jacobin777
Posts: 12262
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British Airways 747 Flies Again On Three Engines

Fri Mar 04, 2005 4:29 pm

Quite interesting indeed..

"The same British Airways 747 that flew from Los Angeles to England on only three of its four engines had a repeat occurrence on its next round trip: It lost an engine en route from Singapore to London, but the crew continued, flying 11 hours with a dead engine, Friday's Wall Street Journal reported.

British Airways said Flight 18 left Singapore with 356 passengers shortly after 11:35 p.m. local time on Friday and suffered an engine failure three-and- half hours into the flight. As in the Los Angeles incident, the crew communicated with the airline's operations center in London and decided to continue. About 11 hours later, the flight landed uneventfully at London's Heathrow Airport, only about 15 minutes late, a British Airways spokeswoman said.

"It's perfectly safe to fly with three engines," the spokeswoman, Diana Fung, said.""

rest of the story at

http://money.iwon.com/jsp/nw/nwdt_rt...=20050304&alias=/alias/money/cm/nw
"Up the Irons!"
 
baw716
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RE: British Airways 747 Flies Again On Three Engines

Fri Mar 04, 2005 4:43 pm

Anyone know which engine went down during the flight?
Please advise asap. I am working on a theory about this aircraft.

Also, can someone get me a tail no?
Thanks
baw716
David L. Lamb, fmr Area Mgr Alitalia SFO 1998-2002, fmr Regional Analyst SFO-UAL 1992-1998
 
kl911
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RE: British Airways 747 Flies Again On Three Engines

Fri Mar 04, 2005 4:45 pm

I don't see what wrong with it. It's no problem flying with only 3 engines.

KL911
 
JGPH1A
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RE: British Airways 747 Flies Again On Three Engines

Fri Mar 04, 2005 4:45 pm

Sounds like someone in Cardiff is in for a bollocking.
Young and beautiful and thin and gorgeous AND BANNED ! Cya at airspaceonline.com, losers
 
BlatantEcho
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RE: British Airways 747 Flies Again On Three Engines

Fri Mar 04, 2005 5:04 pm

Three letters for you:

S.O.P.
They're not handing trophies out today
 
gkirk
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RE: British Airways 747 Flies Again On Three Engines

Fri Mar 04, 2005 5:47 pm

JGPH1A, perhaps it was a different engine this time, and I believe theyy do some minor maintenance on the 744s at LHR, so it may not be the fault of anyone at CWL.
When you hear the noise of the Tartan Army Boys, we'll be coming down the road!
 
ua777222
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RE: British Airways 747 Flies Again On Three Engines

Fri Mar 04, 2005 5:52 pm

It might be SOP (Standard Operating Procedures or ?) but once more new sources get wind of this story BA is going to be S.O.L.

Now that I think about it, while the crew was circling figuring out what to do, did they think about the shit PR this is going to bring. Regardless of the fact that the a/c was perfectly able to fly such a distance on only 3 engines, BA just had their asses handed to them by the news and, in my opinion, from a business stand point you don't want to get back in line for that ride. I understand that the EU just passed a law and I get the fact that a 744 can fly at such a distance on up to 2 in-op engines.

On the other hand, this failure occurred later in the flight at cruise therefore allowing for them to shut the engine down, milk the tail winds if any, and arrive at the final destionation.

W/e, they felt that it was still save to fly on then they felt it was safe to fly on. If you think about it, 2 engine failures in one week............Double Trouble?

Thanks again,

Matt
"It wasn't raining when Noah built the ark."
 
gkirk
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RE: British Airways 747 Flies Again On Three Engines

Fri Mar 04, 2005 6:07 pm

Of course, it could all just be co-incidence, and knowing what the media is like, this was probably a different 747 anyway  Wink
When you hear the noise of the Tartan Army Boys, we'll be coming down the road!
 
JoKeR
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RE: British Airways 747 Flies Again On Three Engines

Fri Mar 04, 2005 6:08 pm

Golly gosh... bad machine, bad Rolls Royce, bad, bad, bad!  stirthepot 

[Edited 2005-03-04 10:10:02]
Kafa, čaj, šraf?
 
SailorOrion
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RE: British Airways 747 Flies Again On Three Engines

Fri Mar 04, 2005 6:11 pm

I don't think there is any reason to divert to some remote place in central asia if you have 3 good engines running.

SailorOrion
 
mrniji
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RE: British Airways 747 Flies Again On Three Engines

Fri Mar 04, 2005 6:14 pm

Quoting KL911 (reply 2):
I don't see what wrong with it. It's no problem flying with only 3 engines.


Right, great idea, so why not convert all 4 Engines to Trijets?  crazy 
"The earth provides enough resources for everyone's need, but not for some people's greed." (Gandhi)
 
Ready4Pushback
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RE: British Airways 747 Flies Again On Three Engines

Fri Mar 04, 2005 6:28 pm

Quoting KL911 (reply 2):
I don't see what wrong with it. It's no problem flying with only 3 engines.

You are obviously right given that it landed only a few minutes late.

Quoting UA777222 (reply 7):
Now that I think about it, while the crew was circling figuring out what to do, did they think about the shit PR this is going to bring. Regardless of the fact that the a/c was perfectly able to fly such a distance on only 3 engines, BA just had their asses handed to them by the news and, in my opinion, from a business stand point you don't want to get back in line for that ride. I understand that the EU just passed a law and I get the fact that a 744 can fly at such a distance on up to 2 in-op engines.

So BA should give in to the media? Someone always has it in for BA - and this is just ignorance by the public if they are shocked that they flew for such a long way on just 3 engines. Didn't they see the new 772LR roll out last week? You raise the point of the new EU regulations - but at the end of the day, these are designed to minimise the number of delays. So, even if the new EU regulations were a part of it, what's wrong with that - what they did was in the interests of the pax....
 
sebolino
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RE: British Airways 747 Flies Again On Three Engines

Fri Mar 04, 2005 6:37 pm

I don't see what wrong with it. It's no problem flying with only 3 engines.

Noting wrong except that in this situation there's no more safety net.
If it was really "no problem" all 747s would have only three engines.
 
skidmarks
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RE: British Airways 747 Flies Again On Three Engines

Fri Mar 04, 2005 6:45 pm

Seems to me that the Wall Street Journal has a definate "down" on BA and should start to grow up a little.

Amazing that BA seems to be the only airline thye hear about that does this sort of heinous thing.

Wonder what other sort of drivel they publish in their rag?

Andy
Growing old is compulsory, growing up is optional
 
musapapaya
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RE: British Airways 747 Flies Again On Three Engines

Fri Mar 04, 2005 6:45 pm

poor MX work at BA - one and only one conclusion about this. I dont care about diverting or continuing, but the ONLY conclusion is BAD MX at BA. end of story.
Lufthansa Group of Airlines
 
diesel1
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RE: British Airways 747 Flies Again On Three Engines

Fri Mar 04, 2005 7:37 pm

Musapapaya

Quoting ,reply=16:
poor MX work at BA - one and only one conclusion about this. I dont care about diverting or continuing, but the ONLY conclusion is BAD MX at BA. end of story.


How do you know this.. no surmising, no guessing, no assuming, no second or third or fourth hand information - what facts do you have???

None. It be a maintenance issue, but I would suggest you wait until the details are known instead of making wild and groundless allegations.
I don't like signatures...
 
A340600
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RE: British Airways 747 Flies Again On Three Engines

Fri Mar 04, 2005 8:13 pm

Does anyone know the regisrtation of the aircraft in both incidents?

Sam
Despite the name I am a Boeing man through and through!
 
MYT332
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RE: British Airways 747 Flies Again On Three Engines

Fri Mar 04, 2005 8:25 pm

It was G-BNLG.
One Life, Live it.
 
kl911
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RE: British Airways 747 Flies Again On Three Engines

Fri Mar 04, 2005 8:31 pm

Noting wrong except that in this situation there's no more safety net.
If it was really "no problem" all 747s would have only three engines.


There is still a safety net, A 747 can land on 2 engines.

KL911
 
Orion737
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RE: British Airways 747 Flies Again On Three Engines

Fri Mar 04, 2005 8:34 pm

I agree with that silly woman from BA, it is perfectly safe to fly with 3 engines - on a trijet!
 
Pe@rson
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RE: British Airways 747 Flies Again On Three Engines

Fri Mar 04, 2005 8:38 pm

Another nice example of how these so-called experts in this thread know more about the true professionals. Why would BA risk the safety of X amount of passengers, and thus risk its reputation, when it could have diverted? Answer: because the 744 can safely fly on 3 engines so did not need to divert.
"Everyone writing for the Telegraph knows that the way to grab eyeballs is with Ryanair and/or sex."
 
dbo861
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RE: British Airways 747 Flies Again On Three Engines

Fri Mar 04, 2005 8:40 pm

Do you think they'd alert the passengers of the engine failure? It might just cause some undue panic among the people on board who wouldn't understand that it would be perfectly safe to fly on 3 engines.
 
Pe@rson
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RE: British Airways 747 Flies Again On Three Engines

Fri Mar 04, 2005 8:42 pm

Quoting Dbo861 (reply 24):
might just cause some undue panic among the people on board who wouldn't understand that it would be perfectly safe to fly on 3 engines.


Like from most of the people on this website?  Wink The 'experts'?  Wink
"Everyone writing for the Telegraph knows that the way to grab eyeballs is with Ryanair and/or sex."
 
Orion737
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RE: British Airways 747 Flies Again On Three Engines

Fri Mar 04, 2005 8:42 pm

I think the passengers had a right to be informed. I reckon if they didnt, many would have been angry to learn of it later!
 
mrniji
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RE: British Airways 747 Flies Again On Three Engines

Fri Mar 04, 2005 9:11 pm

Quoting Pe@rson (reply 23):
Why would BA risk the safety of X amount of passengers, and thus risk its reputation, when it could have diverted?


Because they can save a hell lot of money  Wink
"The earth provides enough resources for everyone's need, but not for some people's greed." (Gandhi)
 
latinaviation
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RE: British Airways 747 Flies Again On Three Engines

Fri Mar 04, 2005 9:33 pm

Quoting BAW716 (reply 1):
Anyone know which engine went down during the flight?
Please advise asap. I am working on a theory about this aircraft.

Also, can someone get me a tail no?



It was the same engine number (#2).

British Airways said it flew the empty plane from Manchester to London, and replaced the No. 2 engine, located on the left side closest to the cabin. The plane, registered as G-BNLG, returned to service and flew from London to Singapore. On the return flight, covering 6,765 miles over southern Asia and Europe, the replacement No. 2 engine failed while the jet was at its cruising altitude.
 
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BALandorLivery
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RE: British Airways 747 Flies Again On Three Engines

Fri Mar 04, 2005 10:37 pm

I don't see what all the fuss is about. The 747 is quite capable AND allowed to fly on 3 engines in such a situation.

So why divert when there is no need to, and create more operational problems? A return to LHR was by far the most appropriate descision for all involved (passengers, creaw, maintenence staff, a/c, ops guys etc).

Think about it, in that situation it's still got one more engine than twins.

It really isn't a big deal.
 
MYT332
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RE: British Airways 747 Flies Again On Three Engines

Fri Mar 04, 2005 10:47 pm

So BA thought they fixed the issue by changing the number 2 engine yet the new engine fails.

So, BA got it wrong?
One Life, Live it.
 
APFPilot1985
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RE: British Airways 747 Flies Again On Three Engines

Fri Mar 04, 2005 11:23 pm

So let me get this straight, 2 different engines fail on the same airplane same station and BA continues to fly this thing and no one sees a problem? The first time i didnt see anything wrong with what they did, but once it happens a second time i would be quite dubious about the wisdom of continuing on.
Stand Up and Be Counted Visit Site Related to Voice your opinion
 
col
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RE: British Airways 747 Flies Again On Three Engines

Fri Mar 04, 2005 11:28 pm

If anything this was more risky than the LAX flight. SIN-LHR is normally with headwinds, and at a much heavier weight. The crew obviously followed the normal SAFE procedures and landed at LHR 15 minutes late. The LAX incident would have been ok but for the wind calcs etc. not being as calculated.

Well done BA you delivered your PAX with little inconvenience, customer service.
 
Ready4Pushback
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RE: British Airways 747 Flies Again On Three Engines

Fri Mar 04, 2005 11:54 pm

Quoting Skidmarks (reply 15):
Wonder what other sort of drivel they publish in their rag?

Take a look at this thread: CO - World's Largest Airline

That's the same sort of drivel. Newspapers will attack anything if they think it will sell. Not worth buying or spending time on in this forum.
 
Leezyjet
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RE: British Airways 747 Flies Again On Three Engines

Sat Mar 05, 2005 12:20 am

"So, BA got it wrong?"

I wouldn't say they got it wrong as such.

When the first engine failed, BA did the right thing and removed it for inspection, they were not to know at that point that it would happen again to the new engine (thats assuming it is the same problem and not just a huge coincidence), and they obviously thought that the problem was serious enough to warrant the removal of that engine and was a problem that would be cured by the fitting of a new engine.

I'm sure that now it has happened again on the same a/c on the new engine, then that a/c will be taken out of service and a thorough inspection of all the systems related to that engine position will take place.

As many have said before, continuing in a quad on three engines, you still have 1 more engine than on a twin and a quad will still stay aloft on 2 engines although at a much lower altitude - you cannot say that a twin will stay up with 2 engines out - as Air Transat and Air Canada have prooved !!!.

 Smile
"She Rolls, 45 knots, 90, 135, nose comes up to 20 degrees, she's airborne - She flies, Concorde Flies"
 
hz747300
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RE: British Airways 747 Flies Again On Three Engines

Sat Mar 05, 2005 12:26 am

What are the procedures if they lost another engine after losing the first one? My guess is if the plane can fly on two engines with at least 75%-80% performance, then it is a non-issue if one engine goes down. If at 2 engines it is at 50-60% then it probably better to divert.

My guess is that the passengers never knew unless it was announced.
Keep on truckin'...
 
manu
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RE: British Airways 747 Flies Again On Three Engines

Sat Mar 05, 2005 12:35 am

Quoting Leezyjet (reply 35):
As many have said before, continuing in a quad on three engines, you still have 1 more engine than on a twin and a quad will still stay aloft on 2 engines although at a much lower altitude - you cannot say that a twin will stay up with 2 engines out - as Air Transat and Air Canada have proved !!!.


Here in Canada, we try and conserve fuel to the max  Smile

Should I be looking on the web for some new fare sales at BA? Given all of this fuel they're saving and the great publicity!
 
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Revelation
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RE: British Airways 747 Flies Again On Three Engin

Sat Mar 05, 2005 12:38 am

Quoting Ready4Pushback (reply 12):
Someone always has it in for BA


BA is a fine airline. I don't understand why many of its fans have a persecution complex. I think this issue would be getting raised regardless of the operator. In fact I think this issue would be blown up a lot more if it was one of the operators who've had fairly recent 747 hull losses. I really don't see any BA bashing here at all.
Inspiration, move me brightly!
 
tomindc
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RE: British Airways 747 Flies Again On Three Engines

Sat Mar 05, 2005 12:40 am

Slightly off topic, but impressive load factors on both flights!
 
aogdesk
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RE: British Airways 747 Flies Again On Three Engines

Sat Mar 05, 2005 12:57 am

"Les Dorr, a spokesman for the U.S. Federal Aviation Administration, said the agency believed the Los Angeles flight would have violated U.S. regulations, which require most planes to land at the nearest suitable airport after an engine failure, according to the Journal."

I realize that the FAA isn't always 100% up to speed on SOP, but it still strikes me as a considerable risk to continue on with 3 engines. What is the #2 engine failure wasn't entirely contained and sent a small amount of FOD into engine 1? Now you're facing the possibility of two engines on the same side.....
I guess I'm wondering what other 747 drivers would do in the same circumstances, particularly when this happened ~100' AGL.
 
ltbewr
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RE: British Airways 747 Flies Again On Three Engines

Sat Mar 05, 2005 1:10 am

I am quite sure BA's a/c insurer and the people at Lloyds of London may be very interested in these 3 engined flights. The insurers may say to BA that this puts not only you at great risk, but them as well. They may be paying out claims on the 1 and 2nd breakdowns of these engines, but of greater concern is what if another engine, working harder, had broken down while continuing to fly - they might be paying out many millions in claims to dead people due to a crash
Based on the timing of when the engine failed on the LAX-LHR flight, there is no excuse about not making an emergency landing at a suitable airport in the northern USA (MSP?)or Canada (Toronto?). If the engine failure timing as to the SIN-LHR flight was similar, perhaps there wasn't the suitable airport (location, weather) to make an emergency landing in.
Maybe the Pilots/co-pilots were ex-DC-10/L-1011 pilots, so flying with 3 engines was normal to them  Smile
 
Indio66
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RE: British Airways 747 Flies Again On Three Engines

Sat Mar 05, 2005 1:28 am

Slightly off topic, but can a 74 loose two engines on the same wing and still fly??
 
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scbriml
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RE: British Airways 747 Flies Again On Three Engines

Sat Mar 05, 2005 1:34 am

Quoting APFPilot1985 (reply 32):
So let me get this straight, 2 different engines fail on the same airplane same station and BA continues to fly this thing and no one sees a problem?


Where has anyone said BA are continuing to fly this plane without further investigation?
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
 
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clickhappy
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RE: British Airways 747 Flies Again On Three Engines

Sat Mar 05, 2005 1:37 am

I wonder what the statistical chances are of a 747 losing the same engine twice in such a short span.
 
agill
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RE: British Airways 747 Flies Again On Three Engines

Sat Mar 05, 2005 1:45 am

3 engines 4 longhaul seems to be the new motto.
 
bar032
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RE: British Airways 747 Flies Again On Three Engines

Sat Mar 05, 2005 1:51 am

Noting wrong except that in this situation there's no more safety net.
If it was really "no problem" all 747s would have only three engines.


Having four engines means that the climb performance and cruise speed are improved and engine wear-out is decreased since less thrust is needed out of each engine. That is why the 747 has 4 engines. It is capable of flyging on only two of its engines running and may therefore continue flights with one engine being inoperative.
If the route doesn't require three-engine drift down performance in case of engine-failure due to a high MORA/MOCA or special weather situations, it is perfectly sensible to me to continue the flight on three engines and save a lot of money firstly on not having to pay the pax lots of cash because of the problems and secondly on not having to dump over 100 tons of fuel in the ocean...

Check out this site:
http://edition.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/europe/03/04/ba.jet.ap/index.html

Regards/BAR032
Aviate, Navigate, Communicate
 
spk
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RE: British Airways 747 Flies Again On Three Engines

Sat Mar 05, 2005 2:04 am

The route from SIN to LHR has plenty of diversion airport. In case that another engine fails, they would not have much problem landing at the nearest airport.

It's not like a polar route or anything.
 
juventus
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RE: British Airways 747 Flies Again On Three Engines

Sat Mar 05, 2005 2:38 am

British Airways 747s, the best 3 engine airplanes in the sky.
 
252MKR
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RE: British Airways 747 Flies Again On Three Engines

Sat Mar 05, 2005 3:13 am

The Airplane G-BLNG should be nicknamed: TRIPOD
"...If I'm here, and you're here--doesn't that make it our time?" Jeff Spicoli
 
jc2354
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RE: British Airways 747 Flies Again On Three Engines

Sat Mar 05, 2005 3:22 am

The purpose, logic or spirit of a 747 to be able to fly on 3 engines is to enable the plane to continue to the nearest suitable air field. As this flight was only 3 hours from Singapore, they should have, at least, went back.

Let's not forget that the 777, 767, 737, 320, 330, are all capable of continuing flight on 1 engine, but would any of us want the flight to continue for hours on 1 engine when a diversion airport was available?

For a flight crew or an airline to make the decision to continue a flight with a less than optimum airplane goes against all my training and experience (16,000 hours). Yes, the plane could continue on, had enough fuel, had favorable winds, even arrived early! But, what if a situation would arise that you needed that 4th engine, lost another engine, a system failure of the airplane? The crews/airline have no idea of what damage, if any, is done to the airplane in case of an engine shutdown.

I don't give a rats behind of the cost involved. I am more concerned with the safety of my passengers, my crew, my plane, and MYSELF!

OK, off my soapbox
If not now, then when?
 
APFPilot1985
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RE: British Airways 747 Flies Again On Three Engines

Sat Mar 05, 2005 4:01 am

Quoting Scbriml (reply 40):
Where has anyone said BA are continuing to fly this plane without further investigation?
Sorry, What I meant is that they continued on the SIN-LHR flight. Not that it is still flying
Stand Up and Be Counted Visit Site Related to Voice your opinion
 
khenleydia
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RE: British Airways 747 Flies Again On Three Engines

Sat Mar 05, 2005 4:10 am

Anyone know the registration number of this plane? I am flying from LAX to LHR in early May. I know it is safe to fly on 3 engines, but I would prefer not to fly that same ship. Call me crazy, but I want to make my connection at LHR.

KhenleyDIA
Why sit at home and do nothing when you can travel the world.
 
lapa_saab340
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RE: British Airways 747 Flies Again On Three Engines

Sat Mar 05, 2005 4:20 am

The news report mentions that the #2 engine was shut down 3 hrs into the flight as a precaution after an oil pressure light came on. If this is the case, calling it an engine failure is misleading.

but would any of us want the flight to continue for hours on 1 engine when a diversion airport was available?

If you are flying a twin on extended overwater flights, that diversion airport might just be a couple of hours away on one engine.

As it has already been mentioned by several 747 pilots on this forum (yes, professionals who actually fly the aircraft), the 747 can still fly after a second engine contingency. You can be certain that the nature of the #2 shutdown, as well as the possibility of a second engine shutdown/failure are just two of the items in consideration when the decision is made whether to continue or land and at an alternate.

Back in my school years we used to have what we called the "Executive Decision Maker". It consisted of a wooden board arranged vertically, with many nails in a staggered pattern. At the bottom there were two collection boxes, one marked "yes", the other "no". When an important decision had to be made on a design project, we'd drop a small ball, watch it tumble between the nails and arrive at our final decision. Of course it was done for laughs, and I doubt very much that airline pilots use a similar method in their decision making process  Smile

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