Orion737
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Why No Below Cabin Galleys On Modern Widebodies?

Thu Mar 03, 2005 8:54 am

I know the Tristar and DC10 had below deck galleys and I always thought what an innovative idea they were. Cabin crews appreciated the extra working space and it freed up more of the main cabin for seats.

Why therefore have neither Boeing or Airbus provided or offered a below deck galley on their long-haul aircraft?

Has any other aircraft other than the L1011 and DC10 had underfloor galleys?
 
Catatonic
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RE: Why No Below Cabin Galleys On Modern Widebodies?

Thu Mar 03, 2005 8:58 am

There are A330's with downstairs toilets......
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Horus
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RE: Why No Below Cabin Galleys On Modern Widebodie

Thu Mar 03, 2005 8:59 am

I think most airlines prefer to use the lower deck to carry as much cargo as possible rather than sacrifice the space for toilets and/or crew restrooms. I know that before BA quit KUL, they configured some of their B772ERs with lower deck crew restrooms (not sure if this is still the case now).

Horus

[Edited 2005-03-03 01:01:18]
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DfwRevolution
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RE: Why No Below Cabin Galleys On Modern Widebodies?

Thu Mar 03, 2005 8:59 am

If you can put revenue cargo down-below... then why waste the space with a gally? Same reason Boeing now offers an above-deck crew rest area, you want to maximize revenue area to the extreme.
I have a three post per topic limit. You're welcome to have the last word.
 
ACAfan
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RE: Why No Below Cabin Galleys On Modern Widebodies?

Thu Mar 03, 2005 9:02 am

What does the above deck crew rest area look like on the 777?
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Orion737
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RE: Why No Below Cabin Galleys On Modern Widebodies?

Thu Mar 03, 2005 9:05 am

The downstairs galleys were very popular on the DC10 and Tristar and moving some of the galley downstairs provided extra seating in the cabin = increased revenues!

I know some 330s had downstairs toilets but I wanted to know specifically about downstairs galleys accesible by lifts
 
DfwRevolution
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RE: Why No Below Cabin Galleys On Modern Widebodies?

Thu Mar 03, 2005 9:05 am

Quoting ACAfan (reply 4):
What does the above deck crew rest area look like on the 777?


Information here -

http://www.boeing.com/commercial/777family/osu/

I have a three post per topic limit. You're welcome to have the last word.
 
DeltaMIA
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RE: Why No Below Cabin Galleys On Modern Widebodies?

Thu Mar 03, 2005 9:09 am

Quoting Orion737 (reply 5):
The downstairs galleys were very popular on the DC10 and Tristar and moving some of the galley downstairs provided extra seating in the cabin


Actually they were a nightmare for flight crews. I know at DL there were very few F/A's that wanted to work the lower galleys on the L10.
It's a big building with patients, but that's not important right now.
 
ACAfan
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RE: Why No Below Cabin Galleys On Modern Widebodies?

Thu Mar 03, 2005 9:12 am

Thanks.

What's the ceiling height for the crew rest area?
Why not put passenger seats up there?
Freddie Laker ... May be at peace with his maker ... But he is a persona non grata ... with IATA
 
Orion737
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RE: Why No Below Cabin Galleys On Modern Widebodies?

Thu Mar 03, 2005 9:13 am

Hey stop hijacking my thread. I wanted to talk about downstairs galleys or lack of them.
 
Foxy
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RE: Why No Below Cabin Galleys On Modern Widebodies?

Thu Mar 03, 2005 9:16 am

I thought the A346 had a downstairs galley?
 
ACAfan
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RE: Why No Below Cabin Galleys On Modern Widebodies?

Thu Mar 03, 2005 9:17 am

Quoting Orion737 (reply 9):
Hey stop hijacking my thread. I wanted to talk about downstairs galleys or lack of them.


The reason there is no galley downstairs is because food and carts would have to be moved up and down. This requires an elevator lift of some kind. A lift is cumbersome to use, adds cost, adds weight, wastes time, wastes space, and if it breaks down, the FAs have to carry meal trays up and down the stairs.
Freddie Laker ... May be at peace with his maker ... But he is a persona non grata ... with IATA
 
DfwRevolution
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RE: Why No Below Cabin Galleys On Modern Widebodies?

Thu Mar 03, 2005 9:17 am

Quoting ACAfan (reply 8):
Why not put passenger seats up there?


Eh probably too much weight, and the celing high is rather low. The walls also slant inward very steeply. The 747 also has above-deck crew rest, and the 747-Adv might have an optional "personal cabin" area for F class passengers.

Quoting ACAfan (reply 8):
Hey stop hijacking my thread. I wanted to talk about downstairs galleys or lack of them.


Well... we have:

- There are better ways to utilize revenue area
- They are not well-loved by some crews
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Orion737
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RE: Why No Below Cabin Galleys On Modern Widebodies?

Thu Mar 03, 2005 9:20 am

Does the A346 really have a downstairs galley? If it does thats cool, I wanna go down there. If so does it have lifts, like the old Tristar had?

Funny if they were such a bad idea .At the time of their inception on the Tristar and DC10 they were seen as very useful inovations allowing more space in the cabin for seating.
 
ANCFlyer
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RE: Why No Below Cabin Galleys On Modern Widebodies?

Thu Mar 03, 2005 9:22 am

Quoting Orion737 (reply 9):
I wanted to talk about downstairs galleys or lack of them


They don't need them, how much "Galley" do you need to store BOB boxes of food . . .
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Foxy
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RE: Why No Below Cabin Galleys On Modern Widebodies?

Thu Mar 03, 2005 9:24 am

Lufthansa certainly have them on the A346


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Orion737
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RE: Why No Below Cabin Galleys On Modern Widebodies?

Thu Mar 03, 2005 9:33 am

Great, a modern downstairs galley with lifts. If I were cabin crew I would love to cram into them tiny lifts and go up and down to that galley!

I wonder if any other A346 operators like IB have them?
 
khenleydia
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RE: Why No Below Cabin Galleys On Modern Widebodies?

Thu Mar 03, 2005 9:54 am

I believe that older 747s had them also. Didn't have the elevator that went from the very bottom to the very top to shuttle food and drinks around?

KhenleyDIA
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supa7E7
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RE: Why No Below Cabin Galleys On Modern Widebodies?

Thu Mar 03, 2005 10:09 am

Revenue suites would be a great idea! Hard to certify, but using the looong above-deck space for sleepers could be highly desirable. I always say that 1000+ people could fit into a 747 fuselage IF the space were used efficiently.

All the rules about "safety" (largely a joke IMO) add up to a large increase in cost and environmental impact due to under-loaded jet aircraft.
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DAYflyer
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RE: Why No Below Cabin Galleys On Modern Widebodies?

Thu Mar 03, 2005 4:43 pm

Quoting Orion737 (reply 0):
Why therefore have neither Boeing or Airbus provided or offered a below deck galley on their long-haul aircraft?


Cargo revenue, pure and simple.
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antonovman
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RE: Why No Below Cabin Galleys On Modern Widebodies?

Thu Mar 03, 2005 4:58 pm

some of the old PanAm 747's had them when i worked for them
They didnt go all the way to the upper deck though as stated as they were
mid ship
 
rtfm
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RE: Why No Below Cabin Galleys On Modern Widebodies?

Thu Mar 03, 2005 4:59 pm

BA did have crew rest compartments fitted into the cargo hold on some a/c but they were only temporary until the overhead crew-rest areas were fitted. The problem with them is that they take up cargo room whereas the overhead space is normally 'wasted'. I believe that all the cargo hold crew-rest compartments have now gone.
 
Icaro
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RE: Why No Below Cabin Galleys On Modern Widebodies?

Thu Mar 03, 2005 6:12 pm

Hi all,

In IB's A346's we have the usual galleys in the main cabin, but we have a fix Crew Rest Area on the lower deck at the rear of the aircraft. It occupies part of the last cargo compartment where no LCD's can fit, so no much cargo space involved.
On the A343's we have a Mobile Crew Rest Area in the lower deck, but it is not fix. It is only boarded on flights longer than 12 hours.
In my opinion rear galleys must be a nightmare, having to use lifts all the time. I think it would make service slower.
 
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DL_Mech
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RE: Why No Below Cabin Galleys On Modern Widebodie

Thu Mar 03, 2005 9:34 pm

Quoting KhenleyDIA (reply 17):
I believe that older 747s had them also.

AA,UA and QF had them on the Classics
This plane is built to withstand anything... except a bad pilot.
 
neednewairport
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RE: Why No Below Cabin Galleys On Modern Widebodies?

Thu Mar 03, 2005 11:39 pm

I loved the lower deck galley's on the dc10's. That was my favorite position to work because you were "out of the line of fire" Put my tunes on and cook a couple hunndred meals......plus we got a buck more an hour for working down there......and......here is a secret, we (the F/A's) smoked down there.
 
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RayChuang
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RE: Why No Below Cabin Galleys On Modern Widebodies?

Thu Mar 03, 2005 11:49 pm

It will be VERY interesting to see how airlines implement the galley areas on the A380-800, especially with a full-length upper deck.   
 
IGUY
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RE: Why No Below Cabin Galleys On Modern Widebodies?

Thu Mar 03, 2005 11:52 pm

F/A's have also been known to sleep off a hang over below deck.
 
wdleiser
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RE: Why No Below Cabin Galleys On Modern Widebodies?

Thu Mar 03, 2005 11:54 pm

Lufthansa has crew rest on the A343 down below.
 
FlyMeToTheMoon
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RE: Why No Below Cabin Galleys On Modern Widebodies?

Fri Mar 04, 2005 12:07 am

Airlines make more money from cargo than they do from two or three rows of economy seats that they would be able to place on the upper deck if the galleys were moved on the lowerdeck. Furthermore, lower deck galleys require elevators (L1011 had them) and structural changes to the aircraft. Bathrooms or crew rest areas significantly less complicated to install on the lower deck. I know that UA had lower deck crew rests on some of their 772. In fact on one of the flights from FRA to IAD to ever nice UA international crews took my 3 year old son dowstairs to visit. He was extatic. Anyway, cargo rules, there are routes on which most of the profit on a flight is generated by cargo.

Hope this helps. Safe flying.
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vsmike
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RE: Why No Below Cabin Galleys On Modern Widebodies?

Fri Mar 04, 2005 12:47 am

VS have mid-cabin, below-wing crew rest pods on A-340-300/600s, and above-cabin pods located beneath the veritcal tail fin on the 747-400s.

VSM
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babybus
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RE: Why No Below Cabin Galleys On Modern Widebodies?

Fri Mar 04, 2005 12:51 am

When I worked with Pan Am (on charters) and ATA Tristars at LGW the crew told me that the downstairs galley was not a good idea. Basically if the lift gets stuck or goes inoperative that's a lot of stuff(food,drinks,trays,bottles etc) to have to carry up to the main deck by hand.

The crew member stuck in the lift when it went inoporative was stuck standing in there till the plane landed, ie; maybe 8 hours later. If you don't like small spaces that is not the place to be.

The downstairs galley was big. The drinking water guage down there, which I had to check.
and with that..cabin crew, seats for landing please.
 
buslover
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RE: Why No Below Cabin Galleys On Modern Widebodies?

Fri Mar 04, 2005 1:23 am

Yes DLH has Lower Deck Facilities: Cabin rest area, galley and restrooms.
See pictures above.
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N1120A
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RE: Why No Below Cabin Galleys On Modern Widebodies?

Fri Mar 04, 2005 1:38 am

Quoting FlyMeToTheMoon (reply 28):
I know that UA had lower deck crew rests on some of their 772. In fact on one of the flights from FRA to IAD to ever nice UA international crews took my 3 year old son dowstairs to visit.


UA still has the lower deck crew rests as they cannot afford to do the conversion as of yet.

>Furthermore, lower deck galleys require elevators (L1011 had them) and structural changes to the aircraft.<

The L1011 was designed with them in mind, so there were no structural changes necessary. Then again, PSA never carried much cargo, so they had a lounge built into one of the downstairs cargo holds
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Tod
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RE: Why No Below Cabin Galleys On Modern Widebodies?

Fri Mar 04, 2005 5:20 am

Why not put passenger seats up there?

pax egress issues require wasting more space than you gain.


747-Adv might have an optional "personal cabin" area for F class passengers.

Unlikely.

Boeing has researched the concept. Access to sleeper suites would need to be though the Y class area and would not be desirable to F pax. Access to the space above the main deck and behind the upper deck via the upper deck would be desirable, but is not feasible due to the massive quantity of air conditioning ducting in the area that is not practical to relocate.
 
JetboyTWA
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RE: Why No Below Cabin Galleys On Modern Widebodies?

Fri Mar 04, 2005 5:34 am

As far as the galleys in the Tristar go, this is what I remember from TWAs, when I was able to go down there during a flight.

If the lifts became inoperative, there were no other ways to get the food carts up to the main deck. There was an "escape hatch" in the roof of the galley, which entered to the left aisle of the passenger cabin. There were also escape hatches in the roof of each lift, just in case it failed during flight.

I will never forget how mesmorized I was to go in an elevator, while in an aircraft some 5-miles up in the sky...

-Ryan
 
broke
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RE: Why No Below Cabin Galleys On Modern Widebodies?

Fri Mar 04, 2005 5:39 am

Originally, the initial wide bodied commerical transports had interiors with a number of amenities, relatively large seating pitches and lower level galleys. As the amenities (upper deck lounges on the 747's for instance) went away and the passenger seat pitch went down, it became difficult to find the space for the checked baggage of a high density wide bodied airplane with a full load. Flights were leaving with baggage left behind because there was no more room in the cargo compartments. Some operators actually chartered a freighter to carry these bags to the destination of the passengers in the full wide bodied aircraft!!
The result was that operators, who had used lower deck galleys, put the galleys on the main deck and reduced passenger inflight service. This allowed for more room in the belly for checked baggage.
For instance, a mixed class L-1011 with a 220 passenger load where each passenger checked 2 bags did not have enough volume in the cargo compartments for all of the bags.
Putting passengers in the lower level opens up a whole another set of problems. For instance, on the PSA L-1011's, which had lower level seating in the forward fuselage, had a fairing under the fuselage behind the nose landing gear. This fairing enclosed a barrier to prevent the nose gear from going through the passenger floor in case of a gear collapse.
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FlyboyOz
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RE: Why No Below Cabin Galleys On Modern Widebodies?

Fri Mar 04, 2005 6:18 am

On Qantas B744ERs, they dont have below cabin galley anymore. I am not sure whether they have enough food to serve pax because they have two choices of meals on both main meals. That's good!
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aa777223er
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RE: Why No Below Cabin Galleys On Modern Widebodies?

Fri Mar 04, 2005 6:35 am

Quoting ACAfan (reply 4):
What does the above deck crew rest area look like on the 777?



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777gk
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RE: Why No Below Cabin Galleys On Modern Widebodies?

Fri Mar 04, 2005 6:51 am

Continental never really took to the concept of below-deck galleys, and accordingly all of our DC-10-10s (that we ordered) were delivered with main-deck galley space. Around that time, 1971-1973, almost all of the DC-10-10s coming out of Long Beach had the lower galley, with American and United operating the most examples. Our ships were kind of an oddball early on, but by the time the improved DC-10-30 was put into service, the standard configuration came sans the lower-lobe kitchen.

I am fairly certain AA and UA used the lower galley on their DC-10-10s until they took them out of service late in the 1990s and early 2000s.

The 747-100 was a similar case, and I remember at least TWA ordered a below deck galley on their first examples. I'm sure there were plenty of others. However, the idea had become passe by the mid-70s and the vast majority of 747-200s had all main-deck galleys.
 
CRJ900
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RE: Why No Below Cabin Galleys On Modern Widebodies?

Fri Mar 04, 2005 6:54 am

It must take forever to restock the lower galley on LH's A346 if all those carts and ATLAS boxes can only be put in place via the cart lift? Does LH have longer turnaround times for the A346 because of this?

From pictures in this forums' database, it looks like modern widebody galleys are a lot more "efficient" than galleys in older aircraft, meaning that they appear to use the available space more cleverly, plus that the amount of in-flight service items have probably gone down as costs are slashed.
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POR2GAL
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RE: Why No Below Cabin Galleys On Modern Widebodies?

Fri Mar 04, 2005 7:11 am

Ahh, menage-a-trois heaven!
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ramprat74
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RE: Why No Below Cabin Galleys On Modern Widebodies?

Fri Mar 04, 2005 7:26 am

I hated working the DC-10's we had. It took so long to load the carts on the cargo loader. Most of the cart doors would fly open when they were moving on the loader. The only good thing about it was. Us rampers would always beat the techs to the food. Big grin
 
pogo
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RE: Why No Below Cabin Galleys On Modern Widebodies?

Fri Mar 04, 2005 8:08 am

Quoting Icaro (reply 22):
In IB's A346's we have the usual galleys in the main cabin, but we have a fix Crew Rest Area on the lower deck at the rear of the aircraft. It occupies part of the last cargo compartment where no LCD's can fit, so no much cargo space involved.

MU China Eastern also have this crew rest area on their A346's, it is located where the bulk hold would be on an A343.
When in doubt give it a clout
 
teamregal
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RE: Why No Below Cabin Galleys On Modern Widebodies?

Fri Mar 04, 2005 8:37 am

Quoting POR2GAL (reply 40):
Ahh, menage-a-trois heaven!


I'm sure a lot us were thinking the same thing...  wink 

REGAL
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