coewr777
Posts: 420
Joined: Mon Jan 17, 2005 7:50 am

Why Doesn't WN Order Exp. Planes?

Thu Mar 10, 2005 5:42 am

..........Why use a 737 for tpa-fll a 45 minute flight.
 
KDTWflyer
Posts: 786
Joined: Tue Jun 29, 2004 12:51 pm

Why Doesn't WN Order Exp. Planes?

Thu Mar 10, 2005 5:46 am

WN is all about fleet commonality so getting exp (express?) planes doesn't agree with their operating philosophy.
NW B744 B742 B753 B752 A333 A332 A320 A319 DC10 DC9 ARJ CRJ S340
 
Boeing7E7
Posts: 5512
Joined: Sat Jul 31, 2004 9:35 pm

Why Doesn't WN Order Exp. Planes?

Thu Mar 10, 2005 5:48 am

Keep it simple, and if it isn't broken don't go of trying to screw it up!
 
1MillionFlyer
Posts: 1937
Joined: Wed Sep 08, 2004 8:55 am

RE: Why Doesnt SW Order Exp Planes?

Thu Mar 10, 2005 5:53 am

there is a lot more to the cost of operating an airplane than just the acquisition cost. Crew training, spare parts, the little seat back briefing cards...it all adds up, having only one type of plane is cost effective

I was on a WN 73G from SNA-LAS yesterday, let me tell you, it was 40 dollars cheaper and waaaaay more comfortable than a CRJ with "another" airline
Golf Foxtrot you are cleared for departure
 
Jean Leloup
Posts: 1953
Joined: Fri Apr 06, 2001 10:46 am

RE: Why Doesnt SW Order Exp Planes?

Thu Mar 10, 2005 5:53 am

What is an Exp plane?
Next flight.... who knows.
 
usair330
Posts: 691
Joined: Thu Mar 14, 2002 12:48 pm

RE: Why Doesn't WN Order Exp. Planes?

Thu Mar 10, 2005 5:57 am

I think he means Express like CRJ's, Embraer 135,145,170 etc.
 
ssides
Posts: 3248
Joined: Fri Feb 09, 2001 12:57 am

RE: Why Doesn't WN Order Exp. Planes?

Thu Mar 10, 2005 6:00 am

Have you ever flown WN on these short-haul routes?

FLL-TPA, DAL-HOU, AUS-HOU, AUS-DAL, SAN-LAS, LAX-LAS, PHX-LAS, etc. etc. are always packed. They'd need to do 100 daily flights on each of these routes just to match the demand.
"Lose" is not spelled with two o's!!!!
 
erikwilliam
Posts: 2122
Joined: Fri Mar 12, 2004 12:30 am

RE: Why Doesn't WN Order Exp. Planes?

Thu Mar 10, 2005 6:04 am

exp as EXPecial??? or as express???
WN discovered a way to make money in such a competitive market specially the American one, with so many carriers.
What they could do is create a feeder carrier, with small turboprops like
EMB-120, then we would see WN in the backyard of your neighboors
Dida, Cafu, Lucio, Roque Junior, Roberto Carlo, Emerson, Ze Roberto, Ronaldinho, Kaka, Adriano, Robinho, Ronaldo
 
boeingfever777
Posts: 1990
Joined: Tue Jul 28, 2009 1:35 am

RE: Why Doesn't WN Order Exp. Planes?

Thu Mar 10, 2005 6:35 am

First of all do some research before you post on a topic as simple as why WN flys only 1 type of a/c please.

Quoting KDTWFlyer (Reply 1):
WN is all about fleet commonality so getting exp (express?) planes doesn't agree with their operating philosophy.


The most exact, best answer for the post. Couldn't have stated it any better there.

1 type of a/c they eliminate all the costs of different parts/services/training crews etc.
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre.
 
skywatch
Posts: 851
Joined: Mon Mar 07, 2005 11:36 am

RE: Why Doesn't WN Order Exp. Planes?

Thu Mar 10, 2005 6:40 am

I go with KDTWFlyer. It is all about fleet commonality. And why try out another aircraft when your safety record is so clean. The 737 has proven itself to be a dependedent and efficient aircraft for WN. I think in the future they might buy some of Boeing's new single-aisle 737 replacements though.
------Forever Watchin' The Sky------
 
OPNLguy
Posts: 11191
Joined: Tue Jun 15, 1999 11:29 am

RE: Why Doesn't WN Order Exp. Planes?

Thu Mar 10, 2005 6:43 am

Quoting BoeingFever777 (Reply 8):
First of all do some research before you post on a topic as simple as why WN flys only 1 type of a/c please.


Hey, he's a 13-15 year old who just joined 51 days ago...

Is cutting him some "slack" out of the question?  duck 
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
boeingfever777
Posts: 1990
Joined: Tue Jul 28, 2009 1:35 am

RE: Why Doesn't WN Order Exp. Planes?

Thu Mar 10, 2005 7:37 am

OMG........please forgive me!  sarcastic 

I don't read ever member profile! get over it.
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre.
 
AA737-823
Posts: 4888
Joined: Wed Mar 01, 2000 11:10 am

RE: Why Doesn't WN Order Exp. Planes?

Thu Mar 10, 2005 7:53 am

Whoa, sounds like someone didn't get his midol tablets this morning.

Welcome, COEWR777.
WN has stated that they are, indeed, looking into regional jet-type aircraft. But, for now, it looks like they'll stick with the 737 until something better (hint hint) comes along.
 
727LOVER
Posts: 6598
Joined: Tue Oct 09, 2001 12:22 am

RE: Why Doesn't WN Order Exp. Planes?

Thu Mar 10, 2005 8:10 am



Quoting Ssides (Reply 6):
FLL-TPA, DAL-HOU, AUS-HOU, AUS-DAL, SAN-LAS, LAX-LAS, PHX-LAS, etc. etc. are always packed. They'd need to do 100 daily flights on each of these routes just to match the demand.

Does someone have numbers on TPA-JAX/FLL/PBI flights? I doubt that they are packed unless its non tag-end traffic.
I feel woozy....what did you put in that Pudding Pop?
 
MaverickM11
Posts: 15214
Joined: Thu Apr 06, 2000 1:59 pm

RE: Why Doesn't WN Order Exp. Planes?

Thu Mar 10, 2005 8:40 am

In 2004 TPA-JAX/FLL/PBI averaged about a maximum LF 60% between the three, with TPA/PBI being particularly awful.
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
flyabunch
Posts: 443
Joined: Fri Nov 05, 2004 1:42 am

RE: Why Doesn't WN Order Exp. Planes?

Thu Mar 10, 2005 8:47 am

I would imagine that economy wise, a 30-40 minute flight on a fairly full 737 is economically comparable or better than 2-3 flights on the same route with an express jet. That takes care of the logic all by itself.

I have flown OAK-RNO, which is a 45-50 min flight, several times and they are always full.

Mike
 
flyer737sw
Posts: 137
Joined: Thu Oct 28, 2004 12:04 pm

RE: Why Doesn't WN Order Exp. Planes?

Thu Mar 10, 2005 8:52 am



Quoting Flyabunch (Reply 15):
I have flown OAK-RNO, which is a 45-50 min flight, several times and they are always full.

Thats from gate to gate...Actual flight time is under 30 min...Dosen't get any better than that...Headin out there tomorrow, hopefully its nice...

Kevin
 
flyabunch
Posts: 443
Joined: Fri Nov 05, 2004 1:42 am

RE: Why Doesn't WN Order Exp. Planes?

Thu Mar 10, 2005 9:23 am



Quoting Flyer737sw (Reply 16):
Thats from gate to gate...Actual flight time is under 30 min

Your right! It is a great "E" coupon ride. You drop like a rock into RNO. One of my favorite routes.

Mike
 
atrude777
Posts: 4258
Joined: Wed Aug 13, 2003 11:23 pm

RE: Why Doesn't WN Order Exp. Planes?

Thu Mar 10, 2005 10:35 am

I flew STL-MDW contiuation from MCO, only 6 people stayed on board to MDW from MCO and the load was 130/137. quite alot of people for just STL-MDW.
Alex
Good things come to those who wait, better things come to those who go AFTER it!
 
njdevilsin03
Posts: 612
Joined: Wed Apr 14, 2004 2:03 am

RE: Why Doesn't WN Order Exp. Planes?

Thu Mar 10, 2005 10:49 am

The FLL-TPA flights are pretty packed. I have heard that the PBI flights are fare so I am sure that's what is bringing that load factor down to 60%.
717, 727, 731, 732, 733, 734, 735, 73G, 738, 752, 753, 762, 763, 777, DC9, MD80, DC10, L1011, ERJ, CRJ, ATR, DH8, A300,
 
aa777jr
Posts: 2269
Joined: Tue Feb 17, 2004 12:03 pm

RE: Why Doesn't WN Order Exp. Planes?

Thu Mar 10, 2005 11:10 am



Quoting AA737-823 (Reply 12):
Whoa, sounds like someone didn't get his midol tablets this morning.

Unecessary... ashamed 

If you know one thing about WN, their great financial success has been due to the fact they operate a single type a/c, the Boeing 737 family. Every plane freak knows this... banghead 

Regards.
A liberal is a man who is right most of the time, but he's right too soon.
 
navairjax
Posts: 478
Joined: Fri Dec 19, 2003 2:54 pm

RE: Why Doesn't WN Order Exp. Planes?

Thu Mar 10, 2005 11:24 am

I just got back from a JAX-FLL-JAX run this weekend both flights were full(although there were some pax continuing from ORF on the JAX-FLL leg). I don't know how midweek loads are but the lowest I have had on any of my FLL flights was a half full plane on a Saturday morning. (I fly down there 4-5 times a year) I havn't done a JAX-TPA since early 2003 but again I do remember a full flight on the Sunday evening.
 
sv11
Posts: 216
Joined: Tue Jun 01, 1999 6:26 am

RE: Why Doesn't WN Order Exp. Planes?

Thu Mar 10, 2005 11:47 am

Another short WN flight is MDW-IND. Having flown on the CRJ it seems like a toy jet compared to the 737.

sv11
 
ua777222
Posts: 2987
Joined: Mon Dec 22, 2003 11:23 am

RE: Why Doesn't WN Order Exp. Planes?

Thu Mar 10, 2005 4:54 pm

One good part of their 737 fleet is that they are able to run such a short route and then turn that same a/c around on a longer route that will connect to another flight. They keep to airports with major numbers of their a/c and are still able to keep their low low low prices. I have seen it happen many times with UA while @ their MX center.

A good example was of a United 767-300ER that flew HNL-LAX-DEN. It arrived DEN and required a peace for its upcoming flight the following day. The a/c would fly DEN-HNL the following morning. By the time the a/c had arrived, de-plained, and headed towards the MX the 6:00 SFO-DEN flight had boarded and departed. After the peace was located the 8:00 SFO-DEN had boarded and was being held at the gate for this peace. A bunch of dudes run to the gate to put the peace on the a/c and find that the a/c is an Airbus and isn't long enough to carry the 11ft peace.

Having the last SFO-DEN flight left and an 11ft peace of metle that needed to get to DEN by 7am (the mx needed something like 3 hours before the a/c was due at the gate) the MX guys were a bit stumped and asked the stores if the part was correct. The part was correct so they ended up sending the peace in the belly of a United 757 SFO-ORD arriving ORD just after 5am. After it arrived in ORD it would get on another 757 and fly ORD-DEN and arrive DEN by 8am. They pushed the DEN flight back the proper amount of hours and the flight took off some time late.

The point of this is that United and other airlines a like suffer the most from having to deal with set backs such as an a/c not being big enough to fit a peace to another down a/c at another airport or unpredicted peaces and flights. WN has made it so that no matter what flight, be it a 30 min hop or a 5 hour x-country that they are dealing with the same a/c, same engines, same peaces, same restrictions (to a degree), etc. To be honest I can see WN throwing back any express a/c they purchase, if they do at all, b/c of the trouble the crews and mx alike will deal with. What they have built and what they continue to use is a system that is hard to beat and only proves to help the airline.

It's b/c of this a/c that they have cash in the bank and its that reason why they buy more and more a/c. It also allows for future plans in their route map. They don't have to feel the restriction of a certain a/c on routes. Now they can't push it like US-EU routes but they're not in that market to begin with.

If anything its why would they order express a/c. They are successful with such an a/c in their feet in such large numbers. It makes working around them easier, fixing them easier, and most of all operating them easier. And they choose an a/c that has a bullet proof rep. and proves, to this day, to be one of the safest a/c in the skies today. The NG's haven't had ONE fatal accident in it's history, talk about bragging rights.

Sure there might be a need for a smaller a/c but why mess something that's perfect? If its working don't mess with it.

Thanks,

Matt
"It wasn't raining when Noah built the ark."
 
m404
Posts: 1875
Joined: Tue Nov 25, 2003 4:43 pm

RE: Why Doesn't WN Order Exp. Planes?

Thu Mar 10, 2005 8:00 pm

Southwest I suspect does not buy into the Express fable where you pay someone a guaranteed price on routes you cannot make a profit on yourself. That just means the Express carrier turns out to be more profitable than you.
Less sarcasm and more thought equal better understanding
 
swatpamike
Posts: 469
Joined: Thu May 20, 2004 12:14 pm

RE: Why Doesn't WN Order Exp. Planes?

Thu Mar 10, 2005 10:20 pm

Hello all

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 14):
with TPA/PBI being particularly awful.

True, but PBI-TPA is almost always full with people that transfer in TPA to other destinations.

Cheers

swatpamike
 
7e72004
Posts: 3440
Joined: Thu Apr 01, 2004 12:15 am

RE: Why Doesn't WN Order Exp. Planes?

Thu Mar 10, 2005 10:22 pm

To answer the original queston...Southwest is going to put an order for a few A380s  Big grin
The next generation of aircraft is just around the corner!
 
Thrust
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Joined: Wed Sep 17, 2003 12:17 pm

RE: Why Doesn't WN Order Exp. Planes?

Thu Mar 10, 2005 10:39 pm

WN in my opinion does not need the express planes...all it would do is add diversity to their fleet, which is breaking with a tradition that has served them well their whole existence, and they are doing well enough on their own...there is really no need for feeders. The 737s they own are flexible enough to take care of their short-haul and longer-haul routes.
Fly one thing; Fly it well
 
hz747300
Posts: 1906
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 2004 11:38 pm

RE: Why Doesn't WN Order Exp. Planes?

Thu Mar 10, 2005 11:10 pm



Quoting COEWR777 (Thread starter):
..........Why use a 737 for tpa-fll a 45 minute flight.

I'm going to trust WN's judgement over yours on this one. It has been said over and over again, pick your cliche:

fleet commonality
If it ain't broke, don't fix it
They've built a successful and profitable airline, what have you done?
Keep on truckin'...
 
MaverickM11
Posts: 15214
Joined: Thu Apr 06, 2000 1:59 pm

RE: Why Doesn't WN Order Exp. Planes?

Fri Mar 11, 2005 1:08 am

"True, but PBI-TPA is almost always full with people that transfer in TPA to other destinations."

PBI-TPA ran an average load factor of 55% in 2004.
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
BNAflyer78
Posts: 256
Joined: Sun Feb 20, 2005 10:37 am

RE: Why Doesn't WN Order Exp. Planes?

Fri Mar 11, 2005 1:22 am

Another short flight (45 minutes scheduled but flight time around 20 minutes) is BNA-BHM, flown 3x daily. I've taken this flight numerous times, and it too is always packed!

Ben in BNA
Long live the Widget!
 
KaiGywer
Crew
Posts: 11182
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RE: Why Doesn't WN Order Exp. Planes?

Fri Mar 11, 2005 1:33 am



Quoting Jean Leloup (Reply 4):
What is an Exp plane?



Quoting Erikwilliam (Reply 7):
exp as EXPecial??? or as express???

How about EXPired  Wink
“Once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been, an
 
futureatp
Posts: 189
Joined: Sun Feb 27, 2000 3:07 pm

RE: Why Doesn't WN Order Exp. Planes?

Fri Mar 11, 2005 4:58 am

One thing.

According to the July 2004 edition of Airways mag. P.15 "Southwest is looking at the E-jet family very closely"

This was a article that was about the new Embraer 170/190.

What I got out of the above statement is that while WN may be content with the 737 family. They dont overlook any other options.


John
 
kanebear
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Joined: Tue May 28, 2002 12:06 am

RE: Why Doesn't WN Order Exp. Planes?

Fri Mar 11, 2005 7:50 am

I'm sure just as AA are "looking into" the 'airline-within-airline' concept, WN are "looking into" regional jets.
 
SWA TPA
Posts: 1454
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RE: Why Doesn't WN Order Exp. Planes?

Fri Mar 11, 2005 8:57 am

Ok, I just have to join into this thread!
As a Customer Service Agent in TPA I can tell you first hand that those TPA-FLL flights are full. Especially the first one out and from mid-day until late evening. As for PBI, I just worked flight 1492 to PBI today. It was booked to 147 (holds 137) and I put 130 pax on it. The other two TPA-PBI remaining for today were sold out and over booked as well. These two routes do very well for us indeed. It's actually not unusual to oversell them!  crowded 

Luv,
SWA TPA  airplane 
I believe I can fly.....
 
AADC10
Posts: 1506
Joined: Sat Nov 13, 2004 7:40 am

RE: Why Doesn't WN Order Exp. Planes?

Fri Mar 11, 2005 10:36 am

One of the reasons that WN is not going to use commuter planes is related to the length of flights. The business model, as has been well documented, in addition to including fleet commonality is that they will only serve markets that have sufficient market size to fill a 737. They do not want to serve an airport has a population base of less than 1 million or so. Ideally the airport should serve an area that has at least 2.5 million people within driving distance, ignoring overlaps from other airports.

Regional jets and turboprops are intended to sever smaller towns and have relatively high per-passenger cost. Those passengers are mostly left to the legacy carriers. One of the reasons that B6 is ordering RJs is that unlike WN, they are required to serve several cities in upstate New York, in exchange for the JFK slots, so B6 flies an A320 from JFK to Syracuse three times daily. Since they have to serve Rochester, Buffalo and Syracuse, and only Buffalo is big enough for LCC service, they can cut capacity and offer more frequent flights to Rochester and Syracuse with the RJs.

WN is under no such obligation and sees no need to increase its cost by adding the expense of maintenance costs on a completely different type of aircraft and higher fixed per passenger costs.
 
MD80Nut
Posts: 972
Joined: Thu Jul 31, 2003 6:43 am

RE: Why Doesn't WN Order Exp. Planes?

Fri Mar 11, 2005 10:46 am

I've flown FLL - TPA many times and it's always full or almost full. Since I have several relatives and friends in the Tampa area I've taken that hop plenty of times.  

Cheers, Ralph

[Edited 2005-03-11 02:48:46]
Fly Douglas Jets DC-8 / DC-9 / DC-10 / MD80 / MD11 / MD90 / 717
 
sunrisevalley
Posts: 4950
Joined: Tue Jul 06, 2004 3:26 am

RE: Why Doesn't WN Order Exp. Planes?

Sat Mar 12, 2005 1:57 am

I would commend those of you who are interested to go to
http://www.southwest.com/about_swa/press/factsheet.html#Fleet
and get current on WN's operating statistics. A daily utilisation of 12.5hrs across the fleet is pretty good going I would say.
 
N1120A
Posts: 26467
Joined: Sun Dec 14, 2003 5:40 pm

RE: Why Doesn't WN Order Exp. Planes?

Sat Mar 12, 2005 2:11 am

Quoting AADC10 (Reply 35):
They do not want to serve an airport has a population base of less than 1 million or so. Ideally the airport should serve an area that has at least 2.5 million people within driving distance, ignoring overlaps from other airports.

BHM, JAN, SMF, GEG, HRL, TUS, ALB, BOI, OMA and others all don't meet those criteria

Quoting AADC10 (Reply 35):
One of the reasons that B6 is ordering RJs

They are 100 seat planes, which I don't think anyone calls an RJ (they are bigger than some DC-9s). Their builder, Embraer, certainly does not call them RJs.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss

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