avion
Posts: 2126
Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 1:28 am

Iran Air A300 Shot Down

Sun Apr 02, 2000 9:34 am

In 1992 an Iran Air A300 was shot down incidentally by the US navy during the gulf war. The aircraft was enroute Dubai- Bandar Abbas and had nothing to do with the war. My question: did the relatives of the victims ever receive compensation for this horrible fault?
Was there ever any official excuse for it?

Thanks

Avion
 
Guest

RE: Iran Air A300 Shot Down

Sun Apr 02, 2000 9:52 am

If it was an "Incident".
 
Guest

RE: Iran Air A300 Shot Down

Sun Apr 02, 2000 10:00 am

Avion.

The U.S. government to this day refuses to pay any type of compensation to the Iranian families involved in that disaster. They did however *fork out* $2.9 million to non-Iranian relatives of passengers on the flight, without acknowledging liability, of course.

The cover up of that flight is absolutely disgusting, and the sooner the US gov't does something about it the better. There are 100% in the wrong in this case, and they know it...the attempted cover-up is one to make one wonder just how open governments are these days.

The US was not at war with Iran, and so should be held accountable for IR655.

Some time ago, a Supreme Court through out an appeal for compensation on the grounds that during the tanker war that a state of war was in effect, and that the US Government and contractors can not be held responsible for the actions of soldiers in wartime.

I urge you to look at the following website, which has a complete history on the flight, the shooting down, the cover-up and the legal stuff. It makes for interesting reading.

http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/5260/vince.html
 
Guest

RE: Iran Air A300 Shot Down

Sun Apr 02, 2000 10:00 am

Actually it was shot down on July 3, 1988 and had nothing to do with the Persian Gulf War.

The United States was involved in the Iran-Iraq war (1980-1988) in which the Iranians attempted to block Iraqi oil from reaching the market by mining the waters of the Persian gulf, preventing tankers from being able to safely conduct their business. This led to open conflict between the US and Iranian navy which was winding down at the time of the Iran Air disaster.

The reasons for the disaster are long and laborious but can be summed up as follows.

1) UAE was reluctant to allow US Air Force AWACS radar reconassaince to operate in its territory. As such, the radar coverage of the area in question was very much reduced.

2) Because of #1 above, Aegis reconnaisance ships with much more limited radar range were given responsibility for patrolling the airspace in that sector.

3) Iranian airforce jets had made numerous unsuccessful attacks against US Navy frigates and carriers in the days and weeks leading up to the incident.

4) When the A300 appeared on the radar screens, its transponder indicated it was an Airbus aircraft. But an inexperienced senior officer decided it was an F-14. The aircraft was hailed on radio more than 20 times and told to turn back. Thinking an attack on the ship imminent, the launching of missles was order.
----------------------------------------------------

1. What was a civilian aircraft doing overflying a battle group of US Warships during a war?

2. Why didn't the captain respond to US radio hails?

Many mysterious details remain to be cleared up about the incident. Perhaps the Iranian government decided that 200 Martyrs would not be such a terrible price to pay so that the world would turn against the United States. Maybe the aircraft was empty. Who knows? But it could happen to any country....just as the Korean Air 747 was shot down by Soviet Air Force in 1983 under similar circumstances.

Shit happens out there people. Accidents happen too.
 
DeltaAir
Posts: 1059
Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 4:41 am

Not Totally

Sun Apr 02, 2000 10:00 am

The USS Vincennes was operating under a lot of pressure at the time. The US Navy does not blame the captain due to the fact that the aircraft was on a direct course towards the ship and was not responding to any calls the USS Vincennes made. If you were in the posisition of the Captain onboard the USS Vincennes you would probably have done the same thing he had. In the US Navy, the Captain is responsible for his/her crew and ship. In the event that any hostile force is even suspected he/she is authorized to act (within reason).

This was a devistating event in history. The radar contacts should have never been confused. My feelings go out the the familes and crew of the Iran Air A-300. Let nothing like this ever happen again.
 
Guest

RE: Bitchie Lions

Sun Apr 02, 2000 10:00 am

Nice website---did you write those provocative half-truths yourself or is this a friend of yours?

Its very easy to make hindsight judgements ("The model of F-14 sold to Iran was not capable of launching surface missles) but the captain and crew felt themselves in real danger. US Ships had been attacked by Iranian anti-ship missles repeatedly in the months prior to the attack.

 
Guest

RE: Lions

Sun Apr 02, 2000 10:00 am

Where is the "cover up" you are talking about?

And the US was very much at war with Iran during 1988---unless of course you think destroying over half of Iran's sizeable navy was a gesture of friendship.
 
avion
Posts: 2126
Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 1:28 am

RE: Bitchie Lions

Sun Apr 02, 2000 10:00 am

Please dont start a war. I was only asking if they ever excused this accident officially and of they ever paid compensation? I know that it is a horrible fault and that these lives can never be brought back!

Thanks

Avion
 
Guest

RE: Iran Air A300 Shot Down

Sun Apr 02, 2000 10:00 am

Barnaby, time for some sunblocker.
 
teahan
Posts: 4990
Joined: Sun Nov 21, 1999 11:18 pm

RE: Iran Air A300 Shot Down

Sun Apr 02, 2000 10:00 am

Here is my opinion:

I am Swiss and neutral. Both parties are too blame. THE US for shooting down an Airbus when they knew it was one and the pilot of the plane for not answering the radio calls and overflying that aerea.

Jeremiah Teahan

Goodbye SR-LX MD-11 / 6th of March 1991 to the 31st of October 2004
 
Guest

Barnaby

Sun Apr 02, 2000 10:00 am

Good to see that the White House media releases are believable in at least one person's eyes.

You said that it was also put down to an *inexperienced senior officer*. One would think that a senior officer would have the necessary experience/training to avert this type of situation.

One could also ask the following questions?

1. What was the Vincennes doing inside Iranian territorial waters at the time, in clear violation of international law?

2. Why couldn't the equipment on board one of the most expensive ships in the US Navy fleet understand the difference between Mode 1/2 and Mode 3 IFF?

3. To get from Bandar Abbas to Dubai, one has to fly over the Gulf, and hence, maybe, over warships.

As you put it *shit happens*, but when *shit does happen*, one has to be held accountable for it. Just as we are seeing with the upcoming PA103 trial. If the two Libyans who are on-trial are guilty, they will be held accountable. Isn't this the moral thing?

Again, check that website I gave to you in the first post to see a fuller picture of the story.

http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/5260/vince.html
 
Pronto
Posts: 318
Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2000 12:43 pm

RE: Iran Air A300 Shot Down

Sun Apr 02, 2000 10:00 am

This did not happen in 1992. It was in July 1988. The eight year war between Iran and Iraq was winding down at this time, and U.S. ships were patroling the Gulf, protecting oil tankers of neighbouring countries. Of course relations between Iran and the U.S. were still sour, with the revolution and the hostage taking ordeal less than ten years old. Regardless of this, civilian aircraft are to be sending out signals identifying themselves(which it wasn't), and the aircraft chose to ignore several warnings from the Vincennes. This aircraft was not flying in normal civil air corridors and presented a danger to the ship, which at the time was being engaged by Iranian gunboats.
 
Guest

Barnaby

Sun Apr 02, 2000 10:00 am

You may be surprised to learn that most of the information on that site is from the Washington Post and Newsweek. Isn't the Washington Post the same paper that caught out Nixon in the 70s? And you are trying to tell me that there is no cover up.

C'mon, is your name Barnaby or Captain Rogers?.

The question is, should the US government pay compensation? I believe it should.
 
VirginA340
Posts: 2556
Joined: Sun Jul 17, 2005 12:35 pm

RE: Iran Air A300 Shot Down

Sun Apr 02, 2000 10:00 am

I agree with Jeremiah Teahan; both parties are at fault. The pilot for not responding to repeated radio warnings on cilivian aircraft and military channels to identify itself and to head the opposite direction. The USS Vincennes for shooting down the A300 when the crew knew it was an Airbus aircraft. The person or persons monatering the radar was inexperienced. His/ her mistake costed the lives of over 200 people. I wonder how certain members of the crew and certain US officials sleep at night knowing that the have the blood of over 200 innocent men, women and children on their hands. If this happened to be a US airliner shot down by an Iranian ship. We would demand for justice no matter what the cost ... even if we went to war (US got involved in WW 1 after a German U-boat torpedoed and sunk the R.M.S Lusitania killing nearly 200 Americans). It's about time that these families were told the truth instead of encountering more government red tape and heartless and incompetant bearocracy.
"FUIMUS"
 
Navion
Posts: 1052
Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 1:52 am

Many Mistakes

Sun Apr 02, 2000 10:58 am

It's like all tragedies. There is an unbroken chain of mistakes and errors culminating in a terrible result. Any positive factor in the interim which could have broken the chain probably would have. History is replete with thousands of these types of incidents. I'm not sure what the point of this post is, as I doubt anyone thinks the U.S. or any other country for that matter is reckless or deliberately kills innocent civilians. I hope this post ends here.
 
American_4275
Posts: 1001
Joined: Sat Aug 07, 1999 1:11 am

Come On

Sun Apr 02, 2000 11:59 am

Hi,
This is an interesting topic. But we're making too big a deal out of it. There are obviously a number of opinions on the subject. I also think that there is no need for criticism (there's already been enough of it on the forum). So why don't we all just leave it BE at God bless those families that lost loved ones on that flight.

God Bless,
American_4275
 
acvitale
Posts: 1911
Joined: Sat Aug 18, 2001 8:25 am

RE: Iran Air A300 Shot Down

Sun Apr 02, 2000 12:18 pm

While many have valid points wasn't it found the USS Vincenes never broadcasted on 121.5 the warning but only on the UHF frequency and that the A300 was in an air corridor and the US ship was monitoring controller frequencies.

I am a US citizen and remember the incident well..There was initially a cover up.. I am appalled that it drags on to this day. Yet I also know the Iranians and Libya both took many American lives thru terrorism.. All are awful events
 
N754PR
Posts: 2909
Joined: Mon Oct 04, 1999 10:03 pm

US GOV , I Would Not Trust Them With A Water Gun

Sun Apr 02, 2000 1:22 pm

The US government are a bunch of fakes !, they always tell countries what to do but never get their own shop in order. If the stupid idiots on the navy ship could not tell the difference between fighters and an A300 then they are 100% WRONG. The US Gov is WRONG.

Look at the Area 51 thing. When staff started saying they were getting sick (and people living down wind) they took the government to court. What was the first problem ???

The US gov refused to even confirm that Area 51 is there !!!!!, even when people had pictures of it !!

The USA, the place were even school kids have to pass through security to get to class to see if they have guns !, the place were you 6 year old shots dead a class mate because they dont like them.

The USA is not the police of the world and neither are they always correct. The US should spend more time trying to solve its own problems before trying to solve other countries problems.

The USA shot down a passenger plane full of normal everyday people on board, they should be paying big time for that.

Daryl
Bush, your a sad, sad man.
 
Guest

RE: Iran Air A300 Shot Down

Sun Apr 02, 2000 2:11 pm

Well, I know this topic gets peoples hackles up, but I think at the very least the government should compensate the families. What kind of a slap in the face is it to compensate only the non-Iranian families? We're always talking about how we oppose the Iranian government not the Iranian people...it's about time we put our money where our mouths are. And I think before people start getting angry about Iranian protesters burning the US flag and calling us the Great Satan, they should at least consider for a moment that the reason they're doing so might be because the US military once killed a friend, relative, acquaintance, etc. with no apology or compensation. I think now would be a great time to offer some money, as it would help thaw relations with Khatami's gov't.
 
Guest

Put Yourself In The Cockpit

Sun Apr 02, 2000 3:43 pm

To those members who've criticised the Iranian airliner's actions: what would you have done differently?

Put yourself in the cockpit of that A300 - you are operating a legitimate, scheduled civilian flight, in a recognised air corridor, following a standard flight path, listening to the ATC frequencies as you're required to ... so you happen to pick up a message from an American warship calling on a F-14 to turn back from its flightpath ... do you respond, figuring out that it's YOU they're calling?

Did that airliner have a right to be where it was, when it was?

If the US Navy was concerned with air traffic originating from Bandar Abbas, was it monitoring that airport's ATC?

Think about these questions, and then ask yourself - who bears the responsibility for this tragedy?
 
avion
Posts: 2126
Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 1:28 am

RE: Southflite

Sun Apr 02, 2000 4:41 pm

What you say makes perfekt sense. So it was only the US vincennes faut. If it would have been a european or american aircraft things would have been totally different.

Thanks

Avion
 
Guest

RE: Southflite

Sun Apr 02, 2000 5:51 pm

Am I correct in assuming that a civilian airliner is not required to answer calls that are put out on military bands? I remember reading this somewhere (not related to this case).
 
hmmmm...
Posts: 1959
Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 8:32 am

A Stark Reminder

Mon Apr 03, 2000 2:20 am

We must remember, this event took place just a year after the USS Stark incident. On May 17, 1987, an IRAQI fighter flying in the hotly contested Persian Gulf area during the Iran/Iraq war, approached the US frigate and fired two missiles, in err, at the ship.
The Stark detected the aircraft but since it did not know whether it was friend or foe, Capt. Brindel decided to take no defensive action. Two exocet missiles ripped open her hull and thrity-five members of her crew were killed.

So, it was in the context of that mistake that the Iranian Airbus flew into danger a year later in the same dangerous area of the Persian Gulf. When the Airbus approached the Vincennes, again the identity of the aircraft could not be determined. When contact with the Airbus was not made, Capt. Rogers was put into a terrible decision. He could wait a little longer in the hope that it was not an Iranian fighter bearing down on them, and risk his ship and his crew on that bet, or he could take defensive action in the hope that it was. And since a captain has as his first priority, the safety of his men and his ship, not the safety of airliners, he decided he had to take action and cross his fingers that it was not a civilian plane. Capt. Rogers decided that the US Navy did not need another Stark reminder (pun intended) of what could happen if you wait it out. So he decided to err on the side of caution.

Regardless of whether contact with the Airbus could have been made had they tried other channels, the Vincennes acted in self-defence only. Those poor people on that airliner were victims of what is called the fog of war.

Should the US pay out? Perhaps. But then again, the Iranians got their revenge. Pan AM 103 is understood by the intelligence community to have been in reprisal for the accidental downing of that Airbus. Yet Pan AM 103 was no accident. There was no fog of war there. And the Iranian government hasn't paid 5 cents to the relatives of anybody on that flight.

Hmmmm...
An optimist robs himself of the joy of being pleasantly surprised
 
avion
Posts: 2126
Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 1:28 am

RE: A Stark Reminder

Mon Apr 03, 2000 2:29 am

I think youre confusing Lybia and Iran. The bombers of PA103 were lybians.

Thanks

avion
 
Guest

RE: A Stark Reminder

Mon Apr 03, 2000 2:45 am

Avion

You are supposed to say, The bombers of PA103 are *allegedly* Libyans. There is overwhelming evidence that they are in fact not guilty of this bombing. Details to follow once the trial starts in early May (I don't want to be misquoted)
 
teahan
Posts: 4990
Joined: Sun Nov 21, 1999 11:18 pm

RE: N754PR

Mon Apr 03, 2000 2:48 am

I agree with you on those issues you brought up, but I am still neutral on the issue. But I have one more point:

The USA, the coutry that kills it's own citizens everyday legally when they know damn well that they can never be 100% percent sure (Illinois when people were close to being executed and then stopped at the last minute, How many other cases of that were there but when the person died.)

THE USA IS GREAT BUT NOT PERFECT

Jeremiah Teahan
Goodbye SR-LX MD-11 / 6th of March 1991 to the 31st of October 2004
 
superdawg
Posts: 335
Joined: Sat Jan 22, 2000 1:45 am

RE: Iran Air A300 Shot Down

Mon Apr 03, 2000 5:44 am

Anyone ever ponder that there maybe was someone on the plane that the US needed to get rid of? Just a thought.
 
Guest

RE: Iran Air A300 Shot Down

Mon Apr 03, 2000 5:58 am

Some mostly good comments by all and this has been for the most part a worthwhile discussion.

Has anyone ever considered whether or not the aircraft was sent to its demise by an Iranian government seeking to score a victory against the United States? Was the aircraft flying in standard civil air corridors or not?
 
Guest

RE: Iran Air A300 Shot Down

Mon Apr 03, 2000 6:28 am

Why do people insist on thinking that the Iranians would send people to their deaths, just to get back at the U.S. I think it has been shown that the Iranians, whilst some may be fundamentalist (but don't you have those guys in the US too), are generally a peace-loving people. What kind of victory would the Iranian government gain by doing this. In fact, it has to be remembered that the Iranians were holding hostages in Lebanon at the time, and that the shooting down of the IR Airbus, in fact, delayed touch-and-go negotiations on their release for quite some time.

If the US did in fact shoot down the plane to kill one person who needed to be taken out, this is an absolute disgrace.

The plane, as far as I can ascertain, was in fact within Iranian airspace, and it has been admitted (somewhat by pressure) by the US, that Vincennes was in fact inside Iranian territorial waters at the time. So whether the plane was within normal corridors or not, is totally irrelevant. What should be answered, is why Vincennes broke international law by being inside another's territorial waters (war or no war, it is still against the law).
 
Guest

RE: Iran Air A300 Shot Down

Mon Apr 03, 2000 6:51 am

Even if the Vincennes was in Iranian territorial waters, and I have yet to be convinced of that, this was still an accident and not a deliberate effort to kill a bunch of civilians. You make it sound as if straying off course was part and parcel of a concerted attempt to kill those people. Your point about legality is useless Brissie---Iran had violated the territorial waters of almost every country in the region with its mining campaign that year. Is it your contention that had the Vincennes been in International waters, this accident could have been averted? Wouldn't the Airbus still have shown up on radar screens?

>>Why do people insist on thinking that the Iranians would send people to their deaths, just to get back at the U.S.<<

It was an innocent question that speaks volumes about the amount of mystery that still surrounds the affair. And it is not entirely outside the realm of possibility, is it? Iran had been absolutely humiliated by both the US and Iraq during the war and was unable to strike back effectively through conventional means.

>>I think it has been shown that the Iranians, whilst some may be fundamentalist (but don't you have those guys in the US too), are generally a peace-loving people.<<

Not relevant. Somehow the Iranian government got itself into a war with Iraq and it chose to persue its defense in a way that directly threatened the territorial interests of the United States.

>>What kind of victory would the Iranian government gain by doing this.>>

Embarass the US government and make US foreign policy appear as a misguided attempt at world hegemony. Perhaps erode the support of US military actions in the region by the other countries? Any number of possibilities... Accident or no, this objective was acheived. See above post about Iran's ineffective attempts to fight back using conventional means. Iran has shown a great skill at striking back through non-conventional means (i.e terrorism, support for guerilla organizations.)

>>If the US did in fact shoot down the plane to kill one person who needed to be taken out, this is an absolute disgrace<<<

One person's accusation although this has been done before. I seem to remember a story about the RAF forcing down a British Airways VC10 enroute to Khartoum, Sudan in 1976 with several top Sudani military brass aboard in order to forestall an inevitable coup. It happens.

<
This is the entire argument upon which the US account was based!
 
Guest

RE: Correction To Above

Mon Apr 03, 2000 7:32 am

Sorry...that last bit was meant to read like this.

>>So whether the plane was within normal corridors or not, is totally irrelevant.<<

This is the entire crux of the argument!!
 
Guest

RE: Iran Air A300 Shot Down

Mon Apr 03, 2000 8:02 am

Gentlemen !

The shot down of this A-300 is terrible and I don't know about the military radar but, for what I know about civilian radar, the only info you have on the screen are: Position, Course, Speed, Squak, Altitude and weight category. In no way the type of A/C is described. Usualy for commercial flight, instead of the standards 4 digits code squak, the flight number with the company initial are usued (expl: AF869 for AIR FRANCE 869).
So can you tell me how the US ship has ID the type of plane and how, if they were able to see the type of plane, can they explain that an attacking A/C is operating with his transponder ON making him the ideal target ???? Make no sense to me !
Something's definetly doesn't sounds good !
Now, regardless of what happened really, I would like to remind every body that the US is not the only country to shot airliner (by mistake or not, I cannot judge with my elements). FRANCE NAVY shot about 30/40 years ago an AIR FRANCE Caravelle at sea, ITALY shot also an AIR ITALIA Caravelle, about TWA800... do you really believe the fuel tank explanation...BOEING is ready to admit that somethings wrong with the conception of the 747-100...an A/C that is flying since 1969 without having ever experiences the slicest problem with it's fuel system.... Just one question: Who is the first and more important customer of the BOEING Company ??? Not the airlines...

Cheers !
 
hmmmm...
Posts: 1959
Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 8:32 am

RE: Iran Air A300 Shot Down

Mon Apr 03, 2000 10:12 am

Avion, while the suspects may be, or may not be, Libyan, the affair had the tacit support of Iran. The US shot down an Iranian airliner, albeit by mistake, but a mistake like that is more than what it takes to infuriate a radical Islamic fundamentalist, already in an ideological war with the West over a myriad of political issues. Whether it was a Libyan national who checked in his bag on that Pan AM flight, or an Iranian, or a Syrian, or an Ali Mohamad cab driver from New Jersey, it matters not. The sympathies and motives are common.

Hmmmm...
An optimist robs himself of the joy of being pleasantly surprised
 
avion
Posts: 2126
Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 1:28 am

RE: Iran Air A300 Shot Down

Mon Apr 03, 2000 1:20 pm

About the flight. The flight never left the civilian flying corridor and was not delayed. Everyone in Dubai knew that its daily civilian flight from Bandar Abbas. And the flight always goes there. But my original question isnt answered. Was there ever any official excuse?

Thanks

Avion
 
Guest

RE: Brissie's And Avion's BS

Mon Apr 03, 2000 2:13 pm

>>>he bombers of PA103 are *allegedly* Libyans. There is overwhelming
evidence that they are in fact not guilty of this bombing. Details to follow once the trial starts in early May (I don't want to be misquoted)<<<

How dare you make this assertion after all the Western governments have been through to get Libya to release those two paragons of virtue, Fatimah and Al-Megrahi! What on earth is your "evidence"---this should be good for a laugh. AFAIK, These two beauties have absolutely no case.

>>>The flight never left the civilian flying corridor and was not delayed. Everyone in Dubai knew that its daily civilian flight from Bandar Abbas.<<

How do you know any of this information? As stated above, the Vincennes was monitoring both contoller frequencies and the civilian radio bands the entire time and yet nothing. According to your logic this should have happened sooner so why didn't it?
 
Guest

Avion

Mon Apr 03, 2000 2:48 pm

Of course there were plenty of excuses, but no 100% truth.
 
Guest

Barnaby

Mon Apr 03, 2000 2:54 pm

What arm of the US government do you work for mate? CIA, FBI????? Are you the only person in the world who believes a word that any government says?

<<< How dare you make this assertion after all the Western governments have been through to get Libya to release those two paragons of virtue, Fatimah and Al-Megrahi! What on earth is your "evidence"---this should be good for a laugh. AFAIK, These two beauties have absolutely no case >>>

Shit mate, how dare I, I apologise deeply. Whenever a Western government says something, in future, I will take it to be true. (just like their is no war in Laos!!)What a load of crock. It all boils down to which propaganda one is willing to believe, because that is all it really is, propaganda.

Whatever happened to innocent until to proven guilty. This is exactly why Gaddafi refused to hand over the two SUSPECTS for so long, as it would be impossible for them to get a fair trial in the UK or US.

May I also remind you of well documented cases in the US where state governments have been to hell and back to obtain the death penalty, only to find out at a later date, that the person was in fact innocent. Oh, but because the government spent so much time and money on bringing this person to trial and execution, well, he must be guilty.

I have done quite a bit of research in regards to the Libyans in the PA103 case. I will dig my stuff out (may take me a day or two, as I don't want to be misquoted at all) and will post it here. I only wish I still had the tape of an investigation which was done by a British journalist and aired in Australia some years ago.

You talk of this being good for a laugh....well, I would like to see your evidence. Of course, it will be U.S. government evidence, so it must 100% correct!

<<< How do you know any of this information? As stated above, the Vincennes was monitoring both contoller frequencies and the civilian radio bands the entire time and yet nothing. According to your logic this should have happened sooner so why didn't it? >>>

How do you know that the information that Avion gave is not correct. Were you onboard Vincennes at the time, and as such, part of the official cover-up?

****
More to follow later, when I have had time to go through some things on both the PA and IR cases.
 
Amir
Posts: 1224
Joined: Thu Dec 30, 1999 8:56 pm

RE: Iran Air A300 Shot Down

Mon Apr 03, 2000 3:32 pm

Hi,

well i don't want to get into politics, just a short note.

The Iranian victims were ever compensated.
I wonder what would have happened if it was the other way round, an American Jetliner shot down by error by iranian navy?

No further comments.

Amir
 
Guest

RE: Brissie

Mon Apr 03, 2000 3:34 pm

OK Brissie, I'll bite. I am not quite the US Government lapdog you seem to think I am, but I do reject the unsubstantiated blanket statements of which have seen many in this post. I'll be very interested to see what you can dig up on the subject of PA103. I think you should start up another post for that topic or else feel free to contact me via e-mail (see under profile). Till now I had not heard of any competing claims on the subject I like to think of myself as an open-minded human being and I can be convinced with properly substantiated arguments.

I look forward to seeing what you can dig up.
 
Guest

Barnaby

Mon Apr 03, 2000 4:02 pm

Well good to see that you, as am I, are open-minded and willing to hear both sides of the story.

You can save me a hell of a lot of work here, and maybe enjoy a good read yourself. There is a book called

*Trail of the Octopus* by Donald Goddard with Lester K Coleman. Lester K Coleman is an ex-DEA agent, who was heavily involved in DEA Middle East (in particular, Lebanon) operations. The only thing, I am not sure whether this book is available in the US or not, as:

"Under enormous pressure which the publishers will not identify or even acknowledge, Barracade Books has cancelled publication of the American release of Trail of the Octopus, according to a company spokesperson.
But now a new distributor has committed to marketing this book, and doing it in a big way. Hats off to this new company, and "stay tuned" for further information."

So here's hoping that the US censors haven't banned this book. In regards to the book, if you need further information, follow this link for the details (NOTE: This is a search of the Western Australia Library system database, but the book details will be the same)

http://henrietta.liswa.wa.gov.au/search/t?SEARCH=trail+of+the+octopus

Here is another good read

http://henrietta.liswa.wa.gov.au/search/dbombing+investigation+scotland+lockerbie/-5,-1,0,B/frameset&dbombing+investigation+scotland+lockerbie+case+studies&2,,2

Again, WA Library. The book is titled *Foreign Agent 4221*

I think instead of me quoting bits and pieces of these books (and my quotes being miscontrued), that you read them for yourself and get the whole picture (as you obviously already know half the story).

If you don't want to go to the trouble of reading these books, here is a site devoted entirely to the PA103 case, with stories from both sides of the argument

http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/5260/

I really do encourage you to explore it fully.

As with all legal cases, conjecture plays a huge part. Who is to know who really is responsible for PA103, but after exhausting these 3 sources, I really do have to lean in favour of the accused Libyans.
 
Guest

RE: Iran Air A300 Shot Down

Mon Apr 03, 2000 5:13 pm

The Pan Am bombing is no excuse for shooting down the Iran Air jet. It's cliche, but even assuming that the Pan Am bombing was a direct edict from the Ayatollah, two wrongs don't make a right. The fact remains that the US killed two hundred innocent civilians sitting in an airliner flying along a civilian corridor in Iranian airspace. The least we could do is offer an apology and compensation (which in answer to Avion's question, we never have). Heck, I would feel compelled to apologize if I ran over my neighbor's cat even if the cat was at fault! It's unfortunate, but I have come to the conclusion that some Americans are considerably more skilled at blaming the victims and pointing fingers than anyone else in the world. Just compare what the government did when the Russians shot down the KAL jet vs. when we shot down the Iran Air jet. "There is NO excuse for such barbaric behavior" screamed Congressmen after the KAL incident. Just a few years later, these same Congressmen were falling over themselves providing excuses for our own barbarism. But lest I get branded as being unpatriotic, I ask everyone to remember that not all Americans are arrogant hypocrites. It's just that the ones who are arrogant and hypocritical are especially so, and wind up in Washington. Our government makes lots of average Americans sick sometimes.
 
VirginA340
Posts: 2556
Joined: Sun Jul 17, 2005 12:35 pm

RE: Iran Air A300 Shot Down

Mon Apr 03, 2000 11:34 pm

I agree Raddog; we have alot of politicans that can be really hypocritical. When the other countries make mistakes we can really put them down with name calling and issuing sanctions; but when america makes mistakes the politicians don't admit their mistakes. This is why I never get too involved with government of any country. The politicains think they know what to do but when it comes down to it they say more and do less until theirs pressure from the general public. The families who lost loved ones should've got an apoligy and fair compesation. Accident or not they deserved a sincere apology from USA and compensation. If this were an american airliner that was shot down by the Iranians the politicians of this country would be declaring war and or forcing Iran to issue apoligies and compensation for the families or face sanctions. In the case of Pan Am 103 we issued sanctions against Lybia for not handing over the two suspects that blew up Pan Am 103. Once the trial is over and if the suspects are found guilty or not then Lybia should pay compensation to the families for keeping the fmailies and the rest of the world waiting for a long time of handing over the suspects. I understand that Mr Gadafi ( I hope I spellede it correctly) wants a fair trial but waiting for ten years to turn the two suspects over is agonizing to the families. Losing my best friend and his family on 103 was bad but the ten year wait for justice was worse on me my family and my other friends who were close. There were rumors that Gadafi ordered the bombing himself. I think at one time he was suspected of sponsoring the terrorist bombing on a TWA 727-200 in Europe killing 4 americans. If this is true then he should stand on trial himself along with the two suspects and explain to the families anfd the world on why he did what he did and look us the families staight in the eye and tell us why he took our loved ones away from us when we ourselves didn't do anything to him. The people who died were holiday travelers , US service people going home to visit their families and what about the families of the Syracuse University Students (18-24) years old who no longer have a chance to live out thier dreams because it was taken away so terribly. The area of New Jersy where I once lived in atleast 40 people in my area were on the flight when it blew up. It's one thing if terrorists are trying to kill members of the armed forces but it's another when terrorists also have no regard for innocent men, women and children who are just ordinary citizens as they went through with the plan. When the terrorist blew up the plane I guess they didn't relize the heart ache they would cause once they took away our mothers, fathers, chlidren, granparents, friends, uncles and aunts. These people were somebody just like to those who lost loved ones in Iran. December 21 1988 will be my worst date in my life when my parents had told me that my best friend and his family that my mom and dad knew since my parents came to the USA from India 1975 would be gone forever. I still get nightmares to this day on what Paul (My best Friend) went throught when his plane blew up over Lockerbie, Scotland. Hundreds of ther families arond the globe are also waiting for their justice to be served.
"FUIMUS"
 
Guest

Be Rational

Tue Apr 04, 2000 3:24 am

Wow, I can't believe some of the sycophantic postings I've seen on this thread. Talk about taking the party line, warts and all!

Come on, guys ... to any rational-minded person the facts of this incident are cut & dried -> Uncle Sam screwed up, and won't admit it.

I think it's overdue that the US Government did the decent thing and paid compensation to those who suffered loss as a result of this tragedy.

Even Colonel Qaddafi has taken a similar step ... Libya (why do people always spell that country's name wrong?) coughed up compensation recently for the families of those lost on the UTA DC10 bombing over Niger in Sept '89 -> Libya finally admitted last year that its agents were responsible.
Does that mean that they also bombed PA103? I don't know, but if guilt-by-association counts for anything (and it seems to with some forum members!), it could very well be that way. But let's see what comes out of the trial.
 
L-188
Posts: 29881
Joined: Wed Jul 07, 1999 11:27 am

RE: Iran Air A300 Shot Down

Tue Apr 04, 2000 12:18 pm

While everybody complains about the iranian victims not being compensated. I would like to point out that there has been a asset freeze and a trade embargo betweent the US and Iran since '79. I don't know if they actually appropriated money to compensated the victims or not but even if it was it would be frozen in the US. this is because to of the frozen assets..... It would take a special act of congress to change the embargo laws. Not likely with the knuckleheads we have in office.

I hate to say this but hindsight is twenty-twenty. No I don't trust the US government either. But you know what? There is a video taken on the bridge during the entire incident. It has played on the news, 60 minutes, frontline ect.... Regardless what everybody thinks about the US, those guys on the bridge thought they where firing at a hostile target. You can tell in their faces and the tone of their voices that they thought they where being targeted by that aircraft. This whole thing reaks of the same type of coverups and blame that where placed on Adm. Kimmel and Gen. Short after the Pearl Harbor bombing or the Captians of the USS. Augusta not going back for the crew of the USS. Juneau, or the Captian of the Indianapolis not sending out a distress call after it was torpedoed......Needless to say 1988 wasn't that far away from either the Stark incident or the HMS. Sheffield sinking in 1982. both cases involving those ships being damaged after being attacked by aircraft.

By the way even though the Geneva convention prohibits it. If I was flying a fighter and wanted to attack a ship.....simulating an aircraft would be an effective way to do it.
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
Guest

RE: Iran Air A300 Shot Down

Tue Apr 04, 2000 12:41 pm

And now Muammar Gaddafi is setting the moral example for the world to follow!!
Southflite, don't make me laugh.

Yes there was a coverup. Yes Iran would be bombed to bits if the situation were reversed. Yes our hawkish Republican friends that have too much influence over foreign policy are part of the problem. And yes the asset freeze and embargo make it next to impossible (political suicide) to be seen dealing with such as a regime as currently exists in Iran, except when we want to sell it weapons, right Colonel North  

Interestingly, a US Federal Court recently awarded Terry Anderson, one of the infamous hostages, more than $300 Million in compensation. So if one man's life is worth $300 Million...the IR 655 victims should be receiving about $600 Billion in compensation. The check is in the mail right?

BTW, Brissie...that book is unavailable for sale in the US. I have found someone who wants to sell it, but for $200...not sure if it is worth it. But you have inspired me and I will try to do some independent research on the subject.
 
Guest

Barnaby

Tue Apr 04, 2000 1:32 pm

Does the fact that the book is unavailable for sale in the US tell you something? If you want a copy of the book, I can always buy one for you down here and send it on over to you. Email me privately about that.
 
Guest

Another Incident

Tue Apr 04, 2000 1:56 pm

Here is another incident in which the relevant authorities never paid compensation, or in fact, apologised. This is taken from the Lockerbie incident page
-----------------------------------
At 10:30 a.m. on 21 February 1973, Libyan Arab Airlines Flight 114 took off on its regularly-scheduled flight from Tripoli to Cairo.

The plane, a Boeing 727, was being piloted by a French crew under a contractual arrangement between Air France and the Libyan national airline. After a brief stop at the city of Benghazi in eastern Libya, Flight 114 continued en route to Cairo with 113 persons on board.

As the airliner flew over northern Egypt on its approach to Cairo, it suddenly encountered a blinding sandstorm which forced the crew to switch to instrument control because the geographic features which ordinarily served as landmarks could not be discerned in the swirling tempest. A short time later, the pilot discovered that he had made a navigational error because of a compass
malfunction: the plane had missed an air traffic beacon, and he could not ascertain its current location. He radioed the Cairo air control tower with an urgent plea for assistance. The Egyptian flight controllers radioed back, giving him the information necessary to correct the plane's course and warning that it appeared that the plane might have strayed over the Sinai peninsula, which at that time was occupied by Israeli forces.

The pilot immediately corrected the course, and LN 114 was heading back to Cairo when the crew noticed two military jets approaching. The crew members expressed relief, for they believed that the jets were Egyptian fighters sent to escort their plane to safety at the Cairo airport. Such, however, proved not to be the case: the two jets were in fact Israeli Phantoms, and, before the pilot of LN 114 had been able to make out the "Star of David" markings on their wings, they had directed three bursts of cannon fire into the Boeing 727, blasting it
from the sky.

Flight 114 smashed into the Sinai desert only one minute's flying time from Egyptian-controlled territory, killing 106 men, women and children aboard.

At first, Israel attempted to deny its culpability for the tragedy. However, after 24 February when the Boeing's "black box" which had recorded the pilot's
conversations with the Cairo control tower was recovered, such denial was no longer possible. The Israeli government then did a volte-face and revealed that LN 114 had been shot down with the personal authorization of Dado Elazar, the Israeli Chief of Staff. Commenting on the decision to blow up the civilian
airliner, Golda Meir, then Prime Minister of Israel, showered Elazar with praise, and exulted, "I want to tell you that I don't just appreciate you, I admire you!"

The United Nations failed to take any action against Israel for its destruction of the Libyan passenger plane, and when the 30 member nations of the International Civil Aviation Organization voted to censure Israel for the attack, the U.S. abstained.

Would Israel have extradited the two pilots for trial in Libya ? Of course not - you see, there is a difference between certain countries among the members of the UN. Some have to follow international law - some don't.
---------------------------------

 
Guest

RE: Another Incident

Tue Apr 04, 2000 9:30 pm

I've never heard about this Tragedy. It's simply umbelievable !!! How someone could fire at an airliner plane (the B727 is really easy to ID!), unable to do any evasive action or defensive action. 2 F4 against a B727 !!! I don't know how are those brave fighter pilot ! It was probably their most dangerous day to go and fight with that BOEING !
As I am a commercial pilot I feel frustrated about that story, I can't tell you in what moud I am reading that.
I'd like to now more about it.

JFL.
 
Amir
Posts: 1224
Joined: Thu Dec 30, 1999 8:56 pm

Jfl

Tue Apr 04, 2000 10:28 pm

Yes indeed it is frustrating! how many people know about the LN 727 and the Iran Air incidents, but almost all people know about the KAL and PANAM incidents whereas all are a big tragedy. but it always matters which are the countries the planes were from!

A good frind of mine lost his parents onboard this LN727, however nobody cares
but again, supose it was an LY plane shot down over some arab countries, i bet we would have had a world war four immediately!

.........
sorry i know we are in an aviation not political forum but it is damn frustrating.



 
Guest

Brissie's Book

Tue Apr 04, 2000 11:55 pm

Yeah, the fact that the book is not available in the US DOES tell me something. That there isn't a publisher who thinks there is a market for it here. Do you actually think there is a censor who decides what will be sold here? If so, how do you explain all of the TWA 800 books on the shelves that blame the US Navy for shooting it down, killing US citizens? And for that matter, all of the Area 51 books that allege the things mentioned earlier in this thread? If I were a censor, I'd consider those worse that the Iranian jet. That said, the US should probably pay the families of the victims for our mistake. And we should get back to non-political discussions!

Who is online