QANTAS077
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Qantas And The A380 Delays.

Mon Feb 21, 2005 6:58 am

seems there is some way to go with the A380.

A380 delays Qantas dogfight

By IAN HUGHES

February 21, 2005

STRESS fractures uncovered during testing of the new Airbus A380 mega-plane may delay an upping of the ante in the battle between Qantas and Singapore Airlines for market share.

According to reports from Germany's Der Spiegel magazine, Airbus engineers have failed to iron out problems encountered in stress tests.

There were "unexpected and significant difficulties" with the rear end of the plane when tests were carried out on it, the magazine quoted an insider as saying.

The landing gear is also causing engineers concern, the magazine reported, adding that the A380's first flight in March could be delayed by weeks.

full article at this link below.

http://dailytelegraph.news.com.au/st...jsp?sectionid=1265&storyid=2695105
 
QANTAS077
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RE: Qantas And The A380 Delays.

Mon Feb 21, 2005 7:04 am

sorry, but anything weighing as much as a full A380 hitting the ground at 150kts is going to have trouble, imagine if the Japanese carriers got this on the D market and loaded it with 800 people and there luggage, the stress on landing would almost be to much to bare.
 
ozglobal
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RE: Qantas And The A380 Delays.

Mon Feb 21, 2005 7:11 am

If you want to discuss the testing issues, there's already an active thread, so this is a duplicate.

On the topic of the impact on QF and SQ competition and the transpacific route:

i) About time QF got some more competition on this route

ii) What's this got to do with the A380 and any potential delivery delays?

Ozglobal
When all's said and done, there'll be more said than done.
 
wukka
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RE: Qantas And The A380 Delays.

Mon Feb 21, 2005 7:23 am

Quoting Qantas077 (reply 1):
sorry, but anything weighing as much as a full A380 hitting the ground at 150kts is going to have trouble,


That's not a real winning statement. 150kts isn't an excessive airspeed by any means during a touchdown... unless you're talking about a straight vertical descent without lift at 150kts?

I'm confused by this comment.
We can agree to disagree.
 
Carpethead
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RE: Qantas And The A380 Delays.

Mon Feb 21, 2005 7:28 am

Qantas077, keep dreaming. There will never be a A380 operating domestic routes.
 
art
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RE: Qantas And The A380 Delays.

Mon Feb 21, 2005 7:30 am

Other thread entitled A380 testing problems has been deleted (I think).

Referring to the report in Suddeutsche Zeitung, last sentence is:

"Airbus hatte das größte Passagierflugzeug der Welt Anfang Januar vorgestellt und wiederholt betont, die Arbeiten lägen im Plan."

My German is not perfect, but my translation of this is:

"Airbus unveiled the world's largest passenger aircraft at the beginning of January and forcefully repeats that work is going to plan."

Any German speakers correct me please if I expressed "lägen im Plan" incorrectly.
 
QANTAS077
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RE: Qantas And The A380 Delays.

Mon Feb 21, 2005 7:30 am

Carpethead

it was a hypothetical, i know that the Japanse carriers will never operate it, they're to involved with boeing, i said "imagine if" if you can't see the hypothetical in that then that's your problem.

[Edited 2005-02-20 23:33:47]
 
ZRH
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RE: Qantas And The A380 Delays.

Mon Feb 21, 2005 7:45 am

Art, your translation is correct.
 
Leskova
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RE: Qantas And The A380 Delays.

Mon Feb 21, 2005 7:48 am

Art, you were quite close - "wiederholt betont" is more along the lines of "repeatedly stated" and not "forcefully repeats" - but the rest of your translation is good.

Regards,
Frank
Smile - it confuses people!
 
bill142
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RE: Qantas And The A380 Delays.

Mon Feb 21, 2005 7:50 am

Isn't the whole point of testing to discover these sorts of problems? I would also think that the media has, as they tend to do, probably blown it out of proportion to some extent.
 
QANTAS077
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RE: Qantas And The A380 Delays.

Mon Feb 21, 2005 7:56 am

Bill
i think the point is, the plane has never flown and this is already a major issue for Airbus and it's engineers, it needs to be sorted yesterday.
 
ZRH
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RE: Qantas And The A380 Delays.

Mon Feb 21, 2005 8:01 am

Quoting Leskova (reply 8):
Art, you were quite close - "wiederholt betont" is more along the lines of "repeatedly stated" and not "forcefully repeats" - but the rest of your translation is good.


Of course you are right Frank, I just thought it won't matter in this context  Smile/happy/getting dizzy
 
Leskova
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RE: Qantas And The A380 Delays.

Mon Feb 21, 2005 8:12 am

Quoting ZRH (reply 11):
Of course you are right Frank, I just thought it won't matter in this context


Actually, you're right - it doesn't really matter in this context... I just hadn't seen your reply when I wrote mine, which I wouldn't have posted had I seen yours...  Big grin

Qantas077, I think the real issue here is: is it really an issue for Airbus, or is it just an issue for the press? In other words - does the problem really exist? Or was it just a slow news day/week?
Smile - it confuses people!
 
QANTAS077
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RE: Qantas And The A380 Delays.

Mon Feb 21, 2005 8:52 am

well the fact that Airbus sighted this as a reason for the pushing back of the test flight and that it has Airbus, engineers and a customer like Qantas worried says it all.
 
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glideslope
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RE: Qantas And The A380 Delays.

Mon Feb 21, 2005 9:48 am

Actually, I'm surprised any thread on this topic is not deleted from this site.

Let's hope this is not the beginning of a trend  Sad Were not talking about major advances in engineering on this airframe. There are no composites in the rear fuselage or gear.

IMO, I think this is going to become a larger story. There is more to the "crash diet" the airframe went on last year than meets the eye, IMO.
To know your Enemy, you must become your Enemy.” Sun Tzu
 
QANTASforever
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RE: Qantas And The A380 Delays.

Mon Feb 21, 2005 11:13 am

Wouldn't Qantas have some sort of insurance agreement - that would state that if the delivery of the A380 to Qantas was significantly delayed that QF would be eligible for compensation due to having to alter it's aircraft operations timetable?

QFF
Fighting for the glory of the Australian Republic.
 
gigneil
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RE: Qantas And The A380 Delays.

Mon Feb 21, 2005 11:28 am


IMO, I think this is going to become a larger story. There is more to the "crash diet" the airframe went on last year than meets the eye, IMO.


We have ABSOLUTELY no idea what the issue is.

N
 
N79969
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RE: Qantas And The A380 Delays.

Mon Feb 21, 2005 11:46 am

I am also a bit confused by the reporter's reasoning in tying A380 testing issues together with competition issues between Singapore and Qantas. The tie is pretty thin.
 
Lockheed1011
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RE: Qantas And The A380 Delays.

Mon Feb 21, 2005 12:25 pm

"Other thread entitled A380 testing problems has been deleted (I think)."

Art,
You are 100% right. It was deleted!  Sad

Freedom of speech does not apply when we talk about Airbus.
Deleted, banished, erased, finite................
 
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Crosswind
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RE: Qantas And The A380 Delays.

Mon Feb 21, 2005 12:35 pm

The original topic on A380 testing problems has not been deleted. It's been moved to Tech/Ops. Still there if you want to read it or post a reply...

Now what were you saying about freedom of speech  Yawn

Regards
CROSSWIND
 
tockeyhockey
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RE: Qantas And The A380 Delays.

Tue Feb 22, 2005 12:18 am

maybe i'm being too positive, but a good engineer wants to encounter some problems during testing. all that these problems indicat to me is that the design is pusing the efficiency envelope -- it is maybe a tiny bit too light or a tiny bit too heavy, too well reinforced, or not reinforced enough.

testing irons out kinks like this.
 
leelaw
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RE: Qantas And The A380 Delays.

Tue Feb 22, 2005 12:26 am

Today's comment from Airbus on the "problems:"

http://news.airwise.com/story/view/1108980578.html
Lex Ancilla Justitiae
 
milan320
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RE: Qantas And The A380 Delays.

Tue Feb 22, 2005 12:58 am

Quoting Leelaw (reply 22):
Today's comment from Airbus on the "problems:"

http://news.airwise.com/story/view/1....html



Well there you have it, take what Der Spiegel said and what Airbus said and average the two, and perhaps there is a problem but not as significant as Der Spiegel made it out to be. A bit simplistic perhaps, I realize, but any project of this size will have sensationalism and spin-doctoring.

/Milan320
I accept bribes ... :-)
 
B707Stu
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RE: Qantas And The A380 Delays.

Tue Feb 22, 2005 1:32 am

Here's what strikes me as a bit odd in the statement:
"The preliminary findings indicate we are moving in the right direction," said spokesman David Voskuhl on Monday. "No serious problems have been encountered."

An acknowledgment of "non serious problems." Obviously Airbus has mortgaged the farm on this aircraft and is in the middle of a very intense marketing campaign, let alone the chronic Boeing battle. Any "serious problem" with the aircraft would more than likely jeopardize those carriers on the fence about placing an order. I'd like to hear a rebuttal from Der Spiegel before coming to any conclusions.

No doubt the proof will be in the test flight and its ultimate date. Any impact on deliveries will soon be known. Airbus could be in a precarious position. Do we disclose something that really concerns us and alienate potential sales or do we not and if it does turn out major really hurt ourselves?

My gut tells me where there's smoke there's fire. The question is, is it a smoldering low grade fire requiring some unexpected attention or are we talking inferno?
 
airbus3801
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RE: Qantas And The A380 Delays.

Tue Feb 22, 2005 1:50 am

Quoting Carpethead (reply 4):
Qantas077, keep dreaming. There will never be a A380 operating domestic routes.


I wouldn't be every so sure about that Qantas077. I am sure many of us thought that when the 747 came out.....
 
gigneil
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RE: Qantas And The A380 Delays.

Tue Feb 22, 2005 2:06 am

"We are not aware of the problems that the Spiegel is claiming," Voskuhl said.



I think that pretty clearly states the position. There's not a major problem.

Of course there are minor problems, its a brand new million pound airliner. If there weren't problems, I'd be scared.

N
 
teamregal
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RE: Qantas And The A380 Delays.

Tue Feb 22, 2005 4:23 am

I'd have to agree with Gigneil...For an aircraft of that immense size and weight, I'm sure "problems" would occur and that's pretty much true for any brand new plane at that. I'm more of a Boeing fan myself but I bet when the 787 drops, we'll all be talking about a few more "problems".
You would dare to challenge me? .........Insanity!
 
cedarjet
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RE: Qantas And The A380 Delays.

Tue Feb 22, 2005 4:40 am

All new designs have problems - remember when that 777 had an explosive decompression during a test flight? A huge duct under the cabin blew loose and the results weren't pretty. And an A330 actually crashed during a test, with the loss of one of Airbus' most senior test pilots (and the rest of the crew). But no-one on here would claim the 777 or A330 are anything other than technical marvels, and neither, after being in service for quite a while now, has ever been involved in an accident of any kind, despite CI flying the A330 and KE flying both types.
fly Saha Air 707s daily from Tehran's downtown Mehrabad to Mashhad, Kish Island and Ahwaz
 
1MillionFlyer
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RE: Qantas And The A380 Delays.

Tue Feb 22, 2005 4:53 am

the CRJ700 test aircraft went into a non-recoverable flat spin and killed 2 people near Tulsa during that airplane's certifcation.

If you look at the 707 and 727 luanches sveral aircraft of each type crashed upon introduction yet they went on to be successful and safe. The 707 had issues with thrust reverses deploying partially and 3 727-100's crashed in 1963-4 on approach to landing for "unknown reasons"
Golf Foxtrot you are cleared for departure
 
art
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RE: Qantas And The A380 Delays.

Tue Feb 22, 2005 4:58 am

Not strictly on topic, Cedarjet, but this sounds... um, like you are inferring something about the carriers concerned:

(Referring to 777 and A330) "...neither, after being in service for quite a while now, has ever been involved in an accident of any kind, despite CI flying the A330 and KE flying both types."

Was that unintentional?
 
brons2
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RE: Qantas And The A380 Delays.

Tue Feb 22, 2005 5:03 am

Quote:
And an A330 actually crashed during a test, with the loss of one of Airbus' most senior test pilots (and the rest of the crew).


To clarify, that unfortunate accident was not the fault of the airframe.

http://www.aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=19940630-0
Firings, if well done, are good for employee morale.
 
cedarjet
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RE: Qantas And The A380 Delays.

Tue Feb 22, 2005 5:05 am

1MillionFlyer, those 727-100 landing accidents weren't "unknown reasons", the pilots flew the planes into the ground by allowing massive rates of descent to build up unchecked.

Art, I was having a bit of a larf (although lots of innocent airline passengers getting themselves killed isn't, I agree, very funny) - Koreanair have crashed four 747s, a few MD80s, a few A300s, at least one MD11 etc etc. China Air Lines have crashed three 747s, two A300s in identical conditions, an MD11 etc etc. If anyone was going to prang a 777 or an A330, it would be one of these two. Luckily, their habit of regularly flying perfectly serviceable planes (well, two of the CI 747s were not so serviceable) into the ground seems to have ended, and never included these two designs.
fly Saha Air 707s daily from Tehran's downtown Mehrabad to Mashhad, Kish Island and Ahwaz
 
AEROFAN
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RE: Qantas And The A380 Delays.

Tue Feb 22, 2005 5:05 am

you know, some wise man once said there are 3 sides to every story. I think I'm going to wait for the truth- while keeping DS story and AB spin in mind
 
sonic67
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RE: Qantas And The A380 Delays.

Tue Feb 22, 2005 5:36 am

Quoting B707Stu (reply 23):
My gut tells me where there's smoke there's fire. The question is, is it a smoldering low grade fire requiring some unexpected attention or are we talking inferno?



Of course their will be problems and delays on new AC epically one as big as the 380. Also the media may be making this into a larger problem than it really is. Also Der Spiegel it notorious for being anti business (left wing).

If the test flights get pushed a couple of Weeks because of unforeseen problems Airbus might be able to make up the time in other ways and still deliver the 380 on time.
 
CM767
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RE: Qantas And The A380 Delays.

Tue Feb 22, 2005 6:39 am

Quoting Cedarjet (reply 27):
All new designs have problems - remember when that 777 had an explosive decompression during a test flight?


Are you sure on that?, I do not recall any decompression in flight for the 777, There was one decompression on the ground on the first pressurized test, well before the first flight. Noting major just a seal that gave away on one door, but no damage to the plane and no injuries.
But The Best Thing God Has Created Is A New Day
 
cedarjet
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RE: Qantas And The A380 Delays.

Tue Feb 22, 2005 6:41 am

CM, there was a major decompression event in flight on a 777 during the test phase. Others may know more but it was something to do with a duct, it did a lot of damage and there were some minor injuries. Aircraft landed safely, problem was diagnosed and fixed.
fly Saha Air 707s daily from Tehran's downtown Mehrabad to Mashhad, Kish Island and Ahwaz
 
ozglobal
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RE: Qantas And The A380 Delays.

Tue Feb 22, 2005 6:44 am

If feel like I'm not in on the joke... Can anyone explain what this has to do with transpacific competition between SQ and QF?
When all's said and done, there'll be more said than done.
 
QANTAS077
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RE: Qantas And The A380 Delays.

Tue Feb 22, 2005 8:56 am

OzGlobal,
the longer it takes the 380 to get into the air the longer it's going to be before we see the QF vs SQ battle for premium pax and premium routes, i think thats what the article is getting at.

but it's also highlighting the concerns some seem to have about the stress on the frame.

anyways, while the A380 sits on the ground longer and longer the 772LR will be going through its paces.
 
ozglobal
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RE: Qantas And The A380 Delays.

Tue Feb 22, 2005 9:08 am

Quoting Qantas077 (reply 37):
the longer it takes the 380 to get into the air the longer it's going to be before we see the QF vs SQ battle for premium pax and premium routes, i think thats what the article is getting at.


I'm sorry, but why? Both airlines fly 744's with similar premium F and J products. The battle could start tomorrow. If it were a question of 744 of SQ vs. 744ER's of QF, SQ could buy or lease some. Don't see why this battle is contingent on the A380's time to market.
Seems more like a journalist grasping at a tenuous link between the only two aviation storys he's aware of.
When all's said and done, there'll be more said than done.