wjcandee
Posts: 5187
Joined: Mon Jun 05, 2000 12:50 am

Delta Cancels But Airtran Completes

Tue Mar 01, 2005 12:21 pm

Well, if I were trying to fly home from the holidays today to LGA or EWR, I would be wishing that I was on Airtran rather than Delta. Since a major meltdown a year or so ago, Delta seems to have made it their policy to pull the plug to NYC as the snow starts to fall when significant snowfall is forecast, whereas Airtran seems to try to persevere. There are costs and benefits to both strategies, of course. One other issue seems to be that Delta has many flight crews based in NYC, and many of them may start calling out with the inclement weather. It at least seems to me that when I fly Airtran from LGA, the crew flying with me is pretty much the crew that came in to LGA. This may be the thing that gives Airtran the ability to fly. As of 10pm, it looks like Airtran completed its entire ATL-LGA and ATL-EWR schedule today, with the exception of one flight to EWR. Delta, meanwhile, pulled the plug in the early afternoon, cancelling everything for the rest of the day. That has to hurt, especially as they were selling tix to LGA for well over $400 from Atlanta. So, the guy who was wise enough to purchase a confirmed, reserved Airtran biz class seat for $240 got to his destination pretty close to on-time despite the horrible storm here, whereas the poor soul who blew $400+ on a center seat in steerage on Delta didn't. Nothing like the legacy carrier making its LCC competition look like not just a better value, but just better.

Best,

Bill
(Who knows that the carrier he flies more often -- Delta --
could retort that it didn't want to risk stranding people, which
could have happened if the weather had been worse)

[Edited 2005-03-01 04:25:10]
 
SegmentKing
Posts: 3224
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RE: Delta Cancels But Airtran Completes

Tue Mar 01, 2005 12:34 pm

Bill,

can you drop me an email... ? for you..

-n
~ ~ ~ ~ pRoFeSsIoNaL hUrRiCaNe DoDgEr ~ ~ ~ ~
 
MD88Captain
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RE: Delta Cancels But Airtran Completes

Tue Mar 01, 2005 12:35 pm

Dear Bill,

I'm glad you made it to LGA. Really I am. The call on whether to pare the schedule or not based on forcast conditions is inexact. It is kind of "damned if you do and damned if you don't." Probably part of the reason you got there on time on Airtran was the reduced NYC volume from carriers who chose to cancel. I'm just glad I'm not the guy making the scheduling decisions.

In making the who flys in bad weather comparison, many Airtran passengers could complain about the terrible fog in ATL a week ago. DAL flew because they train to Cat III, while Airtran operations were greatly impacted by lack of Cat III training/capability.

Thanks
 
notdownnlocked
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RE: Delta Cancels But Airtran Completes

Tue Mar 01, 2005 12:36 pm

Are you an employee of FL or just trying to put bad press on DL? The same thing happened in ATL a few weeks ago during the ice storm where an FL employee stated the ATL airport was closed because FL cancelled all their flights and he assumed that because FL was grounded all were grounded. He stated this to the local press in ATL and he was live on TV. Needless to say later there were DL employees live too on TV stating that the airport was open and running at a lower capacity but not closed as the employee of FL had made all to believe.
 
NWAFA
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RE: Delta Cancels But Airtran Completes

Tue Mar 01, 2005 12:39 pm

Personally Delta did the proper and SAFE operation as AirTran did not. How much time did the crew have on them?

I would much rather have the flight cancelled than have a tired and worn out crew as the AirTran crew had to be.

It is called being SAFE instead of just keeping the flight operating!

Good Job Delta!
THANK YOU FOR FLYING NORTHWEST AIRLINES, WE TRULY APPRECIATE YOUR BUSINESS!
 
exusair
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RE: Delta Cancels But Airtran Completes

Tue Mar 01, 2005 12:42 pm

Glad to see nothing has changed at AirTran from just a few years ago when that jackass captain flew a DC-9 into a storm that almost ripped the radome off of the aircraft.

BTW as of this evening LGA was only accepting 10 arrivals per hour.
 
N1120A
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RE: Delta Cancels But Airtran Completes

Tue Mar 01, 2005 12:47 pm

Quoting NWAFA (reply 4):
Personally Delta did the proper and SAFE operation as AirTran did not. How much time did the crew have on them?

I would much rather have the flight cancelled than have a tired and worn out crew as the AirTran crew had to be.

It is called being SAFE instead of just keeping the flight operating!


Come on now NWAFA. For a long time I have admired the great comments about F/A work and flying you and the no longer with A.net Flyguyclt have made but lately you just seem to be as sour as some of the other members around here. You know that FL complies with FAA regulations and the crew was likely just running the same crew because that was part of their trip for the day. They likely were finishing the day with that trip but they were not flying tired or worn out, and certainly not flying illegally. They were being safe and were taking care of their customers
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
NWAFA
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RE: Delta Cancels But Airtran Completes

Tue Mar 01, 2005 12:53 pm

N1120A

With all due respect, it does sound like the AirTran crew was pushing the envelope. The smaller airlines, especially the small LCC's like AirTran want to push push push, with out thinking what the situation is.
THANK YOU FOR FLYING NORTHWEST AIRLINES, WE TRULY APPRECIATE YOUR BUSINESS!
 
GroundStop
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Joined: Thu Jun 12, 2003 12:48 am

RE: Delta Cancels But Airtran Completes

Tue Mar 01, 2005 1:25 pm

NWAFA,

Your assumptions regarding our crews are baseless. I have worked this entire afternoon from 1500 EST and I'll be here until 0100 EST. And by work, I mean as the Passenger Movement Coordinator, sitting next to the shift coordinator, all of the dispatchers, the ATC coordinator, Crew Scheduling, and MX Con trol. Let me walk you through my day:

I received my turnover at 1455 and it was something like this...'ATL has a 60+ min delay; PHL, LGA, and EWR have a 180+ minute delay each, and IAD and BWI are taking deicing delays...have a good one!' So, I strapped in and immediately went to work on the schedule. First thing I noticed, all of our ATL-LGA flights were packed to the gills, where the CAK-LGA and PHF-LGA flights were not. Solution? Whack the CAK and PHF flights, using their slot credits to run the ATL-LGA flights on schedule. On top of that, we were able to run extra sections from CAK and PHF to ATL allowing several pax with connections to get to ATL sooner than their originally scheduled flights wouldve allowed them too. LGA problem solved. EWR? Tough one. Three flights, each with a 4 hour delay and no repro from ATL to EWR for 3 days. By cancelling the first of the three, we ran the other two close to on schedule and rerouted affected pax to LGA tonight and tomorrow. EWR problem solved. Next up, PHL, the worst of the three. Right off the top, took out an ATL-PHL turn and ran the next roundtrip on a 73G to accomodate the pax. Took out a PBI-PHL and PHL-MCO turn. Ran the aircraft as 2002 from PBI to MCO, putting in position for the next day and getting the pax to MCO to catch a later MCO-PHL flight. Took out a PHL-BOS-PHL flight that was running 7 hours late...had no choice. Other than that, cancelled an IAD turn, a MEM turn, and an MSY turn that was the result of a runway light failure in MSY this evening. Every move we made was calculated with valid TAF's and RAMTAF's, all the crews were legal and fresh, and there is minimal effect on tomorrow's operation. As far as our crews MD88CAPTAIN?...CAT III. The 73G as an aircraft is not yet certified to CAT III standards but all the 717's are and damn near all the 717 Captains and F/O's are as well. Know what you are talking about before spouting off garbage. At no point during today's operation was safety of flight ever a concern. LGA, EWR, and PHL held above minimums all day, and every single flight we operated into each of these airports made it in without doing so much as one turn in holding. Oh, and I might add that the reason the ATL GDP was so excessive is Delta's great new ATL schedule. Its been acknowledged and questioned by every other airline flying into ATL thats involved in the daily ATC conference. Great for them, and crap for the rest of us.

JP

AirTran SOC
 
airtran737
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RE: Delta Cancels But Airtran Completes

Tue Mar 01, 2005 2:07 pm

Quoting NWAFA (reply 7):
With all due respect, it does sound like the AirTran crew was pushing the envelope. The smaller airlines, especially the small LCC's like AirTran want to push push push, with out thinking what the situation is.


Well done JP. I hate it when ignorant people try to explain how our airline functions. You guys do one hell of a job in MCO. I appreciate having the ability to call down there and be able to have everyone in SOC be open to suggestions as to how to help make our customers experience less hassle in a delay situation. It is very un-nerving to have people question the safety of our airline. If a pilot is going to go over his duty time, you can be damn sure that he is on the phone with crew scheduling to inform them that it is about to occur that way the can come up with a solution. Just because we fly our crews more than three legs a day doesn't make us unsafe. We utilize our crews to the best of our ability, and that is part of the reason that we are making money. Maybe the legacy carriers should take a lesson from the LCC's and that would help plug up the gaping wound that theye are bleeding cash from.
Nice Trip Report!!! Great Pics, thanks for posting!!!! B747Forever
 
wjcandee
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RE: Delta Cancels But Airtran Completes

Tue Mar 01, 2005 2:15 pm

MD88 Captain: I thought I was being balanced, and really just trying to observe the differences in judgment calls made by the two carriers. Perhaps my comment at the end reflects a little annoyance that the ATL-LGA Y fare, after coming way down off of $500 at the beginning of Simplifares into the mid-300s, has magically crept back up above $400, and the revenue management folks appear to have been trying to sell a lot more Y fares than they used to at similar apparent loads -- i.e. when I used to be able to get a Q fare. Of course, I understand that Simplifares are supposed to be revenue-neutral or positive, and I appreciate that Delta is hurting and needs the money. But it seems like one effect of Simplifares is to push the short-notice Delta fare up high enough over the competition that I really have to debate who to fly now on certain trips. In other words, is it worth a 75% premium (around $200) to fly on Delta when I'm travelling one-way on short notice? And that's comparing a coach seat on Delta, with the coin-toss of whether I get an upgrade off that Y-fare, against a confirmed biz class seat on Airtran. (My recent experience is that I'll get an upgrade on late-night and Saturday flights, but otherwise I can forget about it as Platinums on Q-or-lower fares sit up front while my Y fare gets me a seat in the rear and sometimes a center seat in the rear.) But that's my problem, not yours. My point was trying to be that today at least, the lower fare was the right choice.

Groundstop: Congratulations on a job well done. I also enjoyed hearing the details of your job.

NWAFA and others: I appreciate your concerns about safety, and I'm in no position to comment on which carrier runs a safer shop, if either, but I do note that more than one American Airlines flight landed in virtually every half-hour period all day through 9pm-ish, and that United and USAirways were also operating more than one flight an hour into LGA throughout the afternoon and evening. Those are all major legacy carriers, so I doubt that Delta was cancelling flights because it was unsafe to land, as opposed to being concerned that the storm would make it difficult to operate reliably.

Best,

Bill

[Edited 2005-03-01 06:17:58]
 
SHUPirate1
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RE: Delta Cancels But Airtran Completes

Tue Mar 01, 2005 2:25 pm

Wicandee-Who's to say, however, that those ATL-LGA flights weren't slammed with half-full loads (due to misconnects), whereas that CRJ coming from the point-to-point higher-yield markets into LGA and the Song 757's from Florida weren't packed to the gills?
Burma's constitutional referendum options: A. Yes, B. Go to Insein Prison!
 
jc2354
Posts: 601
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RE: Delta Cancels But Airtran Completes

Tue Mar 01, 2005 2:27 pm

I haven't seen a crew in 10 years that wasn't tired and worn out!!!
If not now, then when?
 
wjcandee
Posts: 5187
Joined: Mon Jun 05, 2000 12:50 am

RE: Delta Cancels But Airtran Completes

Tue Mar 01, 2005 2:34 pm

Shupirate1: I don't know about misconnects, but I do know that as of this morning, DL was effectively sold-out for most of the day from ATL-NYC, before the cancellations. Given that there was still a lot of traffic trying to get from Florida through ATL to the Northeast today, those pax had to go somewhere. Gonna be a busy Tuesday for our friends at DL. Indeed, the only flights to LGA tomorrow from ATL with seats (using an hourly schedule) are presently at 12:30, 4:30 and 7:30. And those look pretty full.

Best,

Bill
 
DeltaMIA
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Joined: Wed Feb 04, 2004 11:53 am

RE: Delta Cancels But Airtran Completes

Tue Mar 01, 2005 4:45 pm

1. Its a lot easier to use the word complete when you are talking about 3 flights. Delta on the other hand has to decide not only among hourly flights from ATL, BOS, DCA, but additional service from 15 other cities.

2. DL elected to cancel flights in an effort to prevent from stranding passengers. And it worked. By canceling the flights in advance (3pm) it allowed the passengers to stay at their origin and go to NY after the storm.

3. DL still operated more flights into LGA after 3pm than FL operated into LGA, EWR, and PHL combined. Just repeating it is a lot easier to complete a schedule when only dealing with a handful of flights.
It's a big building with patients, but that's not important right now.
 
N808DE
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Joined: Tue Feb 24, 2004 6:58 am

RE: Delta Cancels But Airtran Completes

Wed Mar 02, 2005 12:29 am

Wjcandee-
"otherwise I can forget about it as Platinums on Q-or-lower fares sit up front while my Y fare gets me a seat in the rear and sometimes a center seat in the rear"

Are you medallion? If so, your Y ticket automatically gets you an upgrade at booking. If you're not medallion, how would you expect an upgrade on that fare anyways? Just wondering...

As for myself, I usually always book Y/B/M fares and only pick flights that will upgrade me at the time of booking -- I avoid "waitlist" ones as much as possible.

N808DE
 
Falcon84
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Joined: Fri Sep 10, 2004 11:52 am

RE: Delta Cancels But Airtran Completes

Wed Mar 02, 2005 12:36 am

I hint a little DL bashing here. The author makes it sound like that DL was somehow cavalier in cancelling flights. Airlines have to go on forcast, and if that forcast in NYC is for major weather, they have to pre-cancel some flights, so that 1. They don't get crews/planes stranded in the bad weather, and 2. So that they can minimize the effect on the rest of the operation.

It could be DL cancelled, for example, and just for example, a ATL-EWR run, because if they ran it, and didnt get the plane back out of EWR, they might have to cancel 3 or 4 or 5 downline segments out of ATL and beyond. This minimizing of delays/cancellations is prudent, especially for larger hubs. FL may have that to a degree in ATL, but nowhere to the degree DL does. So DL is just being prudent and forward-looking when they cancel, to impact as few customers as possible, and as few flights out of ATL as possible.

I can't say, as NWAFA did, that FL is "pushing the envelope" on anything. Each carrier has to make their own decisions. Out of CLE yesterday, CO flew all but 4 of a scheduled 15 trips into NYC. That was our decison. FL made theirs, and DL made theres. All were made on how much/little such cancellations would impact each of their operations.
Work Right, Fly Hard
 
GroundStop
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RE: Delta Cancels But Airtran Completes

Wed Mar 02, 2005 12:48 am

"DL still operated more flights into LGA after 3pm than FL operated into LGA, EWR, and PHL combined."

Care to back that statement up with fact? My method is by no means scientific, however I just did a quick check of Delta's flights yesterday to LGA from ATL, BOS, CVG, DCA, FLL, GSO, and MCO after 1500. Granted, there are other cities they could have operated from but seeing as how they operated ZERO flights from any of the 7 markets I just mentioned, I'm thinking your claim is dead wrong. After 1500, we operated 5 ATL-LGA flights, 2 ATL-EWR flights, 2 ATL-PHL flights, 2 MCO-PHL flights, a FLL-PHL flight, a BOS-PHL flight, and TPA-PHL flight.

"DL elected to cancel flights in an effort to prevent from stranding passengers"

Because passengers who flew to ATL from GTR, or MSY, SHV, etc. to connect on to LGA aren't considered stranded if they are stuck in ATL? I highly doubt there weren't several hundred inbound pax to ATL in the air already when this plan was enacted.

"Its a lot easier to use the word complete when you are talking about 3 flights"

A valid point that I will concede. But without operating at least a handful of flights, aren't there several crews out of position, not to mention very few EMO aircraft this morning? The flights we cancelled were done in a manner that allowed us to have full crew staffing this morninng, and we only had to cancel on flight today from PHF to ATL.

JP
 
Falcon84
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RE: Delta Cancels But Airtran Completes

Wed Mar 02, 2005 12:53 am

Because passengers who flew to ATL from GTR, or MSY, SHV, etc. to connect on to LGA aren't considered stranded if they are stuck in ATL?

Duh, you ARE going to get some stranded pax during weather, no matter what. But if you have aircraft, 10 or 15 of them, stuck in the snow in NYC, you're going to strand a hell of a lot more, aren't you? That's because you won't have the aircraft necessary to move people downline of ATL on some routes. Better to cut the flights into NYC and preserve as much of the rest of the operation as possible, and to isolate the difficulty, than to compound it by flying planes up there and maybe not getting them back for a day or so.
Work Right, Fly Hard
 
Thucydides
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RE: Delta Cancels But Airtran Completes

Wed Mar 02, 2005 12:58 am

The fact is the forecasts for the entire Northeast were for a potentially far worse storm, so if flights were cancelled early in anticipation of a heavier storm, I really can't blame DL for being prudent. As several posters have pointed out, DL had a much larger flight load in the region than FL, and the ripples to their system could have been much worse if planes were snowed in up North.

Here in DC, we were told to expect 6-10 inches of snow. In reality we ended up getting only a couple of inches of heavy, wet snow, and the temps never really dipped below freezing. Yet the forecast led school officials to cancel classes, which looked really funny come 4 in the afternoon when the streets were still clear. But change the track of the storm slightly, and it could have been a whole different story. I see that NYC got between 5-8 inches, which for them should not be too bad, but remember, some of the worst blizzards of late have hit in March, and this storm had the potential to be such a blizzard.
 
flyinryan99
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RE: Delta Cancels But Airtran Completes

Wed Mar 02, 2005 1:13 am

Flyinryan99: Groundstop - Are there any more positions open there in Pax planning for FL? I have tried to apply for other positions there in Dx but haven't gotten anywhere. I would've loved to have something that fast paced and decision making. Give me an email flyinryan99@yahoo.com so we can chat. I miss what's going on at FL. Great job JP!

Ryan
 
IAHERJ
Posts: 527
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RE: Delta Cancels But Airtran Completes

Wed Mar 02, 2005 1:45 am

MD88 Captain,

I was unaware we did not train our crews to CAT III standards. I guess I'm in trouble for making all those CAT III landings a few weeks ago in ATL.

Please, I promise not to comment incorrectly on issues regarding Delta if you promise to do the same. All 717's are CAT III and the 737's are right behind us.



IAHERJ
717 fo

[Edited 2005-03-01 17:53:44]
Actually flown: EMB-120 EMB-145 B717 B737 B757 B767
 
UPS Pilot
Posts: 829
Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 1:17 pm

RE: Delta Cancels But Airtran Completes

Wed Mar 02, 2005 2:08 am

I'm still waiting to find the accident report from my girlfreinds fiasco with Delta. During the ice storm pilot returned to gate claiming the deicing truck struck the plane. Delta ops were in chaos. Delta ended up putting her on an Airtran flight the following day. They had quite a few hours but failed to transfer her luggage.
Delta isn't like it use to be.
 
wjcandee
Posts: 5187
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RE: Delta Cancels But Airtran Completes

Wed Mar 02, 2005 3:37 am

It would be interesting to see if an actual Delta person with actual knowledge could respond to my initial query as to whether the weather issue is a result, in part, of the fact that DL uses NYC-based f/a crews on some of the ATL-bound flights, and that there was a major meltdown up here a year or so ago when they couldn't staff the a/c during a storm. The planes were here. The airport was open. The passengers, ground help, etc. were ready to go, but they didn't have the staff. That's my recollection, and ever since then, it seems like there are a lot of en-masse canx of the ATL flights when it snows here. But that's an *impression*, which was one reason that I started this thread -- to get actual information.

To imply that I am "bashing" Delta is absurd. Only on this board could you see so many accusations, excuses, non-responsive answers and finger-pointing in response to a simple operational query: Did they cancel virtually every flight to NYC after 3pm because they were worried about stranding aircraft because of *staffing* or instead for some other reason?

The fact is that somebody made a judgment call (or didn't and just followed a prearranged plan) which resulted in a markedly-different experience for Airtran travellers (and, for that matter, JetBlue travellers) as compared to Delta travellers on a very important post-Holiday Monday in which Delta was packed to the gills with folks returning to EWR, LGA, JFK and BOS from the Southeast. Those who chose Delta were markedly inconvenienced, which is not consistent with Delta's reputation. Those who chose the budget carriers by and large got home on or pretty close to schedule.

When people in operations make judgment calls, they will then either look brilliant or not brilliant, and factors beyond their control are going to affect which way they look. The storm came in on the high end of the average prediction -- it was pretty much as expected as far as Manhattan was concerned -- so it's not like there were dire predictions which then didn't materialize. Also, I would think that one had at least some ability to play things by ear and respond as things developed, although I realize that it's something like steering an ocean liner -- you have to make decisions NOW that will actually result in a course change singificantly down the line.

However -- and this was the point in bringing all this up in the first place -- if Delta now has a policy that says that under similar circumstances in the future, it is going to just cancel all flights to LGA and EWR for the rest of the day, that's important information for a business traveller to know when making his or her last-minute flight choices.

All the best,

Bill

PS N808DE: Of course I'm Medallion. I'm glad that you have the ability to plan so far in advance. My business and schedule don't permit that, usually. And I assure you that it is not an infrequent occurrance nowadays to find that you can buy a Y seat from ATL-NYC and not be offered an automatic upgrade. Why? The Platinum on the Q fare took that seat 4 or 3 or 2 days earlier when he booked.
 
ltbewr
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RE: Delta Cancels But Airtran Completes

Wed Mar 02, 2005 3:58 am

Some thought as to the ops of DL vs. FL. Per GroundStop's post, I would suggest that FL may have more flexibility as to their work rules as to flight staff and to reroute, reassign or cancel flights than DL. This storm was mainly on a Monday and not on a peak holiday time, like close to President's weekend or closer to Easter, or College spring breaks, so demand while good wasn't at a peak level. There was plenty of warning of this storm, so probably many potential pax cancelled or changed their flights for another day, thus freeing up space on FL's flights to place rerouted customers.
 
DAYflyer
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RE: Delta Cancels But Airtran Completes

Wed Mar 02, 2005 4:06 am

Quoting MD88Captain (reply 2):
Probably part of the reason you got there on time on Airtran was the reduced NYC volume from carriers who chose to cancel. I'm just glad I'm not the guy making the scheduling decisions.


An ignorant question: Does not the pilot make the final decision based on wether a flight goes or not based on these and other factors?
One Nation Under God
 
GroundStop
Posts: 607
Joined: Thu Jun 12, 2003 12:48 am

RE: Delta Cancels But Airtran Completes

Wed Mar 02, 2005 5:57 am

DAYFlyer,

That's not an ignorant question at all. The Captain and the dispatcher both have to be in agreement before a flight can depart. If either one says no, the flight doesn't go.

LTBEWR,

That is a definite possibility. Although, our time to notify crews of reroutes after cancellations is very short...to the tune of 30 minutes. Beyond that, they are released. So whatever plan we come up with, we have 30 minutes to make sure the aircraft routing will work, the crews will be legal, and the station can accomodate the pax.

JP
 
DeltaMIA
Posts: 1622
Joined: Wed Feb 04, 2004 11:53 am

RE: Delta Cancels But Airtran Completes

Wed Mar 02, 2005 6:04 am

Quoting GroundStop (reply 17):
Because passengers who flew to ATL from GTR, or MSY, SHV, etc. to connect on to LGA aren't considered stranded if they are stuck in ATL?


Not if the flights are canceled prior to them leaving those upline cities. While there were passengers stranded you are only talking about a small percentage of passengers slated to go at 3:30pm, 4:30pm as well as international and west coast travelers (roughly 200 or so). However by canceling the flights early it saved about 2000 travelers from going to ATL to discover their flights have been canceled.


Quoting GroundStop (reply 17):
Care to back that statement up with fact?


After 3pm into LGA DL had one arrival from CMH, YUL, FLL, CHS, RIC, CAE. They had two arrivals from CVG, ATL, CLT, RDU. There were three arrivals from BOS (including the last shuttle flight) and DCA. Albeit some of these flights were delayed from earlier in the day.
At PHL there were 2 flights from SLC, 5 from ATL, 1 from JFK and CVG all arriving after 3pm.
At EWR there were 3 evening arrivals from ATL and 1 each from CVG and MCO.
At JFK DL nearly operated a complete schedule which included some 27 flights arriving in the evening.
It's a big building with patients, but that's not important right now.
 
GroundStop
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Joined: Thu Jun 12, 2003 12:48 am

RE: Delta Cancels But Airtran Completes

Wed Mar 02, 2005 6:20 am

DeltaMIA,

Thanks for clarifying, works for me. A side question for you...do the connection carriers have autonomy in their decision making as far as operating flights. 1) Are their Ops Specs different? and 2) Does big brother dictate which flights go or don't go? Thanks.

JP
 
syncmaster
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RE: Delta Cancels But Airtran Completes

Wed Mar 02, 2005 7:05 am

Quoting NWAFA (reply 4):
Personally Delta did the proper and SAFE operation as AirTran did not.


I could not agree more...
 
DeltaMIA
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RE: Delta Cancels But Airtran Completes

Wed Mar 02, 2005 7:05 am

Quoting GroundStop (reply 28):
1) Are their Ops Specs different? and 2) Does big brother dictate which flights go or don't go? Thanks


Yes they are different. OH and EV make their own decisions, but DL does provide feedback and suggestions.
This may change though because EV really hurt themselves during the Winter Ice storm by not canceling flights until the last minute and then some even though DL suggested to EV to go ahead and cancel flights along with them. You can imagine the harm this did to passengers and frontline agents as there are a lot of routes which see both mainline and EV service. OH went along with DL and canceled at the same time.
It's a big building with patients, but that's not important right now.
 
GroundStop
Posts: 607
Joined: Thu Jun 12, 2003 12:48 am

RE: Delta Cancels But Airtran Completes

Wed Mar 02, 2005 7:18 am

Yes, I can imagine that would be a problem. Before moving down to SOC, I worked in the C-Tower for FL across from the EV guys. I'm not even sure you could describe their setup as organized chaos. lol.

"Personally Delta did the proper and SAFE operation as AirTran did not.


I could not agree more..."

Even the Delta employees that have responded to this thread claim the cancellations were an attempt to keep passengers from being inconvenienced, not a matter of safety. Safety of flight was at no point a concern. Just looking at the METAR data for the past 36 hours at LGA. The RVR on Runway 22 was never less than 4000 feet and the ceiling was never less then BKN005. If the airport was below minimums, we would have diverted, simple as that.
 
DeltaMIA
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RE: Delta Cancels But Airtran Completes

Wed Mar 02, 2005 7:28 am

Quoting GroundStop (reply 31):
Safety of flight was at no point a concern


Correct.
Even DL operated flights into LGA as late as 2200. What DL could not do was operate all of their flights. And rather than have 1500 people go to ATL to try and get on one 200 seat aircraft it was easier and less inconvenient to close down shop and reaccomadate the next day or the day after.
It's a big building with patients, but that's not important right now.
 
GroundStop
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RE: Delta Cancels But Airtran Completes

Wed Mar 02, 2005 8:07 am

The more I've read this and thought about it today, I've realized something. The people that consider FL's operation a safety concern have no direct input or idea of the complexities, legalities, and thought process behind running an airline. Two are flight attendants (of which my girlfriend is one, so I do have tremendous respect for the work you do), and another is 16 to 20. That being said, there really is no right or wrong approach. Delta's operation is infintitely more complex than ours. They did what they thought was right or their passengers, as did we. There were benefits and drawbacks to both strategies, hopefully more of the former for both DL and FL. Thanks to the Delta employees, particularly DeltaMIA, and the rest of the folks on here who made reasonable and non-biased posts.

JP

AirTran SOC
 
gothamspotter
Posts: 311
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RE: Delta Cancels But Airtran Completes

Wed Mar 02, 2005 12:35 pm

Despite originally being forecast to be a "superstorm", if I'm not mistaken the flight conditions and delays at LGA during Thursday's "minor" storm were actually worse, with 700ft ceilings compared to 1100ft Monday...though winds were stronger Monday. Of course I wasn't monitoring the conditions nonstop either day so if anyone knows better please respond.

My friend was flying FLL-ORD-LGA on United this past Thursday. She ended up missing the flight to ORD due to a hangup with TSA, so they routed her through IAD (though her bags were already enroute and they didn't bother removing them). Her connecting flight at IAD, however, was cancelled due to the snow. She got in the standby queue for the next (and last) United IAD-LGA flight, but it didn't look like she would make it...so I got her an IAD-JFK flight on a flyi CRJ. It was delayed about 90 minutes waiting for connecting pax, but flyi seems to have completed their schedule on Thursday, unlike any of the legacies.

(P.S.: The last minute flyi IAD-JFK ticket cost $100 + tax, while the original Ted/United FLL-ORD-LGA ticket, also purchased last minute, cost only $60 + tax! No wonder United is in trouble.)

[Edited 2005-03-02 04:38:12]
 
JetSOUTHEAST
Posts: 178
Joined: Tue Oct 10, 2000 5:44 am

RE: Delta Cancels But Airtran Completes

Wed Mar 02, 2005 4:32 pm

Money Money Money, it's all about money. It seems AirTran is really pushing their lower paid pilots to fly more flights in nastier weather, not good. Money is not everything. I would rather loose money than loose a plane.
 
RDUDDJI
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Joined: Fri Jun 04, 2004 4:42 am

RE: Delta Cancels But Airtran Completes

Wed Mar 02, 2005 5:01 pm

It sounds to me like FL ran a fine operation all things considered. Personally I didn't realize that FL pilots/aircraft were CAT III cert. until about last week when ATL was whacked out. I filtered ATL arrivals on A.S.D. and was suprised to see TRS getting in there with DAL.

IMO- DAL seems to always be quick to "blanket cancel" during Irregular Ops. In this case I think they were too quick.

GroundStop, it sound like you and I have the same job, different airlines. I loved your explanation of events in your first post. There's always lovers and haters on these boards and in between sometimes people actually post relevant material. Welcome to my RU list.

Quoting GroundStop (reply 8):
'ATL has a 60+ min delay; PHL, LGA, and EWR have a 180+ minute delay each, and IAD and BWI are taking deicing delays...have a good one!


Sounds EXACTLY like our AM to PM shift passdown from Monday!
Sometimes we don't realize the good times when we're in them
 
DeltaMIA
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RE: Delta Cancels But Airtran Completes

Wed Mar 02, 2005 5:03 pm

Quoting JetSOUTHEAST (reply 35):
It seems AirTran is really pushing their lower paid pilots to fly more flights in nastier weather


Just to clarify safety was never a concern. Airlines were forced to cancel due to restraints created by Air Traffic Control.
It's a big building with patients, but that's not important right now.
 
GroundStop
Posts: 607
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RE: Delta Cancels But Airtran Completes

Wed Mar 02, 2005 11:26 pm

RDUDDJI,

Thanks! At least night (Tuesday) wasn't quite as bad. The northeast is clearing out and ATL looks good for a few days (at least the rest of my week!) I'd be interested in talking with you further. I'd like to have an understanding of how my counterparts at other carriers do their jobs. If you get a chance, send me an e-mail to: James.Patterson@airtran.com.

JP

AirTran SOC
 
stlgph
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RE: Delta Cancels But Airtran Completes

Thu Mar 03, 2005 12:54 am

Quoting JetSOUTHEAST (reply 35):
Money is not everything. I would rather loose money than loose a plane


Tell that to the public school systems shopping around for new english textbooks.


Groundstop---fantastic post. I like both Delta and both AirTran. Either or, dispatching an airline is not easy. If AirTran made it through this time, well next time it will be Delta who will complete their schedule and AirTran will have problems. Don't be so quick to bash kiddies.
if assumptions could fly, airliners.net would be the world's busiest airport

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