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clickhappy
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757 With Winglets = Rocketship

Fri Mar 11, 2005 4:23 am

Check out this picture taken yesterday of the first 757 with winglets doing a max pro takeoff.



[Edited 2005-03-10 20:24:55]
 
Orion737
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RE: 757 With Winglets = Rocketship

Fri Mar 11, 2005 4:25 am

Gorgeous! Love the 757, its such a rocket on take-off
 
SNATH
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RE: 757 With Winglets = Rocketship

Fri Mar 11, 2005 4:25 am

For convenience:



This is one Hell of a take off!!!

Tony

PS ClickHappy, sorry, I thought you were going to leave it in its original size!!!

[Edited 2005-03-10 20:26:56]
Nikon: we don't want more pixels, we want better pixels.
 
OO-VEG
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RE: 757 With Winglets = Rocketship

Fri Mar 11, 2005 4:26 am

Sure it aint the TU-214? Big grin

Too bad the nose isn't on the picture, but hmm this doesn't really look smashing.
 
leelaw
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RE: 757 With Winglets = Rocketship

Fri Mar 11, 2005 4:26 am

Cool pic....was it taken at BFI?
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clickhappy
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RE: 757 With Winglets = Rocketship

Fri Mar 11, 2005 4:27 am

Thanks Tony, OO-VEG it is, when i linked to the photo it was fine in "Preview" but once the topic was live it looked jacked up.

Note: this is not my picture, it belongs to airframes.net and was posted with permission.
 
SNATH
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RE: 757 With Winglets = Rocketship

Fri Mar 11, 2005 4:30 am



Quoting Clickhappy (Reply 5):
when i linked to the photo it was fine in "Preview"

Yeah, I noticed that. That's why I always use the width=... option.

Thanks for posting it!

Tony
Nikon: we don't want more pixels, we want better pixels.
 
N766UA
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RE: 757 With Winglets = Rocketship

Fri Mar 11, 2005 4:33 am

The 757 is a rocket ship without winglets. With 'em you could put that thing into orbit!
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Bluewave 707
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RE: 757 With Winglets = Rocketship

Fri Mar 11, 2005 5:05 am

That's an "E-Ticket"* ride!

Referring to the old ride tickets @ Disneyland
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DeltaMD11
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RE: 757 With Winglets = Rocketship

Fri Mar 11, 2005 5:36 am



Quoting N766UA (Reply 7):
The 757 is a rocket ship without winglets. With 'em you could put that thing into orbit!

Might I ask how so? The winglets do not offer any power/thrust advantage to the aircraft. Granted drag is decreased but that is only realized at higher speeds during cruise.
Too often we ... enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought. - John Fitzgerald Kennedy
 
N1120A
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RE: 757 With Winglets = Rocketship

Fri Mar 11, 2005 6:03 am



Quoting DeltaMD11 (Reply 9):
Might I ask how so? The winglets do not offer any power/thrust advantage to the aircraft. Granted drag is decreased but that is only realized at higher speeds during cruise.

Winglets also improve lift, that is one of the main reasons they have been popular on the 737
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
gigneil
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RE: 757 With Winglets = Rocketship

Fri Mar 11, 2005 6:05 am

This one was a rocket because it was empty.

Still, a great pic.

N
 
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clickhappy
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RE: 757 With Winglets = Rocketship

Fri Mar 11, 2005 6:06 am

From the AviationPartnersBoeing website:

IMPROVED TAKEOFF PERFORMANCE

By allowing a steeper climb, winglets pay off in better take-off performance...


Thats how, DeltaMD11.
 
lehpron
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RE: 757 With Winglets = Rocketship

Fri Mar 11, 2005 6:08 am

Quoting DeltaMD11 (Reply 9):
Granted drag is decreased but that is only realized at higher speeds during cruise.

Don't listen to pilots dude, they only know how to fly it and not how it flys.  Wink Big grin

Induced drag is highest with flaps engaged, ususally take off and landing. Reducing that effect result in a higher L/D ratio and higher take off angle. You've seen pictures of th X-29 forward-swept wing concept from the 1980's? Its wings kill off any wingtip flow, in fact the drag is 29% less due to the wing arraingment -- thus massive L/D ratio.

The picture clearly shows a 30-degree climb angle, which translates to a half-gravity acceleration!  Wow!

[Edited 2005-03-10 22:11:02]
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Orion737
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RE: 757 With Winglets = Rocketship

Fri Mar 11, 2005 6:15 am

Contrast that with the 321 which struggles to become airbourne! That thing is like riding on the 'horsie carousel' while the the 757 is like taking off in a rocket!
 
Danny
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RE: 757 With Winglets = Rocketship

Fri Mar 11, 2005 6:18 am

Who cares? They are not going to do it with passengers anyway.
 
N1120A
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RE: 757 With Winglets = Rocketship

Fri Mar 11, 2005 6:22 am



Quoting Gigneil (Reply 11):
This one was a rocket because it was empty.

They rocket off when full, but that is just a stupid angle.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
DeltaMD11
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RE: 757 With Winglets = Rocketship

Fri Mar 11, 2005 6:23 am

Yes but the aircraft pictured above is not climbing like that because the winglets have been added, its a simple low weight high performance takeoff which can be done just like that in any 757 winglets or not. I'm not saying that the winglets do not provide ANY performance advantages to the aircraft, but some of the comments on this thread would lead one to believe that this aircraft is pitched up like that due to the addition of the winglets which is not true.

Edit: Oh I forgot, on what Lehpron was saying: "Induced drag is highest with flaps engaged, ususally take off and landing. Reducing that effect result in a higher L/D ratio and higher take off angle."

I realize this as well but again the true decrease in drag is only during cruise at altitude and speed. The amount of drag that the winglets reduce over the regular wingtip of a 757 in comparison with the amount of drag created by flap extension during takeoff still would not account for that much of an increase in climb angle. If anything, you're looking more at lift benefits during takeoff than power which makes such a high AOA possible. Arguably if you have a very large high-lift wing compared to a small lower-lift wing you're going to need to pitch up higher on the lower lift wing to achieve the same rate of climb as you would with a larger higher-lift wing.

[Edited 2005-03-10 22:35:37]
Too often we ... enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought. - John Fitzgerald Kennedy
 
N766UA
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RE: 757 With Winglets = Rocketship

Fri Mar 11, 2005 6:26 am

Quoting DeltaMD11 (Reply 9):
Might I ask how so? The winglets do not offer any power/thrust advantage to the aircraft.

I know, I'm just joking obviously. The 757 is a rocket as it is and, from the looks of the photo, that little bit extra lift off those winglets sure doesn't hurt climb performance!

Quoting Lehpron (Reply 13):
Don't listen to pilots dude, they only know how to fly it and not how it flys

And so long as it does fly, I don't care to know.  Big grin

[Edited 2005-03-10 22:27:49]
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lightsaber
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RE: 757 With Winglets = Rocketship

Fri Mar 11, 2005 7:27 am



Quoting Danny (Reply 15):
Who cares? They are not going to do it with passengers anyway.

Wanna bet? Ever fly out of SNA?  bouncy   Smile Seriously, with SNA being slot (noise) limited, I wonder if with the winglets if CO could replace the non-stop 737 on SNA-EWR with the 757? I'd fly that rollercoaster! (And yes, I know the 752's are planned for trans-Atlantic... I can hope!)

Note: All I know is that with the reduced induced drag on the 737 the takeoff length was reduced a few hundred feet due to a fractionally reduced takeoff speed (minor) and mostly due to improved engine out climb performance. To restate, most of the reduction in required takeoff runway length for the 737 is due to climb improvements when thrust from one of the engines is lost (recall takeoff lengths must include a little safety margin for reasonable "events."). I would assume with a wingletted 752 the same physics would apply and there would be a reduction in required runway length; probably less as proportionately the winglet size is reduced (same winglets on a larger/heavier airframe).

Has there been any data released on the required takeoff lengths? In particular, is their a change in the "ICAO +27" wet that airlines seem to buy aircraft at. (That always seemed to be the make or break condition to be analyzed...)

Lightsaber
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Starlionblue
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RE: 757 With Winglets = Rocketship

Fri Mar 11, 2005 7:57 am



Quoting N1120A (Reply 16):

They rocket off when full, but that is just a stupid angle.

How is it stupid?
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
africawings
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RE: 757 With Winglets = Rocketship

Fri Mar 11, 2005 8:07 am

I'm sorry, but this picture looks doctored to me.

Look at the tail end of the aileron. The pixels are out of alignment suggesting the positioning of the aircraft was altered!
 
DeltaMD11
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RE: 757 With Winglets = Rocketship

Fri Mar 11, 2005 8:15 am

Africawings, the picture appears like that because it has been significantly reduced in size. I'm sure it has not been doctered up.
Too often we ... enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought. - John Fitzgerald Kennedy
 
SNATH
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RE: 757 With Winglets = Rocketship

Fri Mar 11, 2005 8:35 am

Quoting Africawings (Reply 21):
I'm sorry, but this picture looks doctored to me.

Click on the picture I posted in reply 2 to get the full version.

Tony
Nikon: we don't want more pixels, we want better pixels.
 
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clickhappy
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RE: 757 With Winglets = Rocketship

Fri Mar 11, 2005 8:44 am

Here is some more info on this takeoff, from a member of the flightcrew:

"Yesterdays takeoff was not maximum performance - we were using max derate. Takeoff weight was 168,000 lbs, and we climbed at a V2 of 132 Knots to 1500 feet, with a deck angle of 33 degrees. It was a GREAT ride."
 
skibum9
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RE: 757 With Winglets = Rocketship

Fri Mar 11, 2005 8:58 am

Kind of reminds me of the Blue Angles 'Fat Albert' taking off with JATO rockets lit up!
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MD11LuxuryLinr
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RE: 757 With Winglets = Rocketship

Fri Mar 11, 2005 9:42 am

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 20):
How is it stupid?

I think he means something along the lines of crazy stupid.. not stupid retarded..

 scratchchin 
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MD80Nut
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RE: 757 With Winglets = Rocketship

Fri Mar 11, 2005 10:38 am

Oh yeah, I've flown out of SNA on an AA 757 and let me tell you, that is the only time I felt a plane put me on my back. I don't know what the angle was, but that thing was moving and climbing like I have never experienced before or since in a commercial jet. A rocket indeed!

The 757-200 is a beauty, but those winglets look like they always belonged there.  hearts 

Cheers, Ralph
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A340600
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RE: 757 With Winglets = Rocketship

Fri Mar 11, 2005 11:11 am

Amazing shot Smile

Contrast that with the 321 which struggles to become airbourne!

You haven't seen many 321's then Wink

Sam
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MD11LuxuryLinr
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RE: 757 With Winglets = Rocketship

Fri Mar 11, 2005 11:22 am

Quoting A340600 (Reply 28):
Contrast that with the 321 which struggles to become airbourne!

You haven't seen many 321's then

I agree, A346. The 321s can hold their own, as long as they're not doing US transcons..  duck 
Caution wake turbulence, you are following a heavy jet.
 
ANNOYEDFA
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RE: 757 With Winglets = Rocketship

Fri Mar 11, 2005 11:23 am

Just to add one thing originally there was a problem that we were told with the 757's and winglets.... They flew just too well! Upon landing they would just float so they had to work something out to stop this problem while in final! Looks like they did I can't wait to see them cruising around EWR!  Smile
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ltbewr
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RE: 757 With Winglets = Rocketship

Fri Mar 11, 2005 11:53 am

Do the winglets help with high altitude or hot weather takeoffs? I was last on a 757 last August EWR-SEA, with maybe a 50% load, and it took off strong!
 
757223
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RE: 757 With Winglets = Rocketship

Fri Mar 11, 2005 2:46 pm

Awesome pic--thanks for posting. Here's to one of the finest aircraft ever built!
A/C Flown: 727,737,747,757,767,777,A319/320,MD-80,DC-9,DC-10,L-1011,BAC-111,F-100,CRJ-200/700,EMB-135/140/145,SF-340
 
ChiGB1973
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RE: 757 With Winglets = Rocketship

Fri Mar 11, 2005 11:02 pm

You stole my thunder. I have been rocketing out of MDW on 757-200s and -300s for 2 years working for TZ. Full or empty out of MDW it feels like rocketing out. Great ride!

Wish TZ had winglets on the 757s. Doesn't look like that will happen anytime soon, except the ones going to work for CO!

M
 
gkirk
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RE: 757 With Winglets = Rocketship

Fri Mar 11, 2005 11:18 pm

Quoting A340600 (Reply 28):
Contrast that with the 321 which struggles to become airbourne!

You haven't seen many 321's then Wink

Actually, I would agree with the statement that the A321 struggles a bit.
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trnswrld
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RE: 757 With Winglets = Rocketship

Sat Mar 12, 2005 12:24 am

Ok to make some of you guys jealous, I flew jumpseat on a TWA 757 that was being ferried from MCO to STL. The plane was empty except for me, two pilots and about 3 F/A's sitting in back. I cant even begin to describe what it was like!!! I swear the takeoff roll was shorter than one of my normal rolls in a C-172 and without exxageration the VSI was pegged all the way until 14,000ft where we leveled off for a few. Unbelievable!!!
 
qwerty
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RE: 757 With Winglets = Rocketship

Sat Mar 12, 2005 12:28 am

I like winglets for their fuel savings.
I like the look of winglets on the 737.
But, they just don't look right on the 757.
 
teamregal
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RE: 757 With Winglets = Rocketship

Sat Mar 12, 2005 1:25 am

Quoting Qwerty (Reply 36):
I like winglets for their fuel savings.
I like the look of winglets on the 737.
But, they just don't look right on the 757.

I can see where you're coming from especially since the 757 so revered as is, but I gotta say the winglets make it look even faster and more athletic.
 thumbsup 

REGAL
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trekster
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RE: 757 With Winglets = Rocketship

Sat Mar 12, 2005 3:15 am

dont ya just love the 757

hope to be on a BA one at the end of the month to LHR. There take offs at MAN are WOW
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BEG2IAH
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RE: 757 With Winglets = Rocketship

Sat Mar 12, 2005 4:41 am

I was almost disappointed in take-off performance of a CO B753. Why almost? Well, this plane is actually pretty long. I expected that it would take a sharp angle of at least 40 degrees. It didn't because it would have suffered a tail strike. Just two seconds after clearing a possible tail strike, the plane increased the angle very much, and I couldn't believe we were at 10,000 feet when they announced it.

I also had a great ride on a LH A321. We were late from Frankfurt, and I guess we got a permission from ATC to make a rather crazy shortcut, so we got on a runway some 200 meters down the runway from where others were packing up on hold. While we were still in a curve, far from runway center line, we started accelerating, and we took off with approximately 1/2 of the runway left. This was one of the craziest I ever had, excluding B753.

I experienced some of the best take offs in my life at CDG. And it happened on every single plane I was on. One of THE best was on JU B734. It was packed, and it didn't feel any burden to take off as if we were empty. Just awesome.

BEG2IAH
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DfwRevolution
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RE: 757 With Winglets = Rocketship

Sat Mar 12, 2005 7:34 am

Quoting Africawings (Reply 21):
I'm sorry, but this picture looks doctored to me.

Look at the tail end of the aileron. The pixels are out of alignment suggesting the positioning of the aircraft was altered!

The picture is minimized to fit within the frame, expand it to full view and there is zero pixilation.
 
se210
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RE: 757 With Winglets = Rocketship

Sun Mar 13, 2005 1:05 am

It looks like the CO "winglet rocket" is doing some test flights between TUS and ELP today (3/12/05). See:
http://www.airlinepostcard.com/co_n67134_test_flight1.jpg
http://www.airlinepostcard.com/co_n67134_test_flight2.jpg
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