TWA902fly
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Question About Song JFK-SEA/SFO/LAX

Sun Mar 13, 2005 4:44 pm

Is song replacing Delta on the JFK-SEA/SFO/LAX routes or flying in addition to Delta? Seems like Delta would lose a lot of high-paying customers on the JFK-California routes... or am i wrong?

TWA902
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AeroWesty
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RE: Question About Song JFK-SEA/SFO/LAX

Sun Mar 13, 2005 4:59 pm

According to this thread:

http://www.airliners.net/discussions...general_aviation/read.main/1926236

... it will be in addition to. Refer especially to Reply #15 by Alb222 that details the upcoming services, and that flights connecting to international services will still be flown by Delta mainline.

Cheers.
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DeltaMIA
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RE: Question About Song JFK-SEA/SFO/LAX

Sun Mar 13, 2005 5:18 pm

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 1):
Refer especially to Reply #15 by Alb222 that details the upcoming services, and that flights connecting to international services will still be flown by Delta mainline.

Its wrong. All flights will be taken over by Song. Throughout the transition there will be both mainline and Song flights operating on a single route, but JFK-LAX will be all Song on 06/18, JFK-SFO will be all Song on 09/01 and JFK-SEA will be all Song on 09/02.

Quoting TWA902fly (Thread starter):
Seems like Delta would lose a lot of high-paying customers on the JFK-California routes... or am i wrong?

They probably will, but will ultimately gain more customers. Those are highly competitive routes and DL didn't like its position as was in the markets. They feel they can generate more revenue by offering Song service over mainline service.
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AeroWesty
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RE: Question About Song JFK-SEA/SFO/LAX

Sun Mar 13, 2005 5:28 pm

Quoting DeltaMIA (Reply 2):
Its wrong. All flights will be taken over by Song.

Wow, good to know. Thanks for updating that. I read through the entire thread and never saw anyone correct it.

Cheers.
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padcrasher
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RE: Question About Song JFK-SEA/SFO/LAX

Sun Mar 13, 2005 11:22 pm

Delta does not have alot of high paying premium flyers on these routes. In fact Delta yields the lowest among the majors flying between NYC and the West coast. What premium there is still left is divided among AA and UA and even this yield has been shot to hell.
 
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RE: Question About Song JFK-SEA/SFO/LAX

Sun Mar 13, 2005 11:28 pm

Quoting Padcrasher (Reply 4):
Delta does not have alot of high paying premium flyers on these routes. In fact Delta yields the lowest among the majors flying between NYC and the West coast. What premium there is still left is divided among AA and UA and even this yield has been shot to hell.

Problem with NYC-LAX is that the yields are much lower than they used to be. With B6 in the market, and now Song, yields are likely to decrease even more. DL obviously cares more about revenue than high premium paying customers. Many business travellers have moved to flying LCCs anyway, it's really pointless to pay the hgihest fare when a cheaper one exists.

Jeremy
 
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RE: Question About Song JFK-SEA/SFO/LAX

Sun Mar 13, 2005 11:42 pm

I think the big loser in all this is American. They are fighting UA with their "P.S" service for the high yielding passenger up front. UA arguably has a better premium product here. And they are trying to compete with Song that has better coach product. I'm hoping they pull some of their 11 frequencies to bring up the yields.
 
roseflyer
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RE: Question About Song JFK-SEA/SFO/LAX

Mon Mar 14, 2005 12:40 am

The JFK-SFO/LAX route is interesting now. You have UA going for all premium passengers by not even offering regular economy and only having Economy Plus on their P.S. service, and then you have Song going for all the cheap travelers. AA is somewhere in between trying to serve both markets evenly and kind of failing to offer what each class of passengers want. HP is on the route, but doesn't have much frequency and B6 flies to secondary airports.

Overall there is one place where DL will lose. A person from LAX, SFO or SEA connecting in JFK to an international flight in Business class won't be happy spending the first 5-6 hours of their journey in economy (even if it has been Songized). These people may want to take their business to UA, NW, CO or AA out of LAX and go through a different hub, or try to transfer in ATL rather then JFK. I don't know how much of a market this is, but DL is certainly losing it. I am curious to see who does the best, but have a suspicion that UA might pull out ahead with high frequency, and better service even though it is on 757s since New York to LA and SFO does have a lot of premium travelers since it is a rather long flight.
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alb222
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RE: Question About Song JFK-SEA/SFO/LAX

Mon Mar 14, 2005 12:45 am

The original model was to retain 1 DL mainline between JFK-LAX/SFO for Int'l connections. The model was changed to all Song. The reason had to do with the fare issue. Song and mainline offer different things in their coach product, so how is the same fare going to work.
 
padcrasher
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RE: Question About Song JFK-SEA/SFO/LAX

Mon Mar 14, 2005 12:52 am

The fare will either be broken in JFK where it will be a Song fare or it will be a International through fare. In this case the Intl ticket is governed by the Intl fare rules.


DL at JFK has alot of unique routes. IST, ATH, NCE, BCN, VCE. Passengers in LAX are looking for a non-stop of course but in absence of this they really do not mind a Song flight to JFK. It's almost an afterthought if they can get the upgrade over the Atlantic. Upgrades are hard to come by to Europe out of LAX.
 
TWA902fly
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RE: Question About Song JFK-SEA/SFO/LAX

Mon Mar 14, 2005 2:47 am

Quoting Alb222 (Reply 8):
The original model was to retain 1 DL mainline between JFK-LAX/SFO for Int'l connections. The model was changed to all Song. The reason had to do with the fare issue. Song and mainline offer different things in their coach product, so how is the same fare going to work.

I think that could still possibly work, as many of the 1x daily JFK flights are unreasonably expensive. the ORD-JFK CRJ has never sold under $300, because they are saving those seats for people connecting to Europe. In the winter you can get ORD-JFK-CDG-JFK-ORD for $500 or so... and if you were to try to book ORD-JFK-ORD seperately it would cost you $300 or so... disproportionally expensive. I am thinking if they had a 1x daily 762 or 752 on LAX-JFK with the same pricing structure.... most people would avoid that flight unless they were flying to Europe anyways... SFO and SEA same thing. Friends of mine have been users of the flight in the past, flying SVO-JFK-SFO and SEA-JFK-SVO.

TWA902
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roseflyer
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RE: Question About Song JFK-SEA/SFO/LAX

Mon Mar 14, 2005 2:47 am

Padcrasher, I don't know about them not caring. I know that there are some top executives in my family that live in SEA, and they are actively avoid connecting through IAD with UA because the domestic first class isn't good enough let alone economy. They prefer a short hop on Star to YVR, SFO, DEN or somewhere else to get where they want to go in Europe. Of course they fly in internantional first almost exclusively, so they wouldn't fly DL anyway, but still I am sure that some people would actively avoid DL if they have to take Song for 1/3 of their trip. If they want to stay with Skyteam to more obscure destinations, then they might just take AF to CDG nonstop and connect from there, or switch carriers. It takes significantly longer connecting through the east coast anyway since it is not close to the normal routes from the west. So the option longer flying times and lower service is not appealing. But I will admit that not everyone considers this as a factor, but you have to remember that most business travelers traveling in the upper cabins are pretty smart and realize this stuff, otherwise they wouldn't be in the position to be flying up there.
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TWA902fly
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RE: Question About Song JFK-SEA/SFO/LAX

Mon Mar 14, 2005 3:01 am

Quoting RoseFlyer (Reply 11):
They prefer a short hop on Star to YVR, SFO, DEN or somewhere else to get where they want to go in Europe.

and Star through DEN can get them all over Europe as long as they connect again in FRA

Also- you might try talking to them, as UA has the same first class flying to DEN SFO or IAD... flights to IAD are scheduled at 4:55 flying time, DEN 2:30, SFO 2:10.. which means the IAD flight adds 2-3 extra hours, not bad if youre already sitting there for 2... as for the comment about YVR... i think this family doesnt do good logic thinking, they cant tolerate the first class to IAD, but even the short hop to YVR on a DHC-8-300 prop seems like something they wouldnt even consider. I wish i was rich enough to not want to fly a certain first class.

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RE: Question About Song JFK-SEA/SFO/LAX

Mon Mar 14, 2005 3:23 am

Indeed I feel Delta is making a mistake dropping mainline service on these transcon routes. They will loose not just some premium O&D traffic between the cities, however more importantly those premium passengers looking to fly on DL's extensive Atlantic network beyond JFK.

It is however very hard mixing a LCC product and mainline on the same routes. This is one thing UA paid very close attention to with its TED product. Mixing mainline and LCC not only skews fare buckets, but also can create confusion amongst consumers experiencing a mixed product presentations. United used a revenue model to choose potential mainline routes that could be converted to LCC. Under their model these transcons (especially LAX & SFO) would never qualify due to their nature of having a significant amount of premium business traffic.

Certainly this move by Delta will help increase UA and AA's transcon premium traffic.
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DeltaMIA
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RE: Question About Song JFK-SEA/SFO/LAX

Mon Mar 14, 2005 3:46 am

Quoting Alb222 (Reply 8):
The original model was to retain 1 DL mainline between JFK-LAX/SFO for Int'l connections

Actually from the get go it was going to be all Song. Somehow it got circulated that there would be mainline flights along side the Song flights because they had yet to be pulled from the computer system. That caused a little bit of confusion.

Quoting RoseFlyer (Reply 7):

Overall there is one place where DL will lose. A person from LAX, SFO or SEA connecting in JFK to an international flight in Business class won't be happy spending the first 5-6 hours of their journey in economy (even if it has been Songized).



Quoting Padcrasher (Reply 9):
DL at JFK has a lot of unique routes. IST, ATH, NCE, BCN, VCE. Passengers in LAX are looking for a non-stop of course but in absence of this they really do not mind a Song flight to JFK. It's almost an afterthought if they can get the upgrade over the Atlantic.

Delta interlines with all carriers that provide a premium product LAX/SFO/SEA-JFK. If someone is really going to fly full fare business to VCE then they can have a single etkt for travel LAX UA JFK DL VCE. The LAXJFK portion is a small percentage of the ticket DL is willing to forgo that in their effort to increase revenue with point to point traffic. However most travelers will fly Song just to keep their travel within the DL system.
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RE: Question About Song JFK-SEA/SFO/LAX

Mon Mar 14, 2005 4:13 am

Quoting Alb222 (Reply 8):
The reason had to do with the fare issue. Song and mainline offer different things in their coach product, so how is the same fare going to work

The above is incorrect. Take the following example:

Fares: LAX-JFK on song = on Oct 10 one way was $174.20 at fare code T.

Then I clicked up LAX-CVG-JFK on DL mainline and the fare, fee, and taxes total was $179.90 at fare code T.

Song and DL have the same fare structure. The difference between these two is that there is a segment fee and a landing fee @ CVG. The fare is the same, as long as you are flying a married route. As you are not flying LAX-Cincinnati-JFK, you are flying LAX-JFK, the fare does not matter how you get there, CVG, ATL, SLC.... But the inventory of said fares do matter.

DL needs to keep the same fare basis for their routes, regardless of Song or DL operating it - as they are the same airline (long story..). Song also allocates the inventory of fare code T differently (more T's available) than DL mainline, due to the intent of a lower CSM. Even with Simplifares this is true.
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roseflyer
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RE: Question About Song JFK-SEA/SFO/LAX

Mon Mar 14, 2005 4:31 am

TWA902, I didn't say they were all that logical, but they hate flying long domestic flights, and then transferring international, when they could get the international standards of service and comfort for the majority of the flight. I am sure there are many other business travelers that will avoid Song across the country. Business travelers might interline or deal with a long economy flight, or they may be inclined to do a one stop through Europe since all the big European carriers fly to LAX and fly far more places in Europe and Asia then DL ever will.

Trasitioning to Song is a risk, and I am sure that DL management has examined the possible ramifications carefully and feel that the loss of premium cabins will be insignificant since a lot of traffic can connect through ATL to Europe since most of the destinations that command a lot of premium traffic are served from both ATL and JFK since JFK keeps transitioning to a lower cost airport.
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TWA902fly
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RE: Question About Song JFK-SEA/SFO/LAX

Mon Mar 14, 2005 5:00 am

Quoting RoseFlyer (Reply 16):
am sure there are many other business travelers that will avoid Song across the country.

I agree with you on that, i think DL is losing the top-notch business traveller on these routes, which seem to be the backbone of american air travel... i mean LAX-JFK is between the two biggest cities in america. however, the comment about that family was that they would actually avoid flying UA first class to IAD trans-con was the one i was talking about. really had nothign to do with this thread i guess. if they dont fly the UA A320/A319 on SEA-IAD, i doubt they'd go with DL's mainline 757 to JFK, or is it 738 these days?

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RE: Question About Song JFK-SEA/SFO/LAX

Mon Mar 14, 2005 6:27 am

Why don't they just SONG the whole mainline domestic system, DL the international and Connect the rest?

It's where they're headed anyway....
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alb222
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RE: Question About Song JFK-SEA/SFO/LAX

Mon Mar 14, 2005 7:05 am

Quoting B4real (Reply 15):
The above is incorrect. Take the following example:

You missed the point............it had not to do with charging the same fare on the route..............it had to do with charging the same fare for two different products on the same route.

Quoting DeltaMIA (Reply 14):
Actually from the get go it was going to be all Song. Somehow it got circulated that there would be mainline flights along side the Song flights because they had yet to be pulled from the computer system. That caused a little bit of confusion.

The initial discussion was to keep one mainline ER from LAX continuing to FCO, however that was dropped when aircraft availibility became an issue.

We all have our sources.inhouse, rumor etc. Bottom line, it is all Song.
 
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RE: Question About Song JFK-SEA/SFO/LAX

Mon Mar 14, 2005 9:54 am

Quoting Alb222 (Reply 19):
You missed the point............it had not to do with charging the same fare on the route..............it had to do with charging the same fare for two different products on the same route.

I disagree. I think you offer the two different products if it makes sense - for whatever reason. Somewhat like DL mainline running ATL-FLL and song running ATL-FLL - why for access to maintenance. That makes sense. Why run Delta Connection on a route and Delta mainline on the same route? Because it makes sense for reasons of frequency and demand. Why run the 738 in 2 class config ATL-SAV and ATL-GSO (for example) and then squeak in the 738 shuttle config to mix products? Must make sense for some reason. Just to keep GSO pax guessing, we'll also have DL connection on that route. Trust me, DL is not the best at product differentiation, though I think they are trying to do such on SFO/LAX-JFK.

I think it would make sense to have a mainline DL timed for Int'l connections @ JFK. DL thinks otherwise.
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DeltaMIA
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RE: Question About Song JFK-SEA/SFO/LAX

Mon Mar 14, 2005 2:00 pm

Quoting B4real (Reply 20):
I think it would make sense to have a mainline DL timed for Int'l connections @ JFK. DL thinks otherwise.

With 7 daily flights from LAX and 5 daily flights from SFO I don't think connections are an issue. The new flights from LAX arrive at 3:19pm, 4:19pm and 6:40pm. 597 seats to make international connections.
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B4REAL
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RE: Question About Song JFK-SEA/SFO/LAX

Tue Mar 15, 2005 10:28 am

Quoting DeltaMIA (Reply 21):

With 7 daily flights from LAX and 5 daily flights from SFO I don't think connections are an issue. The new flights from LAX arrive at 3:19pm, 4:19pm and 6:40pm. 597 seats to make international connections.

Agreed, but they are song connections - back to the earlier topic of not being able to sell a premium seat LAX-JFK-SVO or LAX-JFK-IST or LAX-JFK-ATH or the other destinations served...
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RE: Question About Song JFK-SEA/SFO/LAX

Tue Mar 15, 2005 10:53 am

Quoting B4real (Reply 22):
Agreed, but they are song connections - back to the earlier topic of not being able to sell a premium seat LAX-JFK-SVO or LAX-JFK-IST or LAX-JFK-ATH or the other destinations served...

The thing is, DL is distantly behind UA and AA in premium traffic. Go beyond that and you have the European carriers that offer non-stops anyway. They simply cannot fill the premium cabins for those connections, so they traded off that possibility in order to compete for O&D and lower yield connections
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alb222
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RE: Question About Song JFK-SEA/SFO/LAX

Tue Mar 15, 2005 10:53 am

Quoting B4real (Reply 22):
Agreed, but they are song connections - back to the earlier topic of not being able to sell a premium seat LAX-JFK-SVO or LAX-JFK-IST or LAX-JFK-ATH or the other destinations served...

I do agree that I think DL is erring in not providing a premium linkup for SFO/LAX/SEA passengers connecting in JFK, I would imagine that DL crunched the numbers as far as Int'l conections from those locales and found that the numbers did not warrant the mainline service. Route most via ATL or insome cases, CVG. Besides ATH and IST, what other points are not served from ATL n/s?
 
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RE: Question About Song JFK-SEA/SFO/LAX

Tue Mar 15, 2005 11:10 am

Quoting B4real (Reply 22):
Agreed, but they are song connections - back to the earlier topic of not being able to sell a premium seat LAX-JFK-SVO or LAX-JFK-IST or LAX-JFK-ATH or the other destinations served

Talking about unique destinations from JFK, I take the JFK-IST flight on DL very often and its full or almost full most of the time(Business especially), I have to add its over booked most of the summer time, when fares are substantially higher. Does anyone have the loads for JFK-IST? I always wondered how profitable that flight is for DL.
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RE: Question About Song JFK-SEA/SFO/LAX

Tue Mar 15, 2005 12:49 pm

Quoting Padcrasher (Reply 9):
DL at JFK has alot of unique routes. IST, ATH, NCE, BCN, VCE. Passengers in LAX are looking for a non-stop of course but in absence of this they really do not mind a Song flight to JFK. It's almost an afterthought if they can get the upgrade over the Atlantic. Upgrades are hard to come by to Europe out of LAX.

I don't think Delta is making a mistake, per se. If I am a premium Delta frequent flyer from LAX, and I want to go to Europe (to any of those "unique" cities listed), I will fly Air France, connect at CDG, enjoy premium service all the way across the pond, and get my Delta miles while doing so. I can't imagine premium travellers from the West Coast want to connect through JFK when they could make it across the Atlantic without stopping.

I don't think Delta is giving up much of a market, if any, and they probably know this, which is why it's going all-Song.
 
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RE: Question About Song JFK-SEA/SFO/LAX

Tue Mar 15, 2005 12:52 pm

Premium passengers are only a fraction of flyers anyway. For instance, DL 757s only have 22 first class seats, compared with 161 economy seats. The majority of people travel in coach, and they're catering to this group of people. Premium paying passengers are getting harder and harder to come by, and the airlines are adjusting as needed. Eventually AA and UA will cut premium passengers as well, it's becoming pointless with everyone using the LCCs.

Jeremy
 
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RE: Question About Song JFK-SEA/SFO/LAX

Tue Mar 15, 2005 1:01 pm

Quoting SESGDL (Reply 27):
Eventually AA and UA will cut premium passengers as well, it's becoming pointless with everyone using the LCCs.

There will always be a demand for premium service between the coasts, given the entertainment, high-tech, and financial industry crowds. I agree it is a smaller market, but I don't foresee AA or UA getting out of the premium transcon market (barring, of course, a collapse of UA).
 
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RE: Question About Song JFK-SEA/SFO/LAX

Tue Mar 15, 2005 9:43 pm

Quoting Alb222 (Reply 24):
Besides ATH and IST, what other points are not served from ATL n/s

Off the top of my head: VCE, NCE, (BCN and SVO until summer) on DL. Codeshares to PRG, CBN, TLV, and likely others.
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DeltaMIA
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RE: Question About Song JFK-SEA/SFO/LAX

Tue Mar 15, 2005 10:39 pm

Quoting B4real (Reply 29):
Off the top of my head: VCE, NCE, (BCN and SVO until summer) on DL. Codeshares to PRG, CBN, TLV, and likely others.

Starting in the summer TXL. Also the direct flights to MAA and BOM.

I think you mean CMN instead of CBN.
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RE: Question About Song JFK-SEA/SFO/LAX

Wed Mar 16, 2005 2:39 am

Quoting DeltaMIA (Reply 30):
think you mean CMN instead of CBN

Yep! Thank,s DeltaMIA. Good note also on TXL.
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gokmengs
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RE: Question About Song JFK-SEA/SFO/LAX

Wed Mar 16, 2005 3:54 am

Quoting Gokmengs (Reply 25):
Does anyone have the loads for JFK-IST? I always wondered how profitable that flight is for DL.

Guys again I would appreciate if anyone can post the loads on DL JFK-IST route? Thanks a lot.
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LAXintl
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RE: Question About Song JFK-SEA/SFO/LAX

Wed Mar 16, 2005 5:03 am

Quoting Gokmengs (Reply 32):
Guys again I would appreciate if anyone can post the loads on DL JFK / KJFK), USA - New York">JFK-IST / LTBA), Turkey">IST route? Thanks a lot.

While loads in themselves do not prove if a flight is profitable, here are the DL loads factors for IST / LTBA), Turkey">IST-JFK / KJFK), USA - New York">JFK for the last 4 available quarters.

4Q03 - 76%
1Q04 - 70%
2Q04 - 76%
3Q04 - 92%

Keep in mind however the airline only provided daily service during the 2nd and 3rd quarters. During the 1st and 4th quarter they only operated 4 flights per week.
As you can see the market is definitely a seasonal one with a strong summer peak.

[Edited 2005-03-15 21:06:37]
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gokmengs
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RE: Question About Song JFK-SEA/SFO/LAX

Wed Mar 16, 2005 6:34 am

Quoting Laxintl (Reply 33):
Keep in mind however the airline only provided daily service during the 2nd and 3rd quarters. During the 1st and 4th quarter they only operated 4 flights per week.
As you can see the market is definitely a seasonal one with a strong summer peak.

Thank you so much Laxintl, I take that flight very often( I wish tehy cahange the equipment once every while Smile and I knew about the frequency adjustments for the seasons, its just that everytime I flew that route the plane had a good amount of pax.(Summer time especially) Also I always wondered how some of the people here get those load numbers, is it an internal info only for the employees or is it public access? Thanks
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DeltaMIA
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RE: Question About Song JFK-SEA/SFO/LAX

Wed Mar 16, 2005 8:49 am

Quoting Gokmengs (Reply 34):
I wish tehy cahange the equipment once every while

There is no equipment to change it to. 777's won't ever find their way into IST as they are rarely sent to JFK as it is.
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gokmengs
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RE: Question About Song JFK-SEA/SFO/LAX

Wed Mar 16, 2005 10:07 am

Quoting DeltaMIA (Reply 35):
There is no equipment to change it to. 777's won't ever find their way into IST as they are rarely sent to JFK as it is.

Thats true DeltaMIA you rarely see those birds at JFK. Man but I would love to know the age of the 763ER's that they use for most of the transcon routes, I doubt they are very old but if you flown in one they are not in the greatest shape. We all know though DL is not in a position to update their fleet or modernizing the interior of their current fleet, so I hope the whole industry does better and they will have a better product.
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padcrasher
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RE: Question About Song JFK-SEA/SFO/LAX

Wed Mar 16, 2005 10:17 am

Quoting Gokmengs (Reply 36):
. We all know though DL is not in a position to update their fleet or modernizing the interior of their current fleet,

Well this came out today.


http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/050315/nytu145_2.html

And they just completed the MD-80 interiors not long ago.

And the livery is about complete

So looks like some attention is being paid to fleet improvements.
 
gokmengs
Posts: 901
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RE: Question About Song JFK-SEA/SFO/LAX

Wed Mar 16, 2005 11:01 am

Quoting Gokmengs (Reply 36):
And they just completed the MD-80 interiors not long ago.

I don't know if I'm being selfish but(My destinations rarely if ever is on MD-80's) I wished they made the improvements in their larger equipment(767 especially) Do you agree? But its a good point that you refer to it does show signs and intentions of improvements.
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B4REAL
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RE: Question About Song JFK-SEA/SFO/LAX

Wed Mar 16, 2005 11:38 am

Quoting Padcrasher (Reply 37):
And they just completed the MD-80 interiors not long ago

MD-80 fleet is NOT complete. Flew 2 birds on Sunday with old interiors.

Quoting Gokmengs (Reply 38):
I wished they made the improvements in their larger equipment(767 especially) Do you agree?

Heck yeah! I'm with you there. The press releases are not clear if the airline is to update interiors on all a/c or just the MD-80 fleet. This is what the press release says about the cabins:

"In addition to maintaining two classes of service, upgraded and updated cabins, with features such as leather seats with more comfort and better lighting, will be phased in over the next 18 months to offer more inviting interiors. The first MD-88 with the new interiors will begin flying by the middle of this month"

Taken from: http://news.delta.com/print_doc.cfm?article_id=9471
B4REAL, spelled like it sounds
 
DAL767400ER
Posts: 5084
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 2:47 am

RE: Question About Song JFK-SEA/SFO/LAX

Wed Mar 16, 2005 8:00 pm

Quoting Padcrasher (Reply 37):
And they just completed the MD-80 interiors not long ago.

Definitely not. The new leather seats were announced not too long ago, and with DL's 120-strong fleet, it will still take them some months before all are redone, at least until the end of the year if they are being redone on regular MX circles.
 
DeltaMIA
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RE: Question About Song JFK-SEA/SFO/LAX

Thu Mar 17, 2005 12:56 am

Quoting Gokmengs (Reply 36):
Man but I would love to know the age of the 763ER's that they use for most of the transcon routes, I doubt they are very old but if you flown in one they are not in the greatest shape.

The avg. age is 9.5 years. The first one being delivered in 06/90 and the most recent delivery being 08/01.
The appearance is perception. DL never modified its order to the new style interior that Boeing began offering in the late 90's. So while a majority of the fleet could have the 777 style interior DL decided to keep the older less expensive early 80's design. So even though the plane is 4 years old it appears to be even older.
It's a big building with patients, but that's not important right now.
 
B4REAL
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RE: Question About Song JFK-SEA/SFO/LAX

Thu Mar 17, 2005 1:20 am

Quoting DeltaMIA (Reply 41):
The avg. age is 9.5 years. The first one being delivered in 06/90 and the most recent delivery being 08/01.
The appearance is perception. DL never modified its order to the new style interior that Boeing began offering in the late 90's. So while a majority of the fleet could have the 777 style interior DL decided to keep the older less expensive early 80's design. So even though the plane is 4 years old it appears to be even older

Well said.
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WindowSeat
Posts: 1200
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RE: Question About Song JFK-SEA/SFO/LAX

Thu Mar 17, 2005 1:26 am

.

Quoting RoseFlyer (Reply 7):
A person from LAX, SFO or SEA connecting in JFK to an international flight in Business class won't be happy spending the first 5-6 hours of their journey in economy (even if it has been Songized).

If you only knew the amount of business class travelers who have started flying jetBlue, you would not say that.

Quoting Gokmengs (Reply 25):
Talking about unique destinations from JFK, I take the JFK-IST flight on DL very often and its full or almost full most of the time(Business especially), I have to add its over booked most of the summer time, when fares are substantially higher.

Exactly, so why should DL think of the few connecting passengers from LAX or SFO when they can manage to fill it up with people connecting from, lets say Duluth or the huge O&D traffic from JFK itself. Not to mention that DL codeshares on AF flights out of LAX and SFO.


The key for Delta, IMO, will be to provide excellent service on their Song product. From what I have heard, the buzz on Song flights is much different than mainline. While mainline product is not bad, if they can have the added comfort of IFE, food on board (be it purchase) and just plain honest fair service, it'll be a hit. The moment the mainline attitude steps on Song that'll be the end.

cheers



.
I'm all in favour of keeping dangerous weapons out of the hands of fools. Let's start with keyboards.
 
gokmengs
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RE: Question About Song JFK-SEA/SFO/LAX

Thu Mar 17, 2005 1:50 am

Quoting DeltaMIA (Reply 41):

I don't think thats too bad, but the outdated interior does give the old plane feeling to pax.

Quoting DeltaMIA (Reply 41):
The appearance is perception.

I think the appearance is very very important in the way the pax evaluates the airline as a whole.

Quoting DeltaMIA (Reply 41):
So while a majority of the fleet could have the 777 style interior DL decided to keep the older less expensive early 80's design.

Man if they opted for the less expensive option back than in the good old days, our chances of seeing new interiors or new aircrafts from DL are slim to none for a foreseeable future.
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gokmengs
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RE: Question About Song JFK-SEA/SFO/LAX

Thu Mar 17, 2005 2:00 am

Quoting WindowSeat (Reply 43):
The key for Delta, IMO, will be to provide excellent service on their Song product. From what I have heard, the buzz on Song flights is much different than mainline. While mainline product is not bad, if they can have the added comfort of IFE, food on board (be it purchase) and just plain honest fair service, it'll be a hit. The moment the mainline attitude steps on Song that'll be the end.

I think Song has a great chance of being highly profitable in a short time period, but the question is what happens to DL? If Song does great and DL keeps changing major domestic routes to Song is DL going to be international fly only airline that is fed by Song from destinations all over the U.S. I know its a very far fetched idea since DL still operates thousand of flights in U.S. but whats DL's future?
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B4REAL
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RE: Question About Song JFK-SEA/SFO/LAX

Thu Mar 17, 2005 5:18 am

Quoting Gokmengs (Reply 45):
Song does great and DL keeps changing major domestic routes to Song is DL going to be international fly only airline that is fed by Song from destinations all over the U.S.

This is starting to happen to select Int'l destinations - NAS and AUA in particular. If it is successful, sure, I bet we'd see more.
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gokmengs
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RE: Question About Song JFK-SEA/SFO/LAX

Thu Mar 17, 2005 5:29 am

Quoting B4real (Reply 46):
This is starting to happen to select Int'l destinations - NAS and AUA in particular. If it is successful, sure, I bet we'd see more.

If that works maybe DL will focus on improving service and quality overall, because I believe there is more room to increase prices on International routes. This could allow(considering DL improving service, meals, aircraft) DL to compete with the likes of SQ and EK, increased routes flights and if all goes well it would be substantial increase in intl revenue. Then again If my aunt had....................
I would love to see DL in SQ like shape.
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BillElliott9
Posts: 237
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RE: Question About Song JFK-SEA/SFO/LAX

Thu Mar 17, 2005 5:50 am

I flew Song MCO - LAX on 4 March. Was able to snag an exit row seat and I thought it was one of the best flights I've ever had. Great service, great IFE, etc.

On Monday I flew DL LAX-ATL-PBI in F on a 7674 and 7673. The service was terrific but I swear I was more comfortable on Song than in F on mainline DL. I will try to avoid the 7674 from now on -- it seemed really cramped. The 7673 was is dire need of a new interior. Like I said, the service was great but having been on Song gave me a different perspective.

Therefore given my choice on a transcon I would chose Song over DL mainline F or Y class.
You can fight without ever winning but never really win without a fight.
 
B4REAL
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RE: Question About Song JFK-SEA/SFO/LAX

Thu Mar 17, 2005 6:39 am

Quoting BillElliott9 (Reply 48):
from now on -- it seemed really cramped

Yes, 764 is a bit cramped in F. Seats 7E and 7F are the only good ones, they feel like BizE seats.

Quoting BillElliott9 (Reply 48):
The 7673 was is dire need of a new interior

Preaching to the choir...  wave 

Quoting Gokmengs (Reply 47):
I would love to see DL in SQ like shape.

Me too, but that's a long way from where we are now. And I'm not just being rude, DL is my favorite.
B4REAL, spelled like it sounds

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