jumbojet
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Why No Delta Routes To China From JFK?

Sat Mar 12, 2005 3:14 am

I have often wondered, why doesnt Delta offer routes to China from JFK? Since they have a pretty extensive European network from JFK, why not China? Maybe that will increase there chances of landing future service to China destinations. Is there something that prohibits them from flying JFK to China? Just curious. Nothing is written down where China routes have to originate from Atlanta, any theories on this?

thx

steve
 
AeroWesty
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RE: Why No Delta Routes To China From JFK?

Sat Mar 12, 2005 3:18 am

1) Frequencies are limited by bilateral agreements,
2) In the last round of route allotments Delta applied for service ex-ATL.

Apparently they don't want to fly to China from JFK. There are a number of threads on US-China service available through the search function.  Smile
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RDUDDJI
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RE: Why No Delta Routes To China From JFK?

Sat Mar 12, 2005 3:32 am

DL wanted to get the domestic pax lift from their ATL hub. They don't have a major domestic presence in JFK.

Plus JFK has service to China from many other carriers which would limit their premiums on fares.
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SESGDL
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RE: Why No Delta Routes To China From JFK?

Sat Mar 12, 2005 6:00 am

Quoting RDUDDJI (Reply 2):
DL wanted to get the domestic pax lift from their ATL hub. They don't have a major domestic presence in JFK.

From JFK domestically DL serves:

SEA, SFO, LAX, LAS, DEN, STL, ORD, DTW, IND, CMH, CVG, ATL, DCA, IAD, BWI, PHL, ORF, CHS, CAE, RDU, GSO, JAX, PNS, TLH, MCO, TPA, RSW, FLL, PBI, BOS, CLT, GSP, MLB, MYR, PIT, SLC, SJU, and SAV. That's more destinations than any other carrier at JFK. I'd say DL's network at JFK is sizable.

Jeremy
 
stlgph
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RE: Why No Delta Routes To China From JFK?

Sat Mar 12, 2005 6:07 am

I think Delta would be smarter to look into Salt Lake City to China. Or maybe there are just a lot of Chinese who wish to take their kids to Disney World?
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bobnwa
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RE: Why No Delta Routes To China From JFK?

Sat Mar 12, 2005 7:01 am

Jeremy,

Of the many cities you listed as having DL service to JFK; not too many would be a convieniant connection to China. Maybe DCA, IAD, BWI,PHL,BOS, but the rest, no. It would be faster to head west for a connection!

Junbojet,
DL doesn't have the authority to fly to China from JFK.
 
gigneil
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RE: Why No Delta Routes To China From JFK?

Sat Mar 12, 2005 7:16 am

Delta applied for JFK-China routes the time prior to this last route, and none were awarded to them.

N
 
ramerinianair
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RE: Why No Delta Routes To China From JFK?

Sat Mar 12, 2005 7:41 am

SESGDL,
Who is going to connect from SEA, SFO, LAX, LAS, DEN, STL, ORD, DTW, IND, CMH, CVG, ATL . . . .etc . . . to go to China?
Also, DL lacks the long range A/C that could service this route. I do not think that their 763ER could service these routes.
SR
W N = my Worst Nightmare!!!!!
 
gigneil
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RE: Why No Delta Routes To China From JFK?

Sat Mar 12, 2005 7:43 am

When DL first pitched China (1999) they had just received their first 777, and were planning to put 777s on the China routes while the M11s continued to ply their Europe and Tokyo routes.

N
 
tinpusher007
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RE: Why No Delta Routes To China From JFK?

Sat Mar 12, 2005 7:44 am

SESGDL...Um DL does operate 8 777-232ER's with plenty of range to operate JFK-PEK/PVG.
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jumbojet
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RE: Why No Delta Routes To China From JFK?

Sat Mar 12, 2005 9:42 am

Quoting Gigneil (Reply 6):
Delta applied for JFK-China routes the time prior to this last route, and none were awarded to them.

Why would none be awarded to them? After all, Delta has more international flights out of JFK then they do ATL. Apparently, Delta has been denied multiple times routes to China. Why is it, that China routes are some of the most profitable out there?
 
ramerinianair
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RE: Why No Delta Routes To China From JFK?

Sat Mar 12, 2005 9:59 am

I think the real question is . . . Who does CO and AA know on the inside that DL doesn't???
SR
W N = my Worst Nightmare!!!!!
 
WDBRR
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RE: Why No Delta Routes To China From JFK?

Sat Mar 12, 2005 10:35 am

Delta has the largest hub in the world in ATL.
If you cannot get somewhere from ATL, the place
doesn't exist. They have a huge feed of traffic
there that would fill up the China flight.
 
jumbojet
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RE: Why No Delta Routes To China From JFK?

Sat Mar 12, 2005 11:01 am

Quoting WDBRR (Reply 12):
They have a huge feed of traffic
there that would fill up the China flight.

Apparently the powers that be dont agree with you. However, what was the official reason why DL didnt get the coveted China routes? Was it because of the supposed lack of demand for China from ATL?
 
incitatus
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RE: Why No Delta Routes To China From JFK?

Sat Mar 12, 2005 11:07 am

Quoting WDBRR (Reply 12):
They have a huge feed of traffic
there that would fill up the China flight.

Maybe but the China routes were a competitive award: Two spots for three carriers. Look at the relative position of Atlanta in US. Most traffic would have to fly back to Atlanta then on to China. If Atlanta was in Idaho, one of the rights would have gone to Delta.
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aaflt1871
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RE: Why No Delta Routes To China From JFK?

Sat Mar 12, 2005 4:50 pm

Quoting TinPusher007 (Reply 9):
Um DL does operate 8 777-232ER's with plenty of range to operate JFK-PEK/PVG

The problem with that is it would take 3 777's to run the route daily, DL simply does not have any laying around to do such a route without taking 3 of their 8 off of other profitable routes!!!.

Quoting WDBRR (Reply 12):
Delta has the largest hub in the world in ATL

Serious Question

Is that true? I know they get the most passengers, while ORD has total movements, but AirTran is also based there in ATL as well taking account for some of the passenger totals, I always thought AA in DFW was the largest hub with little to no competition from others in DFW.
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paulinbna
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RE: Why No Delta Routes To China From JFK?

Sat Mar 12, 2005 5:08 pm

Quoting AAFLT1871 (Reply 15):
Is that true? I know they get the most passengers, while ORD has total movements, but AirTran is also based there in ATL as well taking account for some of the passenger totals, I always thought AA in DFW was the largest hub with little to no competition from others in DFW.

I think (if I am wrong some one please correct me) when DL closed DFW hub and moved everything back to ATL they became the largest hub in the world.
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DeltaMIA
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RE: Why No Delta Routes To China From JFK?

Sat Mar 12, 2005 5:21 pm

Quoting Bobnwa (Reply 5):
Maybe DCA, IAD, BWI,PHL,BOS, but the rest, no. It would be faster to head west for a connection!

That is a little far fetched. In some of those cities there is almost no options other than DL. Such as MLB where DL is the ONLY airline. Other cities DL is by far the dominant airline and thus have more frequent fliers and business fliers. A flight RDU-JFK, GSO-JFK, or SAV-JFK would be at best 30 minutes longer than taking UA, NW, AA and that would be assuming it would be advantageous to take one of their limited offerings in those cities. Same holds true for much of those JFK destinations.

However DL did not want JFK they wanted it to be ATL where there is a even a larger feed.
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jumbojet
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RE: Why No Delta Routes To China From JFK?

Sat Mar 12, 2005 5:21 pm

The question remains the same:

Its obvious DL has a rather large network from JFK to European countries, so it just doesnt make sense why they either:

A) Don't apply for Asian routes from JFK, or do and,

B) Are denied these routes as posted above.

Whatever the case, I am sure they had a plan to aquire more 777's if they were to have been accepted as one of the carriers of choice.

Also, how do they determine that there arent enough asians or other travelers in the southeast to fill the ATL to China market?
 
SHUPirate1
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RE: Why No Delta Routes To China From JFK?

Sat Mar 12, 2005 5:21 pm

Paulinbna-I'm almost certain that Delta's Atlanta hub had been the largest in the world, in terms of movements, for quite some time before their Dallas-Fort Worth pull-down.
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SHUPirate1
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RE: Why No Delta Routes To China From JFK?

Sat Mar 12, 2005 5:25 pm

Jumbojet-According to Delta's own website, as of 12/30/04, in addition to their eight Triple-Sevens already in active service, Delta had 5 firm orders, 20 options, and 5 additional rolling options. However, somebody else would be able to tell me when these delivery slots are, because I have no idea.
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mariner
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RE: Why No Delta Routes To China From JFK?

Sat Mar 12, 2005 5:35 pm

Delta has over $20 billion in debt, has said it won't be able to pay its bill this year, will report a loss even higher than last year's $5 billion, and is tottering on the edge of bankruptcy.

Perhaps they should be setting their house in order before they start buying new aircraft and planning routes to China.

cheers

mariner

[Edited 2005-03-12 09:38:59]
aeternum nauta
 
DeltaMIA
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RE: Why No Delta Routes To China From JFK?

Sat Mar 12, 2005 5:49 pm

Quoting SHUPirate1 (Reply 20):
However, somebody else would be able to tell me when these delivery slots are, because I have no idea.

The next 777 (Ship 7009) is scheduled for delivery 01/31/08. All other 777's scheduled prior to that date have been deferred or sold to other carriers.

The next DL delivery is a 738 (Ship 3772) scheduled to arrive 07/31/06. One of 48 firm orders for the 738 which will be delivered 2 a month for the rest of 2006 and then 3 month in 2007 and on.

There are also several options for the 764 and a couple for 763ER in 2006-2008.
It's a big building with patients, but that's not important right now.
 
SESGDL
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RE: Why No Delta Routes To China From JFK?

Sun Mar 13, 2005 12:27 am

Quoting AAFLT1871 (Reply 15):
Is that true? I know they get the most passengers, while ORD has total movements, but AirTran is also based there in ATL as well taking account for some of the passenger totals, I always thought AA in DFW was the largest hub with little to no competition from others in DFW.

DL's hub at ATL has been the largest since the 1980s.

Quoting Jumbojet (Reply 10):
Why would none be awarded to them? After all, Delta has more international flights out of JFK then they do ATL. Apparently, Delta has been denied multiple times routes to China. Why is it, that China routes are some of the most profitable out there?

DL serves FAR more international destinations from ATL than JFK.

Quoting AAFLT1871 (Reply 15):
The problem with that is it would take 3 777's to run the route daily, DL simply does not have any laying around to do such a route without taking 3 of their 8 off of other profitable routes!!!.

Why do you think DL applied for ATL-PEK in the first place, just to see if they had a chance?!? DL would have relocated 767s to the 777 routes to Europe and would've used the 777 on ATL-PEK.

Jeremy
 
jumbojet
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RE: Why No Delta Routes To China From JFK?

Sun Mar 13, 2005 1:07 am

Quoting SESGDL (Reply 23):
DL serves FAR more international destinations from ATL than JFK.

According to Delta's timetable, the most flights to European countries originate from JFK.
 
aaflt1871
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RE: Why No Delta Routes To China From JFK?

Sun Mar 13, 2005 3:29 am

Quoting SESGDL (Reply 23):
DL's hub at ATL has been the largest since the 1980s.



How do they define largest hub? Total daily # of flights, # of gates.

Quoting SHUPirate1 (Reply 19):
-I'm almost certain that Delta's Atlanta hub had been the largest in the world, in terms of movements

Nope ORD retains that title!!
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DAL767400ER
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RE: Why No Delta Routes To China From JFK?

Sun Mar 13, 2005 4:09 am

Quoting Jumbojet (Reply 24):
According to Delta's timetable, the most flights to European countries originate from JFK.

Not true. From JFK, DL offers 15 daily n/s flights to 14 destinations, plus continuing service to BOM and soon MAA. Other than transatlantic, from JFK DL only has service to YYZ, AUA and NAS.
From ATL, DL has 20 daily flights to 15 destinations. Plus, service to lots of destinations in Mexico, the Caribbean and the Americas, and of course NRT. (all flight info for the summer 05 season).

Quoting AAFLT1871 (Reply 25):
How do they define largest hub? Total daily # of flights, # of gates.

In general, the number of pax, but also aircraft movements, both categories in which DL has reigned for decades.

Quoting AAFLT1871 (Reply 25):
Nope ORD retains that title!!

Wrong. ORD might still have the most plane movements for any airport, but ORD has nowhere nearly as many movements by a single airline as does the combination of DL and ATL.
 
jumbojet
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RE: Why No Delta Routes To China From JFK?

Sun Mar 13, 2005 8:25 am

Quoting DAL767400ER (Reply 26):
Not true. From JFK, DL offers 15 daily n/s flights to 14 destinations, plus continuing service to BOM and soon MAA. Other than transatlantic, from JFK DL only has service to YYZ, AUA and NAS.
From ATL, DL has 20 daily flights to 15 destinations. Plus, service to lots of destinations in Mexico, the Caribbean and the Americas, and of course NRT. (all flight info for the summer 05 season).

That's because there are 2 daily flights from ATL to CDG not to mention the two daily flights from ATL to FRA. Exluding Carribean and the americas, Delta still serves more destinations, NOT FLIGHTS, to Europe from JFK then ATL.
 
SESGDL
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RE: Why No Delta Routes To China From JFK?

Sun Mar 13, 2005 8:53 am

Jumbojet,

WRONG.

From ATL:

SNN x1
DUB x1
MAN x1
LGW x3
CDG x2
AMS x1
BRU x1
MAD x1
BCN x1
FCO x1
MXP x1
ZRH x1
STR x1
FRA x2
MUC x1
SVO x1 (Starts soon)

-15 Destinations, 19 Flights

JFK:

CDG x2
BRU x1
AMS x1
MAD x1
BCN x1
FCO x1
MXP x1
VCE x1
NCE x1
FRA x1
ATH x1
IST x1
SVO x1
TXL (Starts MAY 1, 2005) x1

-14 Destinations, 15 Flights

Jeremy
 
MAH4546
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RE: Why No Delta Routes To China From JFK?

Sun Mar 13, 2005 9:01 am

If you look at current operations, however, JFK and ATL are even, with 13 each. As stated, JFK-TXL and ATL-SVO have not started yet, while ATL-BCN is summer-only.

[Edited 2005-03-13 01:01:57]
a.
 
B4REAL
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RE: Why No Delta Routes To China From JFK?

Sun Mar 13, 2005 9:09 am

Quoting SESGDL (Reply 28):
MAD x1
BCN x1

SESGDL> For the winter, DL flight 90 goes JFK-BCN-MAD, so your count should be 14 destinations, 14 flights.
B4REAL, spelled like it sounds
 
avek00
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RE: Why No Delta Routes To China From JFK?

Sun Mar 13, 2005 3:52 pm

"Also, how do they determine that there arent enough asians or other travelers in the southeast to fill the ATL to China market?"

By examining the current traffic flows. The bottom line is that a China route ex-ATL would be EXTREMELY weak in O&D (not to mention connecting) traffic compared to a simlar flight ex-EWR or ex-any of the legacy Midwestern hubs. Truth be told, Delta would have had a stronger case if it applied for China flying ex-CVG or even ex-DFW than ex-ATL.
Live life to the fullest.
 
jumbojet
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RE: Why No Delta Routes To China From JFK?

Sun Mar 13, 2005 8:05 pm

Quoting Avek00 (Reply 31):
The bottom line is that a China route ex-ATL would be EXTREMELY weak in O&D

Fine, then operateAsia from JFK. as mentioned above, they have an extensive International network from JFK. In any case, it seems to be then that DL will most likely never obtain any more Asian/china routes other then the one NRT slot they currently have. I find it hard to believe that the only market, other then the west coast, is Illinois and New York for China routes.

I guess DL can only expand further into Europe which they cover rather extensively already, and maybe South America?
 
DAL767400ER
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RE: Why No Delta Routes To China From JFK?

Sun Mar 13, 2005 11:10 pm

Quoting Jumbojet (Reply 32):
I guess DL can only expand further into Europe which they cover rather extensively already, and maybe South America?

They will. As has been stated, ATL-SVO and JFK-TXL will start this summer, and to South America DL still has their plans for ATL-GIG. Europe-wise, anything is possible, e.g. DL returning on former routes ex JFK, like MAN, MUC or DUB/SNN. So far, only rumors, but it is likely we will see more European destinations ex JFK, and more South American destinations ex ATL.
Btw ATL service to Ireland is only one flight, that, depending on the day of week, either goes ATL-DUB-SNN-ATL or vv.
 
jumbojet
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RE: Why No Delta Routes To China From JFK?

Mon Mar 14, 2005 2:10 am

Quoting DAL767400ER (Reply 33):
ATL-SVO and JFK-TXL will start this summer, and to South America DL still has their plans for ATL-GIG. Europe-wise, anything is possible, e.g. DL returning on former routes ex JFK, like MAN, MUC or DUB/SNN. So far, only rumors, but it is likely we will see more European destinations ex JFK, and more South American destinations ex ATL.

Hopefully these new destinations will aide delta financially in staying clear of filing for bankruptcy. It's to good an airline, IMO anyway, for this to have to happen to.

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