flyinTLow
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Airbus A330 - Why So Successful So Late?

Wed Mar 16, 2005 8:36 am

Hey everyone!

I was just looking around planemad.net and while i was scanning through the production list of the Airbus A330, I began to wonder:

The A330 is a very successful plane today with lots and lots of orders. NW, LH, EK, US, CX, and the new chinese orders, just to name a few. But what took the plane so long to get successful? As far as I remember, the aircraft's maiden flight was in 1995? But orders didn't seem to really pick up till the late ninties? What took the airline's so long to figure the plane out? Why were they so hesitant at first? Or was there just no demand in the eyes of the airlines for a plane like this?

Any comments appreciated!
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LPLAspotter
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RE: Airbus A330 - Why So Successful So Late?

Wed Mar 16, 2005 8:47 am

Perhaps the "spike" in sales that you are seeing coincide with the introduction of the popular 200 series of the A330

LPLAspotter
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ZRH
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RE: Airbus A330 - Why So Successful So Late?

Wed Mar 16, 2005 9:02 am

Yes, I think it was the 330-200 that made this airliner popular. At the beginning the -300 was too big (specifically in comparison to the B 763) and had too less range.
 
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LAXintl
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RE: Airbus A330 - Why So Successful So Late?

Wed Mar 16, 2005 9:05 am

I believe part of reason for increased recent A330's success (especially the -200 series) has been the decision by several operators to replace their DC-10, B763 and even A300 fleets.
The A330 has the ability to economically operate both on short regional segments and also intercontinental routes.
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brons2
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RE: Airbus A330 - Why So Successful So Late?

Wed Mar 16, 2005 9:35 am

The recent MTOW hike on the -300 didn't hurt either.
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m404
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RE: Airbus A330 - Why So Successful So Late?

Wed Mar 16, 2005 10:06 am

Could dissatisfaction with the -340 have helped any late decisions?
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ZRH
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RE: Airbus A330 - Why So Successful So Late?

Wed Mar 16, 2005 10:11 am

Quoting M404 (Reply 5):
Could dissatisfaction with the -340 have helped any late decisions?

Who is dissatisfied with the 340?
 
Ryanair!!!
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RE: Airbus A330 - Why So Successful So Late?

Wed Mar 16, 2005 3:08 pm

Well, SIA for one - they sure ditched their 343s in a hurry! And the rumours about CX and VS being unhappy about the 346s, I wonder what became of those?
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Speedbird2155
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RE: Airbus A330 - Why So Successful So Late?

Wed Mar 16, 2005 3:21 pm

Quoting Ryanair!!! (Reply 7):
And the rumours about CX and VS being unhappy about the 346s, I wonder what became of those?

Not sure about CX, but if VS is unhappy with their A346, it doesn't show since the fleet seems to be getting larger and the FAs seem to love them...at least those I've spoken to.
 
musapapaya
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RE: Airbus A330 - Why So Successful So Late?

Wed Mar 16, 2005 3:32 pm

only CX publicly said that they are not happy with 346, VS, LH and IB seem like them.
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bill142
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RE: Airbus A330 - Why So Successful So Late?

Wed Mar 16, 2005 4:28 pm

didn't CX get early A346's which had the heavy wing? Perhaps VS, LH and IB are happier since they got lighter ones. Although I do recall hearing something about IB getting ones with heavy wings.
 
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PM
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RE: Airbus A330 - Why So Successful So Late?

Wed Mar 16, 2005 5:29 pm

Dissatisfaction with the 346 of course has nothing to do with boosting sales of the A330. I think M404 was thinking of the 343.
 
musapapaya
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RE: Airbus A330 - Why So Successful So Late?

Wed Mar 16, 2005 5:34 pm

PM, seems likely that you are right, but i have to say that both the 346, 343 or 330 are good aircrafts. the 343 is excellent if you dont mind its slow climbing rate.
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Carpethead
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RE: Airbus A330 - Why So Successful So Late?

Wed Mar 16, 2005 5:35 pm

Similar to the 757, the A330 took a while for sales to take-off.
The reverse can be said about the A343 as there have been very little activity of late. The higher MTOW of the A333 is one of the factors of eating into the A343 market plus established A343 carriers are satisfied that they no longer need to order more.
 
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PM
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RE: Airbus A330 - Why So Successful So Late?

Wed Mar 16, 2005 5:45 pm

Quoting Musapapaya (Reply 12):
PM, seems likely that you are right, but i have to say that both the 346, 343 or 330 are good aircrafts. the 343 is excellent if you dont mind its slow climbing rate.

Oh, I wasn't passing judgement on the 343, just trying to clarify what the debate was about.

Something else that occurs to me is the premis in the original thread: "...successful so late?". "So late?" At best the 330 is merely middle-aged in airliner terms and it has so far sold 500 examples. The 767, for example, is a decade or more older and hasn't yet reached 1,000. I suspect that the 787/A350 will quickly bring the A330 story to a premature end but I don't see its sales so far as being problematic. How many DC10/MD11s were sold over 30 years?
 
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keesje
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RE: Airbus A330 - Why So Successful So Late?

Wed Mar 16, 2005 6:51 pm

Airlines want to benefit from the growth now. An efficient 250-300 seater with good cargo capasity is instrumental in this. The 787 will be available after 2009, so most have limited options.
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
gkirk
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RE: Airbus A330 - Why So Successful So Late?

Wed Mar 16, 2005 6:57 pm

I thought it was CX and SAA that were unhappy with their 346s?
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RayChuang
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RE: Airbus A330 - Why So Successful So Late?

Wed Mar 16, 2005 11:11 pm

If Airbus had stuck to their production schedule of only the A330-300, sales of the A330 would have stayed relatively low outside of Asia because its range (circa 5,000 nautical miles) would not be sufficient for flights from Europe to much of the rest of the world. It was only at the airlines' prodding that Airbus offered the A330-200, which with its 6,400 nm range made it possible to fly from Europe to most of the world's destinations non-stop. I believe that AF uses the A332 on flights from CDG to former French African colonies, where the airline makes lots of €'s per flight.
 
su184
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RE: Airbus A330 - Why So Successful So Late?

Wed Mar 16, 2005 11:12 pm

If CX were that unhappy with their A346's, why then they still operate them specially they only have 3 leased ones, they could have swapped them for a -"better"- performing aircrafts as some people might like to say, I see the A346 as THE perfect aircraft in many aspects.
 
WindowSeat
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RE: Airbus A330 - Why So Successful So Late?

Wed Mar 16, 2005 11:34 pm

Quoting SU184 (Reply 18):
If CX were that unhappy with their A346's, why then they still operate them specially they only have 3 leased ones, they could have swapped them for a -"better"- performing aircrafts as some people might like to say...

Perhaps because there aren't many aircraft, that are relatively new and similar to A346 in capacity and range, currently available...

cheers
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gigneil
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RE: Airbus A330 - Why So Successful So Late?

Wed Mar 16, 2005 11:38 pm

Quoting Gkirk (Reply 16):
I thought it was CX and SAA that were unhappy with their 346s?

South African Airlines is overwhelmingly amazed by the performance of their A340-600s.

N
 
rootsair
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RE: Airbus A330 - Why So Successful So Late?

Thu Mar 17, 2005 12:23 am

too bad the -300 series didn't have that many orders.To my eyes its esthetically the nicest looking bird out there along with the 744 and MD 11
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PM
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RE: Airbus A330 - Why So Successful So Late?

Thu Mar 17, 2005 1:00 am

Quoting Gigneil (Reply 20):
South African Airlines is overwhelmingly amazed by the performance of their A340-600s.

A somewhat ambiguous statement. Amazed = delighted or appalled? wink 
 
PHXinterrupted
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RE: Airbus A330 - Why So Successful So Late?

Thu Mar 17, 2005 1:09 am

Quoting Keesje (Reply 15):
Airlines want to benefit from the growth now. An efficient 250-300 seater with good cargo capasity is instrumental in this. The 787 will be available after 2009, so most have limited options.

According to Boeing's 787 website:

Production will begin in 2006. First flight is expected in 2007 with certification, delivery and entry into service occurring in 2008.
Keepin' it real.
 
aerosol
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RE: Airbus A330 - Why So Successful So Late?

Thu Mar 17, 2005 1:55 am

Quoting PHXinterrupted (Reply 23):
Production will begin in 2006. First flight is expected in 2007 with certification, delivery and entry into service occurring in 2008.

Yes, but when do you get one if you order one now (delivery slot problem)...

it seems like everytime Airbus is discussed, someone has to bring up these stupid 346 rumors.

Please continue with the 330 topic!
 
aerlingus330
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RE: Airbus A330 - Why So Successful So Late?

Thu Mar 17, 2005 3:15 am

I prefere the A330-300 rather to the A330-200. How many Airlines actually operate both? I know that Aer Lingus do. They tend to operate the -300 to the Eastern U.S.A and the -200 to the Western U.S.A. This is probably because of the volume of passengers looking to travel to New York ect and the Range of the Aircraft.

One reason that im guessing that Airlines tended to go for the A330-200 rather to the A330-300 is. The -200 is a mid capicity, Long Range airliner. The -300 is a large capacity, Medium Range Airliner. It has all got to do with the market changing. Around the 1995 years, the Airlines showed little intrest in the A330s. However, now the Airlines have made them more popular by buying them. This is because the market now wants Mid capicity, long range airliners such as the A330-200, rather than the A330-300. I think the time will come to an end for the in the not so far future A330, i mean by " The Time Is comming to an end", by little orders will be placed for them. The market is changing as we speak, no longer will the Major Long Haul Airlines want airliners that can travel 10,000km or 12,000km. They want airliners that can travel 15,000 or more such as the A340-500/600 and the devolipment of new technologys as in the A350 and the 787.

AerLingus330
Aer Lingus Airbus A330-300
 
NCLairport
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RE: Airbus A330 - Why So Successful So Late?

Thu Mar 17, 2005 5:44 am

US Aiways operates both the -200 and -300.

I did notice a surge in operators of the A330 in the late 90's. All of a sudden all of the British companies were using them for long haul:

Airtours/MyTravel
Thomas Cook
Monarch

I love flying on them.....just wish they would climb quicker!!
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ba319-131
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RE: Airbus A330 - Why So Successful So Late?

Thu Mar 17, 2005 5:49 am

Sorry NCLairport, US have ordered the -200, but have not received any yet.

Rgds

Mark
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NCLairport
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RE: Airbus A330 - Why So Successful So Late?

Thu Mar 17, 2005 6:19 am

really? oh cool that means i've flown on the -300 and did not even realise hahaha.

I flew MAN to PHL on US Airways and thought I was on a -200. I think the MyTravel jet i was on was a -200. What are the differences from a visual perspective.......internal and external? How would I know I was on a -200/-300?
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aerlingus330
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RE: Airbus A330 - Why So Successful So Late?

Thu Mar 17, 2005 6:26 am

Mainly the length of the two aircraft, The -300 is 64 metres long and the -200 is 59 metres long. Its a bit weird, but you just know which is which. Its probably because They are my favourate aircraft.

These are the Specs of both

Airbus A330-200

Overall length- 59 m
Fuselage Diameter- 5.64
Height- 17.40 m
Wing Span- 60.3 m
Max Takeoff Weight- 230 Tonnes
Max Landing Weight- 180 Tonnes
Max Fuel Capacity- 139 100 Litres
Engines- Two CF6-80E1, PW 4000 or Trent 700
Typical Seating- 253 or 293
Range- 12 500 km
Max Cruise Speed- Mach 0.86


Airbus A330-300

Overall length- 63.6 m
Fuselage Diameter- 5.64 m
Height- 16.5 m
Wing Span- 60.3 m
Max Takeoff Weight- 230 Tonnes
Max Landing Weight- 185 Tonnes
Max Fuel Capacity- 97 530 Litres
Engines- Two CF6-80E1, PW 4000 or Trent 700
Typical Seating- 295 or 335
Range- 10 500 km
Max Cruise Speed- Mach 0.86

The main visual differences are the Length and the Seating.
Hope this Helps  Smile

EDIT: Yes, the Mytravel that you were on was a -200

The A330-200 The A330-300

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Photo © Mike Moores


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Mario Aurich



AerLingus330

[Edited 2005-03-16 22:33:51]

[Edited 2005-03-16 22:36:19]
Aer Lingus Airbus A330-300
 
Carpethead
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RE: Airbus A330 - Why So Successful So Late?

Thu Mar 17, 2005 7:58 am

In addition to EI; KE, QF, & NW. AF (Air Inter) has operated both types of aircraft but not at the same time, I believe.
 
SAS_A330-300
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RE: Airbus A330 - Why So Successful So Late?

Thu Mar 17, 2005 8:42 am

Quoting Carpethead (Reply 30):
In addition to EI; KE, QF, & NW. AF (Air Inter) has operated both types of aircraft but not at the same time, I believe.

Add MH to the list.
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pelican
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RE: Airbus A330 - Why So Successful So Late?

Thu Mar 17, 2005 9:30 am

Quoting NCLairport (Reply 26):

I love flying on them.....just wish they would climb quicker!!

What's wrong with their climb performance?

pelican
 
gigneil
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RE: Airbus A330 - Why So Successful So Late?

Thu Mar 17, 2005 9:47 am

Nothing. At all. A330s rocket off the runway.

A340-300s have a somewhat slower rate of climb.

N
 
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lightsaber
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RE: Airbus A330 - Why So Successful So Late?

Thu Mar 17, 2005 9:48 am

Quoting ZRH (Reply 2):
Yes, I think it was the 330-200 that made this airliner popular.

The -200 added the range that QA, NW, and others required to make the airframe interesting. While the -300 has since "stretched its legs," its still 2000km (~1000nm) shy of being a strong contender across the pacific.

Quoting NCLairport (Reply 26):
I love flying on them.....just wish they would climb quicker!!

???? The A330 has thrust for hot/high. I think you're thinking A340-300. But lets stick on the A330 topic, its one of my favorite airframes.  Smile

Recall that it was in the late 1990's that spare cargo capacity became a MAJOR selling point for an airframe. This helped the A330 pull away from the 767 family. Note: I really do like 767 family, but its 15 year sales life is done, time for the 787. Also, NW doesn't buy airframes at launch, only after they're proven.  duck 

Lightsaber
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AFinMIA
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RE: Airbus A330 - Why So Successful So Late?

Thu Mar 17, 2005 9:59 am

Just a personal opinion, but it is a very nice looking a/c. It's may favorite Airbus by far. I cannot wait for my first ride in one next week on Aer Lingus.
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: Airbus A330 - Why So Successful So Late?

Thu Mar 17, 2005 10:12 am

Quoting Gigneil (Reply 20):
South African Airlines is overwhelmingly amazed by the performance of their A340-600s.

...the overstatement of the year

Quoting Gigneil (Reply 33):
A340-300s have a somewhat slower rate of climb.

...the understatement of the year



Way to go Piggie Big grin
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flyinTLow
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RE: Airbus A330 - Why So Successful So Late?

Thu Mar 17, 2005 7:15 pm

Quoting Carpethead (Reply 30):

Add Lufthansa to that, as they operated the A330-200 ex-Sabena aircraft. Kinda funny though, as they seem to go contrary to the trend. They got rid of all the ex-Sabena 200s and ordered 300s. They fly them across the pond and into Africa and the Near East.

But how popular is this aircraft nowadays compared to the 767 for example or the A340? (counting by how many airlines fly this aircraft)
- When dreams take flight, follow them -
 
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PM
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RE: Airbus A330 - Why So Successful So Late?

Thu Mar 17, 2005 7:37 pm

Quoting FlyinTLow (Reply 37):
Add Lufthansa to that, as they operated the A330-200 ex-Sabena aircraft.

Some (I think 2) were ex-Sabena and the others (I think 3) were ex-Swissair.

Quoting FlyinTLow (Reply 37):
Kinda funny though, as they seem to go contrary to the trend. They got rid of all the ex-Sabena 200s and ordered 300s.

Not that unusual. The -300 is still selling. The 20 for China Eastern are all -300s. Anyway, I think LH took the -200s AFTER they'd ordered their -300s and just to fill the gap (and gain experience) before their own ten planes arrived. In other words, it was -300s they wanted all along. Which is not to say they won't still order -200s. I hope they do!
 
NCLairport
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RE: Airbus A330 - Why So Successful So Late?

Thu Mar 17, 2005 11:22 pm

I think the 330 climb performance is poor. When we took off from SFB the climb was really sluggish and it seemed to take ages to get any height. Same happened when departing from Toronto on an A330.......very slow climb!
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cornish
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RE: Airbus A330 - Why So Successful So Late?

Thu Mar 17, 2005 11:37 pm

It wouldn't be the first airliner to take time for the market to really warm to it.

Look at the Boeing 737 of course, now phenominally successful, but it started off as a slow seller - the original -100 series sold in very few numbers, it was once the -200 came along that sales really got going.

The A300 is another.

When the A330 was launched, the first Boeing 767s were still relatively young in operational terms - 10 yearts later they are needing replacing, and many were not ready to replace their DC-10s either. Many airlines that are now A330 operators were also MD-11 operators back then and had only had the aircraft a few years. These are now mainly being turned over to cargo conversion leaving a gap to be filled by a mixture of a330s/a340s and 777s, depending on the operator and their use.

Also the rapid growth in air travel over the last few years in the Far East has had a big impact as the A330 has proved to be well suited to regional routes and most major carriers in the region have ordered the aircraft for this very purpose.

As for the charter operators, well longer haul destinations such as the caribbean have grown for the package tour industry and as such the economincs make sense to operate A330s non-stop rather than smaller ones with an east coast US stop.

Put simply, the A330 successfully answers a number of different operational questions for many different operators around the world. That is why its sales are on the up - at least until the next generation of aircraft answers the questions better.
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RayChuang
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RE: Airbus A330 - Why So Successful So Late?

Fri Mar 18, 2005 2:15 pm

Quoting Cornish (Reply 40):
Also the rapid growth in air travel over the last few years in the Far East has had a big impact as the A330 has proved to be well suited to regional routes and most major carriers in the region have ordered the aircraft for this very purpose.

In fact, when Airbus first marketed the A330-300 back in the middle 1980's, the plane was intended primarily for medium-range high-density Asian routes. As such, the A333 has sold quite sell for Asian airlines, as witnessed for fleets sold to CX, KE, MH and a number of Chinese airlines.
 
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PM
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RE: Airbus A330 - Why So Successful So Late?

Fri Mar 18, 2005 5:40 pm

Quoting RayChuang (Reply 41):
the A333 has sold quite sell for Asian airlines, as witnessed for fleets sold to CX, KE, MH and a number of Chinese airlines.

In fact, China Eastern is the only one to have bought the 333. (China Southern has bought A330-200s and I'm pretty sure the Air China order is also for -200s.) But you can add Dragonair, Philippines Airlines, Garuda, Thai and Qantas (who fly them into Asia) to this list of Asian carriers who have bought the 333.
 
trex8
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RE: Airbus A330 - Why So Successful So Late?

Sat Mar 19, 2005 5:11 am

and CIs orders for 14, 2 leases and 2 options
 
gigneil
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RE: Airbus A330 - Why So Successful So Late?

Sat Mar 19, 2005 5:13 am

Quoting NCLairport (Reply 39):
I think the 330 climb performance is poor.

Its not a subjective topic. The A330 maintains climb performance in FPM comparable to a 777.

N

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