SAA-SAL
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SAS - Sack The Fleet Managers!

Mon Mar 07, 2005 6:54 am

The latest in a long line of fleet mismanagement : I've just read that SAS are DESPERATELY looking to source a B767 to cover the OSLO-NEW YORK route and that SAS regret having got rid of their 767s so quickly.

Just to put this in context, here are some of the fleet changes SAS have operated these last few years.

They Buy B737-600s to replace their DC-9 fleet but then convert some to B738s later on saying they regret having so small planes.

Then they decide to introduce a third type in their fleet when they order A321s (12 I think). This effectively means that SAS fly B737, A320 family and MD-80/90 types for short haul. Any other carrier flying aircraft from the three families.

Then after a couple A321s have been delivered, SAS publicly declares that the A321s are too big and don't want to receive all 12. Why didn't they order more B738s instead in the first place.
So, in other words they order B736s, say they're to SMALL then order A321s and say they're to BIG.

And now, after having sacked the B763s for A333/343s they say they want a B763 back.

What are these guys thinking!

Can anyone please enlighten me?
SAA B747 SP, Luxavia B747 SP
 
QantasffCL
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RE: SAS - Sack The Fleet Managers!

Mon Mar 07, 2005 6:02 pm

SAA-SAL,

I agree, but do you expect with the devastating things happening every six months 911, Bali, SARS, Iraq, Chicken fever or whateva, that these poor people could predict their requirements.

I mean in Australia look at the extreme events; Ansett collapse giving Qantas a seven years growth overnight, they put 747 on flights between cities where A has 4 millions (MEL/SYD) and B has 1 million (PER) It worked, all well but then things happen like, they go from 95% market share to 65% market share, within what two or three years, the amount of CEO's flying paid business class halfs and up until now, 60% market full service (Qantas) and 40% LCC (Virgin Blue and Qantas' Jetstar) Now, in less than 6 months the amount of carriers offering business class, or some form of premium fare and services goes from 1 airlines to 3 airlines from 3 seperate owners and operations. Qantas has a business class, Virgin Blue will have Blue Plus and Ozjet will have its 60 seat J only 732's operating.

I know this might not affect the aircraft type needed, but look at my example of the drastic events in my local market. I don't think it would be much different in Europe where Ryan air is set to be Europes biggest airline. You could not predict it.

I want to be dead by the day Ryan air and similar lead continents aviation services. Sorry its a very emotional issue.
 
mrniji
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RE: SAS - Sack The Fleet Managers!

Mon Mar 07, 2005 6:19 pm

Quoting QantasffCL (reply 1):
I want to be dead by the day Ryan air and similar lead continents aviation services. Sorry its a very emotional issue.


I will probably join you then  Wink ! This is a nightmare, them trying to sell their products on a flight longer than two hours, with their grumpy faces and "I don't know I don't care atitude"
"The earth provides enough resources for everyone's need, but not for some people's greed." (Gandhi)
 
Udo
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RE: SAS - Sack The Fleet Managers!

Mon Mar 07, 2005 6:28 pm

Quoting Mrniji (reply 2):
I will probably join you then Wink ! This is a nightmare, them trying to sell their products on a flight longer than two hours, with their grumpy faces and "I don't know I don't care atitude"


Absolutely true. With their rapid expansion they will certainly kill many (quality) competitors and we won't have any choice but FR and others in many markets. And as soon as "they" dominate we should be prepared cheap fares will belong to the past then...
If European LCC "leaders" (FR/U2) were only a little bit similar to Southwest or jetBlue...  embarrassed 


Regards
Udo
Me & You & a Plane Named Blue...
 
SK A340
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RE: SAS - Sack The Fleet Managers!

Mon Mar 07, 2005 6:33 pm

I agree that what SAS is doing might not seem very bright. I think that the problem is partly because they are state owned (50 %), partly because they are the flag-carrier of three countries.

Not long ago SAS had monopoly on domestic and Scandinavian routes and something that can be described as an oligopoly on flights to/from Scandinavia. The old thinking is still there and, as with many state ruled organizations (at least in Sweden), they seem to think that money is not a problem. Do whatever you want and if you need more money ask for them or raise the taxes.

The fact that SAS is ruled by Danes, Swedes and Norwegians might play a part. I agree that the culture in the three countries are similar but not identical. Decisions take long time and might often be compromises of every lands wishes instead of good decisions from the viewpoint of business economics That gives SAS something that you can describe as momentum and once it starts rolling down one road it is very hard to stop. That might cause some decisions like the ones we've seen.

/Micke

[Edited 2005-03-07 10:36:56]
 
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solnabo
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RE: SAS - Sack The Fleet Managers!

Mon Mar 07, 2005 8:13 pm

IMHO we´ll go the same way as Sabena did!! The 736/7/8 & 767´s was a package deal w Boeing...  yawn 

Micke  Yeah sure
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sk945
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RE: SAS - Sack The Fleet Managers!

Mon Mar 07, 2005 8:36 pm

Solnabo,
No, the the B767s were ordred long before the NG 737s. There were actually a deal for B772ER in the package for the 737s, but SAS decided, as we all know, to go for big buses instead.

I think that the management had a plan for all of this, but then they run out of money. And even if they are state owned to 50%, I don't see that the states in any of the Scandinavian countries are willing to, or allowed to, bring any money. SAS haven't received any aid for at least 30 years.
 
Orion737
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RE: SAS - Sack The Fleet Managers!

Mon Mar 07, 2005 10:37 pm

I dont know about sack the fleet managers, I would say put them in a straight jacket and send them to the loony bin. They are obviously mad, I mean what games are they playing?
 
avek00
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RE: SAS - Sack The Fleet Managers!

Mon Mar 07, 2005 10:52 pm

"The old thinking is still there and, as with many state ruled organizations (at least in Sweden), they seem to think that money is not a problem."

Bingo!

Truth be told, SK's fleet planners probably did as well as they could given the company's unwieldy formal and informal management structures.
Live life to the fullest.
 
planeguy
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RE: SAS - Sack The Fleet Managers!

Tue Mar 08, 2005 2:12 am

One aircraft type for one route? Seems a bit weird to me. Do their fleet managers know what they're doing? And what about their 767 that AV was operating? Don't they still have it? If they do, they can put that one back in service. Maybe they can rename it "Colombiansk Viking".
 
The777Man
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RE: SAS - Sack The Fleet Managers!

Tue Mar 08, 2005 2:35 am

They are apperently looking to introduce regional jets soon as well, according to an article in Aviation Week from a few months ago.....This is even more strange considering that they were the launch customer for the Dash 8 Q400 which joined the fleet just three or so years ago......

They should get rid of the M80/M90s and A321s asap. Get more 737s of various sizes and order 787s for new longhaul aicraft. Perfect size for SK as the 333/343s are too big for the OSL-EWR route.

Funny how they said the 777-200ER is too big for them and then they ordered A330/A340 which is about the same size....I think the 332 would have been a better size to replace the 763s.

The777Man
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ramprat74
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RE: SAS - Sack The Fleet Managers!

Tue Mar 08, 2005 3:18 am

SAS has been a MD customer since the start. This is what I would of done if I was the fleet manager. This is all done from my armchair.  Wink

Replace the DC-9-40's with the MD-87.
Replace the DC-9-20's with the MD-95 (717)
Order more MD-80's and MD-90's.
Order the A330/340 to replace the 767-300's.


So the narrowbody fleet would be all MD products.

MD-95 (717)
MD-87
MD-80
MD-90

Widebody fleet

A330-200
A330-300
A340-300

I have to agree. SAS has too many fleet types. It would be different if they had a lot of each type, but they don't. Some aircraft, they only have 8-10 of each.
 
Businessboy
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RE: SAS - Sack The Fleet Managers!

Tue Mar 08, 2005 3:29 am

Tooo many fleet types, seems like the manegment team like to have evry single aircraft, they want em' all. Hehe, makes me laugh..............

BBoy  Smile
LOVE CONTINENTAL AIRLINES & LOVE BRITISH AIRWAYS
 
A999
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RE: SAS - Sack The Fleet Managers!

Tue Mar 08, 2005 4:13 am

And now they are looking at the A319 as well.....
 
Scanwing
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RE: SAS - Sack The Fleet Managers!

Fri Mar 11, 2005 2:55 am

This is the current fleet of SAS (including SAS Braathens).

A330 4
A340 7

A321 8

B734 4
B735 13
B736 30
B737 15
B738 13

MD81 10
MD82 28
MD87 15
MD90 8

DH84 24
F50 6

[Edited 2005-03-10 18:57:28]

[Edited 2005-03-10 19:10:09]
 
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yyz717
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RE: SAS - Sack The Fleet Managers!

Fri Mar 11, 2005 3:23 am

And now they are looking at the A319 as well.....

Correct. Apparently, they have converted 4 321 orders to the 319. More insanity.

There were reports last year that SAS has agreed to add some used M90's to their fleet. I presume this is now dead.

The fleet planners have indeed screwed up. I could understand the switch from the DC-9/M80 to the NG fleet, but to then add the 321 is illogical. They should have added the 739 and pushed for the 739X.

For the long haul fleet, it seems they messed up again by ignoring the sub-333/343 markets that the 763 handled well.

All in all, a chaotic fleet.
I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
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KaiGywer
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RE: SAS - Sack The Fleet Managers!

Fri Mar 11, 2005 4:41 am



Quoting RampRat74 (Reply 11):
Replace the DC-9-40's with the MD-87.
Replace the DC-9-20's with the MD-95 (717)
Order more MD-80's and MD-90's.
Order the A330/340 to replace the 767-300's.

Ehm...the DC-9s are all LONG gone (some went to...you guessed it...NW)
Hard to order planes that are no longer in production (MD80/90)
330/340 planes have already replaced the 767...which is why they need some now.
“Once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been, an
 
christiaan
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RE: SAS - Sack The Fleet Managers!

Fri Mar 11, 2005 6:09 am

Update from a fleet source at SAS. They are looking at a wet lease of a 757 or a 767, but if they can find a 330 (possibly from LH) they will pick it up. The concern is that the 757 and 767 would create pilot union issues and the 757 wouldn't help sas cargo operations. They concern is that although a widebody would be good for cargo ops, it would be too much a/c for the wintertime market. There is also discussion about bringing on a 757 for the late EWR/CPH flight, as they have plans to drop it/not re-introduce it and could move the 330/340 to the OSL route. In march the united wetlease from IAD will stop and the 330 will be back in service.
"Give me the luxuries of life and I will willingly do without the necessities" Frank Lloyd Wright 1932
 
eilennaei
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RE: SAS - Sack The Fleet Managers!

Fri Mar 11, 2005 6:26 am

The solution to the SAS problem is a wheel with three hubs. Until then, the management will try different fleet configurations ad infinitum, or as long as there's some money in the chest.
 
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ramprat74
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RE: SAS - Sack The Fleet Managers!

Fri Mar 11, 2005 6:41 am



Quoting KaiGywer (Reply 16):
Ehm...the DC-9s are all LONG gone (some went to...you guessed it...NW)
Hard to order planes that are no longer in production (MD80/90)
330/340 planes have already replaced the 767...which is why they need some now.

Yeahhh. I think I know the MD-80/90 is out of production. I would of did this back in the 80's when the DC-9-21/41 were ready to retire. I do know SAS doesn't have anymore 767's. Thanks for pointing out stuff I already knew.  Yeah sure
 
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KaiGywer
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RE: SAS - Sack The Fleet Managers!

Sun Mar 13, 2005 3:16 pm

Ramprat74, sorry if I offended you  Smile It just didn't seem that you meant back in the 80s from your post. SK was my airline from I was born until I moved, now I do most my flying with NW  Smile
“Once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been, an
 
LHSTR
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RE: SAS - Sack The Fleet Managers!

Sun Mar 13, 2005 4:12 pm

I have read that SAS is trying to get rid of the MD90. Although they are cheaper to operate than the MD80s, the fleet is just too small and so it is very expensive to maintain the fleet, train the employess, etc. Getting more used MD90s seems to be rather hard, as there seem to be some compatitbility issues regarding the engines, cockpit and the cabin of other MD90s available on the market.

The A321 is in my opinion slightly different, as it is the only aircraft in that capacity range at the moment at SK, while the MD90 can be easily replaced by other types in the fleet.
 
Carpethead
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RE: SAS - Sack The Fleet Managers!

Sun Mar 13, 2005 4:23 pm

I thought I read somewhere the MD-90s are out of the fleet by summer.

Also concerning the OSL-EWR route, can SK lease a 763 from UA? Although UA no longer operates any long-haul routes from EWR.