JoFMO
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Swiss Sold To LH - New Rumors

Fri Mar 11, 2005 9:26 am

There were two older threads about an possible takeover of LX by LH:

http://www.airliners.net/discussions...general_aviation/read.main/1914097

http://www.airliners.net/discussions...general_aviation/read.main/1953193

The 2nd topic was about a news given by a French-Swiss business magazine and reported on airwise.com. At that time the report wasn't picked up by any other serious newspaper.

But now the same story is reported once again by several German newpapers (Handelsblatt and Der Spiegel), two of the most respected ones.

http://www.airliners.net/discussions...general_aviation/read.main/1914097

http://www.spiegel.de/wirtschaft/0,1518,345805,00.html


It looks as if the rumor becomes more and more serious. It just seems to be a matter of time when it will officially be announced.
 
danialanwar
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RE: Swiss Sold To LH - New Rumors

Fri Mar 11, 2005 12:04 pm

The noise about this does seem to get louder (again) at the moment. Issues sem to be lowering of costs and control over Swiss' network, then LH might be willing to let the Swiss brand survive:
http://news.airwise.com/story/view/1110484372.html

Now I hope transiting at FRA will be made a more pleasant experience!
Best Business Class: Royal Brunei. Best Economy: Singapore Airlines. First: please send money first!
 
TUNisia
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RE: Swiss Sold To LH - New Rumors

Fri Mar 11, 2005 1:41 pm

Will it still be safe to fly on Swiss this summer? Will it still be Swiss this summer and not LH? This is my first time on Swiss and I want it to be on Swiss and not LH. I'm flying LHR-ZRH-CAI.
Someday the sun will shine down on me in some faraway place - Mahalia Jackson
 
airgeek12
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RE: Swiss Sold To LH - New Rumors

Fri Mar 11, 2005 1:46 pm

That would be a very interesting merge.

TUNisia, you might want to stick with LH. Not sure, though. Swiss rocks! And LH, well kinda lacks in the IFE department lol. so yea.
 
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RE: Swiss Sold To LH - New Rumors

Fri Mar 11, 2005 2:11 pm

Well I, for one, hope this doesn't go ahead. I've nothing against Lufthansa but with Munich and Frankfurt to the north and Vienna to the east it may not leave much for Zurich once LH have completed their domination of the central European German-speaking countries. That won't be good for the passenger. (Me!)

I'm still hoping that the Oneworld option isn't dead. Nor do I accept that Swiss has no future. SN Brussels is making money and Austrian (OK, within Star) is surviving and they have no greater home market than do Swiss. There may have to be further changes to the short- / long-haul mix and the fleet but I can see a healthy and profitable Swiss within Oneworld.

An interesting aside is whether or not Austrian would welcome a Lufthansa takeover of Swiss. I suspect they wouldn't...
 
clipperno1
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RE: Swiss Sold To LH - New Rumors

Fri Mar 11, 2005 4:06 pm

Mayrhuber is rumored to have said the name "Swiss" will be kept... stirthepot 
So watch out for those "Lufthansa Regional operated by Swiss" Stickers!
Seriously, of the international route network of swiss, I only give the BBJ/A319CJ routes a realistic chance of survival.
"I really don't know one plane from the other. To me they are just marginal costs with wings."� Alfred Kahn, 1977
 
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RE: Swiss Sold To LH - New Rumors

Fri Mar 11, 2005 4:37 pm

Quoting ClipperNo1 (Reply 5):
Seriously, of the international route network of swiss, I only give the BBJ/A319CJ routes a realistic chance of survival.

On what basis? I fly ZRH-NBO-DAR (LX292/293) fairly regularly and it's in good shape - in Business and Economy. I know the Swiss staff in East Africa and I'm told the route is earning money. Even if LH do take them over, LH don't fly to DAR (or NBO??) and I could see them leaving routes like this to LX. I think you're being too pessimistic.
 
Leskova
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RE: Swiss Sold To LH - New Rumors

Fri Mar 11, 2005 4:37 pm

Quoting PM (Reply 4):
Austrian (OK, within Star) is surviving

Well, they were simply smart enough to not grow the airline past the size that they could reasonably expect to fill - something that Swissair did, and something that Swiss, I think, isn't completely out of yet... although they have been shrinking themselves quite a bit.

As for rebranding Swiss - do remember that Condor/Thomas Cook is 50%-owned by Lufthansa, so they have some experience with rebrandings... and very well know that there are some rebrandings that you should simply not even try: in my opinion, renaming Swiss to either Lufthansa, Lufthansa Switzerland, Swiss Lufthansa or Lufthansa operated by Swiss - or whatever else - falls into exactly that category.

Regards,
Frank
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N1120A
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RE: Swiss Sold To LH - New Rumors

Fri Mar 11, 2005 4:48 pm

Quoting Leskova (Reply 7):
do remember that Condor/Thomas Cook is 50%-owned by Lufthansa, so they have some experience with rebrandings...

Yeah, crap rebrandings like that one. I agree Frank, if they do take Swiss, LH will keep the name the same. Also, ZRH can support high yield long haul traffic, giving LH more connecting options. One of the main problems at SR was their losses in investing in everything they could put their money on. LX has been investing way too much capital. That includes dumping MD-11s either owned or with sweetheart lease rates for brand new A343s, and not even enough to run their entire long haul program daily (LAX 5X, come on now, it is their most profitable destination).
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
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RE: Swiss Sold To LH - New Rumors

Fri Mar 11, 2005 5:07 pm

Quoting Leskova (Reply 7):
Well, they were simply smart enough to not grow the airline past the size that they could reasonably expect to fill - something that Swissair did, and something that Swiss, I think, isn't completely out of yet... although they have been shrinking themselves quite a bit.



Quoting PM (Reply 4):
There may have to be further changes to the short- / long-haul mix and the fleet.

As I said, they aren't the right size yet and they'll have to work on that but I don't think it's impossible to do.

But what's in it for LH? They have a hub at MUC with plenty of scope for future growth so why would they develop ZRH? I think the answer is, they wouldn't. They'd turn LX into a feeder to serve FRA and MUC. There will remain some obvious long-haul routes out of ZRH (JFK/EWR?) and, as I argued above, LX have some African routes that LH don't but otherwise the benefit to LH is surely to close down a competitor rather than build up a subsidiary. That's not good for ZRH, not good for CH and not good for the passenger.
 
MAH4546
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RE: Swiss Sold To LH - New Rumors

Fri Mar 11, 2005 5:19 pm

Quoting N1120A (Reply 8):
(LAX 5X, come on now, it is their most profitable destination).

No it isn't. The LAX-ZRH routes loses more money than any of their trans-Atlantic services.
a.
 
nudelhirsch
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RE: Swiss Sold To LH - New Rumors

Fri Mar 11, 2005 5:27 pm

Would be a good move. AND OLD: Munich - Riem (MUC / EDDM) (closed), Germany">MUC / EDDM), Germany AND OLD: Munich - Riem (AND OLD: Munich - Riem (MUC / EDDM) (closed), Germany">MUC / EDDM) (closed), Germany">AND OLD: Munich - Riem (MUC / EDDM) (closed), Germany">MUC has still some capacity, but ZRH / LSZH), Switzerland">ZRH has lots of it. AB) (FRA / FRF / EDDF), Germany">FRA instead... well...
If you combine AB) (FRA / FRF / EDDF), Germany">FRA, AND OLD: Munich - Riem (MUC / EDDM) (closed), Germany">MUC / EDDM), Germany AND OLD: Munich - Riem (AND OLD: Munich - Riem (MUC / EDDM) (closed), Germany">MUC / EDDM) (closed), Germany">AND OLD: Munich - Riem (MUC / EDDM) (closed), Germany">MUC and ZRH / LSZH), Switzerland">ZRH, that would be 1 huge hub, 1 big hub, 1 medium sized hub, and incredible capacity. When keeping SWISS like it is (brand, fleet, network) and just integrate the whole thing as well as possible into LH and Star, now that would be some strong group there! I just hope I can fly SWISS business on my OW miles before that
happens...


Edit:
Just read the same on Reuters, citing Handelsblatt as a source... and posting a sweet pic of the winglet and tail of a SWISS MD11... Smile

[Edited 2005-03-11 09:32:49]
Putana da Seatbeltz!
 
cornish
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RE: Swiss Sold To LH - New Rumors

Fri Mar 11, 2005 6:21 pm

Quoting PM (Reply 9):
But what's in it for LH? They have a hub at MUC with plenty of scope for future growth so why would they develop ZRH? I think the answer is, they wouldn't. They'd turn LX into a feeder to serve FRA and MUC.

Exactly - what's in it for LH - they'd remove long haul competition from Southern Germany/Northern Switzerland - importantly containing a predominantly higher yield business community.
Just when I thought I could see light at the end of the tunnel, it was some B*****d with a torch bringing me more work
 
aussiestu
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RE: Swiss Sold To LH - New Rumors

Fri Mar 11, 2005 6:31 pm

Why would LH want to buy a loss making airline? While Swiss has been taking huge steps to increase profits and get itself back to normality I dont understand why LH would want to buy it? I hope we dont see the LX brand disappear completely if it happens. Having flown the old Swiss many times they were a great airline, they just invested in the wrong thing. Good luck Swiss!!
 
RJ100
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RE: Swiss Sold To LH - New Rumors

Fri Mar 11, 2005 6:38 pm

Its the only possibility for Swiss. They tried to keep the ZRH hub but it does not work (too small home market). Now its time to get realistic.

LH will take over LX. ZRH will massively be downgraded to a maximum of 8 longhaul planes (just a guess...). They will fly where demand from the homemarket exists.

BSL and GVA will be left to the competitors (apart from feeder routes and some regional routes to from Germany).

Believe me, I would love to see 100 A-380 based in ZRH (before someone starts bitching at me). But its really time now to get realistic.

Regards,
RJ100
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cornish
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RE: Swiss Sold To LH - New Rumors

Fri Mar 11, 2005 6:40 pm

Quoting Aussiestu (Reply 13):
Why would LH want to buy a loss making airline? While Swiss has been taking huge steps to increase profits and get itself back to normality I dont understand why LH would want to buy it?

Because perhaps more importantly they don't want a competitor to get it. Its the market they want, not the airline.
Just when I thought I could see light at the end of the tunnel, it was some B*****d with a torch bringing me more work
 
atamdji
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RE: Swiss Sold To LH - New Rumors

Fri Mar 11, 2005 6:46 pm

I wouldn't be too pessimistic - LH is currently constrained on flights to the Far East due to bilateral agreements. They make very good money on the Japan and China flights and would love to do more! Expect LX to upgrade all Far East Flts to 7/7  Smile

The Africa network will probably remain

so expect a reduction in trans-atlantic flights, with trade offs between the various hubs. For example looking at LAX and YUL, I expect LAX to be discontinued so that MUC-LAX improves yields, and as a trade-off I expect MUC-YUL to be stopped in favour of ZRH-YUL.

cheers
A
 
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RE: Swiss Sold To LH - New Rumors

Fri Mar 11, 2005 7:26 pm

Quoting RJ100 (Reply 14):
LH will take over LX. ZRH will massively be downgraded to a maximum of 8 longhaul planes (just a guess...). They will fly where demand from the homemarket exists.

So is this a vindication of the Airbus vision of the future where we are all channelled through major hubs and onto huge aircraft and a rejection of the Boeing point-to-point alternative flying on 787s? Wink
 
RJ100
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RE: Swiss Sold To LH - New Rumors

Fri Mar 11, 2005 7:32 pm

No absolutely not. Point-to-point where demand exists. Channelling the people via FRA or MUC (in this case) where homemarket does not exist.

I see a chance for Zurich with the high yield Africa business. So we might see people flying via ZRH. But most of the African destinations are served once or twice a week so the longhaul fleet will be reduced anyway.

Just my thoughts.

Regards,
RJ100
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RE: Swiss Sold To LH - New Rumors

Fri Mar 11, 2005 7:49 pm

Quoting RJ100 (Reply 18):
where homemarket does not exist

How much "homemarket" does EK or SQ have? Hong Kong has the same population as Switzerland (more or less) and can support Cathay and others. I know we're not comparing like with like but I still find it hard to believe that a first class and centrally located airport (ZRH) and a pretty good airline (LX) cannot sustain a route network that is any bigger than, say, TAP's. Swissair managed it for years. OK, it was operating in a different environment and then shot itself in the foot (actually, both feet, with both barrels, more than once) but why shouldn't Swiss (as part of an alliance other than Star) pull in travellers from south Germany (which they already do) and elsewhere to load onto their long-haul flights? My LX292/293 shuttle between ZRH and DAR is full of people transferring all over Europe. Why let them transfer through FRA (yech!)?

I'm not really arguing with you and I'm just an enthusiast sitting under a palm tree beside the Indian Ocean rather than an industry insider but I've had twenty wonderful years on SR/LX flying in and out of ZRH a few hundred times and I hate to think of a future where all the direct flights will be on other airlines while I transfer in MUCweeping 
 
hardiwv
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RE: Swiss Sold To LH - New Rumors

Fri Mar 11, 2005 8:27 pm

Quoting PM (Reply 19):
but I still find it hard to believe that a first class and centrally located airport (ZRH) and a pretty good airline (LX) cannot sustain a route network that is any bigger than, say, TAP's

TAP is doing pretty well. It was luckly not to get involved with LX...

Your rationale does not make sense, and you would have to make the same question with regard to many other countries, e.g. Belgium, Luxembourg, and even the more scandalous case of Italy with AZ!

Rgs,
 
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RE: Swiss Sold To LH - New Rumors

Fri Mar 11, 2005 8:39 pm

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 20):
TAP is doing pretty well. It was luckly not to get involved with LX...

Ah, but it did (well, SR rather than LX) as one of the orphans Brugisser collected around Europe and elsewhere. I'm glad it's now doing well (and, unlike some, I love their new livery) but are we really saying that Swiss, ZRH and Europe's wealthiest country can't aspire a little higher than that?

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 20):
Your rationale does not make sense, and you would have to make the same question with regard to many other countries, e.g. Belgium, Luxembourg, and even the more scandalous case of Italy with AZ!

Yep. All true. So is the future a Europe with a very few major hubs (being what? FRA? CDG? AMS? LHR?) and elsewhere just peripheral airports feeding the giants and providing runways for these dreary LCCs? worried 
 
RJ100
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RE: Swiss Sold To LH - New Rumors

Fri Mar 11, 2005 9:15 pm

PM, we simply cannot compare SQ and EK with LX. LX operates in mostly oversaturated markets where competition is tough and where yield is down. SQ is outstanding in quality-they are simply the best- so people are ready to pay more and they have a certain size in Asia which makes them strong. EK is different as well. I think their connections via DXB / OMDB), United Arab Emirates">DXB are unique and their whole route network is unique.
Oh and BTW, a lot of EK routes are o/d routes, like DXB-UK for instance.


So everyone has something special while Swiss is just a normal airline (so in fact most people that connect in ZRH / LSZH), Switzerland">ZRH do it because of the low price LX offers).

Regards,
RJ100

[Edited 2005-03-11 13:18:10]
none
 
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RE: Swiss Sold To LH - New Rumors

Fri Mar 11, 2005 10:00 pm

Quoting RJ100 (Reply 22):
PM, we simply cannot compare SQ and EK with LX.

I know, I know. But it IS possible to sustain a major airline on quality and to build a successful hub that funnels pax through it. That was my point about SQ, EK and CX. In its heyday Swissair was surely doing a lot more than flying Swiss people on O&D flights in and out of ZRH. I know that things change but I find it hard to believe that things are so bad that LX can only put the lights out and hand the keys over to LH. (Or BA or AF or anyone.)
 
a3xx900
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RE: Swiss Sold To LH - New Rumors

Fri Mar 11, 2005 10:25 pm

Hmmm... LH has one hub that is becoming too small (FRA) and built a new terminal at MUC with a lot of space for further expansion. My question is why would LH want to invest in yet another hub (ZRH) and even a loss-making airline to take away traffic from MUC and FRA?
IF LH is going to aquire Swiss I think the smartest move for them would be to downgrade LX to a feeder from Europe and Africa to MUC and FRA and maybe keep BBJ /A319CJ services from ZRH and Basel to the US and high-yield routes to other European destinations.
Why is 10 afraid of 7? Because 7 8 9.
 
poh2
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RE: Swiss Sold To LH - New Rumors

Fri Mar 11, 2005 11:26 pm

RJ100,

I think you're too pessimistic there...SWISS is not a "normal airline"...you should know that. They might not be at SQ's level, but they're certainly not far away and they are definitely a cut above AF, LH, AZ, etc...

Cheers,
Patrick
"Life is too short to take everything seriously."
 
RJ100
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RE: Swiss Sold To LH - New Rumors

Fri Mar 11, 2005 11:27 pm

I understand your point PM. I think quality is just one factor. A lot of people used to fly Crossair and Swissair because of their quality and were ready to pay more for that. But then Swiss is far away from a real quality airline (in terms of on board service). I know its a hard step to reduce the longhaul fleet but once they are small and succesful there is room to grow again.

A3xx900: I think LH just wants to take the chance to get the Swiss customers. Its not about the airline itself. The Swiss customers are good paying and they travel a lot (statistically they travel second most in Europe after the Brits). Hahaha Swiss BBJ / EDRB) (closed), Germany">BBJ service from BSL / MLH / LFSB), France">BSL to EWR / KEWR), USA - New Jersey">EWR? Swiss is rather flying from ZRH / LSZH), Switzerland">ZRH. Talks between the pharma companies and Swiss failed to open a longhaul route out of BSL / MLH / LFSB), France">BSL. But I expect CO to come here in the next year. And one company (Novartis) is currently building their own terminal in BSL / MLH / LFSB), France">BSL. They are probably going to operate a BSL / MLH / LFSB), France">BSL-Morristown NJ BBJ / EDRB) (closed), Germany">BBJ service. Pretty cool  Smile

RJ100

[Edited 2005-03-11 15:32:57]
none
 
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RE: Swiss Sold To LH - New Rumors

Fri Mar 11, 2005 11:29 pm

Thank you, Poh2. Let's not give up yet!
 
RJ100
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RE: Swiss Sold To LH - New Rumors

Fri Mar 11, 2005 11:31 pm

Poh2: Swiss longhaul has a good service level. I agree with you on that. But I wouldnt say they are better than LH or BA there. And then if you connect on a European flight you need to pay for your coffee.

Regards,
RJ100
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jcded
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RE: Swiss Sold To LH - New Rumors

Sat Mar 12, 2005 12:25 am

RJ100, you said that novartis is opening their own terminal at BSL, do you have any more info on this, first time I heard of a private company unrelated to aviation opening their own terminal for their own flights and it could be very interesting in the future.
You breathe to do good and have fun.
 
poh2
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RE: Swiss Sold To LH - New Rumors

Sat Mar 12, 2005 12:47 am

RJ100,

Yes...I should have been more specific...I was talking about their long-haul product. For long-haul flights I personally rate LX above LH, AF, and BA...this is from my own personal experience flying in Y-class on all those airlines.

I agree that their Swiss in Europe concept has brought down their short-haul product and that here there is little difference between LX and its competitors.

-----------------

WHAT IS ONEWORLD THINKING???

Separately, I just can't believe oneworld is just sitting on their behinds watching Star Alliance gobble up Central Europe...what are they thinking? I always thought that LX would fit nicely into oneworld...providing it with a nice hub right smack in the middle of Europe with plenty of growth potential. Currently oneworld has Iberia's MAD, BA's LHR, Aer Lingus' DUB, and Finnair's HEL...ZRH would have been a great complement in my opinion. Back when LX was heading to oneworld, I was already envisioning the new Dock E becoming a sort of oneworld terminal. Too bad...I think it would have been awesome.

Cheers everyone and have a good weekend!
Patrick
"Life is too short to take everything seriously."
 
RJ100
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RE: Swiss Sold To LH - New Rumors

Sat Mar 12, 2005 1:01 am

Hey Jcded

The terminal will be located in the freight zone 4 next to Jet Aviation. They will base two Bombardier Global Express there, rumour has it that they will set up a company shuttle with 2 BBJs once the terminal is finished.
The terminal will be finished this year and includes seperate check-in and custom facilities, a small lounge as well as offices.
They are currently building up huge research facilities in Basel (Novartis Think Campus) and Boston. Not to forget the facilities in New Jersey. They will have a huge demand for air travel between those cities in the future. They were talking with Swiss several times and offered them guaranteed passenger numbers but they want the pax on the ZRH BBJ flight.


[/img]

Regards,
RJ100
none
 
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RE: Swiss Sold To LH - New Rumors

Sat Mar 12, 2005 1:05 am

Quoting Poh2 (Reply 30):
I always thought that LX would fit nicely into oneworld

So did we all. So did LX. AA probably still do. The problem seemed to be some sort of ego problem between BA and LX. I also remember something about the complexity of combining their frequent flier programmes. But it never sounded convincing. If Oneworld are (is?) serious about challenging Star then they need the likes of LX. But I don't think they are. BA, AA and the rest seem to lack direction and urgency. So they'll just let LH gobble up LX and effectively close it down. Who's next? SN Brussels?
 
NceBoy
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RE: Swiss Sold To LH - New Rumors

Sat Mar 12, 2005 1:12 am

Well,
It's a fact LX Y is way better than the other majors in Europe, having fly on most of them on long haul. And I don't only speak of the famous LH lack of PTV's.

I see LX business model as a high class airline, flying routes that have proven their profitability. What they should do is going daily to a handful of main destinations (like increasing to 7x LAX), and then start to grow, and acquire new, middle sized airplanes. LX don't want to be the new LH. They don't want to fly super jumbos around the world.

After all, their loads are not that bad, I thinkt it was about 90 % on long haul.
coz I'm leaving on a jetplane !
 
Dexter
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RE: Swiss Sold To LH - New Rumors

Sat Mar 12, 2005 9:00 pm

Now there's something I don't understand. I can see why LH is interested in taking over LX. In order to get rid of a competitor in Central Europe. But what's in it for LX? No matter what LH officials may promise, I guess it is clear that with LH's own MUC hub around, LX will concentrate on point-2-point services in/out of Switzerland + feeder flights to Star Alliance hubs. Since they can do p2p services even without LH, the only gain from the deal to LX are the "feeder flights". I'm not sure this is such a great idea in the long run as it leaves LX with hardly any room for growth and thus poor prospects for the future. The shareholder banks should realize this is not a good business plan...

PS Why oh why did they not stick to BA and oneWorld?! That would have been so much better for the traveling public.
 
Beaucaire
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RE: Swiss Sold To LH - New Rumors

Sat Mar 12, 2005 9:57 pm

One aspect totally lost in this discussion is Geneva...
GVA has a trackrecord of high-yield customers to US,Middle East and African destinations,which currently is served under-quota by Swiss.
Although ZUR will remain the dominant airport in Switzerland,GVA is an interesting market that should not be under-estimated. Passengers from close french regions ( as far as Lyon ) use GVA for destinations not served by french airports.Businees-class flights from GVA to US and M.East will become an interesting catchment for LH,should they take over Swiss.
Ethnologically ,the people from Zurich don't cope with people from Geneva - differnt culture and language. This has always been reflected in the way Geneva and the french-speaking part of Switzerland was handled by the "gnoms" from the Bahnhofstrasse...
Please respect animals - don't eat them...
 
LifelinerOne
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RE: Swiss Sold To LH - New Rumors

Sat Mar 12, 2005 11:29 pm

Quoting PM (Reply 21):
So is the future a Europe with a very few major hubs (being what? FRA? CDG? AMS? LHR?)

Well, I think PM is right here. I think Europe only has place for a maximum of 5 or 6 hubs. Maybe MXP will join them once Alitalia joins in the Air France-KLM deal.

Cheers!
Only Those Who Sleep Don't Make Mistakes
 
swisswings
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RE: Swiss Sold To LH - New Rumors

Sun Mar 13, 2005 12:38 am

There are regular discussions about the future of LX in the media and with friends. Although LX is recovering slowly (2004 still in deep red), their future as an independent carrier is not secured.
LX is definitely too big for a country like Switzerland and they are dependent on feeder traffic. With low prices offered for transit passengers, Swiss keeps its load factors on long-haul routes high but I doubt they are really making any money. Load factors are, as we all know, no indication on the financial health of a particular route. They love to make us believe in the future of their long-haul operations by throwing at us load factors. Nobody says anything about the profitability of the long-haul routes (e.g. Buenos Aires, Johannesburg, Miami....).

With LH, a strong partner arrives and a real restructuring in the size and pilots corps will happen, one that the LX management has postponed so far. Reducing in cabin crews and low salaried pilots from old Crossair is one thing but not sufficient. The "taboo" ex Swissair pilots needs to be broken. These guys simply earn too much in comparison with their colleagues flying on short-haul flights operated by EMB and AVRO jets and having the same responsibility. Greetings from old Swissair.. Swiss people thought that SR would never disappear. It did. We will not succumb to that again. LX can survive, also without money from the government, but needs a strong partner and a charismatic management. The present CEO of Swiss is not too much of an excitement and shows no visionary skills.
LH, please take over LX and make it fly again. I don't mind to see the stickers on an LH plane saying: "operated by our regional partner Swiss" if that secures jobs and point-to-point flights in Europe. I can live without a Malabo flight and we will survive if there is no non-stop flight from Zurich to Douala, Nairobi or Dar-es-Salaam. We can transit via FRA, LON, CDG or AMS...
 
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RE: Swiss Sold To LH - New Rumors

Sun Mar 13, 2005 1:04 am

Quoting Swisswings (Reply 37):
we will survive if there is no non-stop flight from Zurich to Douala, Nairobi or Dar-es-Salaam.

Er, excuse me. I live in Dar es Salaam. Yeah, we'll survive but I'll thank you not to throw away our thrice a week connection to ZRH.  box  Why do you suggest that some routes are more important or valuable? You want point-to-point routes in Europe? OK, but why do they deserve a higher priority than connecting Switzerland with points south of the Equator? Anyway, point-to-point in Europe isn't paying right now (I've recently flown on empty planes between ZRH and TXL, MUC and BRU) but there's money being made on the LX292/293 ZRH-NBO-DAR route. bigthumbsup 

Quoting LifelinerOne (Reply 36):
I think Europe only has place for a maximum of 5 or 6 hubs. Maybe MXP will join them once Alitalia joins in the Air France-KLM deal.

And maybe MAD for South America?
 
gigneil
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RE: Swiss Sold To LH - New Rumors

Sun Mar 13, 2005 1:19 am

Quoting PM (Reply 21):
So is the future a Europe with a very few major hubs (being what? FRA? CDG? AMS? LHR?) and elsewhere just peripheral airports feeding the giants and providing runways for these dreary LCCs?

With the propensity towards unification in Europe, this was the only inevitable outcome.

Its best for the businesses, and, if done right, can be good for the consumer too.

N
 
swisswings
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RE: Swiss Sold To LH - New Rumors

Sun Mar 13, 2005 1:24 am

PM: Sorry, but the long hauls I quoted were only samples for long-haul routes operated by Swiss. Profitability is required with all of them, otherwise they should be stopped. LX cannot afford to fly to places that make no money but despite of that I think they still are...And, I am sorry to say, but I do not believe that the NBO-DAR route is profitable. Load factors are one thing, as I mentioned, to make money however, is something else.

LX needs to discontinue flying to non-profitable destinations, whether these are overseas or in Europe. As for TXL, I would not be surprised to see this destination in red, as there is heavy competition from Air Berlin (low-cost). MUC is served by LH several times a day from ZRH with good connection traffic beyond MUC. There are mainly consultants flying on LX to MUC. Others take the train or the car. BRU is in code-share with SN and with new onward connections LX/SN they may be better booked, but profitable????

 crying 
 
Ndebele
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RE: Swiss Sold To LH - New Rumors

Sun Mar 13, 2005 3:33 am

Nobody says anything about the profitability of the long-haul routes (e.g. Buenos Aires, Johannesburg, Miami....).
Swiss doesn't fly to Buenos Aires any more.

[Edited 2005-03-12 19:34:15]
 
JoFMO
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RE: Swiss Sold To LH - New Rumors

Sun Mar 13, 2005 9:53 am

http://news.search.ch/?cat=3&id=8768216f317eee42b71ad0256d160f5e

Following a report from the NZZ on Sunday Swiss will inform its major shareholders on Monday how a possible LH take-over will look like.
It also mentions that LH intends to get a controling stake in LX, but that this could be achieved in steps so that LX doesn't loose it's bilateral traffic rights. In contrast to earlier announcements LH doesn't expect fresh money from LX's shareholders anymore.

I would say it looks like a done deal now.
 
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RE: Swiss Sold To LH - New Rumors

Sun Mar 13, 2005 10:44 am

http://www.sonntagszeitung.ch/dyn/news/nachrichten/477842.html

They also report that the Bundesrat (some kind of parliament) has discussed the Swiss topic on Friday.

In addition to my writing above, this article also mentions that LH guarantees the Swiss brand and the hub ZRH. LH will even help LX to get 3 additional long haul planes. All major shareholders have agreed selling LX to LH.

There are only two hurdles left: The Bundesrat wants a guarantee for the ZRH hub and LH says that the current cost saving programm for 300 million Franks has to be completed. Routes from BSL and 13 short haul aircrafts have to be transfered to another company. It doesn't say if that could be LHRegional affilate or an complete seperate company.
 
flyyul
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RE: Swiss Sold To LH - New Rumors

Sun Mar 13, 2005 11:17 am

HB-IWC,

We must acknowledge that ZRH alone, is a market that commands a certain origin and destination traffic strength.

ZRH, on its own, could probably have direct air services to many places, including ORD/BOS/YUL.

Should LH abandon and spill this traffic, there are no guarantees that LH would become the market share leader. Other airlines would increase service and competitive itineraries to grab the spill.
 
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RE: Swiss Sold To LH - New Rumors

Sun Mar 13, 2005 5:26 pm

Quoting Swisswings (Reply 40):
BRU is in code-share with SN

Indeed, and I was somewhat startled in November last year when the Swiss flight attendant announced, "This flight is operated in cooperation with Sabena."  Wow! I well know it's still a touchy subject in Belgium. A dangerous slip of the tongue!
 
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RE: Swiss Sold To LH - New Rumors

Sun Mar 13, 2005 5:36 pm

Quoting Swisswings (Reply 40):
LX needs to discontinue flying to non-profitable destinations, whether these are overseas or in Europe.

Agreed. (Or, I suppose, make them profitable.)

Why did they pull out of Nigeria? I though that was a highly profitable market.
 
racko
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RE: Swiss Sold To LH - New Rumors

Mon Mar 14, 2005 2:33 am

It's official:

Deutsche Lufthansa AG and Swiss International Air Lines AG are in constructive negotiations about the take-over and integration of SWISS into the Lufthansa group. Both companies jointly developed the business model, which is subject to the approval of the Lufthansa supervisory board, the relevant SWISS-corporate bodies as well as the SWISS core shareholders. If the required approvals are obtained, Lufthansa will submit an offer to the free float shareholders based on the average share price of the recent weeks.

The jointly developed business model aims at providing a concentration of the strengths of both airlines, while retaining the independence of SWISS to the extent possible. The cornerstones include, inter alia, maintaining the air traffic infrastructure within Switzerland as well as the brand “Swiss”.

Both companies will inform about the progress of the negotiations in due time.

Deutsche Lufthansa AG
Corporate Communications
 
Phaeton
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RE: Swiss Sold To LH - New Rumors

Mon Mar 14, 2005 2:37 am

Here is a link to a German news website with the article:

http://www.spiegel.de/wirtschaft/0,1518,346254,00.html
"History will be kind to me for I intend to write it.", Winston Churchill
 
JoFMO
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RE: Swiss Sold To LH - New Rumors

Mon Mar 14, 2005 3:08 am

It is an interesting fact that only the 14% smaller shareholders will get the current price. The remaining 86% are held by big institutional shareholders. They will only get an 'symbolic' price.

I am not sure if they are happy with that, but I guess most of them already have written off their investment in Swiss and are happy to get rid of LX without further losses.