coewr777
Posts: 420
Joined: Mon Jan 17, 2005 7:50 am

Does UA Have The Hardest Competition At Their Hubs

Fri Mar 11, 2005 5:12 am

Lets see at Denver there is frontier, at dulles there is Indy air, at Ord there is AA and Sw at midway, Sfo not much competition there and LAX not a major hub but AA and Del. Im not saying Lax is a hub but there busy there.
 
TWFirst
Posts: 5752
Joined: Wed Apr 19, 2000 5:30 am

RE: Does UA Have The Hardest Competition At Their Hubs

Fri Mar 11, 2005 5:14 am

Don't forget NW at NRT.
An unexamined life isn't worth living.
 
coewr777
Posts: 420
Joined: Mon Jan 17, 2005 7:50 am

RE: Does UA Have The Hardest Competition At Their Hubs

Fri Mar 11, 2005 5:16 am

If we are going to include Non us places LHR not really a hub but very busy.
 
SHUPirate1
Posts: 3428
Joined: Sat Sep 20, 2003 2:53 pm

RE: Does UA Have The Hardest Competition At Their Hubs

Fri Mar 11, 2005 5:17 am

COEWR-LAX IS a United hub. And BTW, the largest carrier at LAX isn't American, Delta, or United, but instead Southwest (in terms of O&D traffic).
Burma's constitutional referendum options: A. Yes, B. Go to Insein Prison!
 
coewr777
Posts: 420
Joined: Mon Jan 17, 2005 7:50 am

RE: Does UA Have The Hardest Competition At Their Hubs

Fri Mar 11, 2005 5:22 am

I am just mentioning the competition there and i didnt want to say LAx was a hub because i was not 100% sure it was labled a hub. If i did and i was wrong i would have those people with there heads up their ass yelling at me.
 
AADC10
Posts: 1507
Joined: Sat Nov 13, 2004 7:40 am

RE: Does UA Have The Hardest Competition At Their Hubs

Fri Mar 11, 2005 5:37 am

UA was one of the most exposed to LCCs of the majors, which is why they ended up in bankruptcy. The have a large presence in the West, where early LCCs and later Southwest hit it hard. AA was somewhat protected from WN in Texas by the Wright Amendment.

While UA has little competition at SFO, WN dominates nearby Oakland, across the bay. B6 and others operate out of OAK as well. At IAD JetBlue, America West and AirTran have flights there, in addition to the IndyAir hub and there is a large American airlines presence. As at the San Francisco Bay, Southwest dominates BWI, which serves the same market.

UA says that LAX is a hub, but it sure does not look like it. All of the majors have a significant presence at LAX and Southwest now has the most flights from there. JetBlue serves the market from LGB and soon from BUR.

There has been speculation that creditors will force UA to close a hub, IAD considered the most vulnerable, although DEN is on the table as well. IAD is the smallest and weakest, but it serves the East coast, where UA is weakest. DEN, despite Frontier, still dominates the market, but as a hub, it overlaps ORD. However, as caps are being placed on O'Hare, DEN has tons of capacity so flights can be moved there to relieve ORD.

All of the majors except for Northwest and Continental are facing stiff competition at their hubs now. UA got undercut first.
 
coewr777
Posts: 420
Joined: Mon Jan 17, 2005 7:50 am

RE: Does UA Have The Hardest Competition At Their Hubs

Fri Mar 11, 2005 5:41 am

For CO we have Jet blue at Jfk and alot of carriers have a large amount of flights from LGA/JFk. Not posotive but SW at hobby is big and thats in Houston same with Iah.
 
SHUPirate1
Posts: 3428
Joined: Sat Sep 20, 2003 2:53 pm

RE: Does UA Have The Hardest Competition At Their Hubs

Fri Mar 11, 2005 5:52 am

AADC10-I can't help but think that, if United was forced to close one of its hubs, that it would be one of the West-Coast hubs, probably Los Angeles. United being forced to shut down San Francisco, Denver, or Northern Virginia would mean a SEVERE loss of air service at the respective airports, and with United's headquarters being there, Chicago-O'Hare isn't going anywhere.
Burma's constitutional referendum options: A. Yes, B. Go to Insein Prison!
 
N1120A
Posts: 26468
Joined: Sun Dec 14, 2003 5:40 pm

RE: Does UA Have The Hardest Competition At Their Hubs

Fri Mar 11, 2005 6:00 am



Quoting COEWR777 (Thread starter):
Lets see at Denver there is frontier, at dulles there is Indy air, at Ord there is AA and Sw at midway, Sfo not much competition there and LAX not a major hub but AA and Del. Im not saying Lax is a hub but there busy there.

LAX is a UA hub, they even operate in banks there. They do have a lot of competition, most of it coming from WN, AA and to a point AS, as the other big carriers mainly do hub flights and Hawai'i

Quoting AADC10 (Reply 5):
UA says that LAX is a hub, but it sure does not look like it. All of the majors have a significant presence at LAX and Southwest now has the most flights from there. JetBlue

Of the majors, only WN, AA, UA and to a lesser point AS actually have what can be called a major presence

Quoting COEWR777 (Reply 6):
For CO we have Jet blue at Jfk and alot of carriers have a large amount of flights from LGA/JFk. Not posotive but SW at hobby is big and thats in Houston same with Iah.

EWR not only pulls from NYC, but PHL and the State of NJ. Also, they absolutely domminate IAH. Hubbing is not just about competition but also space at the airport.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
cx750
Posts: 150
Joined: Tue Dec 07, 2004 7:32 am

RE: Does UA Have The Hardest Competition At Their Hubs

Fri Mar 11, 2005 6:12 am

AADC10,

IAD is probably the strongest UA hub, and most protected.
 
coewr777
Posts: 420
Joined: Mon Jan 17, 2005 7:50 am

RE: Does UA Have The Hardest Competition At Their Hubs

Fri Mar 11, 2005 6:13 am

What do you mean by strongest?
 
aa777jr
Posts: 2269
Joined: Tue Feb 17, 2004 12:03 pm

RE: Does UA Have The Hardest Competition At Their Hubs

Fri Mar 11, 2005 6:14 am

UA has to compete heavily with AA at JFK.
A liberal is a man who is right most of the time, but he's right too soon.
 
wingnutmn
Posts: 492
Joined: Thu Jan 08, 2004 10:27 am

RE: Does UA Have The Hardest Competition At Their Hubs

Fri Mar 11, 2005 6:35 am

I think that NW has the most competition of all the majors.......MSP- there is SY, Champion, and the usual suspects. DTW- there is Spirit, and in MEM there is Fedex...............WE NEED MORE COMPETITION!

WingnutMN
Any landing you can walk away from is a good landing! It's a bonus if you can fly the plane again!!
 
juventus
Posts: 2017
Joined: Tue Dec 07, 2004 11:12 pm

RE: Does UA Have The Hardest Competition At Their Hubs

Fri Mar 11, 2005 6:44 am

I think that is the reason why UAL and AA are suffering the most. These two majors, have the best hubs in America, by far. But, they also face the most competition, specially from the foreign airlines. CO and NW, with horrible hubs usually do better than most becuase they have nobody to compete agaisnt.
 
roseflyer
Posts: 9606
Joined: Fri Feb 13, 2004 9:34 am

RE: Does UA Have The Hardest Competition At Their Hubs

Fri Mar 11, 2005 6:58 am

UA may have a lot of competition at its hubs, but you have to remember that they are in some of the highest O/D markets in the country. A city like ORD can handle a double hub with UA and AA. UA is larger then AA (kind of like AA and DL in DFW. UA puts way more passengers through ORD and advertises as a home town airline. UA benefits by having a very good set of hubs. The only high yielding city (that is not artificially high like MSP or CVG is NYC. But an airline can't expect everything.

LAX can certainly handle a lot of traffic. Yields however have fallen on short flights with WN and HP serving the southwest very well with short cheap flights. UA does not fight against them too much since Shuttle by United failed. They use Skywest feeder service to take them places in the southwest where WN doesn't go. They also have good service to business destinations in the east and offer first class, which is somewhat important on transcons. UA doesn't try to dominate LAX and destroy WN now like they tried and failed at with Shuttle. TED serves Las Vegas, but most of the other inter california service is on CRJs and EMB 120s (with the exception of SFO).

IAD is the big question since it doesn't have enough O/D to serve as two airline's hubs. DCA takes a lot of the passengers away that pay premium fares. BWI already has a big WN presence along with FL so fares there are cheap too. IAD can't survive like it is now. The perimeter rule isn't enough to allow for a dual hub with a LCC like is currently going on. I predict like many that one of them will go due to economic forces.

DEN is the final question. F9 is doing well and operating cheap service, but UA still appeals to the higher yielding passengers because they go a lot of places that F9 doesn't, even though that is rapidly changing. But DEN has served as a dual hub in the past. It wasn't that long ago that CO was there too. So maybe the city can support two hubs kind of like how ATL does. Of course FL and DL are much bigger in ATL then UA and F9, but still it might work.

SFO of course is a good hub with decent fares and little low cost competition due to high landing fees. WN at OAK and SJC steals many low yielding passengers, but with its huge Pacific presence and domestic domination at the airport, UA can do well there.

[Edited 2005-03-10 23:00:02]

[Edited 2005-03-10 23:33:08]
If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
 
N1120A
Posts: 26468
Joined: Sun Dec 14, 2003 5:40 pm

RE: Does UA Have The Hardest Competition At Their Hubs

Fri Mar 11, 2005 7:01 am



Quoting Aa777jr (Reply 11):
UA has to compete heavily with AA at JFK

UA is much, much smaller at JFK than AA is. New York is not a hub city for UA
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
coewr777
Posts: 420
Joined: Mon Jan 17, 2005 7:50 am

RE: Does UA Have The Hardest Competition At Their Hubs

Fri Mar 11, 2005 8:02 am



Quoting Juventus (Reply 13):
the reason why UAL and AA are suffering the most. These two majors, have the best hubs in America, by far. But, they also face the most competition, specially from the foreign airlines. CO and NW, with horrible hubs usually do better than most becuase they have nobody to compete agaisnt.

What are you talking about Ewr is a great hub i am sure most airlines would kill to have a hub there. Its a good location. Iah houston has the 4th or 5th i think 5th biggest population in America.
 
ual777
Posts: 1510
Joined: Thu Aug 14, 2003 6:18 am

RE: Does UA Have The Hardest Competition At Their Hubs

Fri Mar 11, 2005 9:01 am

Let me break it down for you:

ORD- By far United's biggest and most prized hub. This hub will not go anywhere because United uses it for most of the U.S., some pacific, and most of their European ops.

DEN- United kicked CO out and from what I've heard, TED is suprisingly successful agains F9. DEN, however is primarily a domestic hub(also serves HNL) however, they serve latin-american destinations and used to serve FRA as well. The competition is there but it is not intolerable.

IAD- Dulles is extremely important for UA's European operation. LHR, CDG, AMS, FRA, and MUC all have 777 service and I believe that ZRH has 767 from Dulles as well. In addition, Brazil and Argentina are served from dulles with 767s. As far as competition, I believe that Indyair can safely be called a dud. ALL of their first officers were laid off due to Indyair returning leased aircraft and with their yields and abysmal load factor, they need to do something an fast.

SFO- Big on Pacific ops and is a sanctuary from WN. Also serves Europe from the westcoast. Not going anywhere.

LAX- An enigma to us all. UA has a lot of traffic out of LAX to Mexico and Guatamala. In additon I believe that they serve some Pacific as well.

My prediction: I do not believe that any hub will be sacrificed, however if anything was to happen, I believe that it would be a domestic traffic reduction at LAX with the central american flights preserved.
It is always darkest before the sun comes up.
 
AADC10
Posts: 1507
Joined: Sat Nov 13, 2004 7:40 am

RE: Does UA Have The Hardest Competition At Their

Fri Mar 11, 2005 10:13 am

Quoting SHUPirate1 (Reply 7):
I can't help but think that, if United was forced to close one of its hubs, that it would be one of the West-Coast hubs, probably Los Angeles.

UA management does not want to close any hubs. They would only do so if forced to by the creditors in bankruptcy court. Los Angeles is not really a hub in a normal sense. It does have a number of United Express flights and it is the gateway for the Australia flights and several flights to Mexico but they cut several of its direct international destinations some time ago, such as HKG, CDG, and KIX. It seems to have more O&D traffic than connecting passengers. LAX does have low landing fees, much lower than SFO or DEN.

Quoting CX750 (Reply 9):
IAD is probably the strongest UA hub, and most protected.

What makes it the "strongest"? Unlike UA's other real hubs (I am declaring Los Angeles a fake hub) it was deliberately created, unlike ORD, SFO and DEN which essentially existed before deregulation. It has the fewest passengers of the hubs and there is room for LCCs to move in without having to face WN directly. B6 has several flights out of IAD and could add more. UA was certainly not "protected" from IndyAir and I know many people in Northern Virgnina who dirve to BWI to fly on WN.

I would think that the "strongest" hubs would be ORD or SFO. Obviously AA is also at ORD, but there is little LCC competition in ORD and Chicago is a huge O&D market and is in the Central time zone, the ideal hub location. The LCCs are over at Midway but UA has LCCs either in their hub or in the same market at every hub.

SFO is dominated by UA and is the Pacific gateway, the most profitable part of the system. IAD could be eliminated as a hub but remain an international gateway, as MIA had for a few years before UA moved most of the Latin America operations to the hubs.

Again, current UA management would only shut IAD as a hub if the creditors held a gun to their head (or threatened to replace them) but if the creditors want to restructure UAL as a smaller airline they would kill IAD, DEN and the alleged LAX as hubs and the airline would be very different but would still be able to cover most of the country.
 
UALAX
Posts: 132
Joined: Tue Feb 10, 2004 1:35 pm

RE: Does UA Have The Hardest Competition At Their Hubs

Fri Mar 11, 2005 10:49 am

AAD10: How is Los Angeles a fake hub? Granted it's no ORD or DEN, It offers 100+ mainline flights, 200+ flights with express. It's used as a connecting point to Asia, the South Pacific and Central America, not to mention all the *Alliance connections
 
UA772IAD
Posts: 1269
Joined: Sat Jul 10, 2004 7:43 am

RE: Does UA Have The Hardest Competition At Their Hubs

Fri Mar 11, 2005 11:02 am

AADC10:
IAD is certainly NOT the weakest hub, that is proposterous (bias aside!). As stated above, IAD handles ALL EUROPEAN destinations (plus some that ORD doesn't have: MUC (for now at least), ZCH, BRU)... the loads on these flights are great (hence the increase of 744 service at Dulles, and upgraded 777 service to routes such as MUC)... and not to mention S. American traffic. You people just don't get it, IAD is a huge and vital hub (and it would be to any other airline that dominated it). Granted Washington may not be the largest city in the US (I mean you can't compare it to ORD or LAX...) it is HUGE for tourism and HUGE because the federal government is the LARGEST employer in the area (over 5 million jobs). How do you think all the bureacrats fly, certainly not private, not even Senators fly private, unless they can hitchike on AF-1.
The argument that UA isn't big on the East coast is also a premis. The East Coast is not as developed and heavly populated as the west coast. You have pockes of large cities: Boston, NYC/NJ, Baltimore/Annapolis, DC-Richmond, Charlotte, Atlanta, down to Fl, and THATS It. Nothing but farmland and small cities in between. Also, look at how centrally located DC is compared to NYC, ORD, MIA. It makes PERFECT sense to be there, and it eases traffic off of the "traditional" ports of entry (NYC and ORD, mainly).
INDY is NOT a threat to UA, who dominates O&D at Dulles. The people who drive the 2 hours to Baltimore either cannot afford more than WN, or are just flying somewhere short distance, and do not want to fork out the money. Unless you live in N. Mongomery County/PG Cty, BWI is not convenient. Most Washingtonians are United customers, anyways. Perhaps your right that IAD isn't the biggest domestic desitnation, but it's a huge mid point... The Northeast corridor is huge (DCA-LGA-BOS), and flights to Florida and Colorado are also big. I don't know what else I can say, but IAD is vital to UA operations, and if they were to lose it, it would kill them.
 
nomorerjs
Posts: 581
Joined: Wed Sep 01, 2004 10:24 am

RE: Does UA Have The Hardest Competition At Their Hubs

Fri Mar 11, 2005 11:43 am

"The East Coast is not as developed and heavly populated as the west coast. You have pockes of large cities: Boston, NYC/NJ, Baltimore/Annapolis, DC-Richmond, Charlotte, Atlanta, down to Fl, and THATS It. Nothing but farmland and small cities in between. Also, look at how centrally located DC is compared to NYC, ORD, MIA."

Interesting. Last time I drove down I95 along the east coast there was no farmland, just traffic! DC centrally located, if you live between NY and ORF. Drive I57 and I55 south out of Chicago, you will go nuts seeing nothing but corn and soy beans on the trip to New Orleans (you do get St. Louis, Memphis, and Jackson - hardly the east coast population).

I agree IAD is important to UA, but not as important as ORD and SFO. UA can connect Tokyo, Osaka, Hong Kong, Beijing, and Shanghai (and soon more cities in Asia) to South America (GRU and EZE) via ORD.
 
RIOJANEIRO
Posts: 118
Joined: Tue Dec 26, 2000 4:41 am

RE: Does UA Have The Hardest Competition At Their Hubs

Fri Mar 11, 2005 11:45 am

Ok.... so I am assuming we are talking about which airline hub(including UA) has the biggest competition??

Or are we talking about which UA hub has the most competition?

A litte bit confused here, folks. Regardless, I'm surprised nobody has brought up HP's hubs at PHX/LAS. Both offer terrible yields (on the majority of routes, as opposed to other parts of the country), have the largest WN presence in the nation, with an extremely loyal customer base, I can only imagine where HP would be if they hadn't restructured their fare structure. In addition to having the lowest CASM's in the country, agressive advertising, and the money in the bank to expand aggresively, I cannot compare any other hub nationwide with as much competition as PHX/LAS.
 
UA772IAD
Posts: 1269
Joined: Sat Jul 10, 2004 7:43 am

RE: Does UA Have The Hardest Competition At Their Hubs

Fri Mar 11, 2005 11:52 am

Quoting NoMoreRJs (Reply 21):
Last time I drove down I95 along the east coast there was no farmland, just traffic! DC centrally located, if you live between NY and ORF

Agreed, there is traffic as urban sprawl in DC continues to grow, but it is still nothing compared to the west coast, CA in particular. There aren't too many big cities that would make profitable hubs (arguably, why DL continues to lose it's ALT-China bids), and why CLT-Europe isn't as strong as it should be for US.
 
lvkewlkid
Posts: 104
Joined: Mon Feb 14, 2005 10:42 am

RE: Does UA Have The Hardest Competition At Their Hubs

Fri Mar 11, 2005 12:05 pm

Quoting AADC10 (Reply 5):
Southwest now has the most flights from there

That would be incorrect, WN has the most flights from LAS.

Quoting RIOJANEIRO (Reply 22):
I cannot compare any other hub nationwide with as much competition as PHX/LAS.

LAS also has Allegiant as part of HP and WNs competition.
 
roseflyer
Posts: 9606
Joined: Fri Feb 13, 2004 9:34 am

RE: Does UA Have The Hardest Competition At Their Hubs

Fri Mar 11, 2005 12:45 pm

UA772IAD,

Man I am sorry I don't like flaming people, but I cannot disagree with you more on the west coast being heavily populated compared to the east. There are a few main cities in the form of Vancouver, Seattle, Portland, Bay Area, LA basin and San Diego. That is it. LA is huge and so is San Francisco. Seattle is growing fast too, but the east coast is far far more densly populated then the west coast. With more large cities all closely packed within a days drive of each other. You can't base your assumption on one city like LA and assume the rest of the place is like that. LA has a lot of traffic because it is a huge city, and so does San Francisco, but these are because there aren't many competing large cities except for WN and HP dominated LAS and PHX.

Less then 50,000 people live on the Washington and Oregon Pacific Coastline. That is something like 600 miles of only small towns and cities. The I-5 corridor is decently populated, but to say that it is more populated then the I-95 corridor is ludicrous. Washington and Oregon have about 8 million people between them.

Try driving I-5 and you will see. I have since I grew up on the west coast. LA is a huge suburban mess that seems endless, but that is a small portion of the west coast. If you drive between Las Vegas, San Francisco and Los Angeles, you will see that it is not populated much if at all. There aren't even farms since a lot of it is desert.

IAD suffers because there is over capacity on the east coast. PHL, IAD, DCA, BWI, EWR, JFK, LGA and BOS are all big airports in the same area. While each is its own market and can support operations, each city doesn't need a hub. PHL, IAD and EWR are each huge hubs. Add in BWI, CLT, ATL to the mix as well and you end up with a mess of hubs. The problem with hubs so close to each other is that the cancel out the benefit of connecting traffic. People have so many choices and options that no specific hub will actually see a huge part of the market. They cause the hub to rely too much on O/D and unfortunately the Washington DC metro area is spread among 3 airports, whereas LAX and SFO are more isolated and can connect people to Asia, Australia, Mexico and the smaller destinations in the west better.

Finally I don't understand how you can argue that the east is less populated yet that makes IAD more crucial to UA. It has been kept because it is a good starting point for east coast flights, and not because it is a great domestic connection point because it isn't. Most traffic from the northeast to florida can go nonstop since there are a plethora of flights. The feed from the smaller cities that don't have nonstop service is split between many cities, so that can't sustain a hub either. It is possible for UA to give up IAD. In the last 10 years ORD has taken more and more flights to Europe and Asia and is getting bigger and unfortunately more crowded. It is definitely possible if UA needs to that they can have their transatlantic base in ORD. NW serves the Atlantic fine from DTW. Neither UA or NW are dominant carriers in Europe, but they can hold thier own. IAD is useful to the UA system, but it is possible that it could go if more downsizing is absolutely necessary.
If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
 
UA772IAD
Posts: 1269
Joined: Sat Jul 10, 2004 7:43 am

RE: Does UA Have The Hardest Competition At Their Hubs

Fri Mar 11, 2005 2:09 pm

http://www.census.gov/geo/www/maps/m...previews_htm/cbsa_us_wall_1203.htm

I'm always up for a good firing at. Your right, I'm wrong. My views were strictly limited to hugely populated urban areas, in California and Arizona only. I should know better, being that I spend my summers in Lake Tahoe, and the nearest big cities are 40 minutes away (Reno, by car), and 1 1/2 hours away (Sacramento by car).

I guess what my overall point is, though theoretically UA could operate all Int'l flights out of ORD, it would make no sense. DTW (and MSP) are very different from ORD, in terms of size (of the city and facilities), O&D traffic, etc. I can comfortably say that Detroit is not a big American desitnation (having bad weather and the second highest crime rate in the US). At ORD, you are looking at flights offered by UA and AA, who have both claimed "ownership" declaring each their hubs. Not to mention the huge amouts of INT'L airlines from Europe, Asia, Latin and S. America. It would be a total nightmare for UA to move its 15+ daily flights to add them ONTOP of the already exisitng flights both offered by UA and other carriers. Plus there's the traffic and delay issue plagued by ORD.
If you were a small businessman from Greenville, SC and you had to fly to Munich for an important business deal, than, right now, you can fly UAE to IAD, and connect on UA902 to MUC. If IAD was off the slate, you would probably have to fly a commuter flight to either Atlanta, Columbia, or Charleston, THEN connect to ORD, then fly to MUC. But who wants to do that? Instead you can fly to ATL, and then fly DL to FRA, and codeshare your way to MUC. That's a lost customer, and that adds up when all the people you serve outside of a metropolitan area, lose an arterial travel route/connection point. IAD is so important because of it's central location, its commerce, it's bypassing New York, it's fairly decent loads of domestic traffic, and its huge commuter traffic that brings in passengers from rural areas. I agree that there is overservicing to the east coast. But from your list: (MIA), IAD, PHL (maybe), EWR, JFK, BOS (maybe), are the biggest ports of entry/exit into the US. Tack onto that LGA and DCA for SHORT domestic flights.
Finally, if you site UA's withdrawls from MIA (the biggest I can think of in my lifetime), they make sense, but in the long run, I think they are going to miss what they had. Granted the international market is heading towards Asia these days (hence every carrier trying to get more US-China flights), Latin American O&D traffic has grown more subtly. Look at all the UA destinations being introduced, or reintroduced in Mexico and the Carribean. Granted, this may be AA's territory, especially out of MIA, San Jaun and Santo Domingo, UA has found that the market is big enough for a little competition. The only problem is, UA's LatAm traffic originates where the market isn't as strong (DEN, SFO, some flights from IAD). Right now, UA doesn't have the loads to send anything greater than a 757, while AA is sending down 767s, and A300s, full. As the market gradually increases (and could very well boom), UA is going to have to play serious catch up to be able to send 767s and 777s down there (777s to Brazil, Argentina). If things had gone ideally for UA they would still be putting up a good fight against old AA for Latin American routes.
 
tockeyhockey
Posts: 880
Joined: Fri Feb 04, 2005 10:57 pm

RE: Does UA Have The Hardest Competition At Their Hubs

Sat Mar 12, 2005 5:09 am

this is kind of a crazy thread. how can you argue that UA is the carrier with the most competition at its hubs when it basically owns one of the two busiest airports in the country, and is a large presence at almost every major airport in the country? aren't they the carrier that is the most competitive in terms of reach, perhaps other than AA, than any other airline in the world? i could argue that WN is threatened by UA because they don't get gates at ORD and have to fly into that crappy midway airport.

the premise of this thread is kind of messed up.

and futhermore, it would be hard to argue that US isn't the carrier that is most threatened by LCCs at its hubs. think PHL and PIT -- nuff said.
 
MAH4546
Posts: 24604
Joined: Wed Jan 24, 2001 1:44 pm

RE: Does UA Have The Hardest Competition At Their Hubs

Sat Mar 12, 2005 5:27 am

Quoting Juventus (Reply 13):
I think that is the reason why UAL and AA are suffering the most.

Excepet for the fact US Airways and Delta are suffering significantly more than AA, which itself isn't that much worse off than NW and CO.
a.
 
SESGDL
Posts: 2615
Joined: Sat Jan 13, 2001 6:25 am

RE: Does UA Have The Hardest Competition At Their Hubs

Sat Mar 12, 2005 5:46 am

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 28):
Excepet for the fact US Airways and Delta are suffering significantly more than AA, which itself isn't that much worse off than NW and CO.

All the majors are suffering, and let's say, if losses continued for 10 years in the exact way they are now, all of the big 6 would be gone. That's not a good thing, and rising fuel prices this year are only gonna make things work.

In terms of UA's hubs, let's examine all the airline's hubs.

United Airlines:

CHI: UA, AA, WN, TZ - 3rd biggest O&D market in the country, big business center

DEN: UA, F9 - Ok O&D market, good location for connecting traffic

WAS: UA, US, WN - 4th biggest O&D market in the country, HUGE economic, international business center.

LAX: UA, WN - 2nd biggest O&D market, HUGE economic business and population center

SFO: UA, WN - Top 10 O&D market, HUGE business and tourist center

American Airlines:
CHI: UA, AA, WN, TZ - 3rd biggest O&D market in the country, big business center

DFW: AA, WN - Top 10 O&D market, big business center

MIA: AA - Top 10 O&D market, HUGE Latin American center

STL: AA - Medium sized city with relatively modest O&D, good location for connecting traffic

Other sizeable ops:
LAX, NYC, BOS: All big business and tourist centers with heavy competition and O&D

Delta Air Lines:

ATL: DL, FL - Top 10 O&D market, business center of the South

CVG: DL - Pathetic O&D, good connecting hub

SLC: DL - Ok O&D for a city its size.

Other sizable ops:
NYC, BOS, MCO, FLL: All big O&D markets with extensive competition

Northwest Airlines:

MSP: NW - Top 15 O&D market, high yielding, good connecting hub

DTW: NW - Top 15 O&D market, high yielding, good connecting hub

MEM: NW - Pathetic O&D market

Continental Airlines:

IAH: CO - Big O&D market, huge economic center

NYC: CO - Largest US O&D market, US economic and population center

CLE: CO - Modest O&D traffic

Overall, UA clearly has the best hub network. Their hubs are all top ten O&D markets (except for DEN) and are all spaced throughout the country. NW faces the least competition, with no carriers having hubs at any of NW's hubs. DL is only impacted in ATL, but because it's their largest hub, FL has a huge impact. I'd say UA is the most impacted by LCC at their hubs.

Jeremy