mozart
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Air France Downgrading On False Pretext

Thu Feb 24, 2005 9:48 pm

Since I am in an AF-bashing mood today anyway, I'ld just like to throw in another anecdote from yesterday: I had a confirmed Business Class reservation on CDG-TXL. When I arrived at check-in, there was a huge queue and when it was my turn the official check-in deadline was over by 3 minutes. I argued that the plane was going to be late anyway (which was true), that I wouldn't have any luggage, that there weren't any lines at security, etc - so the check-in agent called the flight manager, and they told me that the reason they could not take was because they could not give me the business class service (i.e. catering). I replied that I didn't care anyway for (their very very very bad) food, I just needed to be on that flight and that I had been on time. They then offered to check me in for Economy class. Fine, I accepted that.

At the gate, I asked again why they had downgraded me despite my confirmed reservation and my being on time. They said it was because they couldn't give me the business class catering because I had been late.

On board in flight I and all the other pax in my cabin were served the EXACT SAME food as in Business Class! The FA confirmed to me that on European flights the catering service in C and Tempo Challenge (full fare economy) were identical.

So why then downgrade me under the pretext of no food available, just to give me the same food behind the curtain????????? I don't care about the food, but I care about the extra space and privacy in C class (which is one of the reasons why I pay C class), and I am pissed off about being taken for an idiot, for being lied to and for being downgraded for no apparent reason.

What can I say, it's AF and their procedures on the ground... I think even a traffic roundabout in Nigeria is better organised than AF on the ground....

Not sure what kind of comments I expect here, just needed to vent it.  Insane
 
gkirk
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RE: Air France Downgrading On False Pretext

Thu Feb 24, 2005 9:53 pm

Take easyJet  Big thumbs up  Big thumbs up
When you hear the noise of the Tartan Army Boys, we'll be coming down the road!
 
mozart
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RE: Air France Downgrading On False Pretext

Thu Feb 24, 2005 9:58 pm

GKirk,

you are right:D Big grin Big grin Big grin Big grin Big grin Big grin

But, well, U2 doesn't suit me for a number of other reasons.... But at least U2 doesn't have to deal with those "expecting a lot" kind of pax like me...
 
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airportugal310
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RE: Air France Downgrading On False Pretext

Thu Feb 24, 2005 10:39 pm

Food on a flight from CDG-TXL?

Nice...

At least some airlines still go the extra mile for something


AirPortugal310
I sell airplanes and airplane accessories
 
mozart
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RE: Air France Downgrading On False Pretext

Thu Feb 24, 2005 10:48 pm

Well, yes, nice, but don't overestimate it: it's a plastic box with a slice of bread that looks quite old and 2 slices of cheese that definitely is old and one little fruit or chocolate tarte. With a little sticker on the entire thing saying that it was prepared 2 days before. And given that the return fare is a whopping 1.100 Euro + tax...  Yeah sure
 
DoorsToManual
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RE: Air France Downgrading On False Pretext

Thu Feb 24, 2005 11:04 pm

I'm shocked that an airline like AF provide the same catering as Tempo bearing in mind the huge fare premium one often pays to fly in the business cabin. Are you sure this is the case? Again I repeat, I can't believe an airline like AF offers Economy/Business the same meal.

Ok, the flight is brief, but even BA offers its Club pax a completely separate product on a 45 minute flight to AMS...

It sounds like they overbooked business class and needed an excuse.

I work for BA and I have to admit that we may not always have enough extra Club meals for those last-minute Club pax that were not originally booked on a given flight. In such cases, pax are informed at check-in; they can choose to fly on the next flight, but like Mozart most accept the seat in Club without the Club meal....

In defence of of AF though, this kind of problem could have occurred at any other airline.

It's just an embarrassment for the airline staff, and frustration for the business traveller...
 
mozart
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RE: Air France Downgrading On False Pretext

Thu Feb 24, 2005 11:32 pm

DoorsToManual,

AF actually has three classes of service on its European flights: Business (Espace/Affaires), full fare economy (Tempo Challenge), and discount economy (Tempo). In Tempo Challenge, the meal service is the same as in Business. Quite shocking, I agree.

Again, I would have understood if I had been a last minute pax, but I was confirmed on that flight, and they pretended having changed their order with the caterer in those three minutes that I was waiting at check-in. Business was not oversold, there were about 7 seats left.
 
flpuck6
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RE: Air France Downgrading On False Pretext

Thu Feb 24, 2005 11:49 pm

Mozart,

Were you offered compensation for being downgraded?

Did the Purser (Chef de cabine) of the flight offer to write a report?

I am not sure for medium-haul flights, but on long haul flights accepting a passenger after the check-in time (HLE) does sometimes depend on whether we have a meal for him/her!
Bonjour Chef!
 
mozart
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RE: Air France Downgrading On False Pretext

Fri Feb 25, 2005 12:12 am

I was not offered compensation.The Purser however did offer to write a report.

On long haul flights I can understand the difference, even on short haul flights I can understand that they must seek the pax explicit agreement that he does give away his right on food/he agrees to be downgraded, but in this case there was no reason to downgrade! The food was there, just (trying to be) served to me a couple of rows back...
 
DoorsToManual
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RE: Air France Downgrading On False Pretext

Fri Feb 25, 2005 12:21 am

Hi Mozart

If the situation developed as you state, I can't see why they tried to downgrade you; perhaps you should contact their customer services dept? Having paid a business class fare, I would certainly be seeking some redress if I were you.
 
flpuck6
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RE: Air France Downgrading On False Pretext

Fri Feb 25, 2005 12:23 am

Mozart,

That is one big no-no right there. You should have been offered compensation. You were in line before the closing time, it is not your fault they could not clear the line before then. Anyone in line before then is present for check-in "on-time". I would suggest a firm letter to Frequence Plus. The necessary miles should be credited to your account for the clear lack of organisation and (what is in my opinion) lack of customer service. Why am I not surprised this was at CDG lol.

If I understand the frequency of your travel correctly, I am sure you have the proper addresses to which to write.
Bonjour Chef!
 
mozart
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RE: Air France Downgrading On False Pretext

Fri Feb 25, 2005 12:32 am

Flpuck6,

I do....  Big grin As a matter of fact, being the plane-nutter in our company, I also oversee the relations and company contracts we sign with airlines. So I usually am in touch with the sales rep for our company.

I usually don't air every little upset I have with my travel, but in the last days it's been so much that it's been frustrating:

- on Tuesday morning I arrived from BEY into CDG at 5h45 am, just to find that my 7am connection to MUC had been cancelled since the night before, but they hadn't told me at BEY. Then the next two flights got cancelled as well.
- on Wednesday morning, i couldn't go to ZRH because of cancelled flights
- and in the afternoon, I then tried going to TXL from CDG (I originally planned to go there from ZRH but since I was still stuck in Paris), and then the above-described story happened.
- and today I arrived back in Paris 1 hour late because they had to change a tyre on the A319 back in TXL.
- Wonder what it'll be like tomorrow when I need to go to MUC for the day. Return will be on LH though...

Most of these things are nobody's fault, weather can be bad, tyres can burst, I have understanding for all of this and never moan, I only get upset when it's badly managed and I am being made loose a lot of time because of that. And then airlines trying to take me for an idiot - just had to post it here.
 
flpuck6
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RE: Air France Downgrading On False Pretext

Fri Feb 25, 2005 12:52 am

That's the worst thing airlines can do, is take its passengers for idiots. I hate being taken for one, so I don't do it to ours (passengers).

I would not hesitate to include the above details in your communication to F+.

I can only hope this doesn't incite you to fly other companies! LOL  Big grin

A little bit of mess in the AF operations this week ... it seems that a lot of things go hay-wire (get messy) within a span of a few days then for a little while things are ok, then things get messy for 2 days, then go back to "normal". Very interesting how the cycle goes!
Bonjour Chef!
 
mozart
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RE: Air France Downgrading On False Pretext

Fri Feb 25, 2005 1:16 am

Quoting Flpuck6 (reply 12):
I can only hope this doesn't incite you to fly other companies! LOL


Well, on my France-Germany travel, it actually is a decision I make anew every time around the following factors:

- which airline has the most suitable schedule?
- which aircraft is being used (nothing to do with plane nutter, I simply HATE the CRJs Lufthansa is using on many routes out of Paris)

If I have the choice between an AF Airbus/Boeing and a LH CRJ and times are more or less the same, it's definitely AF. If timings are very different, I decide according to schedule.

Other factors are more "feel good":
- LH is by very very very far the more hassle-free and more reliable option
- AF has by very very very very far the nicer cabin service
So it's a matter of what is more important to me in a given moment, a stress-free experience on the ground, or a stress-free experience on board.

I am a top tier status with both (also with BA), so miles aren't an incentive.

By the way, are you within AF? Where are you located? You sound like an insider, but then why are you in PVD?
 
Pihero
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RE: Air France Downgrading On False Pretext

Fri Feb 25, 2005 2:20 am

Mozart,

You should write a book on your adventures..
As usual,you give half the story...

BEY ? Wasn't there some assassination there, with some form of threat recently ? Airlines are very much security conscious, you know.

Wednesday in Paris ? I didn't see many airplanes leaving either CDG or ORY,whatever their colours.Could you have taken LH ?..I think not.

While I sympathize with your trials,I am just beginning to wonder whether your attitude is responsible for the treatment you're being given and whether, as a known "top tier status" holder,you're now paying for all the abuse you've spilt on the ground staff.

Just a thought
Regards.
Contrail designer
 
mozart
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RE: Air France Downgrading On False Pretext

Fri Feb 25, 2005 4:11 am

Pihero,

Quoting Pihero (reply 14):
As usual,you give half the story...


Excuse me, which half have I missed?

Quoting Pihero (reply 14):
BEY ? Wasn't there some assassination there, with some form of threat recently ? Airlines are very much security conscious, you know.


Yes, indeed, Rafik Hariri, former Prime Minister as well as 15 other people got killed in a bomb blast. What does this tragic event have to do with any of this?

Quoting Pihero (reply 14):
Wednesday in Paris ? I didn't see many airplanes leaving either CDG or ORY,whatever their colours.Could you have taken LH ?..I think not.


I never blamed AF for having cancelled the flights. All I said is that I had some frustrating travel experiences this week, and I also said that I do not blame bad weather or repair needs on anyone. Those things happen. But I said that I blame AF for their poor information management. On LH, whenever a flight that I am booked on is cancelled, delayed or merely changes its departure gate, I receive an SMS on my mobile sufficiently ahead of time. AF had advertised a similar service with a lot of pomp. I have received notification from them twice: one time was 10 minutes before check-in closure, so I was just arriving at the airport - just to know that the decision had been taken already hours before. Another time, I was called AFTER the scheduled departure time. And then, never again. Also, the LH call centre can give reliable info,AF has troubles doing that. And so on. Read my posts, you will find that I am not one of the stupid people shouting at airline employees when the weather turns bad. They can't help it.

Quoting Pihero (reply 14):
While I sympathize with your trials,I am just beginning to wonder whether your attitude is responsible for the treatment you're being given and whether, as a known "top tier status" holder,you're now paying for all the abuse you've spilt on the ground staff.


Which abuse? I don't shout at anyone, as I said. In the case I mentioned at the beginning of this thread I politely asked why they would not accept me. I may insist, but never raise my voice. As a matter of fact, things work a zillion times better here in France when you charme people. You should not infere any behavioural issues from my critical assessment of some of the ground procedures at AF. I know there are some people whose ego gets inflated just because they have a status card in their wallet, but that is not my case. I dislike them as much as you probably do.
 
Tango-Bravo
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RE: Air France Downgrading On False Pretext

Fri Feb 25, 2005 5:25 am

Quoting Mozart (reply 2):
But, well, U2 doesn't suit me for a number of other reasons.... But at least U2 doesn't have to deal with those "expecting a lot" kind of pax like me...


Say what you will, sarcasm and all, but this is perhaps the biggest reason that LCCs like U2 can be consistently profitable while the legacies can only hope for the best of times to eke out marginal profits.
 
qm001
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RE: Air France Downgrading On False Pretext

Fri Feb 25, 2005 6:46 am

Hi All,

I just returned from SVO with AF traveling SVO-CDG-BLQ. All I can say is that AF was a total disgrace. As a Skyteam Platinum member I was totally horrified. Don't get me wrong, I love AF! They have great connections and normally they are quite competitive on a Cost vs Benefit analysis. Yes they have strikes but what happened to me was truly ridiculous.

Changed routing on a ticket from HEL departure to SVO departure with an authorization from AF in AMS. Arrived at the Ticket counter at SVO to change my ticket and was asked by the lone agent "ARE YOU BLIND?". Quite shocked I asked why. She replied that it said in big black letters non-reroutable. I said yes, I can read, but that as it was a C-class ticket that AF AMS has agreed to the change. She checked in the booking and said that AF AMS had rebooked and make all necessary changes but that if she re-issued she would be responsible. She said that she didn't understand why and AF Fare and AF Flights had been issued on KL paper. She said that as it was KL paper I had to go to KL. I asked if she could go with me to explain. KL was just as helpful, but did give me a printout, supposedly of the Fare Rules, which read in big letters on the top as usual the Fare Basis and fare paid. Of course these did not respond to the fair basis on my ticket. I explained this to them and this is when they replied that this was the only D-Class fare they could find!

Obviously I must look like an idiot as they continued to dig there holes deeper by saying that the Agent had made a mistake issuing an AF fare and flight on KL paper, and that this was the reason they could not change the ticket. I stood there while calling AF in AMS, at which point the AF Agent asked me if I could stand somewhere else, IN CASE another passenger comes!!!

When I got my Agent on the phone she was just as shocked as I was and asked to speak to the AF Agent. I passed on the telephone, and actually heard the AF Agent say, well you know its very busy and this man is not the only passenger in the world. I was the only passenger at the desk and had been now for 40 mins.

After standing there waiting for AF AMS to send a Telex to SVO, she finally said that standing there waiting would not make her change her mind and that my ticket would not be changed "until hell froze over". At this point, admittedly I loved the show, the AF Manager walked in with a Telex in his hand and asked her what the hell was wrong with her, and was she blind, and that clearly I was a loyal passenger and that I paid here salary.

She promptly changed the ticket and without a word processed the change. It took her 2 minutes, and the AF Manager told here she didn't even need an authorization.

This was typical Moscow!!!

Kind regards,

QM 001 (167 Air Malawi)
I wish there was still a flying boat service on the African Lakes!
 
mozart
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RE: Air France Downgrading On False Pretext

Fri Feb 25, 2005 7:45 am

He he, here's a similar one from the ticket counter: since I wanted to figure which unused electronic tickets I still hold, I went to one of the electronic ticket kiosks (this is at TXL airport this morning) and printed out all the itineraries. I then walked up to the ticket counted and asked them to please identify which of these coupons were already flown and which not (it wasn't clear from the printouts as these only thave the original reservation, but some of them I had changed).

She stared at them and said "I've never seen this in my life" and neither had her colleague. Good start, never seen itinerary receipts.

Then, she looked up the flight of the original booking, and since this didn't bring up anything for the first flight she had tried she simply told me that all these coupons had already been used. She refused to look up by any other method (eg by ticket number or PNR). When I asked her how I could find out which tickets were unused she simply shrugged her shoulders...

Talk of m'enfoutisme...
 
flpuck6
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RE: Air France Downgrading On False Pretext

Fri Feb 25, 2005 12:34 pm

Ahhhhh all the ground staff stories! It sounds like uncompetant agents to me ... though trust me, not all agents are uncompetant ... neither are all agents know-it-alls! That does not excuse for the poor attitudes!

Mozart, oui, je suis de la compagnie ... je suis effectivement a PVD ... trouvez l'aeroport international le plus pret  Big grin :P N'hesitez surtout pas a me contacter.
Bonjour Chef!
 
mozart
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RE: Air France Downgrading On False Pretext

Fri Feb 25, 2005 2:08 pm

Flpuck6,

of course, you are right, not all agents are incompetent, and attitude isn't always bad. The cabin crew on my "problematic" CDG-TXL was adorable. All in all, AF cabin crew are absolutely adorable in 99% of cases, which is why I actually like AF and find their on board service and the atmosphere that is created by the staff really really pleasant and nice.

As for the saga of cancelled flights: I am writing this early in the morning because I am up and trying to go to Germany, and my flight has been... cancelled. They say it's weather. Whatever. Just before I am getting accused of arrogance or of hauling insults: I am not loosing my temper, I haven't abused anyone, I don't blame anyone. I am just in the mood of sharing a week of experiences flying in and out of Paris.  Smile/happy/getting dizzy No offense meant to anyone.
 
lamedianaranja
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RE: Air France Downgrading On False Pretext

Fri Feb 25, 2005 5:56 pm

Groundstaff usually have no idea of the type of meal served on the airline. We don't get to fly that much!
You were not offered compensation because you were oficially too late, the flight had closed for check-in. Groundstaff is trained to allow passengers go to the gate under the following conditions:
- no guarantee of a meal
- the aircraft doesn't wait for you, it's your own risk trying to make it

Also, the moment the flight closes for check-in seats are given out to waitlist passengers. At that moment noshow passengers (like you!) lose their reservation.
So it's very possible that businessclass was full. So if you accept to being downgraded there's no compensation, it's even a nice gesture of the airline that they're still willing to take you.
They may also force you to take the next flight and make you pay a penalty on your ticket for the change!
Another example: MH doesn't take passengers in a class they don't have a meal for. It gives the impression of poor service to other passengers. They prefer to fly with empty seats and not upgrade if they dont have the meals available.

Quoting Pihero (reply 14):
Wednesday in Paris ? I didn't see many airplanes leaving either CDG or ORY,whatever their colours.Could you have taken LH ?..I think not.

Wednesday CDG was closed for all in/out flights shorter than 2 hours. It affected all AMS operations too.
I wish that all skies were orange and blue!!
 
AMSSpotter
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RE: Air France Downgrading On False Pretext

Fri Feb 25, 2005 8:40 pm

Quoting Lamedianaranja (reply 21):
You were not offered compensation because you were oficially too late, the flight had closed for check-in


Mozart said he did show up at check-in before their official closing time. AF just didn't manage to clear the line before then.
To me it seems, just like FLpuck6 said in reply 10, that it's not Mozart's fault if AF are unable to clear a line and that Mozart is indeed entitled to get compensation(?)
I am getting confused now...if I show up like 12:20, check-in officially closes 12:30 but there still is a huge line and the airline is unable to clear that line before 12:30. Who is responsible? To me, I would think it's the airline or do the rules differ from country to country?
It's my guess that in Canada or the States one would have definitely been compensated.
 
flpuck6
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RE: Air France Downgrading On False Pretext

Fri Feb 25, 2005 10:52 pm

Where I work, if you are in line before check-in closing time, we are responsible for checking you in. It will mean the flight will close out a few minutes late, but we will still accept the passenger.

I wonder if circumstances are different on long haul vs. short haul flights?

Groundstaff usually have no idea of the type of meal served on the airline. We don't get to fly that much!


Well the groundstaff should be more informed. Passengers have questions about their inflight experience before they get on the ground and they should be answered correctly. Inform YOURSELF if you don't know. You will only be enhancing the customer's experience.
Bonjour Chef!
 
AMSSpotter
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RE: Air France Downgrading On False Pretext

Fri Feb 25, 2005 11:00 pm

Flpuck6, thank you for the info!
 
mozart
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RE: Air France Downgrading On False Pretext

Fri Feb 25, 2005 11:26 pm

Flpuck6,

wow, you're aiming for "employee of the month" status at AF here!  Smile/happy/getting dizzy

In any case, thanks for the well-informed comments here, and welcome on my RR list. Hope to hear from you again soon on this forum.
 
flpuck6
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RE: Air France Downgrading On False Pretext

Fri Feb 25, 2005 11:30 pm

LOL Mozart ... hardly! I just try to do my best. It's just frustrating when I hear stories like this ... no one is perfect and sh*t happens ... but there are ways to handle them.

Oh, Mozart ... you should have gone to the "comptoir HC" (Elite check-in)!
Bonjour Chef!
 
flpuck6
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RE: Air France Downgrading On False Pretext

Fri Feb 25, 2005 11:33 pm

Oh, I have a friend who is travelling in a group whose flight left BCN about 1h45 late making them miss their connection to Boston (BOS) for the 13h15 flight. The 2nd flight to BOS at 15h55 was already full so they must spend the night at CDG.

I guess weather and ATC regulation are wreaking havoc?

I hope AF was nice to them ... in any case, I'll hear about it when they get back.
Bonjour Chef!
 
Doona
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RE: Air France Downgrading On False Pretext

Fri Feb 25, 2005 11:40 pm

Mozart. I have to tell you that I have experienced the exact opposite of what you did.
On a flight CPH-AMS I was seated in the Y cabin, but since there not alot of biz-PAX, the cabin divider was moved foreward to make room for more Y PAX. This meant 5 abreast seating on a 733, this was before the invent of convertable seats... Not only did I get the biz seat, me and my travelling companion were offered biz meals as well, as we were seated in the first row of the main cabin, and they apparently had two meals to spare.
Feel sorry for you though, having to pay a full Biz class fare...
Sure, we're concerned for our lives. Just not as concerned as saving 9 bucks on a roundtrip to Ft. Myers.
 
jobalas
Posts: 136
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RE: Air France Downgrading On False Pretext

Fri Feb 25, 2005 11:47 pm

Merci Mozart, hope to see U in my planes...
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la Terre...
 
jouy31
Posts: 305
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RE: Air France Downgrading On False Pretext

Sat Feb 26, 2005 1:30 am

Although I sometimes experience problems with AF, I have also had pleasant surprises, even in TXL  Wink/being sarcastic.

I was returning to CDG after at a conference last December. My friend had joined me for the return leg, booked in one of the cheapest fares, while I was in l'Espace. At check-in, I asked if I could be seated at the back with my friend, but was told it would not be possible and we would have to be seated in Tempo Challenge  Wink/being sarcastic. After a short visit to the AF TXL lounge (which is much better than the shared lounge I remembered), we went through security at the gate. For once, I wanted to board early as I had some equipment with me and we rushed to the jetway. And there we were handed, with a smile, replacement boarding cards for a second upgrade to l'Espace  Wink/being sarcastic  Wink/being sarcastic. In addition, although the snack was as disappointing as usual, the Champagne and the very pleasant cabin crew made the flight quite enjoyable. When something goes wrong on AF, things can sometimes go downhill quickly, but when they give their best and are as exquisite as they can be, it is a real pleasure.

[Edited 2005-02-25 17:33:16]
 
jouy31
Posts: 305
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RE: Air France Downgrading On False Pretext

Sat Feb 26, 2005 1:45 am

Quoting DoorsToManual (reply 5):
I'm shocked that an airline like AF provide the same catering as Tempo bearing in mind the huge fare premium one often pays to fly in the business cabin. Are you sure this is the case? Again I repeat, I can't believe an airline like AF offers Economy/Business the same meal.


Actually, the premium on most European routes between Full-fare Y and C is not that much. On a round trip, depending whether you are on a discounted (carrier restricted) business class ticket or not, the difference ranges from about 70 euros up to 400 euros (CDG-ATH). The real difference in fare is between discounted and full-fare Y. Although I fly C (I pay the upgrade from full-fare Y, ie S, which my company pays for, to C), I can understand why AF would slightly upgrade service in Tempo Challenge. What I have a problem with is AF substantially downgrading medium-haul C service, as they did last March, while keeping C fares unchanged and lowering discounted Y fares.
 
mozart
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RE: Air France Downgrading On False Pretext

Sat Feb 26, 2005 3:48 am

Jouy31,

Quoting Jouy31 (reply 31):
What I have a problem with is AF substantially downgrading medium-haul C service, as they did last March, while keeping C fares unchanged and lowering discounted Y fares.


You read my mind. But this was a topic of another thread on this forum back then, wasn't it?

But then, honestly guys, how can you explain it that despite this prison food they serve in European C class Air France is still the most pleasant flying experience? I think a lot has to do with the "what they think of themselves" of the AF cabin crew. They walk and talk like real hosts in their little hotel in the sky, vey classy, very corteous. I wasn't surprised at all whn one of them told me that they had actually gone on strike when the prison food concept was introduced - they felt ashamed to serve that to their pax.

With all the moaning about their procedures on the ground - with notable exceptions, one apparently across the pond  Wink/being sarcastic - I have to say Kudos to their cabin crew. Otherwise, if I weren't attracted by them to come back to AF all the time, how could I tell all those war stories?  Wink/being sarcastic

Jobalas,

Quoting Jobalas (reply 29):
Merci Mozart, hope to see U in my planes...


that would be nice. WHich type are you on? Do you allow visits to the poste de pilotage? Been on two of them in the past 6 months, loved it.
 
mozart
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RE: Air France Downgrading On False Pretext

Sat Feb 26, 2005 3:49 am

Flpuck6,

what is the comptoir HC? Where is it?
 
Pihero
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RE: Air France Downgrading On False Pretext

Sat Feb 26, 2005 3:51 am

Mozart,
No offense had been intended.
I was just commenting on your endless "Air France bashing mood" (your words).

And , YES ,you seem to be quite content of giving YOUR version of the events,witness the other thread in which you never answered my comments.
On all the days you mentioned, I happened to be on duty so I had some first-hand knowledge of the facts, and my comments were meant to give another aspect of those dysfunctions.
I for one would never agree with unprofessional passenger treatment, rudeness and offhanded handling of a client's wishes and I would be glad to help you in any dealing you would need with the airline.
On the other hand, you don't seem to help a lot on your case.
No, we're not the best, but we're trying, most of the time quite hard,but as a french resident you are -must be- aware of the global french situation. The first example that comes to my mind is the agreement between the management and the unions that should have prevented all wildcat, or unnecessary strikes within the airline...Look what happened in ORY ...I even agree with you that as the national public service airline is no more, some people need to be reminded of the realities of a competitive free market...Mais ça prend du temps,Monsieur. At least we stopped, contrarily to SNCF talking about "usagers" instead of "Clients".

Another example is the ROC.Recently, a document showed it to achieve 78% -and rising -versus a goal of 99% or more. You were among the 22% who couldn't be joined in time. Just let us know, we might just be able to help you.

Kind regards.

PS:THe BEY cancellations were about obvious reasons.You mentioned them.
Contrail designer
 
jobalas
Posts: 136
Joined: Thu Mar 08, 2001 1:44 am

RE: Air France Downgrading On False Pretext

Sat Feb 26, 2005 3:55 am

Mozart,
I'm a cabin crew and yes we are allow to go in the 'poste de pilotage'  Smile/happy/getting dizzy. Maybe U will be on my flight because i'm work on the AF short/medium haul ( germany included!!!)...So, see U maybe...( and sorry again for your trip!)
bye
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la Terre...
 
jouy31
Posts: 305
Joined: Mon May 05, 2003 4:59 pm

RE: Air France Downgrading On False Pretext

Sat Feb 26, 2005 5:15 pm

Quoting Mozart (reply 32):
They walk and talk like real hosts in their little hotel in the sky, vey classy, very corteous. I wasn't surprised at all whn one of them told me that they had actually gone on strike when the prison food concept was introduced - they felt ashamed to serve that to their pax.

With all the moaning about their procedures on the ground - with notable exceptions, one apparently across the pond - I have to say Kudos to their cabin crew.


Mozart,

On this, I fully agree with you. I could not find better words to say how great AF' s cabin crew are.  Big thumbs up
 
Pihero
Posts: 4196
Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2005 5:11 am

RE: Air France Downgrading On False Pretext

Sat Feb 26, 2005 6:16 pm

Have you finished with self congratulations, Jouy an Jobalas ?
If not,let me join the club.
Adieu !
Contrail designer
 
flpuck6
Posts: 2047
Joined: Fri Jun 11, 1999 12:32 am

RE: Air France Downgrading On False Pretext

Sat Feb 26, 2005 10:51 pm

Mozart,

The "comptoir HC" are the counters for Elite fliers, i.e. First and Business Class lines. Usually no lines. I am not too familiar with Terminal D, so I cannot tell you where they are off the top of my head.
Bonjour Chef!
 
mozart
Posts: 2028
Joined: Thu Aug 14, 2003 12:21 am

RE: Air France Downgrading On False Pretext

Sun Feb 27, 2005 2:53 am

Pihero,

Quoting Pihero (reply 34):
you seem to be quite content of giving YOUR version of the events,witness the other thread in which you never answered my comments.


sorry if I seem one-sided, I'll go back to the other thread (I guess you mean the snow one) to check and answer...

As for my "AF bashing mood", not sure if you have the time, but if you like check out my other posts on this forum. You will find the same points over and over again:

1) ADP is a terribly managed airport company. I have understanding for adversitites, but they seem to deal with them less well than other big hubs.
2) AF is a wonderful company. I am a very loyal customer and will remain so. I have been only complimentary about the flying experience I have had with them. THis holds especially in comparison to LH, but also BA, which are the companies with which I have most experience as a pax.
3) However, AF has a weak spot, which are things on the ground. Yes, I know, you and your colleagues try hard and mostly things happen with a smile, and there has never been a harsh word exchanged between me and any ground personnel. I never complain about rudeness, because I've never experienced it. I believe it's more system-endemic: it's not the ground staff's fault if certain things are organised in a way different and sometimes less reliable from - for instance - LH. Thus, I don't criticise single employees, just the course of certain incidents which have their roots in the way AF works.
4) I love LH for their efficiency and reliability, but other than that I think it's a dump in the sky. They don't manage to create a nice atmosphere or a pleasant experience for their pax. I especially dislike their growing use of Canadair RJs.

You will find these four topics over and over again, and I have so many posts on them because every time I state a new anecdote. That's why.

So please don't feel offended.

Quoting Pihero (reply 34):
On the other hand, you don't seem to help a lot on your case.


Could you please explain to me why you say I don't help a lot on my case?

Quoting Pihero (reply 34):
At least we stopped, contrarily to SNCF talking about "usagers" instead of "Clients".


I fully agree with you. There is a lot of difference between the attitude of AF and SNCF.

Quoting Pihero (reply 34):
THe BEY cancellations were about obvious reasons.You mentioned them.


That must have been a misunderstanding - I said that my onward flight from CDG to MUC had been cancelled when I arrived from BEY. The BEY flight was running normally.

I think we're more in line than it may seem. Keep up the good work (and the spirits!)
 
Pihero
Posts: 4196
Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2005 5:11 am

RE: Air France Downgrading On False Pretext

Sun Feb 27, 2005 3:51 am

Mozart,
Looking at the stats I gave a link to on the other thread,I seem to miss the efficiency and reliability of LHR compared to CDG.
Hey ! would you please start another thread so we won't have to shuttle back and forth between two ?
Cordialement
Contrail designer
 
addi375
Posts: 99
Joined: Thu Jun 14, 2001 10:32 am

RE: Air France Downgrading On False Pretext

Sun Feb 27, 2005 5:17 am

I work for AF and get treated horribly when I travel GP from CDG.
Most of those people are ADP and not acutally AF and they could give a damn.
Walmart prices with Bloomies service...........
 
hardiwv
Posts: 4341
Joined: Sat Oct 09, 2004 11:30 pm

RE: Air France Downgrading On False Pretext

Sun Feb 27, 2005 5:57 am

Quoting Mozart (reply 0):
The FA confirmed to me that on European flights the catering service in C and Tempo Challenge (full fare economy) were identical.


At in SK, which also operates in three classes, food in economy flex and business is differente. Btw, economy class only paid food.

Quoting Mozart (reply 6):
AF actually has three classes of service on its European flights: Business (Espace/Affaires), full fare economy (Tempo Challenge), and discount economy (Tempo). In Tempo Challenge, the meal service is the same as in Business. Quite shocking, I agree.


Just for your info: KLM business class pax, flying AMS-CDG, with Z ticket, are no placed on AF's Economy Challenge. In other words: you pay for business and fly economy.

My question: Is AF coming down to KLM level?

Rgs,
 
PVD757
Posts: 3021
Joined: Sun Aug 24, 2003 8:23 pm

RE: Air France Downgrading On False Pretext

Sun Feb 27, 2005 6:48 am

I used to work for AA(I know, big deal) and when we had something like this, we had to refund the difference in ticket prices. You should at least complain about not getting that back. As far as food goes, I thought on international flights like transatlantic( I know, not relevant in this case, just wanted to type something) airlines order the food in blocks, sometimes in quarters of the cabin. If there are 28 business class seats, it would be ordered by sevens(not very hard). I have no idea what AF does across the pond though, just bloviating with a keyboard.
 
pat
Posts: 110
Joined: Wed Aug 16, 2000 7:26 am

RE: Air France Downgrading On False Pretext

Sun Feb 27, 2005 12:19 pm

Interesting thread indeed ...

Sounds like Mozart has had a big slice of the "bad travel experiences" cake in a few days".

A few comments though :

1/ I work in an airport where we start check - in at 17.30 (so called "pre-check-in") and closes out at 23.20 for a long haul departure at 00.20; a whole bunch of pax arrive at 22.30/23.00 ... are we supposed to check them all in in +/- 45min ? Nobody likes to come hours before departure for short(long) haul flights but that's a way to be sure about your seat, to avoid the usual hassle, to be advised early enough in case of delay or canx ... and sometimes to benefit of some foreseen upgradings, as such, ... This said in an airport like CDG or ORY they should be able to clean the lines or accept the pax who were queuing before close out time. But in big hubs the staff is often forced to be less flexible ... and this leads to my second point ...

2/ AF is a huge and great company, with ALL the training tools necessary to train their staff very correctly ... BUT ... from all my travel experience (and ground observations) they are (don't misunderstand me ...) in general quite nose - up (sorry for my french friends) "La France, Paris, we know it all " behaviour, sometimes leading to over-unflexibility and unfriendly behaviour.
They loose lots of pax because of that but since they are so huge, with so many destinations offered, with at times attractive fares, that there are still a lot of pax flying them ... quite logic.

3/ Now, a short comment to QM001 post about the endorsement of his ticket ... I can't quite follow the story (issuing office, which carriers documents used by whom, from what point to what point, ...) but anyway ... a few ticketing rules - which don't mean that I disagree with QM001 about his story - A full IATA c-class tariff is always endorsable if endorsed (stamp "endorsed onto...") by the carrier who "owns" the document (in this case KL apparently) ... a D-class (although business class fare) is as such not automatically endorsable ... but ticketing can sometimes be a very tricky business, more especially when ticketing agents are not correctly trained.

Cheers,

Pat

PS : as for the BEY flight story ... you should have been informed about the upcoming canx Mozart ! Nothing to say about it ... unless BEY station has not been informed from HQ ? That would amaze me ... on the top of that, if (?) they are performing check - in on their own check - in system (Gaétan) they would have seen the info on the screen before/while providing you with the boarding pass for the next flight ...
 
jouy31
Posts: 305
Joined: Mon May 05, 2003 4:59 pm

RE: Air France Downgrading On False Pretext

Tue Mar 01, 2005 11:04 pm

Quoting Flpuck6 (reply 38):
The "comptoir HC" are the counters for Elite fliers, i.e. First and Business Class lines. Usually no lines. I am not too familiar with Terminal D, so I cannot tell you where they are off the top of my head.


In 2D, the elite or haute contribution counters are not grouped as they are, for instance in 2C or 2E. They are flight specific, which means that counters 8, for instance, can have 2 coach lines and 1 business class or elite line. I definitely prefer the 2C/2E setup, because it means that I can checkin earlier than 2.5 hrs, as is the current limitation in 2D.
 
flpuck6
Posts: 2047
Joined: Fri Jun 11, 1999 12:32 am

RE: Air France Downgrading On False Pretext

Wed Mar 02, 2005 1:33 am

They should still be able to clear the lines by the latest check-in time (HLE) though, no!? And the Elite passenger should not be waiting more than 3 minutes to check-in anyway (the waiting time has now been extended to 5 minutes).
Bonjour Chef!

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