juventus
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British Airways No Longer Europe's Top Dog.

Tue Feb 22, 2005 11:02 pm

British Airways no longer Europe's top dog: A year ago, British Airways was Europe's biggest carrier. But then there was the Air France-KLM tie-up last May, which pushed British Air down to No. 2. And now, Germany's Lufthansa has overtaken BA as the continent's second-biggest airline, by passenger volume. source(USAToday)

Interesting.
 
BCal Dc10
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RE: British Airways No Longer Europe's Top Dog.

Tue Feb 22, 2005 11:10 pm

Big don't necessarily mean best, or "top dog" as you put it.
I think BA's (correct) strategy is to go for quality and profits for its shareholders, rather than size.

I'm sure if its only goal in life was to be the biggest, it would adopt an aggressive takeover strategy, and throw money it doesn't have at loss making routes and buy millions of planes.

Ask what you'd rather fly on - BA, AF or LH? I know which I'd choose, every time.
 
cornish
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RE: British Airways No Longer Europe's Top Dog.

Tue Feb 22, 2005 11:14 pm

Well in terms of passengers carried, BA lost the title to LH and AF a couple of years ago. I'm assuming they must have now been overtaken in RPKs. As someone who used to do the traffic stats for IATA, I can tell you that in terms of passenger numbers this has not just happened last year.

Bcal DC10 is right though, BA don't care about being the biggest any more - they could persue a strategy to do that if they wanted, but as a private company, profitability is far more important.
Just when I thought I could see light at the end of the tunnel, it was some B*****d with a torch bringing me more work
 
monkeyboi
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RE: British Airways No Longer Europe's Top Dog.

Tue Feb 22, 2005 11:15 pm

BA's passenger numbers have been diluted so much now as so many parts of the BA operation has been turned into '100% BA owned subsidiaries' or 'franchises'. These subsidiaries figures (such as BA citi-express bases at MAN/BHX) are not included in BA passenger number figures. I think things are changing and consolidating so quick in european aviation that the 'top dog' will change as often as you change your socks!  Smile/happy/getting dizzy) It is looking like Lufthansa will take over SWISS soon and i'm sure BA and Iberia aren't too far away from a merger either. Then you have Alitalia looking to join the KLM-Air France family; Olympic on the look out for a buyer.....
 
babybus
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RE: British Airways No Longer Europe's Top Dog.

Tue Feb 22, 2005 11:16 pm

Quoting BCal DC10 (reply 1):


Quoting BCal DC10 (reply 1):
I think BA's (correct) strategy is to go for quality and profits for its shareholders


What about it's passengers mate. Forget the shareholders. Given the option of travelling with Air France or BA at the moment. I know which one I'd chose and I don't even speak French.

Au revoir mon ami.
and with that..cabin crew, seats for landing please.
 
Pe@rson
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RE: British Airways No Longer Europe's Top Dog.

Tue Feb 22, 2005 11:32 pm

All businesses exist to make a profit, except, of course, not-for-profit organisations. Accordingly, I think that it is important to consider it in that context rather than in size. However, it could also be important to consider many other factors leading up to profitability, for instance efficiency, treatment of stakeholders, market share, and so forth.
"Everyone writing for the Telegraph knows that the way to grab eyeballs is with Ryanair and/or sex."
 
bogota
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RE: British Airways No Longer Europe's Top Dog.

Tue Feb 22, 2005 11:34 pm

What about the market share, in today´s world you either grow or you get smaller and at the end the profits follow that same path. I think BA is getting increasingly too dependent on the US market, and no company should ever be so dependent on any one market regardless of which one it is. (I wonder how BA is sorting out this year with sales in very low USD and salaries in very high GBP). BA used to be the airline you flew where ever you needed to do business, sadly (as I am a big BA fan) it just isn´t that way anymore. Service standards are getting much better in AF and LH so the differential there is very little now and unfortunately BA does not offer any more as good connections and to as many countries as the competition does.
 
monkeyboi
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RE: British Airways No Longer Europe's Top Dog.

Tue Feb 22, 2005 11:37 pm

BA is much more restricted in terms of capacity than AF or LH because their main base is LHR. There is simply no more room to expand. If BA wishes to start up another route, to say the far east, after all the wrangling with bi-lateral agreements and deciding whether BA or VS or BD will fly the route BA then has to use one of its existing slots.
 
monkeyboi
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RE: British Airways No Longer Europe's Top Dog.

Tue Feb 22, 2005 11:40 pm

....and as for service standards.....

I can't comment on AF, but I just had a look at one of LH's 'new business class' beds. What a joke, looks more like a machine of torture. Flat indeed, but at such an angle it looks awful!
 
juventus
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RE: British Airways No Longer Europe's Top Dog.

Tue Feb 22, 2005 11:45 pm

Well, I'm sure Mr. Richard Branson will be happy with these news. It seems like he is always waiting for a chance to poke BA in the eye.
 
BCal Dc10
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RE: British Airways No Longer Europe's Top Dog.

Tue Feb 22, 2005 11:46 pm

I agree re. capacity. I'd like to see BA using more regional hubs than relying too much on LHR, which is proving to be a right pain in the arse, and I can't see T5 making it any easier. So many people have to schlep down to London to go anywhere outside Europe who would much rather go from their local airport.

Flying anywhere in the world these days from the UK regions, its just as easy to fly AF to CDG and fly on, or LH to FRA and fly on (or KLM as I did last month, to MNL via AMS) than it is at LHR with BA.
I've not tried AF or LH in economy (only in J), so can't comment on their service - is it better than BA now?
 
Pe@rson
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RE: British Airways No Longer Europe's Top Dog.

Tue Feb 22, 2005 11:47 pm

Quoting Juventus (reply 9):
It seems like he is always waiting for a chance to poke BA in the eye.


And rightly so: VS competes against BA and must take advantage of the presented opportunities and must, indeed, create opportunities itself. BA should do it to its competitors, too.
"Everyone writing for the Telegraph knows that the way to grab eyeballs is with Ryanair and/or sex."
 
a380900
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RE: British Airways No Longer Europe's Top Dog.

Tue Feb 22, 2005 11:48 pm

Way to go Old Europe!
 
cornish
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RE: British Airways No Longer Europe's Top Dog.

Tue Feb 22, 2005 11:49 pm

BA in economy is still better than AF and LH. Move to business class and the gap gets wider....
Just when I thought I could see light at the end of the tunnel, it was some B*****d with a torch bringing me more work
 
bongo
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RE: British Airways No Longer Europe's Top Dog.

Tue Feb 22, 2005 11:49 pm

Quoting BCal DC10 (reply 1):
Ask what you'd rather fly on - BA, AF or LH? I know which I'd choose, every time.


AF by far of course.  Big grin

Seriously, I was about to ask what is happening in BA, they are dropping many destinations, like BOG an CCS... I know they have to have profits, but that flight was always full...don't You think so?
MDE: First airport in the Americas visited by the A380!
 
monkeyboi
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RE: British Airways No Longer Europe's Top Dog.

Tue Feb 22, 2005 11:54 pm

I don't think BA is concerned too much with VS's 30-odd aircraft operation from LHR to its handfull of routes. Indeed bmi is still the second biggest UK carrier. BA/VS/BD all face the same problem with expansion at LHR - ie capacity. BA and VS have such distinct products and ways to do things that both seem to retain their loyal following.

BA seems more concerned with the likes of EK/QR/GF and now Etihad. These carriers are very agressive in terms of pricing and advertising in the UK and also have excellent on-board services. Especially EK. It has taken so much business from BA on routes to India, SE asia and Australia via its Gulf hub and continues to expand at an astonishing rate.

I think in the future BA and VS will become closer in business. I think they will adopt a policy of 'friendly competition' (if it exists??!!) in order to protect each other from the state subsidized US carriers and agressive middle eastern carriers.
 
cornish
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RE: British Airways No Longer Europe's Top Dog.

Tue Feb 22, 2005 11:55 pm

Well the Lat Am destinations are now IB territory - for BA its better to feed through MAD and use valuable slots for other destinations.
Just when I thought I could see light at the end of the tunnel, it was some B*****d with a torch bringing me more work
 
monkeyboi
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RE: British Airways No Longer Europe's Top Dog.

Tue Feb 22, 2005 11:58 pm

Bongo, as has been written in numerous other posts here, BOG and CCS while having good loads, were losing money. BA took numerous steps in order to try and make the route profitable including moving the flight from LHR to LGW, re-timing it and eventually moving it from a B777 to a B767. But the end result continued to be the same.....it lost money and did not feed enough passengers onto other more lucrative BA flights. The large majority were OD VFR traffic (origin-destination visiting friends & relative passengers) and Club/First passengers were very few and far between.
 
Speedbird2155
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RE: British Airways No Longer Europe's Top Dog.

Wed Feb 23, 2005 12:02 am

Bongo, a full flight doesn't mean that you are making money from it. BA is a business and if a route isn't profitable, then there is no reason to operate it, just to say that you fly to X destination. That's not good business sense.

BA might not be the largest in terms of size, but we must be doing something right and better than AF and LH based on the large number of transfer passengers we get from both Germany and France and the rest of the EU on a daily basis.

Despite what is said on this forum, the reality is there are still many persons out there who value BA and the service we provide.
 
Speedbird2155
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RE: British Airways No Longer Europe's Top Dog.

Wed Feb 23, 2005 12:11 am

Monkeyboi

you are right about BA and VS woring closely together. They already in fact do this and help each other out when needed...as with the 3x week BA127 which is only operating so as to secure those slots VS. Once VS is able to use these slots, then the BA127 will stop.
 
cornish
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RE: British Airways No Longer Europe's Top Dog.

Wed Feb 23, 2005 12:11 am

BA do provide a good service - and they are a business. Their Lat am network has always been weak, so it makes sense to give IB the passengers for routes that are their strength. That's what a successful alliance is all about. BA can then concentrate on routes that do make financial sense.

Size in the airline industry is not everything - you only have to look at some of the US majors right now to realise that it doesn't necessarily equate to financial strength.
Just when I thought I could see light at the end of the tunnel, it was some B*****d with a torch bringing me more work
 
pilot kaz
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RE: British Airways No Longer Europe's Top Dog.

Wed Feb 23, 2005 12:21 am

Indeed bmi is still the second biggest UK carrier.

I heard Easyjet was the UK's second biggest?
-
 
BCAL
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RE: British Airways No Longer Europe's Top Dog.

Wed Feb 23, 2005 12:46 am

BA has a very difficult task. It is a public limited company and therefore answers to its shareholders, who wish to see profits and capital growth. To achieve these it must deliver a quality product - i.e. a quality service that appeals to many passengers whether they fly economy, premier economy, club or first class.

BA is under attack from all directions: It competes with other UK airlines on both long haul routes (VS and now bmi) and bmi plus the LCCs on its European/Domestic network. It competes against the subsidised US airlines across the Big Pond. It competes against the likes of Dubai Inc and their bottomless purses, and the Asian carriers on its Asian and Australian network.

BA does not have the umbrella protection of the British Government. If rights to fly new routes from LHR become available, it has to compete with VS and bmi. Imagine Air France having to compete with Corsair or AOM if new routes come up at CDG, or Lufthansa competing with Air Berlin or LTU if new routes come up at FRA. To make the competition tougher, AF and KLM merged and soon we might see LH merging with another major European airline.

I cannot understand why so many people, British people in particular, wish to knock BA. For me I am proud that it is my national airline and it will always be my first choice airline. It might no longer be the largest (or "Top Dog") in Europe, but it delivers a consistently high standard.
MOL on SRB's latest attack at BA: "It's like a little Chihuahua barking at a dying Labrador. Nobody cares."
 
bogota
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RE: British Airways No Longer Europe's Top Dog.

Wed Feb 23, 2005 12:57 am

Monkeyboi, I am ( or was as I am not able to fly BA anymore out of BOG) a Gold member on my beloved BA. And the story about the route here is very different to what you have said. The flight was moved to LGW together with all other Latinamerican routes as a company strategy and was the last one to move back to LHR as it was the only one that was able to make some money out of LGW. The flight though was never re-timed (well maybe half an hour) and then went to the 767 which almost even lost me as a customer on such a terrible aircraft. There were two unfortunate events in CCS than cost BA a lot of money, one the mudslides and the other was the general strikes. So in general having most of the pax ex-BOG and not having a direct stop was the real reason. The last manager and who I knew personally said that the costs involved in stopping in CCS including that of having two sets of crew for so many days to operate this flight were very high, and that the unions would not agree to just a fuel stop in BGI on the way back to LHR to be able and make a direct BOG (as you must be aware the almost 8500 ft that BOG sits at, require special performance or low weight for take off). For many non London bound pax the stop in CCS was simply a no go, as the other carriers that operate to BOG do it non stop. It is very sad for me indeed, as I will still be going to London constantly and I have now switched to AF, who immediately BA retired from BOG, stepped up to daily flight direct from BOG. I have special feeling towards BA after so many flights with them, and now seeing the AF adds that say "looking at the UK from a different point of view, we now fly daily to Bogota" is very sad. Good luck BA and hope to see you around here again at some time.
 
Arsenal@LHR
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RE: British Airways No Longer Europe's Top Dog.

Wed Feb 23, 2005 12:58 am

Quality not quantity. As far as service goes, BA IS a top dog airline, not just in the UK/Europe, but the world. As far as size goes, AF/KLM are two airlines merged together, one expects it to be bigger than BA. BA faces competition and financial challenges like no other airline in Europe.

UK Domestic/European competition with BMI
International competition with VS (from the UK-LHR)
Int'l competition from Europe, LH, AF, KLM etc to North America
LCC's, Easyjet, Ryanair etc.
Government-protected US airlines/Chapter 11 safety net
Competition to other parts of the world, particularly, Asia/ME against other flag carriers.
High costs - new security measures paid for by BA itself, fuel rises, insurance cost rises..etc
Operating from a slot-contrained airport like LHR with limited opportunity to grow at a rate of it's competitors like Lufthansa or Air France.
In Arsene we trust!!
 
rtfm
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RE: British Airways No Longer Europe's Top Dog.

Wed Feb 23, 2005 3:54 am

Bongo: as for 'dropping many destinations', you only list CCS & BOG - how about listing the ones they are starting - PVG (Jun '05), BLR (Oct '05), VNO, SPU, SKG (all S '05), HME (May '05).... BA will fly where it can be most profitable. End of story.
 
Btblue
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RE: British Airways No Longer Europe's Top Dog.

Wed Feb 23, 2005 4:19 am

BA....

I keep hearing this rumour of BA merging with Iberia, is this really going to happen?

Heathrow is limited in terms of slots - why have BA not considered a hub in Manchester to cater to those that live in the north? Are they really so short sighted that they cannot see that a base (long haul ops) in the north could work?

I have flown AF 4 times in the last 5 months and they do have a good product.
146/2/3 737/2/3/4/5/7/8/9 A320 1/2/18/19/21 DC9/40/50 DC10/30 A300/6 A330/2/3 A340/3/6 A380 757/2/3 747/4 767/3/4 787 77
 
Gofly
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RE: British Airways No Longer Europe's Top Dog.

Wed Feb 23, 2005 4:29 am

Quoting Pilot kaz (reply 21):
Indeed bmi is still the second biggest UK carrier.

I heard Easyjet was the UK's second biggest?


Depends how you define '' big ''. I think what was meant to be said was bmi is the UK's second biggest full service carrier

Regards
Living the high life on my ex-Airliners.net Moderator pension...
 
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PM
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RE: British Airways No Longer Europe's Top Dog.

Wed Feb 23, 2005 4:29 am

Quoting Monkeyboi (reply 15):
the state subsidized US carriers


Er, explain, please.
 
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Richard28
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RE: British Airways No Longer Europe's Top Dog.

Wed Feb 23, 2005 6:11 am

PM, there were lots of discussions on this a month or so ago, where BA and VS were unhappy that they were competing against reduced ticket prices on north american routes from US carriers in chapter 11, to sure up their short term cash positions.

In the UK, there are no chapter 11 protections, if you go broke, then you are essentially out of business.
 
scotron11
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RE: British Airways No Longer Europe's Top Dog.

Wed Feb 23, 2005 6:43 am

BA are a world-class airline and have been for a very long time. Their presence in SA was largely the result of their purchase of BCAL. If the drop their SA operations, so what? It was never their expertise.

And yes, BA are no longer Europe's Top Dog. They are one of the world's Top Dog!
 
airgeek12
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RE: British Airways No Longer Europe's Top Dog.

Wed Feb 23, 2005 7:03 am

Yea, I saw that one coming. Lufthansa is a great airline, or at least from what I hear about them. They serve ALOT of destinations worldwide, and have an amazing fleet of awesome aircraft! I think the thing that would really boost their
'ratings', if you will, is their IFE isn't that great; well at least in economy. If they had a better IFE system with TVs in every seatback.. i'd be a hit!  Big grin
 
VS11
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RE: British Airways No Longer Europe's Top Dog.

Wed Feb 23, 2005 7:31 am

LH is reaping and will continue to do so the benfits of their strategy to open up an hub in Munich, which was a very smart move. They do not have a bottleneck such as LHR to deal with. Also, as we all know BA had some reorganization to do to become more lean and more profitable, which eventually they will do but they had to become more "focused". Of course, there is no VS in Germany to win traffic from LH as VS does with BA especially now with the new Upper Class Suite. So no wonder that LH's pax volume is up.

VS11
 
bogota
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RE: British Airways No Longer Europe's Top Dog.

Wed Feb 23, 2005 7:42 am

Come on, ease off, you BA guys are taking it too dearly. It is just a constructive criticism, I hope BA policies pay off, but for the time being it looks from this angle as BA is loosing its pole position. And for SA not being part of BA´s expertise, well that is partly right but because they never really have looked into it, but in the case of BOG and CCS, 45 and 46 years of non stop service in between BOAC, BCAL and BA you can hardly call them the new boy on the block.
 
PyroGX41487
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RE: British Airways No Longer Europe's Top Dog.

Wed Feb 23, 2005 8:51 am

BA IS a top dog airline, not just in the UK/Europe, but the world.

That's a little bit arrogant of you to say, and I really don't think your example of BA vs. BMI has much of anything going on it. Like it or not, BA has a much bigger fleet than BMI, and even old VS could shoot it out of the sky if it wanted to -- meaning BA is bigger than BMI. But BA is NOT the top dog airline -- it's hardly even arguable. They just ditched their Concordes because they couldn't forge a deal with Airbus and pay the bills. Arguably, I'd say the title of top dog goes to SQ or even EK -- they're looking into the future and making gambles on new a/c type. As for BA, they seem scared to even buy an A340, much less the A380, 787 or 777NG models. Top dog airlines make gambles, not whimper when the temperature of the water changes.

As for BA, it's a pretty nice airline, but I just don't see the quality people are talking about. Airlines need attitude, not just service. That's why I like VS, B6, SQ and AI to name a few.

Attitude, good service, and a kind staff.

Now that's a REAL airline.
 
United Airline
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RE: British Airways No Longer Europe's Top Dog.

Wed Feb 23, 2005 8:55 am

What about in terms of RPMs and RPKs? I suppose British Airways is still bigger than Lufthansa right?????

And I suppose BA is Europe's largest single airline.

Wonder if they will become no 1 again as a whole........ size I mean
 
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Dalavia
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RE: British Airways No Longer Europe's Top Dog.

Wed Feb 23, 2005 9:03 am

Quoting PyroGX41487 (reply 34):
Attitude, good service, and a kind staff.

Now that's a REAL airline.


I agree. If BA's ground staff have treated many of its passengers in the rude, dismissive and arrogant manner that they have treated me on my last few flights, then I am not surprised they are losing their market leadership in Europe.

As a result of my last experience with BA, I tried SQ for the first time in a decade, despite on top level status tier with OneWorld. I had not realised what I had been missing for all those years. I think SQ has gained a new satisfied customer.

Is it fair, though, to compare BA to an Asian airline? Perhaps we should just expect European standards to be lower???
 
Arsenal@LHR
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RE: British Airways No Longer Europe's Top Dog.

Wed Feb 23, 2005 9:21 am

That's a little bit arrogant of you to say, and I really don't think your example of BA vs. BMI has much of anything going on it. Like it or not, BA has a much bigger fleet than BMI, and even old VS could shoot it out of the sky if it wanted to -- meaning BA is bigger than BMI. But BA is NOT the top dog airline -- it's hardly even arguable. They just ditched their Concordes because they couldn't forge a deal with Airbus and pay the bills. Arguably, I'd say the title of top dog goes to SQ or even EK -- they're looking into the future and making gambles on new a/c type. As for BA, they seem scared to even buy an A340, much less the A380, 787 or 777NG models. Top dog airlines make gambles, not whimper when the temperature of the water changes.

What is so arrogant about it? I speak from personal experience on flying BA short and long haul. BA do not have a global reputation for professionalism and quality by accident, it was built up over the years throught consistent service in all classes. I'm not the type of person who is loyal to any particular airline, i always fly the cheapest option, but if you gave me the option of BA and airline 'X' on any particular route, i'd most likely choose BA. And just what does ditching the Concorde fleet have anything to do with being a first class airline?
In Arsene we trust!!
 
Shamrock_747
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RE: British Airways No Longer Europe's Top Dog.

Wed Feb 23, 2005 9:34 am

British Airways is a profit making organisation which must answer to its shareholders. Debt and costs must continue to be reduced whilst the network is reviewed and expanded at a sensible rate. Whether or not people are calling BA "top dog" is irrelevant to the company's future.

So BA should fly Concorde at a loss whilst paying double charges to Airbus? Order A380s despite a 100+ longhaul fleet with an average age of just 8 years? Go against current policy and become a 787 launch customer?

I don't think so.

The airline has no oil money, government subsidies or chapter 11 protection. Gambling is simply not an option.
 
PyroGX41487
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RE: British Airways No Longer Europe's Top Dog.

Wed Feb 23, 2005 9:45 am

Claiming that BA is the top airline in the world when facts clearly point otherwise. Sure, it's a matter of opinion but it sounded somewhat arrogant the way it was said. I've got my personal experiances with BA too -- I lost a bag each time, and one time I had to be rebooked.

Read my statement again. "Because they couldn't pay the bills". Top dog airlines can pay the bills.
 
Qantasclub
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RE: British Airways No Longer Europe's Top Dog.

Wed Feb 23, 2005 3:41 pm

BA is still simply the best 'mega-airline' in Europe. On all my BA sectors, I must say that the staff have been consistently friendly and professional, they certainly offer a superior product in all respects compared with any other European carrier except for perhaps SWISS and VS, and definitely without doubt WAY ahead of LH, AF or KLM.

They are still my European carrier of choice but if VS had a more extensive network or was part of Oneworld, I'd fly them.

Qantasclub
Long Haul is the only way to go
 
rtfm
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RE: British Airways No Longer Europe's Top Dog.

Wed Feb 23, 2005 4:06 pm

PyroGX41487: Then by your own argument BA is a 'top dog' airline - it pays it's bills. Because it focuses on generating profit in order to do so and that includes paying off the debt it has from its fleet renewal program that it started in the mid 90's. Yes it took a commercial decision based on cost/benefit of operating the Concorde; but so did AF (who, if you read back to the first post in this thread are being touted as one one of the new 'top dogs' in Europe) so I fail to see what your point is there. And don't forget that it was the withdrawl of support from Airbus that was one of the factors in that decision. And could you please enlighten us as to where BA could serve with an A340 that they currently can't with their existing long-haul fleet of 774s, 772/772ERs and 763s? Because they're scared?? Please, if you've had a bad experience flying BA then you are justified in expressing an opinion on their service but please don't post such errant nonsense as part of your argument. And if BA does order 787s in the next few years (which is a possibility as a long-term replacement for some of the 772s and the 763s, will that make them top-dog again?)
 
Speedbird2155
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RE: British Airways No Longer Europe's Top Dog.

Wed Feb 23, 2005 5:11 pm

As for BA, it's a pretty nice airline, but I just don't see the quality people are talking about.

Talk to any of BA's loyal customers and they will point you to the quality service and experience that BA provides. I had the opportunity to have a lengthy discussion with one such person within the past week and he was quite clear in why he still flies BA. He admitted that BA does have issues, but when things go wrong he knows he can trust BA to handle it in a professional manner and not run from the problem.

The quality is in BA's customers knowing they can trust and rely on us in the good and bad times. The quality is in looking after our passengers. It's not about buying different aircraft just because others are doing so or because it's the latest thing on the market.

Top dog airlines make gambles, not whimper when the temperature of the water changes.

Which airline made the move to flatbeds and is still one of the few with fully flatbeds in business?? Yes, you can be critical of BA flatbeds, but BA led the way and many followed, but the lie-flat seats still don't compare to a fully flat bed. Who was the one making the gamble then??

I agree. If BA's ground staff have treated many of its passengers in the rude, dismissive and arrogant manner that they have treated me on my last few flights

BA ground staff try their best to assist all passengers, I can say that from experience. Most of us will go out of our way to help passengers, I see and do such every day. It's when passengers think that they have a right to be rude and arrogant to staff that they will get little done.

"Because they couldn't pay the bills".

which bills would those be that BA couldn't pay?? You should do some research into the REAL reason the Concorde stopped flying. Had Airbus been willing to continue it's support of the Concorde, I somehow don't think BA would have stopped flying it for years to come. After the AF accident, BA continued to fly Concorde until they were forced to stop and even after the announcement by Airbus that it was no longer feasible for them to continue supporting Concorde operations and AF quickly stopped their service, BA continued for a little while longer. This aircraft has a cherished place within BA and many of us throughout the company would love to see it still operating, but it wasn't practical. It had nothing to do with BA not paying bills.
 
speedbirdegjj
Posts: 402
Joined: Tue Nov 25, 2003 7:01 pm

RE: British Airways No Longer Europe's Top Dog.

Wed Feb 23, 2005 6:34 pm

@ Pyro,

you have given me a good laugh to start the day with, Surely the decision to break with the norm, within any business, should be to improve the situation within that organisation above and beyond what it is achieving at the present.

So... Can you tell me firstly where British Airways would utilise an A380, bearing in mind our current, and sucessful, strategy of chasing high yield passenger by providing a serivce that delivers?, with the exception of JFK and maybe the Kangaroo routes we have no routes where the demand or yield would require an aircraft of the A380's size, and a fleet of 5 or 6 airbus in an all boeing Long haul fleet doesn't make economic sense. FACT, not wimpishness not BA falling from its prominent position in the industry, just plain economic sense in the current market conditions.

And the A340, not wanting to turn this into A v B, but BA as with every other carrier has a CHOICE. BA chose the 777, a comparative product albeit froma rival manufacturer, and has become one of the largest operators of the type. So why would we 'seem scared' to order the A340??, it make 'sense' not to order the 340 as it simply doesnt fit into our Long haul Boeing fleet, end of chat.

And Concorde.......... this has been done to death on here and else where, and anyone with an aviation interest has surely read enough fact and fiction on the matter to have formed their own sensible opinion on the matter.

BA may no longer be the biggest in Europe or wherever but passenger numbers aren't everthing, in these times, for a legacy carrier yield is king, and the constant issue for carriers like ourselves is delivering a service that matches.

rgrds
Ryan
 
hardiwv
Posts: 4341
Joined: Sat Oct 09, 2004 11:30 pm

RE: British Airways No Longer Europe's Top Dog.

Wed Feb 23, 2005 6:40 pm

Here is the list of TOP airlines in Europe (pax number/year 2004).

BA comes only in third, far behind LH, and AF-KL:

1. AF/KL 64mil (44+20mil)
2. LH 48mil
3. BA 35mil
4. IB 25mil
5. AZ 22mil
6. SK 20mil
7. TK 11mil
8. LX 9mil
9. OS 7mil
10. TP, BD 6mil
12. AY, JK, OA 5mil
15. VS 4mil
 
AIR MALTA
Posts: 1733
Joined: Mon Sep 17, 2001 6:45 am

RE: British Airways No Longer Europe's Top Dog.

Wed Feb 23, 2005 6:43 pm

I have to say that BA's product is far better than AF or LH in Economy. The last 3 months I have flown the 3 airlines intercontinental and nobody matches BA. But getting my company to book BA from Austria is very hard. AF and LH are very natural choices because of the fares and the frequency. I had to battle to get booked on BA from VIE to DXB via LHR : I have said that BA is the most flexible way to quit DXB as it has many flights a day from there. But still the connections to Vienna were poor. I don't think I can always book BA with my company. They don't even think about it as BA is regarded as a expensive airline and London is so far away from Vienna.

Also when I was in Tunisia working for the same company, we had to go abroad to work : Berlin, Munich and Vienna. The natural choices were AF and LH again. It is so sad to see that BA is neglecting some markets were there is a lot of potential. My same company sent somr workers to South Africa from Tunis, and they all fly Lufthansa although the standard in their Economy 744 is very poor.
Next flights : BRU-ZRH-CAI (LX)/ BRU-FCO-TLV (AZ)
 
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sebolino
Posts: 3495
Joined: Tue May 29, 2001 11:26 pm

RE: British Airways No Longer Europe's Top Dog.

Wed Feb 23, 2005 6:45 pm

I think BA's (correct) strategy is to go for quality and profits for its shareholders

It happens that profits for the shareholders is often in contradiction with profits in the long run, and is sometimes a very short sighted strategy.
 
cornish
Posts: 7651
Joined: Fri Feb 18, 2005 8:05 pm

RE: British Airways No Longer Europe's Top Dog.

Wed Feb 23, 2005 7:39 pm

Hardiwv - should have mentioned that those are the top full service carriers in Europe. Both FR and U2 carried over 20 million passengers last year so should come around sixth. AB should be up there too on about 12 mill(?)

BA are not neglecting markets with potential - quite the opposite. That's why they've been chasong rights to China and India to make better use of those precious LHR slots.

As for all this talk of BA staff being rude - they've clearly not flown LH have they ?
Just when I thought I could see light at the end of the tunnel, it was some B*****d with a torch bringing me more work
 
United Airline
Posts: 8769
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2001 5:24 pm

RE: British Airways No Longer Europe's Top Dog.

Wed Feb 23, 2005 8:33 pm

What about RPMs and RPKs? Is BA still leading?
 
Pe@rson
Posts: 16003
Joined: Sat Jan 13, 2001 6:29 pm

RE: British Airways No Longer Europe's Top Dog.

Wed Feb 23, 2005 8:39 pm

"Both FR and U2 carried over 20 million passengers last year so should come around sixth."

FR carried about 27 million, actually.
"Everyone writing for the Telegraph knows that the way to grab eyeballs is with Ryanair and/or sex."

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