aerohottie
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NZ Call EK A Parasite

Fri Feb 25, 2005 5:27 am

Ralph Norris, CEO of Air New Zealand while announcing the companies 6 month results today described the Tasman route as a "blood bath", and accussed airlines such as Emirates of capacity dumping, an anti-competitive act in any other industry other than international aviation (or so it would seem). Emirates' New Zealand regional manager replied that Emirates operate well within its operating guidelines and complies with all regulations and agreements. They went on to say that Emirates were allowed onto the route to increase competition, and are now accussed of being too competitive.
Ralph Norris described the behaviour of some of Air NZ's competitors on the route as "parasitic". On top of this is it widely understood and recognised that Qantas operating on the tasman route and domestic New Zealand are also losing money. Air New Zealand also believe Qantas are also being anticompetitive on their domestic New Zealand services, using the other parts of their network to subsidise this service.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/stuff/0,2106,3198471a13,00.html
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RE: NZ Call EK A Parasite

Fri Feb 25, 2005 5:46 am

Also read in todays paper that AKL demands all airlines that operate to AKL to pay up to help the airport pay for upgrades for the A380 when AKL is loaded with cash. The airport is also planning a 1 month runway upgrade, starting next month.
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JoKeR
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RE: NZ Call EK A Parasite

Fri Feb 25, 2005 5:55 am

Aerohottie,

Mr Norris' statement on the website you mention is far more diplomatic than your summary Big grin

Back to the topic, is EK the "only other" non-indigenous participant on the trans-Tasman routes? Also, I thought that EK's trans-Tasman services were achieving disappointing loads? Any truth to this previously "discussed to death" statement?
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RE: NZ Call EK A Parasite

Fri Feb 25, 2005 6:23 am

Airlines that will not be using the A380 in AKL should not have to pay for facilities for other Airlines aircraft (EK,SQ, and maybe QF).
 
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RE: NZ Call EK A Parasite

Fri Feb 25, 2005 6:34 am

What airlines are currently planning on using the A380 on it's AKL services? Surely there's not enough demand to warrant the super jumbo?

It brings to mind when SAS ordered a bunch of 747s in the early seventies, just because that was what everybody else did. Sure, the first few flights made economical sense, but in the end the 742s were sold, SAS having lost hundreds of thousands of dollars on the A/C...
Sure, we're concerned for our lives. Just not as concerned as saving 9 bucks on a roundtrip to Ft. Myers.
 
zeekiel
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RE: NZ Call EK A Parasite

Fri Feb 25, 2005 6:39 am

First post for me. Woohoo!!!

Anyway, I saw ONE News last night and heard the comment from Mr Norris. I think its just sour grapes really. Mr Norris does not know that if you travel on a Emirates 777-300 across the Tasman it is nowhere near even 80% full. Especially in the F and J cabins where I have travelled recently and have only found 2 in First and 7 in Business on the AKL-MEL-AKL sectors. Emirates uses these aircraft so they are not sitting around in Australia from morning to evening (which is when Emirates operate their MEL-BNE-SYD services outbound back to DXB). It is the cargo capacity which allows it to operate to Auckland and Christchurch but as far as economics go, I am not that well enlightened on if its a money making venture.

Air New Zealand operates a far superior schedule to Emirates that allows for business and leisure travellers alike. It operates smaller equipment for their better schedule (A320's albeit a few 744 services here and there for cargo) and is more suited for connections through to US services (now at least) and to the Pacific Islands (not Fiji) as well. Air New Zealand as far as I have flown trans tasman has had excellent loads with almost full J and Y classes.

Quoting JoKeR (reply 2):

Back to the topic, is EK the "only other" non-indigenous participant on the trans-Tasman routes?


Not exactly. Several non-indigenous airlines operate trans-tasman as per our open skies agreement. Some operate daily, some don't.

Thai
Lan Chile
Royal Brunei
Aerolineas Argentinas (I think)
Garuda Indonesia
Polynesian Airlines
Emirates

There may be more airlines or less so I'm not sure.

Cheers

zeekiel
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NZ747
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RE: NZ Call EK A Parasite

Fri Feb 25, 2005 7:18 am

Welcome to A.net Zeekiel. It's great to boost the small New Zealand community here.

Quoting Zeekiel (reply 5):
...and to the Pacific Islands (not Fiji) as well.


What do you mean 'not Fiji'? Passengers going from Australia to Fiji have a good connection time for most flights to Nadi. AirNZ has put smaller Aircraft on the AKL-NAN route and increased the number of daily/weekly flights. In addition to the new WLG-NAN service.

[Edited 2005-02-24 23:18:42]
 
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RE: NZ Call EK A Parasite

Fri Feb 25, 2005 7:53 am

Quoting NZ747 (reply 6):
What do you mean 'not Fiji'? Passengers going from Australia to Fiji have a good connection time for most flights to Nadi.


Sorry there mate. My mistake. I meant it in the sense that there are direct flights from MEL-SYD-BNE on FJ. But yes there are good connection times from Australia to Fiji via NZ.

Quoting NZ747 (reply 3):
Airlines that will not be using the A380 in AKL should not have to pay for facilities for other Airlines aircraft (EK,SQ, and maybe QF).


I do admit that the A380 will be a quandry for AKL as only three airlines will potentially operate the bulbous mass to begin with. Auckland does need to expand its terminal as the traffic just swamps the airport in summer. We may need to future proof our terminal by building gates for these as more airlines in the near future may choose to operate these aircraft.

It's very touchy issue and we may see quite a bit of friction on the matter.

Thanks

Zeekiel
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RupesNZ
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RE: NZ Call EK A Parasite

Fri Feb 25, 2005 8:52 am

I heard the CEO of AKL International comment on the business news at lunch time ( National Radio ) that costs relating to the A380 only counted towards 7% of their capital expansion project.

To suggest that the other airlines are subsidising those airlines that will land A380's into New Zealand is a bit much given this percentage.
 
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RE: NZ Call EK A Parasite

Fri Feb 25, 2005 9:40 am

Also read in the paper, (only read one of the articles on the NZ thing in the Business section as me and my other work mates had to leave for WLG to process the passengers from Polynesian Airlines), that NZ are planning on building their own terminal that will house both domestic AND International flights, to make the NZ experience better for its passengers.
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N79969
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RE: NZ Call EK A Parasite

Fri Feb 25, 2005 10:22 am

The presence of Emirates on the trans-Tasman route is one of the factors that would put a tie-up between Qantas and ANZ within the realm of possible someday. While I understand ANZ's gripe about having a 5th freedom competitor on a trunk route, their presence may end up helping them in the long run.
 
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RE: NZ Call EK A Parasite

Fri Feb 25, 2005 11:47 am

I listened to the audio link of Mr Norris's earnings report on ANZ's web site. At no time did he name any names when he was talking on the subject of dumping of seats on the trans Tasman market. So to say that he named EK is false. Please take care to state the facts not the conjecture of the Press.
 
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RE: NZ Call EK A Parasite

Fri Feb 25, 2005 12:28 pm

SunriseValley,

Ralph Norris did name Emirates on both the ONE news and TV3 news, not in the official media release of NZ's financial earnings. He also later stated the phrase "parasitic", when referring to Emirates. The media release on the NZ website is not the only source of information for this topic. I think you would be able to still view the video on either the TV ONE or TV3 websites.
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aerohottie
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RE: NZ Call EK A Parasite

Fri Feb 25, 2005 12:37 pm

Here is the link to some of the news coverage on TV ONE news.

http://tvnz.co.nz/view/news_business_story_skin/475838%3fformat=html

Couldnt find TV3, but you will be able to find articled at....

http://www.nzherald.co.nz
http://www.stuff.co.nz
http://www.nzoom.co.nz
http://www.xtra.co.nz

Enjoy
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Sydscott
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RE: NZ Call EK A Parasite

Fri Feb 25, 2005 12:53 pm

All I've got to say to Ralph and Air New Zealand is that the level of competition is going to stay as it is and if they dont like it that's just tough. Get used to it!!!

So what if Qantas New Zealand is losing money??? If it were losing bucket loads then QF would withdraw the services. However if they did ANZ would increase fares and the public would bo worse off. Again it's just tough!!!
 
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RE: NZ Call EK A Parasite

Fri Feb 25, 2005 1:07 pm

Im flying emirates to christchurch ex melb over easter and am looking forward to it. I think as far as the schedule goes it is better than qantas, air nz and virgin. I leave early in the morning on the way over and then arrive in the early evening on the return leg, allowing pretty much an extra 2 days holiday. Also at $220 pp + tax return its was a bargin airfare.. and i get to go on the A340-500 instead of a pissy little 737. Cant wait.. !
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RE: NZ Call EK A Parasite

Fri Feb 25, 2005 1:45 pm

Quoting Rushed (reply 15):
I think as far as the schedule goes it is better than qantas, air nz and virgin.


And you can't do that on NZ and QF? Oh yes you can, and most people prefer to have options, ie frequency.

I must admit though, where possible I would choose a widebody.
 
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RE: NZ Call EK A Parasite

Fri Feb 25, 2005 1:46 pm

Is there any significant traffic between Auckland and Dubai, or does Emirates exclusively rely on the trans-Tasman traffic for its operations to New Zealand?
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RE: NZ Call EK A Parasite

Fri Feb 25, 2005 4:47 pm

Quoting Sydscott (reply 14):
However if they did ANZ would increase fares and the public would bo worse off.

What makes you think that Sydscott? Have you got any evidence it would happen? like you said in your post the level of competition is going to stay as it is

Quoting Rushed (reply 15):
and i get to go on the A340-500 instead of a pissy little 737.

QFs and DJs 737s?

Quoting SunriseValley (reply 11):
So to say that he named EK is false.

SunriseValley, how about you make sure what your saying is not false!
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RE: NZ Call EK A Parasite

Fri Feb 25, 2005 4:58 pm

Quoting NZ747 (reply 3):
Airlines that will not be using the A380 in AKL should not have to pay for facilities for other Airlines aircraft


Because they do not benefit from improved passenger and baggage handling?
 
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RE: NZ Call EK A Parasite

Fri Feb 25, 2005 11:04 pm

777ER....

I retract.... thanks for the other links. I don't think it was smart of Mr Norris to name names. AirNZ could if they wished allocate limited seats on AKL-BNE/MEL 747 services to counter EK's pricing. I realise that they do not offer wide body service into CHC from Aus. But they could sweeten the pot by offering double FF points/dollars on sectors departing about the same time as EK. They have options available to them.
 
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RE: NZ Call EK A Parasite

Fri Feb 25, 2005 11:52 pm

I don't understand... why don't these airlines, NZ & QF stop complaining and start competing. Why not take the plunge and trial Australia/NZ to Europe flights via DXB and exploit what seems to be a growing market?

Codeshares with MEA, Royal Jordanian, Syrian, Egyptair, Iran Air, THY, etc should ensure a good passenger mix between Australia/NZ and the Middle East as well as those pax who wish to continue with either QF or NZ to Europe.

Additional revenue can be generated as both QF and NZ would be able to carry pax between DXB and Europe for those that have deplaned in DXB for other destinations.

Is there no market at all for this to happen or even be considered?
 
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RE: NZ Call EK A Parasite

Sat Feb 26, 2005 1:31 am

MEA....
I think the issue of "dumping" is confined to trans-Tasman O/D traffic not traffic that O/D's beyond Australia and New Zealand.
To take your argument a stage further, why not give EK some of its own medicine by dumping seats on the DXB to its major European destinations. It's only 2900 + nm from DXD to LHR.
QF and NZ should create an agreement similar to the BA/QF one to share revenue etc and go after EK jointly. QF would have to improve the consistency of it's cabin service. If I read the comments on the list correctly they need to offer an early retirement package to clean out the malcontents.
Alternatively set up a crew base in Dubai with Arabic cabin crews or include some at their London base.
 
aerohottie
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RE: NZ Call EK A Parasite

Sat Feb 26, 2005 8:28 am

SunriseValley,

I agree. NZ could boost the widebody usage across the tasman, and then jointly attack EK with QF and possible even SQ at SIN, on the OZ/SIN and SIN/DXB routes, between NZ/QF/SQ they could each offer limited services between DXB and Europe. Give EK a taste of their own medicine, and spread the loisses between them.
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RE: NZ Call EK A Parasite

Sat Feb 26, 2005 8:47 am

Quoting MEA (reply 21):
Why not take the plunge and trial Australia/NZ to Europe flights via DXB

What has be remembered is that slots at LHR are restricted. If either QF or NZ were to operate to LHR via DXB then most likly one of their other routes would have to be dropped.
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zeekiel
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RE: NZ Call EK A Parasite

Sat Feb 26, 2005 8:51 am

I think the question of whether Air New Zealand or Qantas flying the DXB-LHR sector is a difficult one.

Quoting SunriseValley (reply 22):
To take your argument a stage further, why not give EK some of its own medicine by dumping seats on the DXB to its major European destinations. It's only 2900 + nm from DXD to LHR.


As far as dumping seats goes I'm not really sure if QF or NZ are really going for that. It isn't as easy for airlines such as NZ and QF to dump seats on those European routes that EK serves. Remember NZ and QF are limited by the fleet size and the sheer distance from our part of the world. Just remember it takes roughly 24 hours travelling time from AKL/SYD/MEL to LHR/CDG/FRA/FCO. DXB and Emirates are ideally located as it doesn't require extreme long haul aircraft to European ports (they can operate their A330 and 777 fleet no sweat to Europe where NZ and QF would probably have to delve into their 744 (at current excluding potential 772 and A380 A/C) fleets to find capacity which are already pretty much stretched out).

Remember LHR is severely slot restricted and getting a slot for say a thrice weekly service isn't as easy as pie.

As far as trans-tasman dumping of seats goes, I think that is a little unfair. Remember that there is an open skies agreement in this area. Emirates use this route for their cargo capacity and generate money that way rather than letting the aircraft sit on the Australian east coast for over 8 hours. Of course these huge 773 and 345 aircraft have incredible passenger carrying ability so the dumping may just be inevitable as well as giving Joe and Joanne (no sexism or political correctness intended!) Traveller another option.

So if Emirates dropped its aircraft down to the 330 on these routes and cut say BNE-AKL and say MEL-CHC, would Ralph Norris change his mind?

Oh well thats my rant (not really).

Thanks

Zeekiel
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RichardJF
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RE: NZ Call EK A Parasite

Sat Feb 26, 2005 9:27 am

A useful strategy for QF might be to run Australian Airlines to somewhere like Stansted and Manchester via India using 744's, that might effect EK a bit.
NZ should put a couple of 763 into max capacity 8 abreast 328 seater layout under the Freedomair brand. When you've got price wars like this on the Tasman it is better to adjust strategy. Running NZ and Freedom together on the main Tasman routes on a dual approach is best.
WLG-SYD 2 weekly
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AKL-SYD 3 weekly
AKL-MEL 2 weekly
 
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RE: NZ Call EK A Parasite

Sat Feb 26, 2005 2:13 pm

Quoting RichardJF (reply 26):
NZ should put a couple of 763 into max capacity 8 abreast 328 seater layout under the Freedomair brand.

Will NEVER happen as long as SJ operate B733/A320
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RE: NZ Call EK A Parasite

Sat Feb 26, 2005 3:03 pm

Weren't EK meant to start PER - AKL some time? I heard it a while ago. I presume if that happened, it would make it worse
 
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RE: NZ Call EK A Parasite

Sat Feb 26, 2005 5:32 pm

Quoting ZKSUJ (reply 28):
Weren't EK meant to start PER - AKL some time? I heard it a while ago. I presume if that happened, it would make it worse


It is happening soon, watch this space. Also there is to be a 2nd SYD-AKL flight soon.

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RE: NZ Call EK A Parasite

Sat Feb 26, 2005 5:56 pm

Quoting NZ1 (reply 29):
It is happening soon

Wow, an EK A343 to AKL
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RE: NZ Call EK A Parasite

Sat Feb 26, 2005 7:02 pm

Quoting NZ1 (reply 29):
It is happening soon, watch this space. Also there is to be a 2nd SYD-AKL flight soon.


Oh so that is happening, and also PER hadn't heard about that for a little while.
 
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RE: NZ Call EK A Parasite

Sun Feb 27, 2005 12:04 pm

Man, 5 times a day in AKL, thats quite a big presence
 
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RE: NZ Call EK A Parasite

Sun Feb 27, 2005 1:08 pm

Perth won't happen. They can squeeze in a flight from BNE/SYD/MEL to New Zealand and back within the existing schedule - the aircraft would otherwise be sitting idle for eight hours (it's 3 hours each way from the E coast of Oz to NZ), but Perth to NZ is about seven hours each way, so it's a much more expensive undertaking, Perth to NZ and back to Perth would take about 16 hours for an A340 (7 each way + 2 hours ground time). Can't see it happening. Sydney to Los Angeles on EK will happen first (I'm sure EK have RTW ambitions).
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RE: NZ Call EK A Parasite

Sun Feb 27, 2005 8:21 pm

Quoting Cedarjet (reply 33):
Perth won't happen.

I do remember reading in Australian Aviation that EK had every intention of flying PER-AKL and were also considering AKL-LAX. EK were also planning on making AKL a mini hub
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RE: NZ Call EK A Parasite

Sun Feb 27, 2005 9:09 pm

i heard that EK were just going to be using 777's into akl, Nothing about perth tho, this market is getting so small!!
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RE: NZ Call EK A Parasite

Sun Feb 27, 2005 11:18 pm

It will indeed be 777-300 for the second syd-akl EK service. But i would not be surprised if the 340-500 then goes SYD-CHC, just like the second MEL service on the 340-500. But EK will not be going twice daily to New Zealand from SYD until the 2nd service is daily into SYD, (which is not for awhile). EK has gone very quiet on PER-AKL route... was told not in the forseeable future! But EK is meant to be going twice daily to PER soon, so I guess anything could be possible! As for an EK hub outside of the UAE, I doubt this will happen, as they would then have to comply with labour laws, unions etc which they dont have in Dubai!!! (Makes life very easy for them!!!!)
 
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RE: NZ Call EK A Parasite

Mon Feb 28, 2005 8:06 am

Quoting Zkojh (reply 35):
i heard that EK were just going to be using 777's into akl

When EK decide to start PER-AKL then a B777 will operate the flight instead. Oh well no A343 pics then
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RE: NZ Call EK A Parasite

Mon Feb 28, 2005 9:04 am

777ER-On one of the other posts some guy with a user name horus (Eygpt) said there was a rumour that EK were looking at WLG with a A332! this was a while ago.
 
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RE: NZ Call EK A Parasite

Mon Feb 28, 2005 9:08 am

Quoting RichardJF (reply 38):
777ER-On one of the other posts some guy with a user name horus (Eygpt) said there was a rumour that EK were looking at WLG with a A332!

Holy crap that would really make my day. Which airports in Aussie receive the A332?. An A332 can land at WLG fully laden as it happened last year
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RE: NZ Call EK A Parasite

Mon Feb 28, 2005 9:18 am

When I'm working at the airport on friday then I can try and find out about EK.
If EK are going to fly to WLG then it would be best if EK depart around 9am-12pm because from 2pm-4pm NZ, QF, SJ and DJ are all at the International gates.
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RE: NZ Call EK A Parasite

Mon Feb 28, 2005 4:47 pm

The talk from certain managers at AKL airport, is that EK have purchased a 15 acre piece of land to build an A check and Line Maintenance facility in the future. So I agree with the suggestion of a mini hub as well as AKL-LAX/SFO flights at some stage. I have since had the land purchase confirmed by an AKL EK employee. Fun times are ahead.

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RE: NZ Call EK A Parasite

Mon Feb 28, 2005 4:59 pm

Quoting NZ1 (reply 41):
since had the land purchase confirmed by an AKL EK employee

Wow looks like EK are keen on making New Zealand a big hub for their operations
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RE: NZ Call EK A Parasite

Tue Mar 01, 2005 6:52 am

[
Quoting NZ1 (reply 41):
is that EK have purchased a 15 acre piece of land to build an A check and Line Maintenance facility in the future.

In the same vein, where would AirNZ build their own terminal? West of the present International Terminal or East of the Maintenance facility?
It would be interesting to know what part of the annual cost of services purchased from the Airport Authority covers the use of the runways etc. and what part is applicable to the use of space in the Terminals?
 
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RE: NZ Call EK A Parasite

Tue Mar 01, 2005 6:57 am

Quoting Aerohottie (reply 0):
Ralph Norris described the behaviour of some of Air NZ's competitors on the route as "parasitic".


He should know, his company took over and bled to death one the world's great airlines, Ansett.
When all's said and done, there'll be more said than done.
 
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RE: NZ Call EK A Parasite

Tue Mar 01, 2005 7:44 am

Quoting OzGlobal (reply 44):
He should know, his company took over and bled to death one the world's great airlines, Ansett.

This is simply not correct. There was nothing to bleed; NewsCorp or whoever it was that owned the controlling block had already done that.
Ansett was in dreadful shape when AirNZ took it over primarily to satisfy the egos of a former Chairman and CEO, presumably doing minimal or no due diligence. AirNZ did not have deep enough pockets for what they ultimately found...period. Then you have insiders at Ansett feeding information to the authorities on their non-compliance with airworthiness standards that literally shut the carrier down . Sort of poetic justice I would say, put them out of a job and unfortunately all their colleagues as well.
 
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RE: NZ Call EK A Parasite

Tue Mar 01, 2005 7:54 am

My point was that Ansett might have been saved by a more responsible (and cashed-up) buyer than the then AirNZ.
When all's said and done, there'll be more said than done.
 
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RE: NZ Call EK A Parasite

Tue Mar 01, 2005 8:36 am

I think on balance if EK has a hub at AKL it is a advantage for NZ. More routes get developed to the Americas. AKL gets a greater share of Aust/NthAm traffic. NZ has it's own good opportunities, international longhaul has so much growth potential. Australian domestic is the opposite increasing capacity is awful for the existing players.
 
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RE: NZ Call EK A Parasite

Tue Mar 01, 2005 9:18 am

Quoting OzGlobal (reply 46):

I agree! SQ must have smiled when they reflect on what they avoided in not getting landed with Ansett. Of course they never got to the due diligence stage of the transaction.
They took a pretty good "haircut" on the write down of their shareholding in AirNZ so they did not totally avoid the fallout. There are some who will say it looked good on Dr. What-ever-his-name was , CEO of SQ at the time. Another big ego, apparently!
 
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RE: NZ Call EK A Parasite

Tue Mar 01, 2005 12:30 pm

I thought EK's plan from the start was so make AKL its second hub. For New Zealand pilots it is a great chance to make more money, and live in nz, than go work for airnz.

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