CRFLY
Topic Author
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Which Airlines Are Operating 7th Freedoms?

Sun Mar 06, 2005 5:50 am

We had this discussion in class the other week about how many airlines are flying the 5th freedom and found very interesting articles about it, but which ones are flying point-to-point flights under the 7th freedom? Any idea about 7th freedoms (besides the Intra-European flights)?
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B4REAL
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RE: Which Airlines Are Operating 7th Freedoms?

Sun Mar 06, 2005 5:58 am

I believe DL's CDG-BOM and seasonal FRA-BOM and soon to happen CDG-MAA flights are 7th freedom. Specifically because I can buy only the CDG-India segments.

NWs AMS-BOM and many of the NRT-Asia flights EXCEPT within Japan I believe are 7th freedom flights as well (sepcifically NGO).

UA may have a number of flights like that as well from Asia.

Whereas.... IB's now defunct hub in MIA could not sell tickets MIA-SJC and the other destinations they flew...
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1MillionFlyer
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RE: Which Airlines Are Operating 7th Freedoms?

Sun Mar 06, 2005 6:02 am

LY sells seats from LAX-YYZ that sounds like 7th freedon to me.
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Avianca
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RE: Which Airlines Are Operating 7th Freedoms?

Sun Mar 06, 2005 6:02 am

Condor flying MCO-SJO with B767-300, tickets for 198Euro including taxes
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B4REAL
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RE: Which Airlines Are Operating 7th Freedoms?

Sun Mar 06, 2005 6:11 am

Quoting 1MillionFlyer (reply 2):
LY sells seats from LAX-YYZ that sounds like 7th freedon to me.


Yep!
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QB737
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RE: Which Airlines Are Operating 7th Freedoms?

Sun Mar 06, 2005 6:18 am

Does any know where I can find a list of all of them?

I tried Google but no luck.

Thanks!

Benoît
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AeroWesty
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RE: Which Airlines Are Operating 7th Freedoms?

Sun Mar 06, 2005 6:21 am

Quoting 1MillionFlyer (reply 2):
LY sells seats from LAX-YYZ that sounds like 7th freedon to me.


No, that's still 5th Freedom traffic.
5th Freedom: The right of an airline of one country to carry traffic between two countries outside of its own country of registry as long as the flight originates or terminates in its own country of registry (i.e. "beyond rights").

7th Freedom: The right of an airline to operate stand-alone services, entirely outside the territory of its home state, to carry traffic between two foreign states.

The technical difference is whether the flight operated is part of a journey that originates or terminates in the operator's country of registry, or if it's a stand-alone service.

In the example of the LAX-YYZ flight, it is a leg on the LAX-TLV service, not a stand-alone LAX-YYZ-LAX routing.
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1MillionFlyer
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RE: Which Airlines Are Operating 7th Freedoms?

Sun Mar 06, 2005 6:23 am

Quoting AeroWesty (reply 6):
7th Freedom: The right of an airline to operate stand-alone services, entirely outside the territory of its home state, to carry traffic between two foreign states.



hmmm...they sell it as LAX-YYZ only and technically this definition above supports that. I can buy a stand-alone ticket from LAX-YYZ and both the origin and destination are not the home carrier's country.

The DL CDG-BOM flight is technically a continuation of a JFK orginating flight so I guess that does not qualify either?

intriguing
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B4REAL
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RE: Which Airlines Are Operating 7th Freedoms?

Sun Mar 06, 2005 6:27 am

Quoting AeroWesty (reply 6):
The technical difference is whether the flight operated is part of a journey that originates or terminates in the operator's country of registry, or if it's a stand-alone service.


Hmm.... I explore to disagree. By simply an airline designating a flight number should not make such a difference (5/7 freedom) on the classification of the flight. Simply becuase the airline of country A can still sell flight x going from country B to country C. Even thought the flight goes A-B-C. Can subtle operational topics like that have such a bearing in the designation.

[Edited 2005-03-05 22:37:08]
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PlaneGuy27
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RE: Which Airlines Are Operating 7th Freedoms?

Sun Mar 06, 2005 6:31 am

All NW services from NRT are fifth freedoms since their flights numbers are conencted to the US. When you change aircraft types on a fifth freedom, that is just a change of gauge.

The DL flights from Europe to India are all fifth freedoms.

Besides open markets like Intra Europe and maybe Australia/NZ there are no 7th freedom passenger flights.

There are indeed 7th freedom cargo flights.

PlaneGuy27
 
B4REAL
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RE: Which Airlines Are Operating 7th Freedoms?

Sun Mar 06, 2005 6:32 am

blank----------------mispoke.

[Edited 2005-03-05 22:36:47]
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AeroWesty
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RE: Which Airlines Are Operating 7th Freedoms?

Sun Mar 06, 2005 6:37 am

Folks ... it's 5th freedom, not 7th.

In the example of the El Al flight, it's LY106 routing LAX-YYZ-TLV. LY sells tickets between the U.S. and Canada as part of a segment of a flight that terminates in its country of registry.

Similarly, you can buy a ticket on NW from AMS-BOM that is a continuation of their MSP-AMS-BOM service.

Even though they fit the description in 7th freedoms that they are between two countries that are not the operator's country of registry, these are not STAND-ALONE services.

An example of stand-alone 7th freedom flights would be the IGS services Pan Am, British Airways and Air France used to run from cities in West Germany to/from Berlin, and the flights such as Ryanair and EasyJet operate in continental Europe between two countries with the flight never touching down in the carrier's country of registry.
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CRFLY
Topic Author
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RE: Which Airlines Are Operating 7th Freedoms?

Sun Mar 06, 2005 6:38 am

Let me give you some feedback guys... LAN applied to fly SJO to MIA, in order to connect that flight witht he MIA/SCL and the MIA/LIM flights... that was a 7th freedom that LAN asked the costarican governement, which of course they didn't get... The main reason for this are the Bilateral Agreements between countries, as they can have unlimited 5th freedoms but not 7th ones... Otherwise LAN would compete with TACA and AA on the MIA route... The CR government had no problem if LAN wanted to fly from SCL to MIA with an intermediate stop in SJO and give 5th freedoms to LAN, but not a stand-alone SJO/MIA flight...
Back to my topic, I think just the Intra-European flights have been awarded with 7th freedoms, as those countries have Multilateral Agreements...
Thanks for you feedback guys, great discussion!!!
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B747-437B
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RE: Which Airlines Are Operating 7th Freedoms?

Sun Mar 06, 2005 6:42 am

Quoting B4real (reply 8):
By simply an airline designating a flight number should not make such a difference (5/7 freedom) on the classification of the flight


Actually, that is exactly what makes the difference for all practical purposes.

As long as the number of flights from your home country to the intermediate point are equal to or greater than the number from intermediate point to beyond point, you are operating as 5th freedoms.

The moment the latter exceed the former (including "change of guage" situations such as IB's former MIA mini-hub), then you start dabbling in 7th freedoms.
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B4REAL
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RE: Which Airlines Are Operating 7th Freedoms?

Sun Mar 06, 2005 6:46 am

Thanks for the clarification B747-437B.
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capri
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RE: Which Airlines Are Operating 7th Freedoms?

Sun Mar 06, 2005 6:49 am

Before the routes got busier for RAM and have seperate flights, they used to do CMN-JFK-YMX-JFK-CMN and you can buy tickets JFK-YMX-JFK return, would that classify as 5th or 7th freedom, flight AT204 was JFK-YMX and AT205 was YMX-JFK, and on low seasons they used to have CMN-JFK-YMX-CMN without returning to JFK as AT202 CMN-JFK and AT203 JFK-YMX-CMN.
 
jeffrysky
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RE: Which Airlines Are Operating 7th Freedoms?

Sun Mar 06, 2005 6:20 pm

Capri : that still counts as a 5th freedom flight as the flight originated from Casablanca. You do not take the definition of 7th freedom from the passenger's perspective i.e. a passenger purchasing a LAX-YYZ-LAX ticket on a LAX-TLV route. The definition of 5th/7th freedom is determined by looking at the entire flight route, from origin to final destination.

I think very few carriers operate a 7th freedom service. It would mean setting up a separate fleet of aircraft and crewbase in a foreign land. If I am not wrong, Iberia used to ( or still do ? ) operate a fleet of A320s between Miami and Latin America. Those are 7th freedom flights .. unless those flights were meant as onward services and carried the same flight numbers as transatlantic sectors.

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