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Virgin Looking Hard For 747-400s!

Sun Mar 06, 2005 11:37 pm

In several aviation magazines, it has been stated that Virgin is looking for additional 747-400s, but Boeing is pricing them to high. In one mag, it said that Virgin wants to operate the 747-400 to Sydney starting in 2006. Does anyone have any information? Shouldn't they be able to pick up 2nd hand 744s? How many arethey looking for?
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ozvirginuk
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RE: Virgin Looking Hard For 747-400s!

Mon Mar 07, 2005 12:09 am

At this point we have a number of A340-600 on order, with another delivery having just taken place. Also, the A380 is due in 2008. It has been talked about that this may operate the LHR-HKG-SYD route, it has also been mentioned that it may receive an upgrade to 744 earlier than this, but as far as I know, no 744 on order.

Oz
 
wedgetail737
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RE: Virgin Looking Hard For 747-400s!

Mon Mar 07, 2005 12:58 am

I don't think a standard 744 can make the trip from LHR to SYD. Does anyone know if the 744ER can make the distance?
 
jacobin777
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RE: Virgin Looking Hard For 747-400s!

Mon Mar 07, 2005 1:02 am

Didn't SRB mention that VS will be eventually phasing out the 747's within the next 10 years, why look for them then?
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MidnightMike
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RE: Virgin Looking Hard For 747-400s!

Mon Mar 07, 2005 1:04 am

CX747

There should be some 2nd hand 747-400's in the desert, but, for the LHR-SYD route, maybe that can install AUX tanks? As for brand new 747 aircrafts, I find that very surprising.
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wedgetail737
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RE: Virgin Looking Hard For 747-400s!

Mon Mar 07, 2005 1:04 am

I guess it would a temporary fix considering that many airports cannot handle the A380 weight and it would take several years to be compliant. Didn't Virgin mention a delay in deliveries of the A380 last year?
 
airgeek12
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RE: Virgin Looking Hard For 747-400s!

Mon Mar 07, 2005 1:18 am

Yea I heard that too, but VS wouldn't give in because Boeing wouldn't give them a discount or something like that. I don't know why they would be looking for anymore planes if they're going to start phasing out their 744s in 5 years anyways. I guess they had a change in mind! :p

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RE: Virgin Looking Hard For 747-400s!

Mon Mar 07, 2005 1:24 am

I thought VS were planning to make LHR an all bus base by 2010/2012, LGW and MAN with the 747's?

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DeltaWings
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RE: Virgin Looking Hard For 747-400s!

Mon Mar 07, 2005 1:27 am

Why dont they just use the A346 on that route? They are basicly the same size and neither one of them could make it to SYD nonstop anyway?


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N1120A
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RE: Virgin Looking Hard For 747-400s!

Mon Mar 07, 2005 1:27 am

Quoting Wedgetail737 (reply 2):
I don't think a standard 744 can make the trip from LHR to SYD. Does anyone know if the 744ER can make the distance?


No airplane currently in production can make that route bothways non-stop with a decent load. A 744 did do LHR-SYD non-stop when they first EIS, but you would have to be empty to do it the other way. Even the 772LR cannot do bothways.

VS flies the route LHR-HKG-SYD and has been having good loads on it. Hence they want an upgrade but are short aircraft. The problem with used 744s is that the few on the market are mostly PW powered and the VS fleet is GE
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ba319-131
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RE: Virgin Looking Hard For 747-400s!

Mon Mar 07, 2005 1:28 am

From memory, most if not all the 744's stored have P&W engines, VS machines have GE, I doubt they would want a few 'oddball' aircraft.
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RE: Virgin Looking Hard For 747-400s!

Mon Mar 07, 2005 1:56 am

Remember VS has extended its existing LHR-HKG service to SYD. While it has upgraded from an A340-300 to the A340-600, VS is obviously confident it can fill a bigger aircraft on the LHR-HKG-SYD route. VS can't simply add another frequency to SYD as it isn't allowed, nor is adding a second LHR-HKG service totally viable as that requires additional aircraft, crews and slots - the latter hardly in easy supply at LHR. Using the 747-400 on the SYD service enables VS to increase capacity, but to maintain a daily service it needs THREE aircraft. Taking three 747-400s off other routes is an option, but then VS uses them where it does because it needs them, hence why it could be wanting additional aircraft.
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Crosswind
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RE: Virgin Looking Hard For 747-400s!

Mon Mar 07, 2005 4:29 am

I certainly haven't heard anything about this in the UK aviation press, and while I'd believe Virgin were looking to source used GE-powered B747s, I have a hard time believing the airline is seriously looking to obtain new build aircraft.

As a type that is most likely about to go out of production, the B747-400 passenger version, buying a new example wouldn't seem to make a worthwhile investment for the airline unless they were being offered at firesale prices. With more A340-600s due for delivery soon to potentially release B747s, and the A380 just a couple of years away, it just doesn't seem worthwhile.

Equally improbable is Boeing not moving on price for a model that is fully paid-up after 15+ years of production and a dwindling order backlog.

In any case I was under the impression that while LHR-HKG loads remain buoyant, the HKG-SYD loads (both local traffic and through to/from London) haven't been great so far.

Regards
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RE: Virgin Looking Hard For 747-400s!

Mon Mar 07, 2005 4:32 am

Quoting Crosswind (reply 12):
With more A340-600s due for delivery soon to potentially release B747s


The main problem there is that they would still have to drop capacity somewhere to do that.
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sunrisevalley
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RE: Virgin Looking Hard For 747-400s!

Mon Mar 07, 2005 5:01 am

The perfect solution is for VS to take over the ILFC lease on three of ANZ's -GE powered 400's that will have been upgraded , at least in part, to VS's interior standard. This would leave them with four 400's to do the AKL/LAX/LHR and allow them to start acquiring -300ER's earlier than scheduled.
I have no idea how the numbers would crunch ; also not sure if ANZ would want to introduce two new types that close together.
....(with tongue in cheek )
 
sunrisevalley
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RE: Virgin Looking Hard For 747-400s!

Mon Mar 07, 2005 5:02 am

The perfect solution is for VS to take over the ILFC lease on three of ANZ's -GE powered 400's that will have been upgraded , at least in part, to VS's interior standard. This would leave them with four 400's to do the AKL/LAX/LHR and allow them to start acquiring -300ER's earlier than scheduled.
I have no idea how the numbers would crunch ; also not sure if ANZ would want to introduce two new types that close together.
....(with tongue in cheek )
 
PilotJmartin
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RE: Virgin Looking Hard For 747-400s!

Mon Mar 07, 2005 5:17 am

Air Canada has one parked in the desert with GE engines, C-GMWW, B747-475
 
Navion
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RE: Virgin Looking Hard For 747-400s!

Mon Mar 07, 2005 5:20 am

If I were Boeing I certainly wouldn't give Virgin a discount of any size on a new 747. Virgin has been very heavily Airbus the past few years and discounts are only warranted for good customers who are loyal or are buying more than a few aircraft. Virgin is neither of these. One 747 isn't going to make or break Boeing so they sure as hell better get paid full price if Virgin wants one. What's the worst that can happen, Virgin stops being a Boeing customer? They already have basically left the Boeing fold years ago. Tough for you Virgin, you can't have it both ways.
 
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mariner
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RE: Virgin Looking Hard For 747-400s!

Mon Mar 07, 2005 5:24 am

Navion:

Quoting Navion (reply 17):
Tough for you Virgin, you can't have it both ways.


Nor can Boeing have it both ways. The arrogance you suggest is the reason so many customers have fled Boeing and gone to Airbus - especially the smaller airlines.

Boeing makes great aircraft, but perhaps an attitude adjustment might help with the sales.

cheers

mariner
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whitehatter
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RE: Virgin Looking Hard For 747-400s!

Mon Mar 07, 2005 5:25 am

There is also the ACMI lease on the 742 which isn't going to last forever. That takes another 744 or A346 to replace.

VS needs the aircraft quickly so forget any arrangement with NZ. They are also not averse to mixed fleets and have used 747s with all three engine manufacturers represented at the same time, so a Pratt option isn't totally out of the question. Nor would be some deal with the VS partner SQ if they have some coming available, although SQ fleet planning appears to be settled for a while.

The biggest hurdle to a 744PW would be maintenance. Their overhauler KL tends to do work with GE and RR engines rather than PW.
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imatams
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RE: Virgin Looking Hard For 747-400s!

Mon Mar 07, 2005 5:55 am

Quoting WhiteHatter (reply 19):
Their overhauler KL tends to do work with GE and RR engines rather than PW.


Do they even do RR engines?...I thought KL MX was a GE specialised facility, with ties to GE.

On a side note, off topic: Shouldn't VS do some rebranding....Virgin Atlantic Airways doesn't really cover the content anymore..

IM
 
GuyBetsy1
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RE: Virgin Looking Hard For 747-400s!

Mon Mar 07, 2005 6:21 am

Hmm. VS wants 744s. SQ is giving up its 744s.

SQ owns 49% of VS.

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jmc757
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RE: Virgin Looking Hard For 747-400s!

Mon Mar 07, 2005 6:33 am

Whitehatter, the 742 ACMi lease is ending at the end of April. As of 1st May Virgin will have a LGW 744 up at Manchester. This will rotate from time to time to allow for maintenance at LGW.
 
Ozair
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RE: Virgin Looking Hard For 747-400s!

Mon Mar 07, 2005 6:44 am

Quoting N1120A (reply 9):
VS flies the route LHR-HKG-SYD and has been having good loads on it.


Loads are only good on the established LHR-HKG route, the HKG-SYD is running very light but since we are talking about 2 years in the future hopefully loads will lift by then to allow an upgrade.
 
LRGT
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RE: Virgin Looking Hard For 747-400s!

Mon Mar 07, 2005 8:08 am

This sounds like Virgin is needs more big planes than Airbus can produce. Too bad Airbus cannot make some more -600's on the quick....this is sort of a temporary a/c shortage, which is typically quickly solved but not this time. They would normally talk to their good friends in Iceland for a great solution with a wet-lease. Too bad, AirAtlanta's operational overhead is maxed out and have nothing available for Virgin and are unwilling to expand. This is unusual but TRUE!



Quoting Ozvirginuk (reply 1):
At this point we have a number of A340-600 on order, with another delivery having just taken place. Also, the A380 is due in 2008. It has been talked about that this may operate the LHR-HKG-SYD route, it has also been mentioned that it may receive an upgrade to 744 earlier than this, but as far as I know, no 744 on order.


Ok...technically that is a DOWNGRADE! The 744 has same # of seats in all 3 classes but slightly less range and less cargo capacity.


Quoting DeltaWings (reply 8):
Why dont they just use the A346 on that route? They are basicly the same size and neither one of them could make it to SYD nonstop anyway?


EXACTLY. But I think the problem is they do not have enough -600's and the 80's won't be in for a while.

Quoting N1120A (reply 9):
VS flies the route LHR-HKG-SYD and has been having good loads on it. Hence they want an upgrade but are short aircraft.


AGAIN, NOT AN UPGRADE!


Quoting FlyCaledonian (reply 11):
upgraded from an A340-300 to the A340-600, VS is obviously confident it can fill a bigger aircraft on the LHR-HKG-SYD route. VS can't simply add another frequency to SYD as it isn't allowed, nor is adding a second LHR-HKG service totally viable as that requires additional aircraft, crews and slots - the latter hardly in easy supply at LHR. Using the 747-400 on the SYD service enables VS to increase capacity


AGAIN, NOT AN INCREASE IN CAPACITY!



Quoting N1120A (reply 13):
The main problem there is that they would still have to drop capacity somewhere to do that.


AGAIN, NOT AN INCREASE IN CAPACITY!


Quoting Mariner (reply 18):

Nor can Boeing have it both ways. The arrogance you suggest is the reason so many customers have fled Boeing and gone to Airbus - especially the smaller airlines.

Boeing makes great aircraft, but perhaps an attitude adjustment might help with the sales.


Well Said! Very True

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bill142
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RE: Virgin Looking Hard For 747-400s!

Mon Mar 07, 2005 9:15 am

Quoting Wedgetail737 (reply 2):
I don't think a standard 744 can make the trip from LHR to SYD. Does anyone know if the 744ER can make the distance?


Both can make it with a stop. Neither can make it non stop.
 
N1120A
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RE: Virgin Looking Hard For 747-400s!

Mon Mar 07, 2005 9:32 am

Quoting Navion (reply 17):
Virgin has been very heavily Airbus the past few years and discounts are only warranted for good customers who are loyal or are buying more than a few aircraft.


They are also one of the more recent takers for pax versions of the 744

Quoting GuyBetsy1 (reply 21):
Hmm. VS wants 744s. SQ is giving up its 744s.

SQ owns 49% of VS.


SQ flies with the wrong engine. They fly PW, while VS runs GE power. Same reason VS will not be a taker for a UA 744.

Quoting IMatAMS (reply 20):
Shouldn't VS do some rebranding....Virgin Atlantic Airways doesn't really cover the content anymore..


Well, the airline is based on the Atlantic and they are known as Virgin Atlantic, so no real reason to take on the expense

Quoting Lrgt (reply 24):
Ok...technically that is a DOWNGRADE! The 744 has same # of seats in all 3 classes but slightly less range and less cargo capacity.


First off, the 744 is considered VS' flagship, still, and that is something they want on one of their most important routes. Second, you wasted those exclamation points because the A346 does not have the same or greater capacity than the 744. Not one of the A346s at VS holds 451 seats as do the VS LGW birds, not even close.
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Lockheed1011
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RE: Virgin Looking Hard For 747-400s!

Mon Mar 07, 2005 9:47 am

Today I saw a VS 744 landing in LAS and let me tell you, that Bird is beautiful!
Nothing like a 747-400, is classic, huge, impressive, elegant, etc.......
The same reason why BA uses it and with 3 engines only!  Smile
 
vsmike
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RE: Virgin Looking Hard For 747-400s!

Mon Mar 07, 2005 9:52 am

Cute post. But horribly unfactual.
Look for the gradual replacement and phase-out of VS's 744 fleet.
In true European manner, VS aims to be an all-Airbus operator within 10 years
 Smile -- maybe less.
(Shame to the poster for uploading fictitious, uneducated and otherwise useless information! Honestly...)

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globetrekker
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RE: Virgin Looking Hard For 747-400s!

Mon Mar 07, 2005 9:56 am

Quoting IMatAMS (reply 20):
Do they even do RR engines?...I thought KL MX was a GE specialised facility, with ties to GE.


KLM E&M does have ties with GE, but are capable of performing maintenance on every engine type, including RR and PW. Here is the complete list of the aircraft and engine types they can handle at AMS and other stations:
KLM Engineering & Maintenance capabilities

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aerokiwi
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RE: Virgin Looking Hard For 747-400s!

Mon Mar 07, 2005 9:59 am

Hmmm, I don't think NZ is too keen to just give up its ILFC leases just yet. They haven't ordered the 773 yet so the 744s are going to be around for a loooong time. also, why would NZ want to juat hand over aircraft that it just spent $20 million a piece upgrading, to an airline that it has no interest in supporting?

I think you may have jumped the gun there.
 
sunrisevalley
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RE: Virgin Looking Hard For 747-400s!

Mon Mar 07, 2005 10:47 am

Quoting Aerokiwi (reply 30):
I think you may have jumped the gun there


I did not suggest that ANZ turn over the $20m. upgrades without being paid for them. Also, I believe that there would be -300ER slots in the production line for late 2006.
AirNZ and VS have done business before so they are not exactly strangers
and except for on the LAX/London route they are not in competition.
Of course such a move might strain the hoped for closer ties between NZ and QF!
(again tongue in cheek)
 
behramjee
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RE: Virgin Looking Hard For 747-400s!

Mon Mar 07, 2005 11:09 am

SQ owns 49% of VS and will be replacing its B 744s with B 773ERs asap as they get delivered.

Due 2 this relationship between the 2 it would be best for VS to approach SQ for used B 744s.

Obv it will be lhr-hkg-syd and not nonstop lhr-syd !!!
 
N1120A
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RE: Virgin Looking Hard For 747-400s!

Mon Mar 07, 2005 11:14 am

Quoting Behramjee (reply 32):
SQ owns 49% of VS and will be replacing its B 744s with B 773ERs asap as they get delivered.

Due 2 this relationship between the 2 it would be best for VS to approach SQ for used B 744s.


Again, the engine incompatibility would basically preclude this.
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N751PR
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RE: Virgin Looking Hard For 747-400s!

Mon Mar 07, 2005 11:15 am

Quoting Lockheed1011 (reply 27):
The same reason why BA uses it and with 3 engines only!

I had that awful feeling that this would come up... Silly
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UAMAYBACH1239
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RE: Virgin Looking Hard For 747-400s!

Mon Mar 07, 2005 11:17 am

Nor can Boeing have it both ways. The arrogance you suggest is the reason so many customers have fled Boeing and gone to Airbus - especially the smaller airlines.

Boeing makes great aircraft, but perhaps an attitude adjustment might help with the sales.

cheers

mariner


I think Boeing is sometimes misunderstood, I dont beleive they were being arrogant. Simply put they are loyal to their GOOD customers, not just anyone who wants a favor.
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LRGT
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RE: Virgin Looking Hard For 747-400s!

Mon Mar 07, 2005 12:04 pm


Quoting N1120A (reply 26):
A346 does not have the same or greater capacity than the 744. Not one of the A346s at VS holds 451 seats as do the VS LGW birds, not even close.


Comparing the capacity of a high-density aircraft (LGW 744) to a low-density aircraft (LHR A346) is comparing apples to oranges. You SHOULD compare the LHR 747 to the LHR -600.

I am sure if they had an LGW A346 it would seat the same.


Quoting VSMike (reply 28):
(Shame to thefor a poster for uploading fictitious, uneducated and otherwise useless information! Honestly...)


It is actually not that far off (if they could find them at a GREAT price it could actually be a good move). Virgin cannot expand as quick as they want to and Air Atlanta is closed to new business. Between the 346 and the 744, they can only get 747-400's cheap s/h. They NEED to be cheap since they would only operate them for a few years. Even with the cost of their interior considered, if they are cheap enough to re-sell for the same price in a couple years it is a viable option. With s/h prices for the 744 as they are now, this may be possible! They may even be able to re-sell for more!
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N1120A
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RE: Virgin Looking Hard For 747-400s!

Mon Mar 07, 2005 12:07 pm

Quoting Lrgt (reply 36):
Comparing the capacity of a high-density aircraft (LGW 744) to a low-density aircraft (LHR A346) is comparing apples to oranges. You SHOULD compare the LHR 747 to the LHR -600.

I am sure if they had an LGW A346 it would seat the same.


Again, the LHR 747s also carry significantly more passengers.
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RE: Virgin Looking Hard For 747-400s!

Mon Mar 07, 2005 1:29 pm

Quoting BAH-131 (reply 10):
From memory, most if not all the 744's stored have P&W engines, VS machines have GE, I doubt they would want a few 'oddball' aircraft.


It does look like Virgin is trying to pick up some quick long haul capacity. I too doubt they'll take an P&W aircraft unless GE sells the engines and recirtifies the airframe cheap (recall the pw4056 and CF-80C2 fit in the EXACT same nacelle, Pratt's mistake. oops)

Quoting Mariner (reply 18):

Boeing makes great aircraft, but perhaps an attitude adjustment might help with the sales.


Unfortunately, until Boeing stops acting like they're "entitled" to a certain part of the market, they will continue to lose sales. Part of the improvement is changing to more flexible lines (e.g., ramp the 737 sales faster when "hot"). Sometimes Boeing still seems to think their "biggest compitition is used Boeings." (A very popular quote from their employees circa 1996.) They seem bound and determined to follow Pratt's lead in customer interactions.

Lightsaber
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LRGT
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RE: Virgin Looking Hard For 747-400s!

Mon Mar 07, 2005 1:29 pm

Quoting N1120A (reply 37):
Again, the LHR 747s also carry significantly more passengers.


A346: 45J/28W/235Y=308 Total
B744: 44J/24W/244Y=312 Total

Unless we are talking about Cessnas, NO the 744 does not seat significantly more. I would hardly call 4 seats on the largest a/c in thw world "significant." However, the A346 is BIGGER for 2 reasons:

(1) The A346 has more high-yeild seats. They take up more space than coach seats. That extra J seat takes up 3-4 economy seats and the 4 extra W seats take up 1.77 coach seats.

(2) The coach seats in the 346 are wider than the 744 and an 1/2 inch more pitch. If Virgin used 9-abreast (nearer to 747 seat width) and 31" pitch in the A346, it would be even bigger.
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N1120A
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RE: Virgin Looking Hard For 747-400s!

Mon Mar 07, 2005 1:39 pm

>B744: 44J/24W/244Y=312<

Um, that 744 number is not correct. They are 44J/32W/300Y which comes out to 376, not 312.

[Edited 2005-03-07 05:49:12]
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gigneil
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RE: Virgin Looking Hard For 747-400s!

Mon Mar 07, 2005 1:40 pm

Virgin's coach seats are the same width in the 744 and the 346, and the pitch is 32" already.

The 747-400 has a LARGE amount more floor space than an A346. I don't understand where you got those numbers from.

N
 
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mariner
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RE: Virgin Looking Hard For 747-400s!

Mon Mar 07, 2005 1:46 pm

Quoting UAMAYBACH1239 (reply 35):
I think Boeing is sometimes misunderstood, I dont beleive they were being arrogant. Simply put they are loyal to their GOOD customers, not just anyone who wants a favor.


But they are not loyal to their "good" customers. They may be loyal to their BIG customers.

There are several examples of good, loyal Boeing customers who went to them for a deal and got a big kiss off - take it or leave it - from Boeing.

Easyjet, Frontier and Spirit all decided to leave it and went to Airbus instead, and those customers, once lost, are very hard to get back.

Many of the customers Boeing has lost are from "smaller" airlines, of which Virgin Atlantic is one.

Do you see a pattern here?

cheers

mariner
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aaflt1871
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RE: Virgin Looking Hard For 747-400s!

Mon Mar 07, 2005 2:03 pm

Quoting Lrgt (reply 24):
Ok...technically that is a DOWNGRADE! The 744 has same # of seats in all 3 classes but slightly less range and less cargo capacity.


Are you saying the 744 has less cargo capacity than the A346? If that is true, I had never heard of that before.

As for the seats, you are dead wrong with your #'s. Go to seatguru and count the seats yourself.
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doug_or
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RE: Virgin Looking Hard For 747-400s!

Mon Mar 07, 2005 2:07 pm

ummmmmmm did Spirit ever order a new Boeing? Am I missing something? Did they ever even operate an airplane with a 7 in its name? Were any of Frontiers 737s ordered new? And Easyjet? are joking? Boeing has lost some important sales competitions, but those are kind of lousy examples.
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M27
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RE: Virgin Looking Hard For 747-400s!

Mon Mar 07, 2005 2:08 pm

"But they are not loyal to their "good" customers"

Perhaps they aren't so "good" of a customer if the only thing they are looking for is the lowest price!
 
Leezyjet
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RE: Virgin Looking Hard For 747-400s!

Mon Mar 07, 2005 4:14 pm

"A346: 45J/28W/235Y=308 Total
B744: 44J/24W/244Y=312 Total"

"Um, that 744 number is not correct. They are 44J/32W/300Y which comes out to 376, not 312."

Actually you are BOTH wrong.

LHR 744 is J44W32Y310 making 386
LGW 744 is J14W58Y379 making 451

A346 is J45W28Y233 making 306.

A343 is J40W28Y187 making 255.

PLEASE GET YOUR FACTS CORRECT BEFORE POSTING.

 Smile
"She Rolls, 45 knots, 90, 135, nose comes up to 20 degrees, she's airborne - She flies, Concorde Flies"
 
pelican
Posts: 2429
Joined: Mon Apr 05, 2004 9:51 pm

RE: Virgin Looking Hard For 747-400s!

Mon Mar 07, 2005 6:30 pm

Quoting Doug_or (reply 44):
mmmmmmm did Spirit ever order a new Boeing? Am I missing something? Did they ever even operate an airplane with a 7 in its name? Were any of Frontiers 737s ordered new? And Easyjet? are joking? Boeing has lost some important sales competitions, but those are kind of lousy examples.


Indeed you're missing somthing. U2 has 33 737-700s (according to airfleets.net) but opted for the A319 while many 737-700s were still on order. I wouldn't call it a lousy example.

pelican
 
Planesmart
Posts: 1717
Joined: Sun Dec 05, 2004 3:18 am

RE: Virgin Looking Hard For 747-400s!

Mon Mar 07, 2005 8:30 pm

Doug_or

'ummmmmmm did Spirit ever order a new Boeing? Am I missing something? Did they ever even operate an airplane with a 7 in its name? Were any of Frontiers 737s ordered new? And Easyjet? are joking? Boeing has lost some important sales competitions, but those are kind of lousy examples.'

Well done Doug for highlighting the difference between A & B in regards to customer relations.

A sales team maintains almost the same dialogue with airlines operating A aircraft, not purchased new, as airlines that buy new. Why? Because the stronger the used market, the easier to sell new. And one day, the minnows, new starts of today, and the execs of those airlines, may be in a very different, more influential place.

B on the other hand have historically treated used B operators with contempt.

And as recently as the 80's, you might want a couple of 747's, but unless you ordered a couple of 767's or half a dozen 737's you would be way down the production line.

As Mariner states, B have demonstrated loyalty to the Big 5, but not to their smaller good customers.

The times they are a changin. B's sales team has new energy. But no change yet for operators of 2nd, 3rd, 4th hand or more B aircraft.
 
Planesmart
Posts: 1717
Joined: Sun Dec 05, 2004 3:18 am

RE: Virgin Looking Hard For 747-400s!

Mon Mar 07, 2005 8:43 pm

If VS has asked B for a 744 firesale price, it will be with the knowledge of the SQ board.

B should not under-estimate the current and future value of the VS / SQ relationship.

Are VS & SQ playing good cop bad cop respectively with A & B?

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