Businessboy
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SAS Desperatly Trying To Get 767's

Mon Mar 07, 2005 12:21 am

I just read this from a norwegian newspaper. It seems that SAS is desperatly trying to find suitable 767's to reopen the OSLO-NEW YORK route.

Here is the article: www.vg.no/pub/vgart.hbs?artid=269182 ( in norwegian )

It also states how Continental Airlines is having a great sucess on the route.
And if you guys ask me, i think just getting a 767's for one route, sounds kinda stupid, its gonna cost alot of money....... SAS even states that they regretted that they got rid of their 767's soo fast.


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BBoy
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Starlionblue
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RE: SAS Desperatly Trying To Get 767's

Mon Mar 07, 2005 12:23 am

SAS, the experts in confusing fleet decisions...
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
AeroWesty
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RE: SAS Desperatly Trying To Get 767's

Mon Mar 07, 2005 12:36 am

I'm still just as confused as I was on this issue when it first came up a couple of months ago. Unless this site in wrong, SAS still has one 767 stored that was returned by Avianca:

http://www.planemad.net/Production_List/Boeing/767/24357.html

How many 767s do they need to operate Oslo-New York services?
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CX747
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RE: SAS Desperatly Trying To Get 767's

Mon Mar 07, 2005 12:40 am

If this is true, then one really has to wonder if the actual CEO's are better at running the airlines or us. They just went through a massive long haul fleet renewal and practically dumped every Boeing widebody they had. Now they want the Boeings back!!!!! I have to say that I loved seeing 3 plu 767-300ERs at EWR on a daily basis back in the late 90s early 2000s.
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Businessboy
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RE: SAS Desperatly Trying To Get 767's

Mon Mar 07, 2005 12:40 am

Im Pretty Confused Myself........
To who did SAS sell its 767-300's to?
BbOy  Smile

[Edited 2005-03-06 16:41:55]
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mauriceb
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RE: SAS Desperatly Trying To Get 767's

Mon Mar 07, 2005 12:42 am

they might get the HollandExel 767's back wich are ex SAS
 
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solnabo
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RE: SAS Desperatly Trying To Get 767's

Mon Mar 07, 2005 12:43 am

Puuuhleezee!!

Whats wrong w the A333? Arent they doing a good job, or is this another Airbus bash........againe?

B767: Thanks, but no thank you.

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as739x
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RE: SAS Desperatly Trying To Get 767's

Mon Mar 07, 2005 12:48 am

Solnabo...I am under the impression the A333 is just to big for Oslo. The 763 was a perfect for this SAS market. Maybe SAS should be the first airline run by A.netters.

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CX747
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RE: SAS Desperatly Trying To Get 767's

Mon Mar 07, 2005 12:50 am

Very well stated AS739X. I don't think it would be difficulty for them to find suitable 767-300ERs to fly the routes. I assume that there are quite a few paked at Victorville in Cali!
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AeroWesty
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RE: SAS Desperatly Trying To Get 767's

Mon Mar 07, 2005 12:50 am

Quoting Businessboy (reply 4):
To who did SAS sell its 767-300's to?


This link will take you to the history and current status of the 767-300's that have been in SAS' fleet:

http://www.planemad.net/Production_L...eg=1&field_fate=1&rpp=150&search=1
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wedgetail737
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RE: SAS Desperatly Trying To Get 767's

Mon Mar 07, 2005 12:52 am

Not too terribly likely, but it would be cool to see SAS order more 767's to keep the line open. Couldn't they use 767-200ER's if there are some available in the desert?
 
whitehatter
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RE: SAS Desperatly Trying To Get 767's

Mon Mar 07, 2005 12:55 am

Quoting Solnabo (reply 6):
Whats wrong w the A333?


Probably a bit too large for the route, plus there aren't exactly fields of parked A330 aircraft of any type available at the moment! A 767 would be easier and cheaper to source.

Especially if SK can offload one of its underused A330 aircraft to BD temporarily, and ship in a 767 to cover. SK has a stake in BD and the latter is desperately looking to lease in another aircraft. The proposed LH arrangement for an A340 might not be ideal for them.

SK took a BD A332 for a while before their aircraft were delivered. The SK A333 could operate MAN-ORD, releasing an A332 for LHR-BOM. Just some rumours I heard about fleet possibilities.
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flying-b773
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RE: SAS Desperatly Trying To Get 767's

Mon Mar 07, 2005 12:56 am

The A330s that they have have around 250 seats, which seems slightly too big for the sector. Also, if there isnt much cargo on the route itself than it would be cheaper to operate the 767 for more cost savings. Guess the size of the 767 is really good at starting routes.... Way to go 767!! i love them...

regards,
 
AeroWesty
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RE: SAS Desperatly Trying To Get 767's

Mon Mar 07, 2005 12:56 am

Quoting MauriceB (reply 5):
they might get the HollandExel 767's back wich are ex SAS


In the last thread on SAS' 767's I asked about this, but no one was able to answer what the status of the Exel group was after their collapse. The websites for BelgiumExel and HollandExel both appear to be active, but all the content is in either French, Flemish or Dutch, and I'm unable to read it.

Anyone have any idea whether those planes are parked, or still running as charters for the tour operators listed on the Exel websites?

Thanks.  Smile
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mauriceb
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RE: SAS Desperatly Trying To Get 767's

Mon Mar 07, 2005 1:14 am

well the sold BonairExel, CuracaoExel, ArubaExel, and axed BelgiumExel. But TUI is about to take over the airline and i dont know if they wan't to hold the SAS crafts or take other 767's....
 
DeltaWings
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RE: SAS Desperatly Trying To Get 767's

Mon Mar 07, 2005 1:22 am

This is another reason, why Airbus should replace the A300 line. The A330 is just to big for certain routes, whereas the A300 size (763) would be perfect. SAS would mostlikely be a customer for it.


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RE: SAS Desperatly Trying To Get 767's

Mon Mar 07, 2005 2:13 am

Can't SAS get an A330-200 for the Oslo-Newark route? If an A330-200 is too big, can't they get an A310 or an A300 from somewhere? And shouldn't they consider getting an A350 or two for future longhaul ops (inc. EWR) out of Oslo for which the A330-200 might be too big? What on Earth is going on at SAS?

Vad hander SAS?!!! I really think this airline should get their act together. It's been confusing me lately  Smile
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N1120A
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RE: SAS Desperatly Trying To Get 767's

Mon Mar 07, 2005 2:18 am

Quoting AeroWesty (reply 2):
How many 767s do they need to operate Oslo-New York services?


Theoretically, just 1, but it is always good to have a spare.

Quoting Solnabo (reply 6):
Whats wrong w the A333?


Well, it is bigger, heavier and uses much more fuel than the 763. OSL-EWR is not the most heavily traveled route and CO is using a 752 on the route. An A333, or even A332 would be an absolute waste of capacity.
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sk945
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RE: SAS Desperatly Trying To Get 767's

Mon Mar 07, 2005 2:24 am

There are a lot of rurmors (as usal). SAS have talked to Icelandair about leasing one or more B757 from them, to use on USA routes during the winter season. Also, there are a lot of rumors saying that SAS would bring back a couple of B763 to be used to open new routes. Ex ARN to Asia but also other new routes.

The A333/A343 could be to large and SAS have no money, but there are no used Airbuses around for SAS to buy. I thought that SAS stil own a couple of the stored B767. If so, its much cheaper to put them in traffic again.
 
N1120A
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RE: SAS Desperatly Trying To Get 767's

Mon Mar 07, 2005 2:29 am

Quoting DeltaWings (reply 15):
This is another reason, why Airbus should replace the A300 line. The A330 is just to big for certain routes, whereas the A300 size (763) would be perfect.


The A300 is also heavier than the 763 and does not have the same kind of range to allow for flexibility.
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heisan67
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RE: SAS Desperatly Trying To Get 767's

Mon Mar 07, 2005 3:04 am

SAS is looking for about 5 aircrafts B757/767 in order to expand their route network. 10 months after closing their OSL-EWR they suddenly find it interesting again.... Note that CO opened a daily nonstop service just days after SAS pulled out. During winter they have operated 3 weekly flights. According to CO the service is doing very well. SAS didn't do a very good job...since they 10 months afterwards finds it possible to restart the service again.
SAS is desperate to get a longhaul route out of Oslo after CO started their service.
 
godbless
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RE: SAS Desperatly Trying To Get 767's

Mon Mar 07, 2005 3:16 am

SAS wouldn't be the first airline to retire a type from the fleet and then reintroduce it again... Air Canada and the L1011, Lufthansa and the 747-200,... But in SAS's case it would have really been better if they had kept them. What I really don't get is why they did not want to use the 767 for expansion after they got the A330/A340 fleet, after all the order was placed when things still looked really good in the Aviation scene.

But then again, wouldn't it be boring if there weren't any airlines that brighten up the scene with their fleet? After all it was very boring in Scandinavia for many years when basically every airline just used the MD-80...

Max
 
heisan67
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RE: SAS Desperatly Trying To Get 767's

Mon Mar 07, 2005 3:35 am

And now most of the airlines use B737.....boring!
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jc2354
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RE: SAS Desperatly Trying To Get 767's

Mon Mar 07, 2005 3:39 am

Didn't the Mexicana 767s come from SAS? Are they leased, or did MX purchase them?
If not now, then when?
 
gigneil
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RE: SAS Desperatly Trying To Get 767's

Mon Mar 07, 2005 3:43 am

Quoting WhiteHatter (reply 11):
The SK A333 could operate MAN-ORD, releasing an A332 for LHR-BOM.


I'd think they'd want to operate the 332 on MAN-ORD, and send the leased 333 to BOM. They could really use the lift on that route.


Quoting N1120A (reply 19):
The A300 is also heavier than the 763 and does not have the same kind of range to allow for flexibility.


Clearly, he was talking about a future A300 not the current one.

That being said, the OEW of an A300 is precisely the same as a 767-300ER, almost to the tonne, and the MTOW of the 767-300ER is higher by some 15 tonnes.

The A300 carries significantly more passengers and cargo, but yes it does not feature the same range.

N
 
FlyTheFlag
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RE: SAS Desperatly Trying To Get 767's

Mon Mar 07, 2005 3:44 am

Yesterday at Washington/Dulles, saw a SAS flight to Copenhagen using a United B767-300. Is it some sort of lease arrangement? There were SAS employees boarding the flight, with a SAS flight number (and United 9XXX series codeshare number).
 
heisan67
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RE: SAS Desperatly Trying To Get 767's

Mon Mar 07, 2005 3:47 am

Since SAS do not have enough aircrafts United aircraft is used on this servive...I belive untill March.
 
N1120A
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RE: SAS Desperatly Trying To Get 767's

Mon Mar 07, 2005 3:48 am

Quoting FlyTheFlag (reply 25):
Yesterday at Washington/Dulles, saw a SAS flight to Copenhagen using a United B767-300. Is it some sort of lease arrangement? There were SAS employees boarding the flight, with a SAS flight number (and United 9XXX series codeshare number).


It is a wet lease that has been discussed a bunch on A.net. SAS (again, because of the short-sighted retirement of the 767s) is short aircraft due to MX, so they had STAR partner UA fly the route for them. Not a problem, since UA has a hub at IAD and 763s based there.
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EddieDude
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RE: SAS Desperatly Trying To Get 767's

Mon Mar 07, 2005 4:46 am

One SK 763ER has been leased to MX. It is a 2 year lease I believe. I don't recall how long ago the lease started.
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boac707
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RE: SAS Desperatly Trying To Get 767's

Mon Mar 07, 2005 7:09 am

767's seem popular these days. Air canada scambling to find some and now SAS...without bashing airbus...is there some value to 767's that all the airbus fans are blind to see?

There must be something....
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mauriceb
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RE: SAS Desperatly Trying To Get 767's

Mon Mar 07, 2005 7:12 am

Add Martinair to youre list, they are also searching desperetly for another 767, but can't find one that fast.

and nope, the KL's one's are already reserved by airlines like zoom and Aeroflot. even the planes that leave the fleet in 2007
 
peppes1980
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RE: SAS Desperatly Trying To Get 767's

Mon Mar 07, 2005 7:23 am

Quoting N1120A (reply 27):
It is a wet lease that has been discussed a bunch on A.net. SAS (again, because of the short-sighted retirement of the 767s) is short aircraft due to MX, so they had STAR partner UA fly the route for them. Not a problem, since UA has a hub at IAD and 763s based there.



This wet lease will end in march, and from 27 of march the route will be flown by SK and Airbus 330 once again.
 
A340600
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RE: SAS Desperatly Trying To Get 767's

Mon Mar 07, 2005 9:05 am

Are SAS the dumbest fleet planners on this Earth or what! I don't get their fleet at all!

Sam
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N1120A
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RE: SAS Desperatly Trying To Get 767's

Mon Mar 07, 2005 9:16 am

Quoting Boac707 (reply 29):
767's seem popular these days. Air canada scambling to find some and now SAS...without bashing airbus...is there some value to 767's that all the airbus fans are blind to see?


Well, they are the lightest, lowest trip cost widebodies that fly. It means expansion with lower risk. They are also cheaper to aquire. There really is not a comparable Airbus product to any 767 (except the 764) when talking about the combination of range and smaller size

Quoting Peppes1980 (reply 31):
This wet lease will end in march, and from 27 of march the route will be flown by SK and Airbus 330 once again.


And the reason is that SK screwed up and did not have the fleet numbers to run their whole schedule while they had widebody C-checks going on over the winter. Another reason why A340600 is indeed right and SK are quite possibly the absolute worst fleet planners in the world.
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Lockheed1011
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RE: SAS Desperatly Trying To Get 767's

Mon Mar 07, 2005 9:35 am

SAS can easily lease a couple of 767's for now and order the 787.
Also, that EWR route was dominated by SAS until CO came along.

SK made three big mistakes;
1- Changing the CO alliance to Star
2- Changed the equipment type for no good reason
2- Letting the competition dominate their own market

SAS still has time to fix 2 out of the 3 mistakes. Good luck SAS!  Wink
 
B707Stu
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RE: SAS Desperatly Trying To Get 767's

Mon Mar 07, 2005 9:39 am

I sitting here shaking my head wondering a) how could SK put themselves in this position? and 2) there are so many desert 767's out there I don't see how they couldn't have one in a week if they really want one.
 
N1120A
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RE: SAS Desperatly Trying To Get 767's

Mon Mar 07, 2005 9:41 am

Quoting B707Stu (reply 35):
a) how could SK put themselves in this position?


That is what this whole thread is wondering

Quoting B707Stu (reply 35):
2) there are so many desert 767's out there I don't see how they couldn't have one in a week if they really want one.


The problem is most of those are 762/762ERs and are not what SK needs SK needs the 763/763ER, which are in very short supply
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flybynight
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RE: SAS Desperatly Trying To Get 767's

Mon Mar 07, 2005 9:47 am

Quote:
Are SAS the dumbest fleet planners on this Earth or what! I don't get their fleet at all!


Sam




Man, am I tired of hearing how dumb SK is with their fleet. It has become a cliche answer around here.  hissyfit 

Let's look at the fleet, which was in the middle of fleet change when 9/11 occurred.

SK was in expansion mode prior to 9/11/01.
The long-haul 767's were about 10-12 years old, and SK wanted to replace them with slightly larger and more modern planes. The 744 wasn't really an option, so it comes down to the Airbus 330/340 and the 777. SK had troubles with deliveries of their 736's from Boeing, which may (or may not) have influenced buying the Airbus. Either way, both planes were a natural upgrade with modern interiors (PTV's), range and comfort. 9/11 had a major impact on the expansion, especially SK's popular flights to EWR ( 2 flights to Denmark, 1 each to Sweden and Norway). Nothing stupid here!

The DC9/MD80/MD90's were replaced with the 737NG's. Nothing strange here. End of story. The only thing unusual is the A321. I don't know why SK when with the 321 over the 739. I have two opinions on this:
1 - SK still had a bad taste in their mouth over the early delays over the 736 deliveries.
2 - SK got a special price or deal buying the 321 since they already ordered the Airbus widebodies.

So, why would SK keep 763' hanging around? Its like trading in your old car, but then you decide to buy it back just in case... Having extra planes around is extra overhead (in other words expensive!).

I think it is important that SK sticks with flights to OSL from EWR. Afterall, SK is Norwegian too, and Oslo should be served.

Since there aren't any 787's around yet, I think buying 2 762ER's would be an excellent choice. This gives the extra comfort of a widebody which might make it the preferred flight over CO's 752 (of course, CO could also use one of their 762's).
If SK leases a couple of 767's, I hope they put in the modern interior, complete with PTV's to have commonality with their current long-haul fleet.
Heia Norge!
 
Boeing73G
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RE: SAS Desperatly Trying To Get 767's

Mon Mar 07, 2005 10:29 am

Quoting Flybynight (reply 37):
Man, am I tired of hearing how dumb SK is with their fleet. It has become a cliche answer around here. hissyfit

Let's look at the fleet, which was in the middle of fleet change when 9/11 occurred.

SK was in expansion mode prior to 9/11/01.
The long-haul 767's were about 10-12 years old, and SK wanted to replace them with slightly larger and more modern planes. The 744 wasn't really an option, so it comes down to the Airbus 330/340 and the 777. SK had troubles with deliveries of their 736's from Boeing, which may (or may not) have influenced buying the Airbus. Either way, both planes were a natural upgrade with modern interiors (PTV's), range and comfort. 9/11 had a major impact on the expansion, especially SK's popular flights to EWR ( 2 flights to Denmark, 1 each to Sweden and Norway). Nothing stupid here!

The DC9/MD80/MD90's were replaced with the 737NG's. Nothing strange here. End of story. The only thing unusual is the A321. I don't know why SK when with the 321 over the 739. I have two opinions on this:
1 - SK still had a bad taste in their mouth over the early delays over the 736 deliveries.
2 - SK got a special price or deal buying the 321 since they already ordered the Airbus widebodies.

So, why would SK keep 763' hanging around? Its like trading in your old car, but then you decide to buy it back just in case... Having extra planes around is extra overhead (in other words expensive!).

I think it is important that SK sticks with flights to OSL from EWR. Afterall, SK is Norwegian too, and Oslo should be served.

Since there aren't any 787's around yet, I think buying 2 762ER's would be an excellent choice. This gives the extra comfort of a widebody which might make it the preferred flight over CO's 752 (of course, CO could also use one of their 762's).
If SK leases a couple of 767's, I hope they put in the modern interior, complete with PTV's to have commonality with their current long-haul fleet.


It makes a lot of sense, Flybynight. In fact, Boeing Capital has a 762ER (serial #23624) and if you look on http://www.boeing.com/commercial/airtrade/reports/767.html there is a 762ER and two 763 ER's from Boeing Capital.

The 763 ER s/n 24358 is an ex-SAS and Air Atlanta machine available for lease, so I guess SAS could lease it and lease a 762ER or 763ER from another source.

It might work out for SAS, but there are ex- Air Holland ETOPS 757's out there too, according to Boeing Aircraft Trading

Maybe SAS should look at Boeing Aircraft Trading's website and then decide.  optimist 
 
galapagapop
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RE: SAS Desperatly Trying To Get 767's

Mon Mar 07, 2005 10:38 am

Most people forget that Airbus is partially owned by the SAS group, so the A321, A332/3 and A343 should have been expected but then again they had 737NG's. I think the 767 was perfect for them because of range and capacity fit nicely into their route system that was vastly affected by the season. Similar to what goes down at LOT. Maybe they could lease some 762/3's that are sitting in the desert.

Cheers!
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klm
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RE: SAS Desperatly Trying To Get 767's

Mon Mar 07, 2005 10:48 am

I'm confused about SAS and the 767's but it sure is better for them to use a 767 than a A330, the market is simply not big enough. A little of the topic, but I hope SAS doesn't come back on the osl-ewr route. I flew a lot on sk to ewr, and loved it. But continental is doing a great job! And you never know how long SAS will serve the route, they've been on and off that route for years..

-klm-
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N1120A
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RE: SAS Desperatly Trying To Get 767's

Mon Mar 07, 2005 10:52 am

Quoting Galapagapop (reply 39):
Most people forget that Airbus is partially owned by the SAS group


No it isn't. It is 80% owned by EADS, which is a combination of Aerospatiale, DaimlerChrysler Aerospace and a Spanish concern. The other 20% is BAe Systems. It is called Airbus SA because it is a Societe Annonyme, the French equal to Incorporated
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sv11
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RE: SAS Desperatly Trying To Get 767's

Mon Mar 07, 2005 11:27 am

Are most of SAS routes just too big for the A330/A340? Or is it just a few that need a smaller aircraft.

sv11
 
gigneil
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RE: SAS Desperatly Trying To Get 767's

Mon Mar 07, 2005 11:29 am

S.A.S is a type of corporation in France. It doesn't mean that SAS owns part of Airbus.

N
 
N1120A
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RE: SAS Desperatly Trying To Get 767's

Mon Mar 07, 2005 11:31 am

Quoting Sv11 (reply 42):
Are most of SAS routes just too big for the A330/A340? Or is it just a few that need a smaller aircraft.


Part of it is a need for smaller aircraft, especially out of OSL. Also, they just don't have enough planes to keep all their routes going. As it is, they are wet leasing from UA for IAD-CPH
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flybynight
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RE: SAS Desperatly Trying To Get 767's

Mon Mar 07, 2005 1:21 pm

Quote:
Are most of SAS routes just too big for the A330/A340? Or is it just a few that need a smaller aircraft.



SK's A343 flight between SEA and CPH are usually very full. I believe most of the flights to the USA are pretty full. I don't know about the long distance flights to Asia.
Remember, before 9/11, SK wanted to replace the 767's with larger planes. If the fleet had been updated after 9/11, I'd bet SK would had picked A332's.
Heia Norge!
 
copenhagenboy
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RE: SAS Desperatly Trying To Get 767's

Mon Mar 07, 2005 3:02 pm

Flybynight I stand with you. When SAS needed to replace the longhaul fleet, the 767 were to small. SAS had to say no to a lot of passengers, bacause the plane were not big enough of the demands. It was always difficult to buy a ticket to New York or Bangkok. At the same time they needed to upgrade their worn longhaul product. The A321 was also bought to feed traffic into their longhaul fleet from eg. Berlin. in direct competition with Lufthansa. As you can see there were many considerations. 1. We have to upgrade our longhaul fleet in numbers of seats and comfort or 2. should we just shut it down and rest in peace as a regional airline, feeding traffic into Frankfurt or München. Happely they choose the first.
Then came 9/11 and a lot of other problems.
Ironical, the man behind the strategy of expansion were the now so successful CEO of Austrian Vagn Soerensen.
 
godbless
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RE: SAS Desperatly Trying To Get 767's

Mon Mar 07, 2005 6:02 pm

Quoting Copenhagenboy (reply 46):
The A321 was also bought to feed traffic into their longhaul fleet from eg. Berlin.

Not that it is that important, but SK serves Berlin mainly with the DH4 from CPH and the MD80 from ARN.

From what I heard the 737-900 was too small for what SK wanted, especially regarding cargo capacity. It would have probably worked out well with the A321 if there hadn't been the downturn.
But even without the downturn SK would have trouble in the longhaul sector today as there would be much more demand for more planes used for expansion...

Max
 
airborn86
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RE: SAS Desperatly Trying To Get 767's

Mon Mar 07, 2005 6:56 pm

Well no offence to SAS, but I think their decisions are very stupid. First they get rid of their 767s which were all in perfect shape. Now they want to have them back for only one route?! One other thing, SAS is currently facing economical problems even though things have gotten better the last few years. SAS has a habit of selling tickets at a very high price. A ticket from Stockholm-Gothenburg two ways easily costs more than 1000 SEK which is about 150 dolars! The Stockholm-Gothenburg route is about 45 minutes long and most of the times the flights aren't even half full.

I personally think SAS should think twice before taking drastic decisions.
Amir the paper boy!
 
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Crew
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RE: SAS Desperatly Trying To Get 767's

Mon Mar 07, 2005 8:19 pm

Quoting Solnabo (reply 6):
Whats wrong w the A333? Arent they doing a good job, or is this another Airbus bash........againe?

B767: Thanks, but no thank you.


SAS says: A333 for the OSLO-NYC: thanks, but no thanks, prefer the B763 thank you Big grin
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