Paul
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What Does The 787 Offer?

Thu Mar 03, 2005 4:31 am

The 787 has sort of been outshadowed by the coming of the big A380. I was wondering what is the 787 offering that the 777LR cannot cater for? I know it is called a dreamliner but what does that mean? Better seats, nicer interior, more space, etc?

Thanks

Paul
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7e72004
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RE: What Does The 787 Offer?

Thu Mar 03, 2005 4:38 am

For one thing, bigger windows  Big grin
The next generation of aircraft is just around the corner!
 
hz747300
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RE: What Does The 787 Offer?

Thu Mar 03, 2005 4:40 am

Bigger windows for passengers to start. Moving along, it is lighter, saves on landing when based on aircraft weight--helps airlines in the Asian markets. Planned fuel burn is more efficient too. The interior (more space, nicer seats, etc...) is up to the airline, so that is nothing Boeing would offer.

An example is Ryanair ordering 738s without seat pockets, tray tables, and window shades and reclining seats. That's not anything Boeing pitched to them, it is what the airline requested.
Keep on truckin'...
 
Paul
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RE: What Does The 787 Offer?

Thu Mar 03, 2005 4:59 am

Thanks for the info.

Interesting about Ryanair, it just shows what a bunch of cheap scheeming bastards RyanAir are really.
Veni, vidi, vici.
 
Newark777
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RE: What Does The 787 Offer?

Thu Mar 03, 2005 5:03 am

Quoting Paul (reply 0):
The 787 has sort of been outshadowed by the coming of the big A380


I wouldn't say the A380 is outshadowing the 787, since they are in very different levels of development. While the A380 is about to fly for the first time, the 787 is still being designed. The 787 will have its day too, it's just that the A380 is that much closer to going into service.

Harry
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RobK
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RE: What Does The 787 Offer?

Thu Mar 03, 2005 5:04 am

What does the 787 offer?

The chance for someone to start yet another new thread about it .................  Insane  Big thumbs up

Cheers,

Rob K  Wink/being sarcastic
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: What Does The 787 Offer?

Thu Mar 03, 2005 5:07 am

C-market range, combined with less-than-200 seats and operational costs less than a 767.

The 777 family cannot match the combination of those attributes.
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scbriml
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RE: What Does The 787 Offer?

Thu Mar 03, 2005 5:41 am

Quoting ConcordeBoy (reply 6):
combined with less-than-200 seats


All three variants of the 787 easily seat more than 200 pax.  Big grin
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
 
milan320
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RE: What Does The 787 Offer?

Thu Mar 03, 2005 5:56 am

Quoting HZ747300 (reply 2):
Bigger windows for passengers to start.



Come on, though, bigger windows cannot be a major selling point, unless for the few (in relation to the millions who fly) that actually care about it.
Most of the time the FAs will tell you to pull-down your window shade, and there goes the bigger-window feature.
Besides, how many people stare out the window constantly. I think the bigger window is not too relavant.

/Milan320
I accept bribes ... :-)
 
stirling
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RE: What Does The 787 Offer?

Thu Mar 03, 2005 6:12 am

Quoting Paul (reply 3):
Interesting about Ryanair, it just shows what a bunch of cheap scheeming bastards RyanAir are really.


And how is that?
Because they are thrifty and don't waste their time on non-revenue producing elements that result in negative passenger value and corporate profitability?..(look at my username, as a thrifty Scotsman, I appreciate their attention to details the others have overlooked.)
Protecting my hard-earned Euro (or Pound what have you), that makes them cheap scheming bastards?
Is it because Ryanair doesn't make people pay for things they don't need, or care about?
Because now a family of five can fly for what was once the price of just ONE ticket, well yes, I guess that would make them cheap, but certainly not bastards!?
Is it because Ryanair has brought a value benchmark to European Commercial Aviation? Because they are to commercial aviation, what the automobile was to the horse and buggy?
The world is ever-changing, but amazingly, it's all the same, just the toys of our amusement are different.

Quoting Paul (reply 0):
The 787 has sort of been outshadowed by the coming of the big A380


Really? I can't remember the last time an A380 was ordered....while the 787 is steadily gaining orders, and will do so well into the future. Ethiopian, Icelandic, Air China, China Eastern, Shanghai, Hainan, Xiamen, JAL, Continental.....All in the last 3 months...
The A380 might very well be the Bentley of the skies, but most people I know drive Hondas and Fords.

Paul, I share your excitement over the A380; and while I too cannot wait to see, and ride her for the first time, let's not let our enthusiasm get in the way of the facts.
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hz747300
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RE: What Does The 787 Offer?

Thu Mar 03, 2005 6:14 am

From Milan320:

Quoting HZ747300 (reply 2):
Bigger windows for passengers to start.

Come on, though, bigger windows cannot be a major selling point, unless for the few (in relation to the millions who fly) that actually care about it.
Most of the time the FAs will tell you to pull-down your window shade, and there goes the bigger-window feature.
Besides, how many people stare out the window constantly. I think the bigger window is not too relavant.

/Milan320


As an A.Net'er bigger windows means the world to me... I threw more things in there, and probably left out a bunch of stuff that might even be more relevant.
Keep on truckin'...
 
DAYflyer
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RE: What Does The 787 Offer?

Thu Mar 03, 2005 6:20 am

Quoting ConcordeBoy (reply 6):
C-market range, combined with less-than-200 seats and operational costs less than a 767.

The 777 family cannot match the combination of those attributes.


Indeed, plus is cost substantially less than a 777 to buy per airframe at list prices.
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Paul
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RE: What Does The 787 Offer?

Thu Mar 03, 2005 8:34 am

Quoting; Stirling

"Because they are thrifty and don't waste their time on non-revenue producing elements that result in negative passenger value and corporate profitability"

Stirling the reason for my disliking of Ryan Air is not because they have made a lot of money, but the way in which they had made it (at the expense of the customers). False/ miss- leading price advertising, charging disabled passenger for wheelchairs, charging for luggage. In addition to cost cutting measures that include; through not putting shutters on the windows, having non- reclining seats, no tray tables or seat pockets, what's next no overhead bins?!

All of these cost saving measures are not reflected in their prices. I mean they can hardly get lower, initially. I hardly think that being "Thrifty" is offering an even less comfortable service by not having a reclining seat, when ones seat pitch is what a measly (30inches).

I bet if you did a survey and asked the general travelling public whether they would prefer or not to have a reclining seat, the results would be overwhelmingly clear. Especially when the fare would not be any cheaper!
Do you really think that having a non reclining seat contributes to negative customer value????

Quoting; Sterling

"Because now a family of five can fly for what was once the price of just ONE ticket, well yes, I guess that would make them cheap."

Do you actually know how many families can fly for the price of one ticket, on the same flight? No more than 1 or 2. And this is because when people see a cheap fare for what will turn out to be roughly £40/50 return to anywhere in Europe, they all try and get it. Needless to say that the cheap fare only applies to the first dozen or so customers who get lured in by the cheap fare. So don't kid yourself they are not as great as you think! RyanAir rip- off customers, how else do you think they have become so successful, fair trade, I think not!
Veni, vidi, vici.
 
Areopagus
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RE: What Does The 787 Offer?

Thu Mar 03, 2005 9:40 am

Quoting Milan320 (reply 8):
Besides, how many people stare out the window constantly.

I do. That's good enough for me. A 737's window top is about even with my chin, so I have to duck and crane my neck to see out. My neck is sore from this during and after a flight.

Another value of the 787 is increased cargo capacity (compared to 767 and 330), both in the lower hold, and on the main deck, when it is made into a freighter.

The 787 will provide wider seats than the 330, and more vertical walls at armrest & eye levels.
 
UAL-Fan
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RE: What Does The 787 Offer?

Thu Mar 03, 2005 10:25 am

Last I heard there were to be no window shades.....some sort of electronic shade I think..
 
DfwRevolution
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RE: What Does The 787 Offer?

Thu Mar 03, 2005 10:43 am

Quoting Scbriml (reply 7):
All three variants of the 787 easily seat more than 200 pax


In many configurations, subtract about 30 seats from what Boeing advertises. The configurations advertised by Boeing and Airbus must straddle between premium configurations and high density configurations....

For example, many 777 carriers opperate at about 225-250 seats.

Quoting Paul (reply 0):
I was wondering what is the 787 offering that the 777LR cannot cater for? I know it is called a dreamliner but what does that mean? Better seats, nicer interior, more space, etc?


- Very low opperating cost
- Ability to serve new markets with combination of small capacity/long range
- Greater revenue potential (i.e. more cargo)
- Reduced maintenance (36 month maintenance cycle)
- "Open Architechture" systems
- Improved passenger comfort integrated into airframe
 
MidnightMike
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RE: What Does The 787 Offer?

Thu Mar 03, 2005 10:49 am

Fuel efficient
Bleedless engines
Dual HUDS in the cockpit
Electric Heating blankets rather than using the traditional anti-ice system.
Increased use of composites and new way of joining the aircraft saving time when building the aircraft.
Electric sensors placed all over the aircraft to better advise the MX crew what is wrong with the aircraft.

New Passenger comforts such as:
Larger Windows (40% bigger)
Larger Overhead bins
Wide cabin
Fresh air, rather than recycled air
Higher ceiling
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co7772wuh
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RE: What Does The 787 Offer?

Thu Mar 03, 2005 11:02 am

The 787 sounds very impressive . How will Airbus counter the 787's new technology ?

Also , will the wings on the 787 be all composite ?
 
wagz
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RE: What Does The 787 Offer?

Thu Mar 03, 2005 12:04 pm

It seems like some people keep trying to compare the 787 to the 772LR. Both do boast a substantial range, but are completely differant categories of aircraft.

The 787 is meant as a 767 replacement, therefore seating in the 200-250 pax range. The 787-8 would have substantially higher range than that of the B763, while also more fuel efficient. It also boats all the technologies others have covered above.

The B772LR fits the 300 pax range.

Quoting Co7772wuh (reply 17):
The 787 sounds very impressive . How will Airbus counter the 787's new technology ?


Airbus is developing the A350, which at this point is nothing more than an A330 with bleedless engines (according to artist's renderings). It is still early in development so we'll see what becomes of that program.
I think Big Foot is blurry, Its not the photographers fault. Theres a large out of focus monster roaming the countryside
 
DfwRevolution
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RE: What Does The 787 Offer?

Thu Mar 03, 2005 12:06 pm

Quoting Co7772wuh (reply 17):
The 787 sounds very impressive . How will Airbus counter the 787's new technology ?


The Airbus A350 incorperates some of the 787's new technology into the A330 architecture. The A350 will feature a (new) composite wing, extensive use of weight reducing materials like GLARE, 787-like engines, ect. The aircraft isn't well defined, so it's hard to say how it will stack-up against the 787.

In one sense, you could argue that because the 787 is a clean-sheet design while the A350 is only an upgrade, the 787 will be superior, but there have been some very successful upgrades in the past...

Quoting Co7772wuh (reply 17):
Also , will the wings on the 787 be all composite ?


Not 100% composite, but a large percentage of the skin and structure will be composite. I believe the leading edge is aluminum-

http://www.speednews.com/7E7MAT/7E7.jpg
 
gigneil
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RE: What Does The 787 Offer?

Thu Mar 03, 2005 1:14 pm

Quoting Co7772wuh (reply 17):
Also , will the wings on the 787 be all composite ?


Not ALL, but primarily.

There will still be metal spars, if I'm not mistaken.

N
 
N1120A
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RE: What Does The 787 Offer?

Thu Mar 03, 2005 1:27 pm

Quoting Scbriml (reply 7):
All three variants of the 787 easily seat more than 200 pax.


A very easy way to tell how many it will seat is to look at how carriers configure 763s and 764s. If they are in a 2 class, intercontinental configuration, A 788 will take about 230 people and a 789 could do 260-270. In an intercontinental 3 class, the 788 will likely check in around 200 seats, plus or minus and the 789 will be around 230-250. The 2 class, high density 783 (or 788) would check in around 260-280

Quoting Wagz (reply 18):
The B772LR fits the 300 pax range.


For all intents and purposes, it will likely never carry more than 230-240
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
N200WN
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RE: What Does The 787 Offer?

Thu Mar 03, 2005 2:53 pm

Quoting Paul (Reply 12):
RyanAir rip- off customers, how else do you think they have become so successful, fair trade, I think not!

I find it hard to believe that RyanAir "have become so successful" by intentionally, routinely, and consistently ripping people off. They must be offering a service that a lot of people find of value.

Just curious Paul, I see that in your profile you are a student and hope to work in Marketing for one of the airlines someday. If RyanAir were the only airline hiring when your graduate would you apply? Would you take such a position? Perhaps you would be able to make some positive changes to the things you find so offensive about RyanAir. Would the lure of a stable job at a profitable airline be too good to pass up?
 
Ruscoe
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RE: What Does The 787 Offer?

Thu Mar 03, 2005 3:28 pm

Here are a few 787 features
1. all composite load bearing surfaces
2. All composite fuselage which mean
3. Higher pressure inside craft
4. Greater humidity
5. All Boeing figures based on 8 abreast but it can seat 9 abreast with A320 size seats
6, Much lighter weight
7. Bleedless engines which improves fuel efficiency
8. Bleedless engines mean almost no pneumatics abd a very limited hydraulic system saving complexity weight and cost
9.Most powered controls etc are electrically powered
10. No need for bleed air means APU can be simplere, lighter, cheaper
11. Different brand engines are interchangeable thus increasing aftermarket and trade in value, and making them far more attractive to lessors.
12.Bigger windows for open airy cabin feel with
13. No shades, will be electronically controlled by passengers or FA's
14. Increased time interval between major servicing
15. Composites much less prone to fatigue
16. New methods of manufacture which is the reason the 7e7 can be offered much cheaper than 777
17. Open architecture to make future upgrades and enhancements easier

And so on and so on. The 7e7 is much more of anadvance than just a composite fuselage.

Ruscoe
 
Boeing7E7
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RE: What Does The 787 Offer?

Thu Mar 03, 2005 3:39 pm

Quoting DfwRevolution (reply 19):
Not 100% composite, but a large percentage of the skin and structure will be composite. I believe the leading edge is aluminum-

http://www.speednews.com/7E7MAT/7E7.jpg


This is outdated a bit. Not even close on what final design is approaching.
 
Rj111
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RE: What Does The 787 Offer?

Thu Mar 03, 2005 9:25 pm

Really? I can't remember the last time an A380 was ordered

Where have you been? There was a 5 plane order one a month ago for China Southern, and a UPS one for ten a few weeks before.
 
mountain
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RE: What Does The 787 Offer?

Thu Mar 03, 2005 11:04 pm

Quoting Paul (reply 3):
Interesting about Ryanair, it just shows what a bunch of cheap scheeming bastards RyanAir are really.


Ryanair is not cheap. They are like Southwest. Set the expectations low and achieve them everytime.
 
siggi757
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RE: What Does The 787 Offer?

Thu Mar 03, 2005 11:52 pm

Don't forget that in their effort to cut costs Ryanair treats their flightcrews in less than adequate way.

Interesting thread on pprune.com
http://www.pprune.com/forums/showthr...fceeeb9cf7bd66d741&threadid=165331
 
co7772wuh
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RE: What Does The 787 Offer?

Fri Mar 04, 2005 12:18 am

Quoting Ruscoe (reply 23):
Bleedless engines which improves fuel efficiency
8. Bleedless engines mean almost no pneumatics abd a very limited hydraulic system saving complexity weight and cost


So that's the significance of bleedless engines !!!
Boeing really seems to strive for simplicity .

Thanks for the info .
 
milan320
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RE: What Does The 787 Offer?

Fri Mar 04, 2005 1:19 am

Quoting HZ747300 (reply 10):
As an A.Net'er bigger windows means the world to me... I threw more things in there, and probably left out a bunch of stuff that might even be more relevant.


That may true even of all A.netters, but I'm sure Boeing didn't have A.netters in mind when they created the 787 with bigger windows. Most pax couldn't give a flying toss (excuse the pun) about bigger or smaller windows, as long as they get to their destination in one piece.

/Milan320
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B707Stu
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RE: What Does The 787 Offer?

Fri Mar 04, 2005 3:41 am

From what I'm seeing, and I'm not the technical expert type of airliner's member, the impact of the 787 will be to shrink the world to the next level. With it's ability to travel so far with a load factor that will appeal to city pairs that don't have the traffic for a T777 or even A340 or A380 for sure, it will have a tremendous impact on smaller cities capacities to "join the mainstream world." Think African cities that will access NYC non-stop or countries like Vietnam flying to the West Coast of the US. It will open up markets, society and economies.
 
N1120A
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RE: What Does The 787 Offer?

Fri Mar 04, 2005 3:43 am

Quoting B707Stu (reply 30):
countries like Vietnam flying to the West Coast of the US.


You would likely need a 772LR for that flight
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
gigneil
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RE: What Does The 787 Offer?

Fri Mar 04, 2005 4:05 am

I don't see any reason why you would. The 7E7-8 has more than sufficient range to fly SGN-LAX.

N
 
NDSchu777
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RE: What Does The 787 Offer?

Fri Mar 04, 2005 4:25 am

Airbus is developing the A350, which at this point is nothing more than an A330 with bleedless engines (according to artist's renderings).

Although the A350 will be using the same engines as on the 787, they will NOT be bleedless. The engines will have a modified configuration to allow air to be bled off into traditional systems aboard the aircraft as oppose to having large generators extract shaft power off of the engine gearbox like on the 787.

Airbus is doing more re-work than just strapping on the new engines to the A330 airframe (although that was Airbus's original plan and the airlines wouldn't buy that and wanted to see a more comprable improvement that they'd see on the 787). From what I've heard they will be re-designing the wing and be using more composites in the structure (although probably not as much as on the 787).

If anything, the launch of the A350 shows that Boeing had to put Airbus on the defensive with the 787 and invest a lot money and resources to try to protect the market share of the A330. I'm looking forward to seeing both the 787 and A350 continue to develop and take to the skies in the next few years.

Nick
 
lehpron
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RE: What Does The 787 Offer?

Fri Mar 04, 2005 6:43 am

Quoting HZ747300 (reply 2):
Bigger windows for passengers to start


It's 787's engines; the windows, the nose, the tail, the seats (if carriers keep them) are just cosmetic and are pretty much not necessary. They are just there for the prodominate reason to make th eplane look different. as of the nose and tail, I am sure there are advantages for them, just IMO it is the engines that make the plane possible.

From what I gather, 787 replaces 767/A330 type aircraft by delevering outrageous range for the same pax class. Boeing claims they recieved more orders of medium-sized long-range products like 767 when it frist came out and sales for their 747's at the time dipped. This led Boeing to figure their customers wanted frequency and point-to-point over capacity. Airbus' A380's are for customers that need capacity; banking on their venture, Boeing sees a giant market for 787's for anyone that doesn't need capacity.

I will gaurantee to you that just because 787 is so damn efficient, you will not recieve a cheaper fare. You fligth experience will have the luxury of big windows, weird seats, and cabin mood lighting -- maybe they want to crack down on air rage. Big grin
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