot heavier.
 
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lightsaber
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RE: AF Cabin Crew Fatality - RIP

Sun Feb 20, 2005 6:55 pm

A link:
http://www.turkishpress.com/business...s.asp?id=050219222145.akeeq9dt.xml

A similar thread, but going into the union action this incident caused (posted a few minutes before this thread):
http://www.airliners.net/discussions...eneral_aviation/read.main/1968358/

Poor lady... My condolences

Lightsaber
"They did not know it was impossible, so they did it!" - Mark Twain
 
speedbird128
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RE: AF Cabin Crew Fatality - RIP

Sun Feb 20, 2005 7:02 pm

Aaah, I understand now. Sad though...
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PVG
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RE: AF Cabin Crew Fatality - RIP

Sun Feb 20, 2005 8:21 pm

Commercial airliners are such sophisticated machines. They can fly thousands and thousands of miles around the world during a typical 15-20 year or longer life cycle. Why can't they design them so that the doors can be closed with the push of a button and all that needs to be done is for someone to close the latch from the inside? They can do it for mini-vans, but not for a $100 million airliner? I can't believe that the electric motors would that great of a weight penalty?

Condolences to the young lady's family.
 
Runway25
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RE: AF Cabin Crew Fatality - RIP

Sun Feb 20, 2005 8:54 pm

I think many people under estimate an FA's role. I as a passenger don't under estimate it & I would like to thank all FAs for "looking after me" on my regular flights.

This tragic accident proves their job can & does have dangerous scenarios.

My condolences to her family.
 
A340600
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RE: AF Cabin Crew Fatality - RIP

Sun Feb 20, 2005 9:08 pm

Condolences to her family, a great shame for something to happen like this. When you see them closing the doors, it always looks unsafe to me,

Sam
Despite the name I am a Boeing man through and through!
 
Sammyhostie
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RE: AF Cabin Crew Fatality - RIP

Sun Feb 20, 2005 9:31 pm

I dont mind closing airbus doors so much, but i hate and am honestly very scared when pulling in a Boeing door, especially when there is no steps there. There so heavy and we are so little!
 
TACAA320
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RE: AF Cabin Crew Fatality - RIP

Sun Feb 20, 2005 10:24 pm

It's unbelievable that accidents like this one occur in the 21 century.

Poor young lady. Poor young kids.
'Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind'. Albert Einstein
 
afboy
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RE: AF Cabin Crew Fatality - RIP

Sun Feb 20, 2005 11:05 pm

Air france has revealed that the ground agent is faulty because he didn't secure the stairs. The latter will very likely be punish. This has triggered the anger of the unions. and that's why ground agents at orly have decided to go on strike, which explains the mess at orly.
I personnally think that this is indecent towards the fa's family and relatives.
cheers
Flown: SF3, CRJ,CR7, AT7,E120,E145,146,RJ85,RJ100, F100, B727,732,733,734,735,736,772,A300,318, 319,320,321,343, M83, DC
 
zaphod
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RE: AF Cabin Crew Fatality - RIP

Sun Feb 20, 2005 11:18 pm

I walked into the Load Controller's office a couple of days back and I saw this poster there about Ramp Safety saying something like, Be alert when removing the steps, remember the AF F/A fatality.
I thought it was an old case.

This poster struck me because one of the BG staff here at DXB recently fell from the steps when the platform gave way. He was a catering staff who was climbing into the DC10 after some 70 odd passengers had decended. He suffered some serious injury but is now stable.
 
VictorTango
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RE: AF Cabin Crew Fatality - RIP

Mon Feb 21, 2005 12:04 am

In 2003, at Bombay while boarding a Jet Airways flight a passenger died when he fell off the stepladder through a gap between the 737 aircraft and the left corner of ladder. After that incident all stepladders at Jet Airways were fitted with safety railings.

Olly
 
swisswings
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RE: AF Cabin Crew Fatality - RIP

Mon Feb 21, 2005 1:02 am

Sad story and I feel sorry for the f/a's family. I am not surprised to see such a thing happening at a Paris airport. I often travel through CDG and observe unsafe behavior of employees often. ADP, as the company that runs the airports in Paris, is not what I would call a state-of-the art airport administration company. The chaotic situations you encounter at all terminals in CDG, the unsafe behaviors of bus drivers as well as unsafe constructions are somewhat typical for ADP. Hopefully, they are willing to learn and improve...
 
Beaucaire
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RE: AF Cabin Crew Fatality - RIP

Mon Feb 21, 2005 1:12 am

Swisswings - the sad incident happened at Orly airport - the crossroad of all french radical tradeunions ( SUD aérien,CGT...)..
It's time someone explains to these idiots that the customers they blocked and prevented from taking flights are the ones who pay their salaries...
But the intelligence level of these people does not go that far....
Please respect animals - don't eat them...
 
NYCAAer
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RE: AF Cabin Crew Fatality - RIP

Mon Feb 21, 2005 1:17 am

This has happened several times in the past at AA, but the F/As in question were injured, not killed, fortunately.

As a result, AA F/As do not open or close aircraft doors. Company policy is to have ground personnel open the doors from the outside, thus preventing this type of mishap.
 
nwacrew
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RE: AF Cabin Crew Fatality - RIP

Mon Feb 21, 2005 2:09 am

NYCAAer:

Didn't an American Airlines steward die a couple of years ago at a Florida airport, when he opened the main cabin door prior to the aircraft being depressurized? (There was a pressurization problem) He was blown out onto the tarmac and killed...
 
AWspicious
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RE: AF Cabin Crew Fatality - RIP

Mon Feb 21, 2005 2:16 am

It upsets me to no end when someone is killed in some stupid manner... Through no fault of their own. This unfortunate accident should not have occured! Yet, here we have a dead woman and two orphaned children all because some jackass didn't do his job properly.
There's gonna be those who question my haste to condem the ramp worker. But, hey... Tell it to the woman's husband... If the ramper was more attentive his wife would still be alive.
Nevermind political correctness - Envision using your turn signals!
 
airgeek12
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RE: AF Cabin Crew Fatality - RIP

Mon Feb 21, 2005 2:19 am

That's really sad. I feel really bad for her family, though. I still don't really understand it all though. OK.. so basicly she was trying to close the a/c door so one foot was on the stairs thingy and one foot in the a/c, than the stairs pulled away and so she like fell out? geek
 
swisswings
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RE: AF Cabin Crew Fatality - RIP

Mon Feb 21, 2005 2:34 am

Beaucaire: You are right, the accident happened at ORY. But, in fact, it doesn't make a difference since both airports, ORY and CDG are managed by ADP and the status quo at both places is the same. A mess.
 
wdleiser
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RE: AF Cabin Crew Fatality - RIP

Mon Feb 21, 2005 2:36 am

>>>Didn't an American Airlines steward die a couple of years ago at a Florida airport, when he opened the main cabin door prior to the aircraft being depressurized? (There was a pressurization problem) He was blown out onto the tarmac and killed...<<<<

I believe it was a 767 at MIA, had an emergency landing because of an indicated engine failure, the FA rushed to the door before the plane was depressurized, opened it, and was sucked out and died. There was no fire after the fact, just a false alarm.
 
spirit MD-80
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RE: AF Cabin Crew Fatality - RIP

Mon Feb 21, 2005 2:40 am

It was a A-300 not a 767
 
FlySSC
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RE: AF Cabin Crew Fatality - RIP

Mon Feb 21, 2005 4:27 am

Sammyhostie,

This terrible accident didn't occur exactely how you discriebed it.

The flight was arriving from BIQ (Biarritz). A passenger at the front was sick and there was a medical ermergency team taking care of him, so it was decided that the other PAX would disembark by the rear door.

After all the PAX have left the plane, the Captain asked to close the rear door. The two F/A stept out on the stairs platform to unlock the lateral safety panel that blocks the a/c door. At that moment, the stairs were removed. One of the F/A had just the time to jump back into the plane, the second one fell on the tarmac, between the stairs and the plane.

The normal procedure requires thet the ground staff, in charge of removing the stairs has to walk up to the platform and unlock the safety panel himself. The F/A are not supposed, and normally not allowed to do it.

Concerning the strike and the mess at ORY, everybody should be very carefull when talking about it. It is very easy to put the blame on one person only after such an accident.

The guy who removed the stairs (without removing the safety panel ) was recruited by AF less than two months ago and was nort properly trained (of course for saving money).
There is less and less ground staff to handle a/c, the same staff has to take care of the stairs, help for loading/unloading luggages, etc...
It is the same in all the airlines, always for the same good reasons : cutting costs and saving money.

And then, when a tragedy like this happen, it is always very easy to put all the blame on one person only, while the "Responsible Managers" who barely know what an a/c looks like (but took the decision to reduce the ground staff) stay comfortably seated in their office.

Morover, the police investigation about this accident is not finished yet. It is quite surprising and shocking that AF took already the decision to blame one person, in these conditions.
 
AlanUK
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RE: AF Cabin Crew Fatality - RIP

Mon Feb 21, 2005 4:37 am

Hi all,

Sad story indeed. It has happen to a BA crew member too, but she survived, although badly hurt (it was a 737, not as high as others). Since then BA has put out a very clear policy for Cabin Crew to open or close doors:

- Never open a door until ground equipment is in place and you have received 2 knocks from ground staff
- then count to 10 before opening the door
- Never place a foot outside the aircraft (opening and closing of doors must be made using assist handle and never jetty/steps)

It used to be that if the APU was broken, we could open doors 1L and 2/4/5R to get some air going... not anymore due to this new policy. (unless steps are in place).
 
Beaucaire
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RE: AF Cabin Crew Fatality - RIP

Mon Feb 21, 2005 4:42 am

FLYSCC - sorry but the topic is why on earth do trade-unions provoke a strike - which has been re-conducted at 17.30 hours by the way and they threaten to harden it...- because of a ramp-agent who clearly has a track-record of mis-behaviour and clearly did not follow the rules!!!!
Thousands of passengers are penalised because SUD and CGT want to show their muscles and power regardless of a not even officially pronounced firing of the agent.
The hostess is dead,two children are without mother and all the trade-unions find is to rotten the life of thousands of those who pay for their salary. This is typical french "Klassenkampf" or fight of the working classes aginst the establishment - it's becomming political !
Orly and CDG have a long history of unneccessary work-conflicts and those who ahve a job with Air France,ADP or any other institution active on the two Paris Airports should be glad they have a job .
Thousands of airline-workers have lost their jobs in France within the last years -partly because of a rotten system in France that many accuse but nobody dares to chage because of fears that the trade uniosn will bring the country to a halt!
I have lived in many counties but France is probabely the most rotten place when it come to trade union influence and power !!!!

[Edited 2005-02-20 20:43:49]
Please respect animals - don't eat them...
 
CORULEZ05
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RE: AF Cabin Crew Fatality - RIP

Mon Feb 21, 2005 4:44 am

Something similar happened on a CO flight somewhere in Central America I believe. However, I dont think it was a crew member but a disabled pax...VERY sad....my prayers are with her and the family.....talk about destiny....that is why my motto is "live each day of your life as if it was the last day".....you just never know.
Fly jetBlue today!!!!!!!
 
OB1504
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RE: AF Cabin Crew Fatality - RIP

Mon Feb 21, 2005 5:06 am

Quoting Wdleiser (reply 20):
I believe it was a 767 at MIA, had an emergency landing because of an indicated engine failure, the FA rushed to the door before the plane was depressurized, opened it, and was sucked out and died.


Technically he was pushed out by the escaping pressurized air, and as mentioned above, it was Airbus 300B4-605R N14056.

Quoting CORULEZ05 (reply 25):
Something similar happened on a CO flight somewhere in Central America I believe.


It involved Boeing 757-224 N14114 and it was in Lima, Peru, where a passenger was instructed to await at the top of the stairs truck while an F/A put his wheelchair into the cargo bin, but he continued to walk through the aft galley and out the catering door, falling to the tarmac between the aircraft and a catering truck. He later died from his injuries.

Going back to the original topic, her family has my condolences. I (unfortunately) know how hard it can be to lose a family member.
 
CORULEZ05
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RE: AF Cabin Crew Fatality - RIP

Mon Feb 21, 2005 5:08 am

Unfortunately, I myself know how hard it can be to lose family members, I have lost 5 immediate family members in the past 5 years.......so my heart goes out to the family of this young lady....very sad and heartbreaking.
Fly jetBlue today!!!!!!!
 
ua777222
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RE: AF Cabin Crew Fatality - RIP

Mon Feb 21, 2005 5:29 am

Quoting PVG (reply 5):
They can do it for mini-vans, but not for a $100 million airliner? I can't believe that the electric motors would that great of a weight penalty?


Outside of restrictions and other issues that would cause this door to not go into an aircraft I don't think airlines are willing to fork up so much for something that can be fixed with a few wake up calls. When a simple re-enforced dead bolt door costs an airline $20,000,000 a pop I don't even want to think about how much a motor door would cost. Not to mention that such a sensitive peace gets a lot of ware, human interaction, etc. and would require a lot of mx. Just wait until a buch of those go MX then the f/a's and crews will wish they could just pull the door shut themselves.

As stated before I don't think it's worth the investment from an airline's point of view. At a high cost they could spend much less on Ramp Awareness. Though this incident is a good example for why such a system should be installed, in my opinion, there are too many issues that would arise to put in place such a system. I have a lot of respect for those who work in the industry esp. those who work on the aircraft which is why I am deeply saddened by this crew loss. No loss be it a passenger or crew is good for the industry and should wake a few people up to the issue of ramp awareness.

Thanks again and RIP

Matt
"It wasn't raining when Noah built the ark."
 
airgeek12
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RE: AF Cabin Crew Fatality - RIP

Mon Feb 21, 2005 5:35 am

Thanks alot, FlySSC! I get it now, and that is really sad!  Sad
 
DLKAPA
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RE: AF Cabin Crew Fatality - RIP

Mon Feb 21, 2005 5:46 am

Now out of idle curiosity, the thread starter mentioned that she was standing on the outside, on the platform, to close the door. If she was flightcrew, wouldn't she be inside the a/c being that the door on the A320 (like all airliners) is plug type and has to be closed from inside?
And all at once the crowd begins to sing: Sometimes the hardest thing and the right thing are the same
 
aa757first
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RE: AF Cabin Crew Fatality - RIP

Mon Feb 21, 2005 7:41 am

[
Quoting UA777222 (reply 28):
When a simple re-enforced dead bolt door costs an airline $20,000,000 a pop I don't even want to think about how much a motor door would cost.


I assume very little. The B767 features electric assist at door 1L and the L1011 features electric assist at all doors except the auxiliary service doors, 3L and 3R.

I know several flight attendants and M/X staff who have said they have never seen an L1011 door go MX.

Quoting Aer Lingus (reply 31):
You won't probably die if you fall out a Boeing 737 because the aircraft is lower than Airbuses A32X.


I don't see this being A vs. B at all. Just a statement.

AAndrew
 
September11
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RE: AF Cabin Crew Fatality - RIP

Mon Feb 21, 2005 8:26 am

AF cabin crew .. my sympathy to Air France and employee.
all airlines will never forget this one. I am sure they will learn from death of AF F/A. I hope this will not happen again (knock on wood). I care about flight attendants - they know they are at safety risk. I was thinking did a flight attendant ever die while on duty inflight (off ground)? Air Florida crash into Potomac River - a flight attendant survived the crash. Did a flight attendant die on Ahola 737 midflight incident?
Airliners.net of the Future
 
ua777222
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RE: AF Cabin Crew Fatality - RIP

Mon Feb 21, 2005 8:36 am

Quoting Aa757first (reply 34):
I assume very little. The B767 features electric assist at door 1L and the L1011 features electric assist at all doors except the auxiliary service doors, 3L and 3R.

I know several flight attendants and M/X staff who have said they have never seen an L1011 door go MX.



That's totially irrelevant seeing how the L1011 and 767 doors were built into the design. Think about what it would cost and what it would take to do that to a frame that has many hours and wasn't originally designed to have such a door. I think once you realize that you will find that the price + effort isn't worth what you get in return. You might say "well it'll save a life" well human awareness will save a life. The time it would take you to train a crew member to use a new door is how long it would take to get them to look down before they step out a door. It's not the door you need to fix it's the crew. The sooner they realize that the guy in driving the stares isn't responcable for their actions the sooner stuff like this won't happen.

I'm not saying that the f/a is at fault. The industry and standards have made it so that the crew is dependent on the ground crew but that this sometimes isn't fully understood by the ground crew. I know through personal experiences that if you expect someone to have your back you'll get burned eventually. Mistakes happen but we are all able to watch our own actions.

Again, I'm still sticking with the fact that if you were to design a new door to open with a motor on existing a/c that it would prove to cost way too much.

Thanks,

matt
"It wasn't raining when Noah built the ark."
 
AsstChiefMark
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RE: AF Cabin Crew Fatality - RIP

Mon Feb 21, 2005 10:17 am

"Air France cancelled half its flights out of Paris' Orly West air terminal due to a strike in protest over a worker being suspended after a flight attendant fell to her accidental death from the top of a mobile stairway." *

Why go on strike for that? It sounds like the right thing for an employer to do. It's part of the risk management plan in most companies: If someone gets injured or killed due to the actions of an employee, that employee will be relieved of duty until an inquiry is completed. At that time, the employee will: A) Return to duty; B) Receive re-education; C) Be subject to disciplinary action; or D) Be terminated.

Maybe the laws are different in France. Kill someone and simply say, "c'est la vie."  Innocent

Mark



* From http://www.turkishpress.com/business...s.asp?id=050219222145.akeeq9dt.xml
Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Damned MSP...Red tail...Red tail
 
PVG
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RE: AF Cabin Crew Fatality - RIP

Mon Feb 21, 2005 11:17 am

Noted UA777222. I meant that the electronic doors should be incorporated into the initial design. I understand that a retro-fit is costly, difficult, and potentially troublesome from an mx standpoint.

Anyway, let's hope that something is learned from this so that her unfortunate death may save another's life.
 
777wt
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RE: AF Cabin Crew Fatality - RIP

Mon Feb 21, 2005 3:07 pm

Quoting Wdleiser (reply 20):


It was AA's A300

View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Allan Rossmore

 
brons2
Posts: 2462
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RE: AF Cabin Crew Fatality - RIP

Mon Feb 21, 2005 3:27 pm

Here's the full rundown on the AA A300 FA pressurization fatality accident, point your browser to this link at the NTSB website:



[Edited 2005-02-21 07:30:27]
Firings, if well done, are good for employee morale.
 
brons2
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RE: AF Cabin Crew Fatality - RIP

Mon Feb 21, 2005 3:31 pm

Here's the full rundown on the AA A300 FA pressurization fatality accident, point your browser to this link at the NTSB website:

http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief2.asp?...212X22314&ntsbno=MIA01FA029&akey=1

(ok fine a.net, don't let me edit my previous post and add a freaking web link!! stupid board software!!)
Firings, if well done, are good for employee morale.
 
flick70
Posts: 68
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RE: AF Cabin Crew Fatality - RIP

Mon Feb 21, 2005 5:51 pm

While I have incredible sympathy for the family of the FA, there is some serious room for inquiry.

I normally watch where I am walking/standing at all times....it is a natural thing. I am doubly observant when I am 1+ stories above the ground.

If it was a situation where the cabin depressurized...I don't see how it is a groundcrew's fault. If the stairs were pulled away with the FA on the stairs, one would think that the FA would have "chose a side" knowing what lay below.

This almost would be worthy of the Darwin Awards.

http://www.darwinawards.com/darwin/

Again, I am not making light of the death of a person. My condolences to the family of the FA. I just do not like the "witchhunt" attitude towards the ground crew.
/// Braniff - We Get You There In Flying Colors /// (until Putnam got ahold of us)
 
copter808
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RE: AF Cabin Crew Fatality - RIP

Tue Feb 22, 2005 3:40 am

OK, here's a thought for the AF employees...

Instead of going on strike and losing pay, as well as alienating the passengers, why not continue to work and donate the pay they received during the proposed strike times? It would work out the same for the employees and give a good sum of cash to the family. It would also generate some "good" press for the employees!
 
Sammyhostie
Topic Author
Posts: 467
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RE: AF Cabin Crew Fatality - RIP

Tue Feb 22, 2005 5:01 pm

Its a good idea, but I dont think it will happen!

They should name an aircraft after her perhaps.
 
User avatar
TS-IOR
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RE: AF Cabin Crew Fatality - RIP

Wed Feb 23, 2005 12:33 am

A similar accident happened for a Tunisair F/A in 2001. That was in Djerba (DJE/DTTJ) and the aircraft involved was an AB6. The F/A fell down after the sudden opening of door 1L which had a pressurization problem.

The sad event of February 1st at Orly is behind the current strike made by AF ground personnel. Air France says that the ground operator is totally responsible for that accident and that's why he has been fired whereas AF unions criticize the cost-saving policy of AF making such an operation made by a single operator whereas it needs 2 operators in general.
 
atct
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Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2001 6:42 am

Reply

Wed Feb 23, 2005 4:31 am

As an old Ramp rat, I opened closed doors frequently, I never found them "hard" or dangerous. I mean they arent light or all, but with a good yank them come around easily (I worked D328's, CRJ's, 732;s, 738's, Md-88's, and 757s, Delta @ PIT). Idk. But my condolonces to the family.

ATCT
Trikes are for kids!
 
Sammyhostie
Topic Author
Posts: 467
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RE: AF Cabin Crew Fatality - RIP

Wed Feb 23, 2005 7:56 pm

I know the actual action of closing the door isnt actually that hard in theory, but for us girlies it is harder to pull the door in, hence why we balance on the steps and a/c, which unfortunately causes a lot of tragic accidents such as this one.