flyf15
Posts: 6633
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A Little Scary... SAM Sites In DC

Thu Mar 10, 2005 3:02 pm

So I just stumbled upon an article from AOPA. The government is now placing fixed SAM sites around Washington DC now. I'm guessing this isn't new, but its a little scary, knowing as how many people accidentally violate that ADIZ.

http://www.aopa.org/whatsnew/newsitems/2005/050308missile.html



Anybody know what kind of missiles these are?
 
jdwfloyd
Posts: 799
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RE: A Little Scary... SAM Sites In DC

Thu Mar 10, 2005 3:12 pm

I'm sure that a 18 year old kid solo in a 152 will not have a SAM blowing him out of the sky without any warning. Best way to keep yourself safe is to just keep 121.5 flight watch in comm 2.
 
OPNLguy
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RE: A Little Scary... SAM Sites In DC

Thu Mar 10, 2005 3:22 pm

Gotta love this quote from the Navy PR guy...

"Lt. Cmdr. Ed Zeigler, public affairs officer for the Naval District of Washington, was recently quoted in the Washington Post as saying that the launcher is part of the North American Aerospace Defense Command's Operation Noble Eagle, a program designed to tighten national security since the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks. He says the six non-nuclear missiles in the launcher could "counter an inbound threat."

Well, I'm -so- glad he cleared -that- up....  Wink

(Hey, we missed the errant 172, but we destroyed everything in a 30nm radius...)
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
afay1
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RE: A Little Scary... SAM Sites In DC

Thu Mar 10, 2005 3:28 pm

Well, ahem, it is an important point, actually. American and Russian missile defenses theoretically have relied on nuclear-tipped interceptors in the past. The ABM system (called Galosh) that protects Moscow may still have nuclear tipped interceptors ready to fire, the idea being that a nuclear explosion could knock out incoming missiles. Since we have no remotely workable system ourselves, the pentagon has not disavowed such a system as well. Don't look up when the bomb goes off though, hehe. If you look on Yahoo or whatever, there is tons and tons of information on this topic....
 
aa777jr
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RE: A Little Scary... SAM Sites In DC

Thu Mar 10, 2005 3:51 pm

The SAM sites that protect the No-Fly Zone around the White House operate with non-nuclear heat seeking Stinger missles.

Regards.
A liberal is a man who is right most of the time, but he's right too soon.
 
flyf15
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RE: A Little Scary... SAM Sites In DC

Thu Mar 10, 2005 4:02 pm

Just did some googling and found out they're surface based AMRAAMs.... based off of a Norwegian design.
 
gocaps16
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RE: A Little Scary... SAM Sites In DC

Thu Mar 10, 2005 5:14 pm

Yup, I see them all over in D.C...especially around the Pentagon.

Kevin
 
aa777jr
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RE: A Little Scary... SAM Sites In DC

Thu Mar 10, 2005 5:44 pm



Quoting Flyf15 (Reply 5):
Just did some googling and found out they're surface based AMRAAMs.... based off of a Norwegian design

The AMRAAM (Advanced Medium-Range, Air-to-Air missile) is a air-to-air missle that is used by the Navy and Air Force a/c.

These aren't the ones that protect the No-Fly-Zone around the DC area.

As I stated, the SAM sites use Stingers, manufactured by Hughes Missile System Company and General Dynamics /Raytheon Corporation.

Regards.
A liberal is a man who is right most of the time, but he's right too soon.
 
m404
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RE: A Little Scary... SAM Sites In DC

Thu Mar 10, 2005 7:54 pm

My notes show the Stinger to be a shoulder fired missle like the ones we gave up in Afganistan during the Russian occupation. I'd bet these are Raytheon Patriots. Hopefully the newer ones that work.

[Edited 2005-03-10 11:55:38]
Less sarcasm and more thought equal better understanding
 
SATL382G
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RE: A Little Scary... SAM Sites In DC

Thu Mar 10, 2005 7:56 pm

Stinger is a shoulder fired MANPAD which does not require a fixed launcher.

Stinger was available in D.C. well before 9/11 but has since been supplemented by the new system.

Stinger just didn't have the range to make a difference in 9/11 type of attack.

regards
"There’s nothing quite as exhilarating as being shot at and missed" --Winston Churchill
 
AA777
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RE: A Little Scary... SAM Sites In DC

Thu Mar 10, 2005 10:31 pm

The one there in the picture is 10 minutes from my house.... and residents in my area arent very comfortable with it... but there's no moving it as the gov't claims that its one of a few suitable spots for it. (Planes that are routed on the potomac approach generally start filing in over the potomac right where that SAM thing is.... you see them all the time

-AA777
 
USAFHummer
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RE: A Little Scary... SAM Sites In DC

Fri Mar 11, 2005 12:19 am



Quoting Aa777jr (Reply 7):
The AMRAAM (Advanced Medium-Range, Air-to-Air missile) is a air-to-air missle that is used by the Navy and Air Force a/c.

These aren't the ones that protect the No-Fly-Zone around the DC area.

As I stated, the SAM sites use Stingers, manufactured by Hughes Missile System Company and General Dynamics /Raytheon Corporation.

You are wrong. That missile unit pictured in the original post is the US version of the Norwegian "NASAMS" which stands for Norwegian Advanced Surface to Air Missile System. It fires a ground-based version of the AMRAAM missile, as FlyF15 correctly states in reply 5.

http://www.designation-systems.net/dusrm/m-120.html

"The AIM-120 missile is also used in some ground-launched applications. Norway uses the NASAMS (Norwegian Advanced Surface-to-Air Missile System), which employs the AMRAAM missile from a six-round box launcher. NASAMS became operational in 1995. Although the designation MIM-120A is sometimes quoted for the missiles, this is not an official DOD designation."

http://www.deagel.com/pandora/?p=pm00229001

Are you still going to insist that they are Stingers? Cause you'd still be wrong...

Greg
Chief A.net college football stadium self-pic guru
 
qxq400
Posts: 250
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RE: A Little Scary... SAM Sites In DC

Fri Mar 11, 2005 12:30 am

YAHOO!!, How would you like to be on that F9 plane a year or so back when they "accidentally" violated the airspace around the Whitehouse. eyepopping 
Welcome baby Madison Renee
 
L-188
Posts: 29881
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RE: A Little Scary... SAM Sites In DC

Fri Mar 11, 2005 12:45 am

Didn't know that we had those, but Greg is correct on the box launcher.

However I have also seen Avenger Units and Stingers assigned to DC too.

Avenger is a bank of Stingers mounted on the back of a Humvee. It replaced the old Chaparrel system. Is this system meant to replace what Hawks are remaining in service?
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
flybyguy
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RE: A Little Scary... SAM Sites In DC

Fri Mar 11, 2005 8:05 am

Killing people to protect monuments or buildings is not proper at all. Though our monuments are symbols of our nation's pride and glory we should only shoot down aircraft that are an imminent danger to more lives than the plane can theoretically carry.

I see the sh*t hitting the fan if they launch one of those missiles at a Cessna and having fire, ash, and debris rain down upon one of those poor communities within the periphery of the government district of DC.

Things get far worse when you have a fully fueled jumbo jet that needs to be shot down. It will be interesting to figure where they may have burn to the ground as a result of THAT military interception.
"Are you a pretender... or a thoroughbred?!" - Professor Matt Miller
 
dl021
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RE: A Little Scary... SAM Sites In DC

Fri Mar 11, 2005 8:36 am

Greg is correct. Raytheon and GD co-developed a system called HUMRAAM, which is a HMWWV mounted ground launched AIM-120 system.

THe Norwegians, who have a serious ground based defence system with missiles and artillery have effectively turned it into a medium range SAM system that costs somewhat less than Patriot and uses different radar.

They developed this with Raytheon in order to replace their I-HAWK SAM systems. It'll probably sell very well internationally with nations that can afford this and don't need the Russian S-300 system (Patriotski).

There are USS agents posted on rooftops near the Capitol and the White House with Stingers, but the desire to down an airplane at a decent distance from the capitol rather than downtown prompted the deployment of longer ranged aircraft.

Quoting Flybyguy (Reply 14):
Though our monuments are symbols of our nation's pride and glory we should only shoot down aircraft that are an imminent danger to more lives than the plane can theoretically carry.

The odds of downing a Cessna are pretty low, as aircraft are generally intercepted by fighters prior to coming under fire. The SAMs are probably intended for inbound non-responsive fast movers. That said, the possibility of a small airplane carrying some chemical or nerve agent that would kill more people than its small size would make it seem possible. There is no thrill in the idea of shooting down an airplane, and less in the possibility that one will cause death and mayhem far out of proportion to its size.
Is my Pan Am ticket to the moon still good?
 
LY744
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RE: A Little Scary... SAM Sites In DC

Fri Mar 11, 2005 9:25 am

Um, "Patriotski"? What's that all about DL021?


LY744.
Pacifism only works if EVERYBODY practices it
 
Bobster2
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RE: A Little Scary... SAM Sites In DC

Fri Mar 11, 2005 9:44 am

The U.S. military has never accidentally shot down an innocent civilian airliner. Except for that one time they accidentally shot down an innocent civilian airliner. So I wouldn't worry about it.
"I tell you this, no eternal reward will forgive us now for wasting the dawn." Jim Morrison
 
doug_or
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RE: A Little Scary... SAM Sites In DC

Fri Mar 11, 2005 9:46 am

Russian equivelant of the Patriot
When in doubt, one B pump off
 
aaflt1871
Posts: 2166
Joined: Fri Dec 24, 2004 7:29 pm

RE: A Little Scary... SAM Sites In DC

Fri Mar 11, 2005 9:52 am

Quoting Qxq400 (Reply 12):
YAHOO!!, How would you like to be on that F9 plane a year or so back when they "accidentally" violated the airspace around the Whitehouse

It happens more than you think. To avoid bird strikes, planes have banked to the right instead of the left and penetrated the P56 no fly zone. Every major at DCA has done it a time or two.


http://www.faa.gov/ats/dca/dcaweb/p56.htm
Where did everybody go?
 
nrtfan
Posts: 33
Joined: Wed Jan 12, 2005 4:34 pm

RE: A Little Scary... SAM Sites In DC

Fri Mar 11, 2005 10:50 am

I am a reporter in Potomac, Maryland where the Naval Surface Warfare Center, Carderock Division (location of the missiles in the pic) are located.

I've done a couple of stories on the place. The first one is about the misslie launcher turning up. Unfortunatley, I couldn't get much more from the Navy people than anyone else. The official line is "hey, its your damn homeland security so you better like it."

Of course not everyone feels safer having live explosives in their neighborhood, as many letters we recieved attested.

The other story is about the cleanup of contaminated sites at the base.

As I think others have pointed out in this thread, its a Norwegian-developed NAMSAS missile launcher, part of ongoing NORAD air defenses. Others launchers can be seen near the Penatagon, and for some time after Sept. 11 near the Capitol. But as far as I know this is the only one of that type in the area.

http://www.potomacalmanac.com/articl...rue&article=42211&paper=70&cat=104

http://www.potomacalmanac.com/articl...asp?article=47034&paper=70&cat=104
 
Thucydides
Posts: 94
Joined: Thu Feb 10, 2005 10:18 am

RE: A Little Scary... SAM Sites In DC

Sat Mar 12, 2005 12:59 am

Quoting Flybyguy (Reply 14):
Killing people to protect monuments or buildings is not proper at all.

First of all, how do you know which building or monument is targeted? By your logic even if protective measures had been in place, the authorities should have let the plane that hit the Pentagon go, because it could have just as easily been targeting the Washington Monument, and heck maybe the fire code only allows 50 people in there at one time...

Quoting Flybyguy (Reply 14):
nd debris rain down upon one of those poor communities within the periphery of the government district of DC.

As for "poor" communities, and I am not sure if you are implying that DC is surrounded by economically disadvantaged people or that you are referring to those people as unlucky. Either way, I think that you are way off base and if this is what you are implying, you have never been to DC.

As for the poor soul who has aircraft parts fall upon their house, I say yes, any loss of life from an act of terrorism is tragic. However, you seem to imply that this loss would be more tragic than the 1,000 tourists that could be killed if it hit the Jefferson during the spring or summer or the hundreds of White House staff and tens of thousands of business people who work within a couple of blocks of the White House, or the mixture of our elected representatives, their staff, and the thousands of tourists who visit the Capitol every day.

As someone who was in DC on 9/11, saw the smoke from the Pentagon, had a clear view of the evacuation of the White House, had a three mile walk home, and then had to wonder if I had lost friends at the Pentagon or up in the twin towers, I find your opinions on this matter a bit uninformed.

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