avroarrow
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Hopefully Not A Stupid ANA747 Question

Wed Feb 23, 2005 10:15 am

I was cruising another unrelated thread and came across a photo of an ANA 747-400 and after clicking on it I noticed that it didn't have winglets. I thought this was strange and looked at a bunch of other ANA 747-400 and they didn't have winglets either. So yes I'm a moron and I never noticed this before tonight.
My question is in two parts:
A) Is this because it is a high density short haul config aircraft?
B) Does anyone else fly the 747-400 without winglets?


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Photo © Dennis Chang



I do know that the 747-400 can legally fly without the winglets since I remember seeing Qantas (I think) flying with only one winglet attached due to an incident that damaged one a few years back.
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LY744
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RE: Hopefully Not A Stupid ANA747 Question

Wed Feb 23, 2005 10:38 am

Some Japanese customers have what is known as the 747-400D, D for Domestic. These aircraft are optimized for short haul, high density routes. They are the only -400s without winglets.


LY744.
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wdleiser
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RE: Hopefully Not A Stupid ANA747 Question

Wed Feb 23, 2005 12:42 pm

Yes LY744 is completely correct, the winglets on short hauls would be less effecient than without them due to the added weight. Winglets prove effecient over the course of a long haul flight.
 
brightcedars
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RE: Hopefully Not A Stupid ANA747 Question

Wed Feb 23, 2005 5:59 pm

And in the list of other carriers operating the Boeing 747-400D, only JL and NH are customers if I'm not mistaken.
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American 767
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RE: Hopefully Not A Stupid ANA747 Question

Wed Feb 23, 2005 9:04 pm

BrightCedars is right, only JAL and ANA operate this variant of the 747-400. I don't think any other airline will ever order the 400D. You can tell it's a 400D as opposed to a 300 because the older variant has HF antennae attached to the wingtips, the 400 doesn't. If you see a 400D in ANA livery, I mean a 747 with a stretched upper deck and withouth winglets, you know at first glance it's a 400D because ANA never had 300's. If you see a 400D in JAL livery then you have to see if it has HF antennae like I explain, or not, because JAL did have 300's. JAL is the only airline having flown both the 300 and the 400D variants.

Ben Soriano
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NumberTwelve
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RE: Hopefully Not A Stupid ANA747 Question

Wed Feb 23, 2005 9:20 pm

lol@Avro - when I read the topic, everything was clear.
I had same doubts when I saw an ANA 744 D half a year ago - now next question: why cargo 742 with winglets?  Wink/being sarcastic
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trex8
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RE: Hopefully Not A Stupid ANA747 Question

Wed Feb 23, 2005 9:51 pm

all JL 744s are GE powered, all their previous 747s are PW, another way to tell whats what.
 
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American 767
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RE: Hopefully Not A Stupid ANA747 Question

Thu Feb 24, 2005 12:00 am

NumberTwelve, the cargo "742" you are talking about is a 744, not a 742. The 747-400F has it's upper deck shrinked to that of the original lenght to save weight. The freight is loaded only on the lower deck and the upper deck is used only as a galley and rest area for the crew: four pilots and two flight attendants, in other words six people onboard the aircraft at the most. So there is no reason to keep the upper deck stretched.

Ben Soriano
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Carpethead
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RE: Hopefully Not A Stupid ANA747 Question

Thu Feb 24, 2005 9:23 am

The winglets were removed because of the compatibility with existing gate widths. All the domestic stands & gates were designed with 747 classic wingspan in mind. The 744 wingspan would jut into adjacent gate space restricting the aircraft to something like 763 or smaller. At most provincial airports this is not a big problem but at HND, it provides a major scheduling headache for NH & JL. When the 744D was being designed in the late 1980s, Boeing allowed the option of removing the winglets plus the outer section of the wingspan.

AvroArrow,
No need to be embarrassed. Many people haven't been to Japan and I don't mind educating enthusiasts about this no matter how many times it takes.
 
WestWing
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RE: Hopefully Not A Stupid ANA747 Question

Thu Feb 24, 2005 9:42 am

Hey. ANA 747s aren't stupid  Smile/happy/getting dizzy

Quoting American 767 (reply 4):
You can tell it's a 400D as opposed to a 300 because the older variant has HF antennae attached to the wingtips, the 400 doesn't


Excellent point ! You can see what American 767 is saying in these examples (View Large):


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Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © S.L. Tsai
View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Helmut Bierbaum



[Edited 2005-02-24 01:44:55]
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avroarrow
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RE: Hopefully Not A Stupid ANA747 Question

Thu Feb 24, 2005 11:03 am

Thanks to everyone for the info. A380 or not, the 747 has always been my favorite heavy hauler. Sadly I live where they are very rare, but at least I have A.net to ease my pain.  Smile/happy/getting dizzy
Give me a mile of road and I can take you a mile. Give me a mile of runway and I can show you the world.
 
COAMiG29
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RE: Hopefully Not A Stupid ANA747 Question

Thu Feb 24, 2005 12:42 pm

can legally fly without winglets? are there some planes that cant fly without winglets?

this is my stupid question

i know what winglets do but how effective are they?

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LY744
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RE: Hopefully Not A Stupid ANA747 Question

Sun Feb 27, 2005 3:48 am

Great discussion forum we would have if we all already knew everything...


LY744.
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VS74741R
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RE: Hopefully Not A Stupid ANA747 Question

Mon Feb 28, 2005 4:25 am

Also 747-400D aircraft have strengthened landing gear to cope with more landings then usual long haul 747s. Another way to tell JAL 747-300s apart from 747-400Ds is that the 400Ds have the new engines where as the 300s have the older type.
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PositiveClimb
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RE: Hopefully Not A Stupid ANA747 Question

Mon Feb 28, 2005 4:49 am

@COAMiG29

I think AvroArrow did not question whether the 744 can fly without winglets, of course it can, I think he stressed the word legally, as the 744 is certified with the winglets. Therefore I am not sure whether it is allowed to fly without (but seems to be, as AvroArrow stated).

Concerning your question of efficiency, the following link states that a 747-400 suffers about 2.5 % drag losses without winglets attached.
http://aerodyn.org/Drag/tip_devices.html

Can't find the exact figures for a 744, but according to
http://www.b737.org.uk/winglets.htm
the blended winglets on a 737 allow an improve of cruise fuel mileage up to 6 percent.

Hope that helps!  Smile

Regards,
Fabian/PositiveClimb
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BH346
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RE: Hopefully Not A Stupid ANA747 Question

Mon Feb 28, 2005 5:05 am

Another question... on the 744Ds, do they have coach seating on the upper deck? I though I saw a pictures of an ANA 744D with coach seats on the upper deck. Does anyone know if they are reserved for higher fare classes or passengers with higher FF status?
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