FlyPNS1
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DL Rio Service Still Up In The Air

Thu Feb 24, 2005 1:00 am

Yesterday, DL filed with the DOT saying they could not start ATL-GIG service on June 1, 2005. DL says the aircraft has been allocated to ATL-SVO. DL filed for ATL-SVO when the DOT failed to respond about GIG in January.

DL has said they would instead like to start ATL-GIG on October 1, 2005 when additional aircraft will be available. However, DL must receive permission from the DOT for this delay.

United also filed an objection to having 5 frequencies taken from it. United first claims that since DL cannot meet the June 1 start date, they should not receive the frequencies. In addition, United is now claiming they intend to use the frequencies by Fall of 2006 for additional Brazil service.
 
hardiwv
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RE: DL Rio Service Still Up In The Air

Thu Feb 24, 2005 1:04 am

Interesting development.

I dont think DOT will oppose DL starting the service on 1 October 2005.

UA still has about 14 dormant positions to Brazil so it wouln't affect UA plans for expansion in the Brazilian market. What are possible UA routes to Brazil? ORD-GIG nonstop?

Rgs,
 
FlyPNS1
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RE: DL Rio Service Still Up In The Air

Thu Feb 24, 2005 1:12 am

UA was vague about their intentions in Brazil. They mentioned the success of ORD-GRU and IAD-GRU which seemed to imply they might add frequency on these routes.

Even if DL successfully takes UA's frequencies, UA will still have nine left. That's enough to easily start another daily flight if UA desires.
 
MAH4546
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RE: DL Rio Service Still Up In The Air

Thu Feb 24, 2005 1:20 am

Quoting Hardiwv (reply 1):

UA still has about 14 dormant positions to Brazil so it wouln't affect UA plans for expansion in the Brazilian market. What are possible UA routes to Brazil? ORD-GIG nonstop?


Hmmm...fall 2006 is when UA moves into their new international terminal at MIA.

Though it would probably be IAD-GIG, not ORD-GIG.
a.
 
incitatus
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RE: DL Rio Service Still Up In The Air

Thu Feb 24, 2005 1:21 am

Maybe the request for delay will trigger competing claims for the frequencies by Continental or American.
Continental could ask for nonstop GIG service from either IAH or EWR - or both with 3 x week IAH to serve the oil industry and 4 x week service to New York.
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DAL767400ER
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RE: DL Rio Service Still Up In The Air

Thu Feb 24, 2005 1:22 am

I sure hope the DOT doesn't listen to UA's b!tching and let's DL start service in October. After all, that would still be a year earlier than UA's service, and whether that would even start is another story. UA seems pretty much focused on Asia now.
 
SESGDL
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RE: DL Rio Service Still Up In The Air

Thu Feb 24, 2005 1:35 am

What new aircraft will be available in October for DL? They're not receiving new aircraft are they?

Jeremy
 
hardiwv
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RE: DL Rio Service Still Up In The Air

Thu Feb 24, 2005 1:52 am

Quoting SESGDL (reply 6):
What new aircraft will be available in October for DL?


They would realocate aircraft, it seems a destination will have servies terminated or decreased.

Quoting MAH4546 (reply 3):
Though it would probably be IAD-GIG, not ORD-GIG.


Why? ORD would serve better as connection point towards Asia.

Quoting Incitatus (reply 4):
Continental could ask for nonstop GIG service from either IAH or EWR - or both with 3 x week IAH to serve the oil industry and 4 x week service to New York.


Indeed, Rio has a booming oil business and that may interest CO to open flights to IAH-GIG nonstop.

NYC is also not connected to GIG nonstop, and CO could operate EWR-GIG; NYC-GRU already has plenty of flights with RG, AA, CO and even JAL serving thios route nonstop.

I'm surprised NYC does not have a nonstop connection with GIG, and CO could do this job.

Quoting DAL767400ER (reply 5):
I sure hope the DOT doesn't listen to UA's b!tching and let's DL start service in October.


Agree with you!

Rgs,
 
AeroWesty
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RE: DL Rio Service Still Up In The Air

Thu Feb 24, 2005 2:01 am

Why is this such a surprise? The much heralded securing of the Rio route for DL in another thread was simply the publication of the DOT's Order to Show Cause not to rule the way they did. UA was going to lose authorities if it went through. Of course they would file an objection of some kind. They'd be stupid not to. This is the way it's done.
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DAL767400ER
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RE: DL Rio Service Still Up In The Air

Thu Feb 24, 2005 2:01 am

Quoting SESGDL (reply 6):
What new aircraft will be available in October for DL? They're not receiving new aircraft are they?

Jeremy

Delta reduces international flying in the winter, e.g. FCO loses the 2nd ATL flight, ATL-BCN is discontinued, JFK-BCN and JFK-MAD are combined into JFK-BCN-MAD-JFK etc. Overall, during the winter DL needs some 6 or 7 763ERs less. And for summer 2006 season, there is enough time to adjust schedules and free up a domestic-used -ER.
 
PPVRA
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RE: DL Rio Service Still Up In The Air

Thu Feb 24, 2005 3:03 am

I think EWR-GIG or IAH-GIG could work, but what about SFO/LAX-GRU/GIG? LAX is a UA hub (servfed by RG, but they have a monopoly in the route anyways), and they can easily connect pax onwards to all over Asia and Australia.

Cheers,

PPVRA
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
alb222
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RE: DL Rio Service Still Up In The Air

Thu Feb 24, 2005 3:43 am

Quoting SESGDL (reply 6):
What new aircraft will be available in October for DL? They're not receiving new aircraft are they?


DL will be converting some domestic equipped 767's to International configuration in time for the Summer '06 season. This is one of the reasons DL didn't ask for China routes in 2005.
 
MAH4546
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RE: DL Rio Service Still Up In The Air

Thu Feb 24, 2005 6:11 am

Quoting Hardiwv (reply 7):
Why? ORD would serve better as connection point towards Asia.


So what? That would help the something like five people a day who use UA between GIG and Asia? IAD has non-stops to NRT, likely more O&D, and is a better connector to important markets like BOS and JFK.
a.
 
hardiwv
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RE: DL Rio Service Still Up In The Air

Thu Feb 24, 2005 6:32 am

Quoting MAH4546 (reply 12):
IAD has non-stops to NRT


This clarifies my question.

Please note that Brazil-Japan traffic is considerable and not only 5 pax as you pointed out. As a matter of fact, both JAL and RG fly direct from Japan to Brazil, and significant transit pax to Japan are carried by LX, LH, AC, etc.

Quoting PPVRA (reply 10):
I think EWR-GIG or IAH-GIG could work


I agree. EWR-GIG would my option - CO currently operates IAH-GRU-GIG. Surprising enough GIG does not have a nonstop service to NYC, although NYC-GRU is quite well-served by CO, RG, AA, and JAL.

I would expect than during 2005-2006 CO, UA and DL will increase flights to Brazil. Loads have been very high all over 2004.

I dont think the DOT will oppose DL starting flight to GIG in October rather than June.

Rgs,
 
Doona
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RE: DL Rio Service Still Up In The Air

Thu Feb 24, 2005 6:35 am

I call for universal deregulation of the skies everywhere! No more "applying" to government agencies! Freedom for the world's air carriers! Now!

(Doubt that anyone with the power to do so would read this post though... and even if they did, they´d probably laugh and want to lock me up...)
Sure, we're concerned for our lives. Just not as concerned as saving 9 bucks on a roundtrip to Ft. Myers.
 
hardiwv
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RE: DL Rio Service Still Up In The Air

Thu Feb 24, 2005 7:45 am

Quoting Doona (reply 14):
No more "applying" to government agencies! Freedom for the world's air carriers! Now!


Before free skies I call for a complete end in subsidies or any form of government assistance to national carriers. Is this feasible?

Open skies would largely benefit US carriers and some Europen airlines which receive generous Government subsidies. Needless to say, regulation in the aviation market is necessary to create a level playing field.

Rgs,
 
MAH4546
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RE: DL Rio Service Still Up In The Air

Thu Feb 24, 2005 7:52 am

Quoting Hardiwv (reply 13):

Please note that Brazil-Japan traffic is considerable and not only 5 pax as you pointed out. As a matter of fact, both JAL and RG fly direct from Japan to Brazil, and significant transit pax to Japan are carried by LX, LH, AC, etc.


I realize that. Sao Paulo has one of the world's largest Japanese communities, and both Tokyo and Nagoya have two of the world's largest Brazilian communities.

However, that doesn't mean UA would route a GIG flight to ORD just to get a handful of passengers to Asia one-stop. First off, most Japan-Brazil traffic is going to GRU, not GIG. Secondly, with new visa restrictions, passengers are finding it easier to transfer via Europe. The amount of connections that UA would get GIG-Asia via ORD are minimal that it wouldn't make a case for the service being out of ORD.
a.
 
tu154
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RE: DL Rio Service Still Up In The Air

Thu Feb 24, 2005 8:02 am

Quoting DAL767400ER (reply 5):
I sure hope the DOT doesn't listen to UA's b!tching and let's DL start service in October. After all, that would still be a year earlier than UA's service, and whether that would even start is another story. UA seems pretty much focused on Asia now.



It's a very common practice for competing airlines to file objections over another airlines application for new routes. This is not UA "b!tching" as you say....just standard practice. AA is quite famous for filing objections.
FIRST ON THE ATLANTIC.....FIRST ON THE PACIFIC.....FIRST IN LATIN AMERICA...FIRST 'ROUND THE WORLD.....PAN AM!!
 
klkla
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RE: DL Rio Service Still Up In The Air

Thu Feb 24, 2005 8:14 am

Is Delta planned on flying non-stop from ATL to GIG or would this be a continuing flight from GRU? To my knowledge none of the U.S. carriers fly directly to GIG from the U.S. now without a stop at GRU.
 
PDPsol
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RE: DL Rio Service Still Up In The Air

Thu Feb 24, 2005 8:30 am

Quoting Klkla (reply 18):
To my knowledge none of the U.S. carriers fly directly to GIG from the U.S. now without a stop at GRU.


Nope, AA operates a daily MIA-GIG nonstop.

AA used to have daily JFK-GIG nonstop service [which I was a very happy user of], while CO operated EWR-GIG nonstop as well [I actually preferred their BusinessFirst product].

It completely BOGGLES my mind why neither AA, CO or even RG have not re-launched nonstop service to GIG from the NYC area from JFK/EWR. Yes, I have heard the numerous statements, "GIG is a low-yield market", etc., etc.

GIG is an important business and tourist destination for us New Yorkers [and vice-versa] and we want our services back!

Rio de Janeiro is home to the largest, publicly-traded corporation in Latin America, Petrobras, and is the center of Brazil's energy industry, housing regional offices for companies such as BP Plc, Repsol-YPF and Shell. Rio is also home to several important telecommunications and media corporations and houses the offices of several financial institutions.
 
hardiwv
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RE: DL Rio Service Still Up In The Air

Thu Feb 24, 2005 5:55 pm

Quoting MAH4546 (reply 16):
Sao Paulo has one of the world's largest Japanese communities


Small correction: Sao Paulo has the biggest Japanese community in the world.

Quoting MAH4546 (reply 16):
both Tokyo and Nagoya have two of the world's largest Brazilian communities.


In fact, Japan has the second or third biggest community of Brazilians living abroad, many of them have dual nationaly Brazilian-Japanese.

Quoting Klkla (reply 18):
Is Delta planned on flying non-stop from ATL to GIG or would this be a continuing flight from GRU?


No. This would be a nonstop daily flight ATL-GIG.

Quoting Klkla (reply 18):
To my knowledge none of the U.S. carriers fly directly to GIG from the U.S. now without a stop at GRU.


As stated above, AA flies MIA-GIG nonstop 14 x week.

Quoting Pdpsol (reply 19):
Rio de Janeiro is home to the largest, publicly-traded corporation in Latin America, Petrobras, and is the center of Brazil's energy industry, housing regional offices for companies such as BP Plc, Repsol-YPF and Shell. Rio is also home to several important telecommunications and media corporations and houses the offices of several financial institutions.


Add to that the biggest shipping industry in Latin America - mainly related to oil shipping.

Indeed, Rio also became the biggest receptor in Latin America of congress/events/fairs (in fact one of the top in the world), which normally attracts a business-oriented high-yield public.

I hope airliens resume nonstop service GIG-NYC as soon as possible. As I said, GRU, on the contrary, is extremely well served.

Rgs,
 
johnboy
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RE: DL Rio Service Still Up In The Air

Thu Feb 24, 2005 6:12 pm

I'd also be interested to see what others think about a SFO-GRU/GIG flight on United metal (disregarding that pesky Chapter 11 designation  Big grin). LAX would understandably be a bigger market, but Varig does serve that route already (alas, with connecting flights to SFO).

Would be a great China - Brazil connection point, IMHO (it's just that visa situation too...)

Looks like i'm being my own devil's advocate here!
 
B4REAL
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RE: DL Rio Service Still Up In The Air

Thu Feb 24, 2005 11:10 pm

As mentioned above where we may have existing 767s converted to int'l config - here is a speculation that Gigneil and ConcordeBoy and I had discussed once. There are a number (I think 4) 767-300 ER in the domestic cabin configuration for DL. I think they go to Alaska among other places. If those a/c are converted to int'l configuration - we also may see the 767-400 (all of DL's 764s are ER) changed to the int'l cabin configuration. I think this may be a distinct possibility.

B4
B4REAL, spelled like it sounds
 
hardiwv
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RE: DL Rio Service Still Up In The Air

Fri Feb 25, 2005 6:33 am

Quoting Johnboy (reply 21):
I'd also be interested to see what others think about a SFO-GRU/GIG flight on United metal


UA operated SFO-MIA-GRU some time ago, until it closed its MIA hub.

Quoting B4real (reply 22):
Would be a great China - Brazil connection point, IMHO (it's just that visa situation too...)


You said it all! In fact, RG is planning to start flights to China as follows: GIG-GRU-MUC-PEK (RG got 5th freedom rights MUC-PEK, and services could start in Jul/05).

Quoting Johnboy (reply 21):
Varig does serve that route already (alas, with connecting flights to SFO).


RG serves LAX, and you need to connect to SFO with UA. Still, RG only serves LAX 4 x week and the flight is always full. I dont undertand why RG has not upgraded the service to daily. Anyone has information in this respect?

Possibly RG's LAX service is connected with its flights to NRT; I expect LAX to be upgraded once NRT gets more flights later in the year.

Rgs,
 
incitatus
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RE: DL Rio Service Still Up In The Air

Fri Feb 25, 2005 11:07 am

Quoting Johnboy (reply 21):
I'd also be interested to see what others think about a SFO-GRU/GIG flight on United metal


I think:
- The local market, together with BOS, is one of the most promising w/o nonstop service, but not large enough to sustain a flight.
- Domestic connections will be very limited, so it will have to rely on Asia/Hawaii traffic.
- 777 too big, 763 no range.
- UA could slice its 9 dormant frequencies between SFO and LAX and see how it does.
- The other possibility would be Varig put SFO as middle point of a second Brazil Japan flight, e.g., do GRU-LAX-NGO and GRU-SFO-NRT daily. There are no LAX-NGO nonstops currently, right?
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N1120A
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RE: DL Rio Service Still Up In The Air

Fri Feb 25, 2005 11:18 am

Quoting B4real (reply 22):
we also may see the 767-400 (all of DL's 764s are ER)


All 764s are 764ERs.


Quoting Hardiwv (reply 23):
RG serves LAX, and you need to connect to SFO with UA. Still, RG only serves LAX 4 x week and the flight is always full. I dont undertand why RG has not upgraded the service to daily. Anyone has information in this respect?

Possibly RG's LAX service is connected with its flights to NRT; I expect LAX to be upgraded once NRT gets more flights later in the year.


Actually, RG wants to go GIG-GRU-LAX-NGO. The reason they only go 4X right now is because they lost their NGO authority (which was only part time) and LAX-NRT is served by SQ,UA (2x),AA,JL (2x), and NH, all on a daily basis.



Quoting Incitatus (reply 24):
I think:
- The local market, together with BOS, is one of the most promising w/o nonstop service, but not large enough to sustain a flight.
- Domestic connections will be very limited, so it will have to rely on Asia/Hawaii traffic.
- 777 too big, 763 no range.
- UA could slice its 9 dormant frequencies between SFO and LAX and see how it does.
- The other possibility would be Varig put SFO as middle point of a second Brazil Japan flight, e.g., do GRU-LAX-NGO and GRU-SFO-NRT daily. There are no LAX-NGO nonstops currently, right?



The 763 has the plenty of range to do SFO-GRU. Aside from that, considering UA's Asian connections from SFO, plus O&D and possible Canadian and west coast connections, a 772 should not be too hard to fill.

I think, however, that considering how under-served LAX-Brazil is (4x a week, it should be closer to 4x a day) with a large O&D plus the possibility of Asian continuation, UA should be flying daily on their own metal, as well as RG going daily. It would be a STAR monopoly and have lots of profit potential
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incitatus
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RE: DL Rio Service Still Up In The Air

Fri Feb 25, 2005 1:15 pm

Quoting N1120A (reply 25):
The 763 has the plenty of range to do SFO-GRU.


The distance between SFO and GRU is 5625 nm.
The 767-300ER starts losing payload beyond 4100 nm still air. On a normal day with moderate winds it will only be able to carry passengers and their bags (pls zero freight) between GRU and SFO. That's only possible because United's 767s are relatively low density with 193 seats. On strong headwind days it will leave passengers behind if booked up. There may also be an issue with the runway at GRU as the required take-off length on a hot day will be very close to its 3700m. That would be a hair-raising roll indeed.

Comparing with other routes, on GRU-MIA at 4100 mi the plane can be stuffed to the limit. And GRU-MUC that Varig flew is still about 300nm shorter than GRU-SFO.
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MAH4546
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RE: DL Rio Service Still Up In The Air

Fri Feb 25, 2005 1:26 pm

Quoting Hardiwv (reply 20):
Small correction: Sao Paulo has the biggest Japanese community in the world.


I'm pretty sure Tokyo's is larger.  Wink/being sarcastic

Quoting Hardiwv (reply 20):
As stated above, AA flies MIA-GIG nonstop 14 x week.


12x a week.

Quoting Hardiwv (reply 23):
Still, RG only serves LAX 4 x week and the flight is always full. I dont undertand why RG has not upgraded the service to daily. Anyone has information in this respect?


It's not that hard to understand. I'm sure the yield sucks, and the majority of the money that Varig makes at LAX is on Nartia through traffic.
a.
 
hardiwv
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RE: DL Rio Service Still Up In The Air

Fri Feb 25, 2005 11:26 pm

Quoting Incitatus (reply 24):
The other possibility would be Varig put SFO as middle point of a second Brazil Japan flight, e.g., do GRU-LAX-NGO and GRU-SFO-NRT daily. There are no LAX-NGO nonstops currently, right?


Correct, but apparently UA will start flights LAX-NGO later in the year.

RG applied for flights to NGO, as you know the Japanese aviation authorities are very conservative, uncompetitive and slow in granting foreign airlines access to the Japanese market. RG plans to route flights to Japan via ZRH never took off because Japanese authorities would not give RG 5th freedom rights ZRH-NRT.

Quoting MAH4546 (reply 27):
12x a week.


Tks, and with AA flights DFW-GRU increasing possibly MIA-GIG will go back to daily flights.

Quoting MAH4546 (reply 27):
majority of the money that Varig makes at LAX is on Nartia through traffic.


Indeed, and in addition RG has a very poor product = MD-11, to compete decently on the LAX-Japan route!

Rgs,
 
TWA902fly
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RE: DL Rio Service Still Up In The Air

Fri Feb 25, 2005 11:46 pm

Quoting Alb222 (reply 11):
DL will be converting some domestic equipped 767's to International configuration in time for the Summer '06 season. This is one of the reasons DL didn't ask for China routes in 2005.


So youre telling me they were going to operate ATL-PVG or ATL-PEK with a 767-300ER?

TWA902
life wasn't worth the balance, or the crumpled paper it was written on
 
klkla
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RE: DL Rio Service Still Up In The Air

Fri Feb 25, 2005 11:51 pm

Quoting Johnboy (reply 21):
I'd also be interested to see what others think about a SFO-GRU/GIG flight on United metal (disregarding that pesky Chapter 11 designation Big grin). LAX would understandably be a bigger market, but Varig does serve that route already (alas, with connecting flights to SFO).


As a 1K member that flies to Central and South America I would love to see them serve all their South American markets from either LAX (my preference) or SFO instead of two east coast hubs and none on the west coast.
 
alb222
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RE: DL Rio Service Still Up In The Air

Sat Feb 26, 2005 12:07 am

Quoting TWA902fly (reply 29):
So youre telling me they were going to operate ATL-PVG or ATL-PEK with a 767-300ER?


Why don't you read the topic before you come up with that statement. And read what the response was in answr too.
 
incitatus
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RE: DL Rio Service Still Up In The Air

Sat Feb 26, 2005 2:32 am

Quoting MAH4546 (reply 27):
It's not that hard to understand. I'm sure the yield sucks,


Given the chronic overbooking on the route plus its potential to draw traffic from the West Coast & Asia, if the yield sucks it's because Varig can't manage pricing.
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