ricardofg
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YYZ & Lack Of Airlines

Wed Feb 23, 2005 7:26 am

Why are there so few international airlines serving YYZ anymore? In the 90's almost every major airline served YYZ and now so few? Where did they go? Will any come back? Are anymore leaving?

Rgds
 
ricardofg
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RE: YYZ & Lack Of Airlines

Wed Feb 23, 2005 7:33 am

Iberia, Royal Jordanian, Aerolineas Argentinas, TAP, Vasp, Viasa, Varig, Air Ukraine, ATA, PAL, Balkan, Air India, Swiss, Virgin Atlantic, etc...why did they all go?
 
MAH4546
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RE: YYZ & Lack Of Airlines

Wed Feb 23, 2005 7:53 am

That's odd. There sure doesn't seem to be a lack of posts about international airlines at YYZ.  Nuts

As for the answer, it is most likely that in the 1990s, the airline industry changed dramaticlly, and airlines all over streamlined their international networks. Also, many airlines just simply dissapeared, such as VASP and Viasa.
a.
 
PilotJmartin
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RE: YYZ & Lack Of Airlines

Wed Feb 23, 2005 8:12 am

I think most of that is due to codeshare? Like the AC/BMI deal and others. Codeshare works well and I think that is why you see few diffrent airlines at YYZ
 
aseem
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RE: YYZ & Lack Of Airlines

Wed Feb 23, 2005 8:34 am

AI is coming back after more than a decade long break.
rgds
Aseem
ala re ala, VT-ALA ala
 
KLMA330
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RE: YYZ & Lack Of Airlines

Wed Feb 23, 2005 9:03 am

I remember flying AI from LHR to YYZ back in '96.. there's an experience I won't soon forget!
 
ACYWG
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RE: YYZ & Lack Of Airlines

Wed Feb 23, 2005 9:06 am

Could it possibly be that YYZ landing fees are Exorbitant?!?!?

But the downturn in the aviation industry is also partly to blame I'm sure.
 
bartond
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RE: YYZ & Lack Of Airlines

Wed Feb 23, 2005 9:07 am

Yeah, maybe a better question about YYZ would be why so many airlines have left. For a city of just a few million people, I'd say Toronto does VERY well with the number of airlines that serve the airport.
 
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yyz717
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RE: YYZ & Lack Of Airlines

Wed Feb 23, 2005 10:15 am

Iberia, Royal Jordanian, Aerolineas Argentinas, TAP, Vasp, Viasa, Varig, Air Ukraine, ATA, PAL, Balkan, Air India, Swiss, Virgin Atlantic, etc...why did they all go?

I don't recall Balkan ever flying to YYZ, even on a charter basis. ATA never flew to YYZ "directly" -- it was only in YYZ as a scheduled subcharter.

YYZ is still blessed with far more competition now than ever and fares are lower than ever. So, in general, good riddance to these largely govt-owned behemoths.  Smile
I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
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yyz717
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RE: YYZ & Lack Of Airlines

Wed Feb 23, 2005 10:26 am

I think most of that is due to codeshare? Like the AC/BMI deal and others.


The BMI YYZ-MAN route has reverted back to STAR Alliance partner AC, unfortunately for YYZ spotters. The 3rd BMI 332 that ran this route last summer (while AC had a 767 shortage) will now be used on new MAN-BGI/LAS and planned LHR-BOM services.

I remember flying AI from LHR to YYZ back in '96.. there's an experience I won't soon forget!


In what way? On-time performance?
I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
airbusfanyyz
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RE: YYZ & Lack Of Airlines

Wed Feb 23, 2005 12:05 pm

Quoting Bartond (reply 7):
For a city of just a few million people,


The Greater Toronto Area is home to approx. 5.5 million residents. YYZ is the the fourth or fifth largest international gateway in North America behind JFK, LAX, and ORD.

International airlines that currently serve Pearson with their own aircraft are;

SU
VV
AF
JM
BA
PK
LH
OS
AZ
BW
CX
CU
OK
KL
KE
LY
LO
MA
MX
OA
S4
MP (summer)
VZ (summer)
LT (summer)
AY (summer)
TC (summer)
AI (starts May 05)

Cheers,
Kaz
 
skysurfer
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RE: YYZ & Lack Of Airlines

Wed Feb 23, 2005 12:09 pm

I'll agree 100% with what ACYWG said about the landing fees at YYZ, they're horrendous. If memory serves me correct it's one of the priciest airports to land at. I believe the GTAA are thinking of raising the landing fees yet again which will make airline execs squirm and shake their pockets for yet more money. You'd think that in the wake of the downturn of aviation that YYZ would be lowering landing fees etc but nope, they're going in the opposite direction and increasing them year on year. That's probably why we're seeing more regional jets being used by US based airlines...why pay more for heavier jets to land and use the airport when you can send in rj's and get it cheaper, even though they send in more! If you can see past all the AC aircraft then there is a good mix of airlines, but compared to LAX, LHR, FRA, CDG etc then it is somewhat lacking.....my only complaint is that i never get to stay late enough to catch the KLM, LH flights etc. My biggest gripe about YYz is the lack of a dedicated place to spot from now that the old T1 has gone. I only got hassled by the police once while i was there and as soon as i produced a letter from yyznews.com that the airport had sent them (saying it was ok to spot etc) the cop left me alone and skulked off.
C'mon yyz, build a dedicated spot then you won't have to run around the perimeter moving people on and wasting time and police resources. If only they'd take a look at places like MAN and BHX with great facilities!!!!!

Cheers
In the dark you can't see ugly, but you can feel fat
 
ACYWG
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RE: YYZ & Lack Of Airlines

Wed Feb 23, 2005 1:14 pm

Well, the biggest reason that YYZ has such high Landing fees is because of the bloated 3 billion dollar price tag for the new terminal.

On the spotting side of things, FedEx hill is still a top spot! Though it would be nice if they would have an observation deck of some sort. The parking decks at the old T1 were good, but now theres now area indoors with a good veiw of the field.
 
EnviroTO
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RE: YYZ & Lack Of Airlines

Wed Feb 23, 2005 2:35 pm

Iberia, Royal Jordanian, Aerolineas Argentinas, TAP, Vasp, Viasa, Varig, Air Ukraine, ATA, PAL, Balkan, Air India, Swiss, Virgin Atlantic, etc...why did they all go?

I wonder myself about Iberia and TAP since Air Canada doesn't serve that part of Europe directly. Part of the reason some of those airlines don't serve Toronto is the strength of Air Canada since gaining Canadian Airlines route network.

Air Ukraine is now Aerosvit as far as I know and it does serve Toronto. ATA has only served Toronto on a charter basis as far as I know and now is merging with Southwest which doesn't serve Canada so no big surprise there. PAL only goes to the west coast now so nothing against Toronto there. I can't remember Balkan as a regular scheduled service... perhaps it was charter or didn't last long. Air India is coming back in 2005 after loosing market post Air India bombing. Swiss flys into Montreal but doesn't continue on to Toronto because that is where the bigger O&D is for Swiss traffic. Virgin is expected to come back in 2005 or 2006 after only serving Toronto a month or two before SARS... no recent updates on that.

As AirbusfanYYZ points out there are still a large number of international carriers in Toronto, last list shows more than any other Canadian city. In addition Air Canada is serving more destinations with direct service than ever before. I think Toronto is in good shape and with Sept 11 and SARS behind us I would expect more international destinations and international carriers to come. Ethihad, Ethiopian, JAT, and Turkish have shown signs that they are interested in flying into Toronto sometime in the next couple of years.
 
thomasphoto60
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RE: YYZ & Lack Of Airlines

Wed Feb 23, 2005 2:42 pm

Consider yourself fortunate. We in Houston would kill for a 10th of what you guys have and we have roughly the same population base.

Thomas
"Show me the Braniffs"
 
EnviroTO
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RE: YYZ & Lack Of Airlines

Wed Feb 23, 2005 3:15 pm

Bartond,

Toronto is the 8th largest metropolitain area in North America and has a population of which greater than 50% are foreign born and therefore are likely to have foreign friends and relatives to visit and a high demand for international flights. Only Miami has a higher foreign born population but its foreign born population is more Latin American while Toronto is more mixed leading to greater demand to more places.

To give an idea of the ethnic make-up of the city, take a look at the translations done by municipal services:

http://www.toronto.ca/ttc/multilingual/multilang.htm
 
yulguy
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RE: YYZ & Lack Of Airlines

Thu Feb 24, 2005 5:30 am

Actually, according to the UN World Urbanization Prospects, www.un.org, the metropolitan region of Toronto is the 5th largest conurbation in North America, not the 8th. In order:

Mexico City: 18.9 million
New York: 17.1 million
Los Angeles: 13.8 million
Chicago: 7.2 million
Toronto: 5.5 million
Philadelphia: 4.6 million
San Francisco: 4.3 million
Washington: 4.2 million
Dallas: 4.2 million
Houston: 3.6 million
"Celui qui diffère de moi, loin de me léser, m'enrichit." - Saint-Exupéry
 
yulguy
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RE: YYZ & Lack Of Airlines

Thu Feb 24, 2005 5:38 am

Sorry Detroiters, the population of your city is 3.9 million as of 2005. So you're between Dallas and Houston.
"Celui qui diffère de moi, loin de me léser, m'enrichit." - Saint-Exupéry
 
airbazar
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RE: YYZ & Lack Of Airlines

Thu Feb 24, 2005 6:07 am

Part of the reason some of those airlines don't serve Toronto is the strength of Air Canada since gaining Canadian Airlines route network.

That and the protection from the government. Remember the stink they made when SQ was flying to YYZ? You can count SQ as another airline that dropped YYZ.
 
yulguy
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RE: YYZ & Lack Of Airlines

Thu Feb 24, 2005 6:08 am

OK, another error. Here is the actual list. I compiled the stats on Excel and here are the top populations in North American urban agglomerations:

Population in thousands:
18934 Mexico
17147 New York
13766 Los Angeles
7181 Chicago
5157 Toronto
4571 Philadelphia
4253 San Francisco
4163 Dallas
4151 Washington
3927 Detroit
3889 Guadalajara
3566 Montreal
3556 Houston
3502 Monterrey
3197 San Diego
3039 Boston
2804 Phoenix
2674 Atlanta
2494 Minneapolis
2339 Miami
2247 Vancouver

So, I don't think that Toronto is over-served by international carriers given the fact that it's the 5th largest city in North American and the largest in Canada.
"Celui qui diffère de moi, loin de me léser, m'enrichit." - Saint-Exupéry
 
lnglive1011yyz
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RE: YYZ & Lack Of Airlines

Thu Feb 24, 2005 6:39 am

Another problem is that people who may be 'spotting' and making the assumption that certain airlines are not flying into YYZ (without doing any fact-finding) are disastrously wrong.

I know there are times when I'm driving by YYZ to find a new airline I've never seen before just about to land, or taking off..

Toronto is a big city. If you add in the area's around it (Durham/Peel/Halton/Dufferin, not to mention London/Sarnia Guelph and the southern parts as well) it is quite a large populated area.

We often take for granted how large our city is, given the fact that we are in the top 5 metropolitan areas in North America!

1011yyz
Pack your bags, we're going on a sympathy trip!
 
yow
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RE: YYZ & Lack Of Airlines

Thu Feb 24, 2005 1:23 pm

Toronto has been declared (by I think the U.N.) as the most ethnically diverse city in the world. No wonder it has such a strong international route network. Also add to the fact that in many instances it is the gateway to Canada.
 
bartond
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RE: YYZ & Lack Of Airlines

Thu Feb 24, 2005 2:56 pm

Okay okay, I get the picture about Toronto. It's a great big city, no doubt, and YOW is right in that it's pretty much the gateway to Canada (I'm sure the Montreal-ers will love hearing that). Lots of factors to consider but I guess I'm saying that plenty of carriers fly into Toronto so be thankful for the ones you've got.

Now that we're splitting hairs, you ought to update those population figures for metro areas - Atlanta has over 5.5 million, DFW has over 5.6 million, Houston is close to that, too. Boston's metro area is bigger than 3 million, as well. FYI. Toronto's figures may be a bit low, too, but I'd never understood its metro area to be over 5 million. Wow.
 
EurostarVA
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RE: YYZ & Lack Of Airlines

Thu Feb 24, 2005 3:22 pm

Remember that in the 80s and to some extent the 90s, airlines cared more about prestige than economics. An example is Royal Jordanian, which rarely made money on the Canada runs year round, only during the high season when their Tristars would fully loaded (remember being a passenger many times). They discontinued both Montreal and Toronto because the traffic was low-yield and the low season was bad. I believe IBERIA quit for the same reason.
If there is a will, there is a way
 
texdravid
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RE: YYZ & Lack Of Airlines

Thu Feb 24, 2005 3:40 pm

The true goal of any international airport is to have service to as many different countries, either nonstop, or direct.

That definition is quite true at YYZ, where you can get to almost any major European, Asian, and South American city you desire.

Major exceptions at YYZ include Qantas, SQ and others.

If the question is one of lack of foreign metal, well...in this day of code-sharing and alliances, then you may have a point.
Tort reform now. Throw lawyers in jail later.
 
ktachiya
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RE: YYZ & Lack Of Airlines

Thu Feb 24, 2005 4:38 pm

Texdravid

"Have service to many different countries, either nonstop, or direct." Wow, are you a poet. Just jk

YYZ is indeed becoming convinient for SA routes and EU routes. The ICN route to Asia will be a new advancement but they only serve NRT, BOM? DEL?, HKG, and ICN for the time-being.

With the large diverse population, they can serve many more places such as TPE, PVG, PEK, SYD, BNE can't they?


I think looking at population figures to a certain extent will be nice, but look at global cities which one of the definitions is: transportation center of the world.

Primary global cities: New York, London, and Tokyo
Secondary global cities: Brussels, Frankfurt, Los Angeles, Paris, Singapore, Zurich
Tertiary global cities: Amsterdam, Madrid, Mexico City, Seoul, Sydney, Houston, Miami, San Fransisco, Toronto, Vancouver

Now why is SQ out of the game?
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hardiwv
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RE: YYZ & Lack Of Airlines

Thu Feb 24, 2005 5:37 pm

Quoting Yyz717 (reply 9):
I think most of that is due to codeshare?


That's also the case of VARIG which has a full codeshare with AC.

Quoting SkySurfer (reply 11):
I'll agree 100% with what ACYWG said about the landing fees at YYZ, they're horrendous


Interesting point, it has been mentioned many times that YYZ is a very expensive airport.

How many pax does YYZ handle per year?

Quoting Ktachiya (reply 25):
Primary global cities: New York, London, and Tokyo
Secondary global cities: Brussels, Frankfurt, Los Angeles, Paris, Singapore, Zurich
Tertiary global cities: Amsterdam, Madrid, Mexico City, Seoul, Sydney, Houston, Miami, San Fransisco, Toronto, Vancouver


The above list is just absurd. For example, you dont even mention the biggest airport in South America: GRU, which in fact is better served than YYZ.

You are crazy to place airports such as FRA and CDG as " secondary hubs" at the same level as ZRH adn BRU.

BRU? Are you joking?

Your list is complete non sense and lacks any understanding of major global airports.

Rgs,


[Edited 2005-02-24 09:39:02]
 
Olympus69
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RE: YYZ & Lack Of Airlines

Fri Feb 25, 2005 4:19 am

Quoting Yyz717 (reply 8):
I don't recall Balkan ever flying to YYZ, even on a charter basis.


Neil,

There is one Balkan photo at YYZ in the database, taken in 1993. I don't recall the circumstances - scheduled service or charter.

View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © John Kelley

 
ktachiya
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RE: YYZ & Lack Of Airlines

Fri Feb 25, 2005 5:24 am

Hardi

Excuse me. When studying about Urban Geography, we have to list the most important city in the world. Your reply got me confused for a moment but this is a fact agreed upon by a majority of urban geographers and TNC/MNC (Transnational Corporations). They have a presence in those cities making it one of the vital sources for setting it up as a hub. I know this is not neccesarily true most of the time but quoted by an urban geography

"David Harvey" not Hardi.......... But he quoted it and this is my major field.

"Your list is complete non sense and lacks any understanding of global airports"

So are you trying to pick a fight against all urban geographers?

You should see the criteria for a GC which some are:

1) Cities that control the global economy
2) Cities that excersise power outside of its national boundaries
3) Cities that have large financial districts
4) Cities that are transportation hubs/trade centers
5) Cities that have an insurmountable presence of global law firms

NOW, I had to write a midterm on this two days ago. But if you dearly would like to pick a fight with urban geographers, I know that there are a lot of them even in the Netherlands who KNOW what a global city is.

So don't treat me like a dumb bastard who knows nothing. This is my major field.
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nwafflyer
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RE: YYZ & Lack Of Airlines

Fri Feb 25, 2005 10:36 am

US customs out of Toronto? Lack of decent facilities at non-Air Canada gates out of Toronto?
 
EnviroTO
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RE: YYZ & Lack Of Airlines

Fri Feb 25, 2005 5:47 pm

Nwafflyer,

Not sure if your cryptic post is a question or not.

US customs out of Toronto?

There is US customs in Toronto.

Lack of decent facilities at non-Air Canada gates out of Toronto?

Terminal 3, where the other non Star-Alliance airlines are located, is fairly new. There isn't a huge food court in the transborder area but there is a Fridays American Bar & Grill which has a decent meal and two quick lunch shops. Most of the shopping and main food court is available before security. There is a bigger selection in the domestic and international areas than in the transborder area. It is virtually the same stuff you get at the other terminals. Obviously the airport authority has only given space to three or four restaurant companies throughout the airport. I'm surprised there is no Harvey's mentioned on the airport website because that is the fast food division of one of the main restaurant companies that has a contract.
 
cornish
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RE: YYZ & Lack Of Airlines

Fri Feb 25, 2005 7:16 pm

Problem from Europe is that Canada has long been a low yield market - with maybe the exception of Paris-Montreal. This is one of the reasons that carriers have dropped out and not so many are starting up services. VFR traffic is not enough for some airlines to make enough money on some routes as the yields aren't there. It is better to work thorugh codeshares and alliances with North american partners to serve there in many cases.

Sadly of the world's developed countries, Canada has for some time now had the lowest or among the lowest growth prospects in global air traffic market forecasts.
Just when I thought I could see light at the end of the tunnel, it was some B*****d with a torch bringing me more work
 
Guest

RE: YYZ & Lack Of Airlines

Sat Feb 26, 2005 3:45 am

"The BMI YYZ-MAN route has reverted back to STAR Alliance partner AC, unfortunately for YYZ spotters. The 3rd BMI 332 that ran this route last summer (while AC had a 767 shortage) will now be used on new MAN-BGI/LAS and planned LHR-BOM services."

I was expecting that sooner or later, AC would resume the YYZ-MAN route.
I am rather sorry to hear this though, as we flew BMI 332 - YYZ-MAN-YYZ last May and found their 'New Economy' class service (36" pitch, complimentary drinks and rather good cuisine) very nice indeed. Good flights and great crews.
 
MAH4546
Posts: 24557
Joined: Wed Jan 24, 2001 1:44 pm

RE: YYZ & Lack Of Airlines

Sat Feb 26, 2005 6:09 am

Quoting Yulguy (reply 19):
OK, another error. Here is the actual list. I compiled the stats on Excel and here are the top populations in North American urban agglomerations:


That list makes US cities quite smaller than they actually are. The Dallas metroplex has 5.6M, the Miami metroplex has 5.1M. Though, yes, I agree, Toronto isn't overserved. They have a great mix of international services.
a.
 
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yyz717
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RE: YYZ & Lack Of Airlines

Sat Feb 26, 2005 6:16 am

Neil,

There is one Balkan photo at YYZ in the database, taken in 1993. I don't recall the circumstances - scheduled service or charter.


Interesting. Thanks John. I wonder if it was a subcharter for someone else? It's hard to believe there is enough demand for a YYZ-Sofia charter series.
I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
FLYACYYZ
Posts: 1820
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RE: YYZ & Lack Of Airlines

Sat Feb 26, 2005 7:58 am

99% certain that Balkan had a very short stay in Toronto in the early 90's. Shortly after pulling out, wasn't there a ressurected Bulgarian airline that served YOW via JFK. Weren't they known as JES Air?
Above and Beyond
 
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yyz717
Posts: 15689
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RE: YYZ & Lack Of Airlines

Sat Feb 26, 2005 1:07 pm

Shortly after pulling out, wasn't there a ressurected Bulgarian airline that served YOW via JFK. Weren't they known as JES Air?

Yes! There was! I remember this! Some clapped-out 707's (OMG!) flew a brief charter series between YOW and Sofia (perhaps via JFK). I remember thinking at time WTF? Who in their right mind would fly between these 2 horrendoues cities in some ancient 707?  Smile
I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
RCS763AV
Posts: 3650
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RE: YYZ & Lack Of Airlines

Sun Feb 27, 2005 12:39 am

Im surprised no one has mentioned Avianca is planning to start service there. It will be a daily flight from BOG to YYZ, 4x a week operated by Air Canada with an A-319 and 3x a week operated by Avianca with a 757. So thats one youve never seen!
 
Aviationman
Posts: 619
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RE: YYZ & Lack Of Airlines

Sun Feb 27, 2005 1:48 am

Hi Neil, Jes Air did not fly B-707's to Ottawa. I am pretty sure it was an A310. You are maybe thinking about this Romanian airline (Jaro Int'l....If I recall correctly) that was flying B-707's between YMX and Romania.

Cheers!

Marcel
 
flyyul
Posts: 4394
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RE: YYZ & Lack Of Airlines

Sun Feb 27, 2005 2:44 am

Avianca is not going to YYZ.

Only on a code-share basis, everything is 100% pure heresay and wishful thinking.
 
yow
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RE: YYZ & Lack Of Airlines

Sun Feb 27, 2005 4:18 am

Jes Air flew A310s routed Ottawa-JFK-Sofia. The route lasted about 18 months. The route actually did quite well, but Jes Air wasn't exactly the best run organization to say the least. They eventually went bankrupt.
 
martinairyyz
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RE: YYZ & Lack Of Airlines

Sun Feb 27, 2005 4:49 am

Quoting Yyz717 (reply 8):
I don't recall Balkan ever flying to YYZ


Balkan flew direct YYZ-SOF for about 5 years actually......... then they went bust.
Chelsea Football Club supporter.
 
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yyz717
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RE: YYZ & Lack Of Airlines

Sun Feb 27, 2005 5:47 am

Hi Neil, Jes Air did not fly B-707's to Ottawa. I am pretty sure it was an A310. You are maybe thinking about this Romanian airline (Jaro Int'l....If I recall correctly) that was flying B-707's between YMX and Romania.L

Ah thanks Marcel! I knew there was a Romanian 707 somewhere!  Smile

Balkan flew direct YYZ-SOF for about 5 years actually......... then they went bust.

5 years? Was it 5 summer charter series? Or year round? Hmmm.....you sure it was 5 years?
I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.

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