WindowSeat
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Not Guilty Verdicts In Air India 182 Bombing

Thu Mar 17, 2005 4:28 am

Judge Ian Bruce Josephson in Canada has just announced a not guilty verdict for the two men on trail for the fatal bombing of Air India 182 over the Atlantic in 1985 killing 329 people.

See the full story link:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4353555.stm

Twenty years on, no real closure for families I guess. Apart from one suspect who admitted to his role and got 5 yrs, no one has been brought to justice for this crime.
I'm all in favour of keeping dangerous weapons out of the hands of fools. Let's start with keyboards.
 
B747-437B
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RE: Not Guilty Verdicts In Air India 182 Bombing

Thu Mar 17, 2005 4:45 am

Shocking.

Having followed the AI 182 case closely for the better part of two decades myself, including a number of days spent at the trial in Vancouver, I am stunned that Josephson could reach this verdict.

I really feel for the families right about now, as well as for the investigators and prosecutors who have given their careers to this case.

The only wish I have now is that this case serves as a wakeup call to reform CSIS and hold them accountable for the wiretap evidence that they destroyed.
"The A340-300 may boast a long range, but the A340 is underpowered" -- Robert Milton, CEO - Air Canada
 
jasepl
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RE: Not Guilty Verdicts In Air India 182 Bombing

Thu Mar 17, 2005 4:54 am

From the CBC: "Josephson said he simply did not believe the testimony of witnesses who linked the men to the two bombs. Calling them inconsistent, he said they surfaced too late to be credible, though he accepted the Crown's theory that there was a conspiracy to bring down Air India flights."

And here's an excerpt from his actual ruling:

"I began by describing the horrific nature of these cruel acts of terrorism, acts which cry out for justice. Justice is not achieved, however, if persons are convicted on anything less than the requisite standard of proof beyond a reasonable doubt. Despite what appear to have been the best and most earnest of efforts by the police and the Crown, the evidence has fallen markedly short of that standard."


Unexpected verdict, certainly. Perhaps even unacceptable and 'wrong'. But if the Justice's argument is valid, it can't be called unfair.

[Edited 2005-03-16 20:59:14]
 
CXH
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RE: Not Guilty Verdicts In Air India 182 Bombing

Thu Mar 17, 2005 4:56 am

More details from the CBC: (see more information in the background links on the CBC page)

http://www.cbc.ca/story/canada/natio...03/16/air-india-advance050316.html

According to the Judge, the evidence against the two was mostly circumstantial. It should be noted the actual bomb maker got 10 years for the Narita bombing and 5 for this one (but will get paroled early). And the "mastermind" was killed in 1992.

But I agree, the lack of closure must be gut renching for the families and others involved.
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gamps
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RE: Not Guilty Verdicts In Air India 182 Bombing

Thu Mar 17, 2005 5:15 am

Did anyone really expect justice at Canada - a country which even today grants asylum to Sikh terrorists? This verdict will only increase movement of thousands of Khalistanis from India to Canada under the pretext that Indian govt kills Sikhs. And Canadian govt willingly buys it even though India is now ruled by a Sikh Prime Minister.

Wonder why they even bothered to spend all those millions on trial - should have kept aside for hosting the Khalistani terrorists and grant asylum to them. Anyway as one relative of a victim said "God will take care of these Khalistanis". I won't be surprised if Khalistan movement in Indian Punjab raises its head again now that Canada has cleared their leaders.
 
aseem
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RE: Not Guilty Verdicts In Air India 182 Bombing

Thu Mar 17, 2005 5:23 am

They have conveniently put blame on of the accused who was slain by Indian police. What's the harm in blaming when he is already dead.
Even their own www.cbc.ca found the verdict shocking.
rgds
Aseem
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jaysit
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RE: Not Guilty Verdicts In Air India 182 Bombing

Thu Mar 17, 2005 5:57 am

Did anyone really expect justice at Canada - a country which even today grants asylum to Sikh terrorists? This verdict will only increase movement of thousands of Khalistanis from India to Canada under the pretext that Indian govt kills Sikhs. And Canadian govt willingly buys it even though India is now ruled by a Sikh Prime Minister.

Give me a break.

Shocking and unpleasant as the verdict may be, the justice system in Canada has done its best under very difficult circumstances - lousy witnesses, and less than fully incriminating evidence.

Losing one's entire family in what was essentially a mass murder is horrific, but all one can hope from the wheels of justice is a fair trial, not a confirmed verdict.
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B747-437B
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RE: Not Guilty Verdicts In Air India 182 Bombing

Thu Mar 17, 2005 6:31 am

Quoting Jaysit (Reply 6):
the justice system in Canada has done its best under very difficult circumstances

Sorry Jay, but the system failed here and failed miserably.

If the system had run as prescribed, with all evidence being made available and all agencies acting with a common interest, it would have been a different story.

Notably :

a) Talwinder Singh Parmar was a Canadian citizen who founded the Babbar Khalsa, a terrorist group that was responsible for a number of atrocities in India during the 1980s. He was charged with multiple counts of murder in India in 1982, but the Canadian Government declined an extradition request in 1984.

b) Talwinder Singh Parmar was under round-the-clock surveillance by CSIS in the period leading up to the Air India 182 bombing. CSIS surveillance logs link him conclusively to an explosives test in British Columbia conducted by Inderjit Sigh Reyat mere weeks before the bombing. Yet CSIS failed to notify either the RCMP or the Indian High Commission that Parmar, a wanted terrorist, was engaging in such acts.

c) 150 different tapes of CSIS wiretap surveillance on Parmar and Malik were intentionally destroyed in 1988 for reasons best known to the agency. This information came to light from a whistleblower former CSIS agent in 2000.

d) In 1996, Inspector Graham Bass, the lead RCMP Investigator in the case penned a confidential memo (subsequently obtained by the National Post) where he accused CSIS of interfering with his investigation and destroying evidence.

The problem here appears to be that CSIS was caught with a number of their so-called "informants" and "agents" in the Sikh community having deep involvement in the plot while on CSIS payroll and rather than expose their own shortcomings and failure on that front they instead chose to destroy evidence to cover up.
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avek00
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RE: Not Guilty Verdicts In Air India 182 Bombing

Thu Mar 17, 2005 6:43 am

"The problem here appears to be that CSIS was caught with a number of their so-called "informants" and "agents" in the Sikh community having deep involvement in the plot while on CSIS payroll and rather than expose their own shortcomings and failure on that front they instead chose to destroy evidence to cover up."

It could be the case that Canada's national security interests require that the information on those tapes not be made public, whatever the cost to a particular trial. It's unfortunate, yes, but perhaps necessary for the greater good of the Canadian people.
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jaysit
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RE: Not Guilty Verdicts In Air India 182 Bombing

Thu Mar 17, 2005 6:52 am

c) 150 different tapes of CSIS wiretap surveillance on Parmar and Malik were intentionally destroyed in 1988 for reasons best known to the agency. This information came to light from a whistleblower former CSIS agent in 2000.

Well, thats just it.

I don't doubt that Parmar is guilty, but with the prosecution's best evidence completely destroyed, how could a Court issue a verdict of guilt?

However, you're correct that the Justice system (law enforcement agencies, etc) failed miserably. However, Courts are limited by what they have in front of them, not what they could have had. Thus, the Court's hands appear to have been tied based on what it believed to be inconclusive evidence, even though the prosecution tried its best.

This is very sad. The Indo-Canadian community must be devastated.
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gamps
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RE: Not Guilty Verdicts In Air India 182 Bombing

Thu Mar 17, 2005 6:53 am

B747-437b,

Interesting observation on destruction of tapes. Are there many Khalistani types in the CSIS? Anyway this verdict is going to haunt Canada in general as the children of these terrorists are growing up not exactly as role models. Chinese, Vietnamese, Russian gangs are fast being replaced or already replaced by these Khalistani youth.

I bet today here at Fremont and San Jose Gurudwaras there will be sweets distributed and verdict celebrated!
 
WestWing
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RE: Not Guilty Verdicts In Air India 182 Bombing

Thu Mar 17, 2005 7:05 am

I found this link to the full text of the judgement on CBC's AI Backgrounder Page.

[Edited 2005-03-16 23:15:09]
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jaysit
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RE: Not Guilty Verdicts In Air India 182 Bombing

Thu Mar 17, 2005 7:23 am

I bet today here at Fremont and San Jose Gurudwaras there will be sweets distributed and verdict celebrated!

That is the stupidest thing said on here so far.
Numerous victims of the AI182 crash were Sikhs.
You're attributing the crimes of a few to the entire Sikh community and all Gurudwara leaders, which puts you somewhere in the same camp as the Congress(I) types who led a pogrom against Sikhs back in 1984 in the wake of Mrs. G's assasination.
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aseem
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RE: Not Guilty Verdicts In Air India 182 Bombing

Thu Mar 17, 2005 7:35 am

Cool down folks!! Not the happiest moment in Indian avaition history. crying 
rgds
Aseem
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gamps
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RE: Not Guilty Verdicts In Air India 182 Bombing

Thu Mar 17, 2005 8:12 am

Jaysit,

With all due respect I suggest you visit these Gurudwaras and see for yourself how these terrorists are glorified. Khalistani movement has become nothing but immigration attornies playground who take the gullible illegal immigrants for a ride by promising asylum. My concern is this ruling is only going to encourage these thugs.

**

Will Air India still plan on flying to Canada after this ruling? Especially considering Canadian govt does nothing to stop the Sikh terrorists entering under the guise of political asylum?
 
jaysit
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RE: Not Guilty Verdicts In Air India 182 Bombing

Thu Mar 17, 2005 8:22 am

Khalistani movement has become nothing but immigration attornies playground who take the gullible illegal immigrants for a ride by promising asylum.

The Khalistani movement is dead in the water.
I'd love to see some hard statistics showing that any Western government is permitting Sikhs to claim refugee status based on their "Khalistani" status after 1995. I'm sure that some sleazy immigration attorneys will try anything, but what are their odds for success given that the Indian government does not discriminate against Sikhs, other than the brief disgraceful moment back in 1984?

And why should this affect AI's impending operations to YYZ?
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Jetlagged
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RE: Not Guilty Verdicts In Air India 182 Bombing

Thu Mar 17, 2005 9:06 am

So, Sikhs should be added to Muslims on the automatic terrorist suspect list?

Maybe the defendant was actually guilty. It has to be proved beyond a shadow of a doubt. Canadian justice did not fail, perhaps the prosecutors did.

However, jailing someone won't bring back the victims, nor make relatives feel better about their loss.

Sometimes in a democracy the guilty are acquitted. It's the price we pay for freedom. You can guarantee that those still suspected will be under even more scrutiny.

I can understand if you have Indian links that you would feel extremely strongly about this case. However that also means you would not in the best position to judge.
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gamps
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RE: Not Guilty Verdicts In Air India 182 Bombing

Thu Mar 17, 2005 12:34 pm

And why should this affect AI's impending operations to YYZ?

Because there are still tons of Khalistani elements in Canada who are still against Indian govt and Indian govt assets. There is a reason Indian Embassy and Consulates in Canada have one of the highest security cover given to any foreign Embassy/Consulates.

And as proved by mysterious disappearance of tapes, it is clear that Khalistani types have penetrated CSIS and other government apparatus in Canada. Imagine Air India planes handled by these Khalistanis and think what they can plant and do when they have full access to the plane.

Far fetched and doomsday scenario? Probably. But as seen from Kanishka bombing the hatred these guys have do not prevent them from killing their own people.

As far as political asylum claims by Sikhs, I just suggest you to look into any Punjabi weekly published in Canada and California. For the record India counts in top 5 countries whose citizens claim political asylum in Western Countries - some 12000 people last year.

From Reuters:

The largest group of asylum seekers in 2004 was from the Russian Federation (30,100), the majority of whom are Chechens; followed by asylum seekers from Serbia and Montenegro (22,300), many of them from Kosovo; China (19,700); Turkey (16,200) and India (11,900).

http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/news...6eb1e7ba80f68d3115e6e0b36494d6.htm
Not all 12000 are Sikhs ofcourse, but going by the advertisements by Immigration attornies promising asylum in Punjabi weeklies in North America I won't be surprised if majority of them are Punjabis.

Sikhs should be added to Muslims on the automatic terrorist suspect list?

When the prime suspect of Kanishka bombing (later killed by Indian forces) is projected as a matryr and honored on the walls of Gurudwara - and when whole community remains mute spectator for this, then there is a problem. You can see Talwinder Singh Parmar in all his glory at Fremont, California Gurudwara - only a blown up 747 is missing in the background.
 
schipholjfk
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RE: Not Guilty Verdicts In Air India 182 Bombing

Thu Mar 17, 2005 12:51 pm

How can a SINGLE judge/person decide an entire case? Doesn't the Canadian system have a system that supports a panel of judges to decide cases? How is it possible that such an important case can be decided by a SINGLE person?
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mrniji
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RE: Not Guilty Verdicts In Air India 182 Bombing

Thu Mar 17, 2005 12:59 pm

OK, let me try to give on eposition of a non-Punjabi Sikh

First, I am shocked and agree that Canadian Justice has failed in this particular case. Annoying that jurisdiction was not in India. Were they caught in Canada? Probably. Canadian laws did not allow extradiction to a country where ded penalty is possible.

Quoting Gamps (Reply 10):
I bet today here at Fremont and San Jose Gurudwaras there will be sweets distributed and verdict celebrated!

I disagree strongly. The image that all Diaspora Sikhs belong to the dead Khalistan movement is wrong, and very wrong! The image that these Sikhs are happy about what happened cannot be supported, since many of them are more loyal to India than everyone else, and many Sikhs have been killed.

Quoting Gamps (Reply 14):
Will Air India still plan on flying to Canada after this ruling?

I would not see any problem

Quoting Jaysit (Reply 15):
I'd love to see some hard statistics showing that any Western government is permitting Sikhs to claim refugee status based on
their "Khalistani" status after 1995

In Germany, 99,9 % of them are denied Asylum, since India is considered to be entirely safe. The very few receive Asylum on humanitarian grounds. Most of them are caught at the Airport and sent back within few days

Quoting Jetlagged (Reply 16):
So, Sikhs should be added to Muslims on the automatic terrorist suspect list?

Idiot, be ashamed. be aware of your acrimonious words. You completely misunderstood what was said. By the way, tell your prime minister to put Muslims off that mentioned list in your country.

Quoting Jetlagged (Reply 16):
Maybe the defendant was actually guilty. It has to be proved beyond a shadow of a doubt. Canadian justice did not fail, perhaps the prosecutors did.

Maybe, maybe, maybe:

Quoting Jetlagged (Reply 16):
However that also means you would not in the best position to judge.

Dito. You know, ha?



Sad verdict. Is there any possibility to appeal? I have no idea about Canadian jurisprudence, but it seems to be a werid system
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jaysit
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RE: Not Guilty Verdicts In Air India 182 Bombing

Thu Mar 17, 2005 1:00 pm

For the record India counts in top 5 countries whose citizens claim political asylum in Western Countries - some 12000 people last year.

12,000 people may claim asylum in the West, but very few of these are approved. Of the 1200 Indians seeking asylum in the UK for instance, only 5% (60) were granted admission as refugees. Most asylum seekers are just economic immigrants from Gujarat or Punjab who arrive in the West, then tear up their travel documents in a vain attempt at seeking asylum. While this may have worked 20 years ago, rarely does it work today.

Because there are still tons of Khalistani elements in Canada who are still against Indian govt and Indian govt assets.

Tons? Where? Your beliefs are not tantamount to proof. Besides if these supposed Khalistanis wanted to blow up an AI plane, why would they do it from Canada where they are probably under hyper surveillance post AI 182? They'd try if from a soft target like Nairobi or Bangkok or even London where they may even find one or two fellow compadres.
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avek00
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RE: Not Guilty Verdicts In Air India 182 Bombing

Thu Mar 17, 2005 1:19 pm

"And as proved by mysterious disappearance of tapes, it is clear that Khalistani types have penetrated CSIS and other government apparatus in Canada."

LOL - hardly. More likely:

1. The tapes were erased due to an accidental oversight (mishandling, believe it or not, happens from time to time when dealing with large institutions such as bureaucracies, or airlines); or

2. The information on the tapes was of such a highly sensitive nature that the Canadian Government could not allow the material to become public under any circumstances - the potential of a defeat in a criminal trial was far outweighed by grave national security concerns surrounding the protection of valuable sources and methods, or concealing the existence of clandestine operations.
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jasepl
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RE: Not Guilty Verdicts In Air India 182 Bombing

Thu Mar 17, 2005 1:25 pm

I'm sorry, but the purpose of the trial wasn't to rid the world of the Khalistani menace, or discourage asylum seekers or anything. I have to agree with Jaysit's statement that the point any reasonable system of jurisprudence is to provide "a fair trial, not a confirmed verdict." This seems to have been done.

In the Justice's own words: "Despite what appear to have been the best and most earnest of efforts by the police and the Crown, the evidence has fallen markedly short of that standard."
 
avek00
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RE: Not Guilty Verdicts In Air India 182 Bombing

Thu Mar 17, 2005 1:29 pm

"In the Justice's own words: "Despite what appear to have been the best and most earnest of efforts by the police and the Crown, the evidence has fallen markedly short of that standard."

Indeed, I gathered from the verdict that the judge *wanted* to find the men guilty, but could not do so without himself committing a breach of justice. It is worth remembering that terrorism seeks to force a society to alter its way of life - throwing out the rule of law to support a guilty finding would have amount to a victory, not a defeat, for the terrorists.
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F9Animal
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RE: Not Guilty Verdicts In Air India 182 Bombing

Thu Mar 17, 2005 1:36 pm

So this means they walk free? They are guilty!!!!! I say fly them to India, and let them walk the streets for a few hours....

This is an absolute insult, and injustice!!!!!! I am saddened for the families who have wanted justice for all these years, just to have a moron judge in a chair let them walk.

Anyone involved in terror deserves the ultimate penalty. Death.

Quoting Jetlagged (Reply 16):
I can understand if you have Indian links that you would feel extremely strongly about this case. However that also means you would not in the best position to judge.

So let me get this right... If the United States captures Osama Bin Laden, we should send him to Canada for trial. I guess the United States would not be a good enough judge to fry the trash hole?

I think India had a right to try them, and I bet they would have given them what they deserved.
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aseem
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RE: Not Guilty Verdicts In Air India 182 Bombing

Thu Mar 17, 2005 2:38 pm

Quoting Avek00 (Reply 21):
1. The tapes were erased due to an accidental oversight (mishandling, believe it or not, happens from time to time when dealing with large institutions such as bureaucracies, or airlines); or

Just follow the Canadian news website and you'll find that it was a serious issue. Those tapes were concerning Canadian Authorities tapping on the accused one year before the incident. Such things don't happen by accident. Either way it cannot be forgiven.

Quoting Avek00 (Reply 21):
2. The information on the tapes was of such a highly sensitive nature that the Canadian Government could not allow the material to become public under any circumstances - the potential of a defeat in a criminal trial was far outweighed by grave national security concerns surrounding the protection of valuable sources and methods, or concealing the existence of clandestine operations.

Could you please explain how can anything be more sensitive and crucial than the evidence itself. Unless government agencies are trying to hide something. And what can be those "grave security concerns" that far outweight course of justice. Please be advised that we talking about real world, not something out of New York Time Best Seller. Finally it was a closed door trial and there is no way that such a "sensitive" information could have leaked out.
Absolutely no words to describe the whole thing. What a waste.
rgds
Aseem
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jaysit
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RE: Not Guilty Verdicts In Air India 182 Bombing

Thu Mar 17, 2005 3:45 pm

Absolutely no words to describe the whole thing. What a waste.

Undoubtedly.

But don't blame the Canadian Courts for that; blame the various law enforcement agencies who did not do their jobs.
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YVR99
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RE: Not Guilty Verdicts In Air India 182 Bombing

Thu Mar 17, 2005 4:27 pm

Dear all,

I fear that many of the posters in this thread don't really have any idea what justice is and are confusing the law enforcement and intelligence agencies with the Justice system, i.e. the courts.
From a legal perspective, the decision is unassailable because it respects the paramount requirement that guilt be proven beyond a reasonable doubt. As a poster above noted, it really appeared that Mr. Justice Josephson "wanted" to convict the men but the burden of proof just wasn't met. While it is a tragedy that CSIS and the RCMP couldn't work together to build a better case with credible witnesses, that is absolutely no reason to assail Canadian justice. To confuse the two demonstrates only ignorance. Anyone with any legal knowledge will be aware of the adage that it is far better to acquit 9 guilty men rather than convict one innocent man.

Quoting Schipholjfk (Reply 18):
How can a SINGLE judge/person decide an entire case?

Well, that is exactly how it would happen in the US, the UK, Ireland, or many other common law countries. I suspect it might well be exactly the same in India. If new evidence becomes available or if Mr. Justice Josephson made an error of law, the case will be appealled to the BC Court of Appeal. In this scenario, the appeal will be heard by a panel of 3 or perhaps 5 Justices. If it were to be appealled to the Canadian Supreme Court it would be heard by the full court of 9 Justices...

A terrible tragedy and no doubt a disappointing indictment of CSIS and the RCMP (kind of sounds similar to the FBI not talking to the CIA pre-9/11 doesn't it?)

YVR99
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mdsh00
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RE: Not Guilty Verdicts In Air India 182 Bombing

Thu Mar 17, 2005 5:01 pm

I am not too familiar with this case as I was pretty young when all of this happened. Their acquittal does seem like a load of crap based on what I've heard.

Quoting Gamps (Reply 14):
With all due respect I suggest you visit these Gurudwaras and see for yourself how these terrorists are glorified.

Thats a load of crap. I have many Sikh friends (and a former roommate) and none of them have even Khalistani sympathies. Many Sikhs I have met seem to want to move on from that time period.
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Vimanav
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RE: Not Guilty Verdicts In Air India 182 Bombing

Thu Mar 17, 2005 6:03 pm

It is completely fallacious to type cast Sikhs (or anybody for that matter) as anti-Indian. Let's not forget that a large number of personnel in our armed forces are Sikhs. Sikhs have a proud history of serving the nation and no one can every cast any aspersion on their integrity.

That said, like in every other religion, there are enough misguided elements who will support such atrocious deeds. (I remember on the way back from school early on the day they murdered Mrs. G, our school bus was stopped by two Sikhs who offered us sweets. Now that was daft!!!). Similarly, Gamps may not be entirely wrong in stating that there could be certain elements (especially in and around places of worship) who could be lionizing such scum for their evil deeds. Without wanting to make this a flame bait, but Finsbury Park Mosque in LON is well known as a hideout for Osama sympathizers. This however does not mean that all Muslims are supporters of Osama, does it?

Again if this atrocity had been committed against the airline of a First World country and these terrorists had been holed up in a non-NATO or non-First World country, I am sure by now they'd probably have been invaded, bombed, sanctioned and made outcast in the community of nations. What a shameful irony!!!

Radical as it may sound, I'd personally like to see scum such as these neutralized through extra legal means by the Government of India.

rgds//Vimanav
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lh477
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RE: Not Guilty Verdicts In Air India 182 Bombing

Thu Mar 17, 2005 8:10 pm

A few observations on my part:
-As guilty as these men may be, their guilt it seems was not proven beyond reason of doubt as BC Justice Josephson stated.
-Canada has one of the best legal systems in the world. Our legal system is
not swayed by emotions, patriotism, etc, unlike many other western nations.
-There needs to be reform in Canada's Intelligence agencies, it seems that
is where problems arise from in the AI case.
-Since the defendants were Canadian and most of the deceased were Canadian national, Canada has every right to try to the defendants.
-In the Canadian Legal system the defendants have the right to have to choose between a Justice or Jury decide their fate.
-The Khalistan movement is dead in India and on mostly dead everywhere else.
I believe the movement has come to realization that India is not going to grant independence to Punjab no matter how much blood is spilt.
-Stating that all Sikhs are celebrating these acquittal is a quiet racist statement.

Just my 2paisas....
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AirIndia
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RE: Not Guilty Verdicts In Air India 182 Bombing

Thu Mar 17, 2005 8:13 pm

A sikhs reaction:

The verdict is indeed surprising and shocking and my heart goes out to the families of all who lost their dear ones.

What happened during operation Blue Star (1984) was unfortunate and the following assassination of Mrs. Gandhi an outrageous act. This was followed by the anti-sikh riots (I call it a massacare: as riots are when 2 groups clash). Many lost their lives and millions affected. My family lost their house and belongings and had a close shave with death as they escaped an 'enraged' mob. There has been no verdict on that. infact one of the prime accused went on to become member of parliament in the last elections. The very congress (I) that 'hated' sikhs, now have given the country the first sikh PM and Chief of Army.

As an Indian and a sikh I absolutely dissociate myself with any act of terror, be it by a sikh or any body else.

regs
Guru
 
B747-437B
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RE: Not Guilty Verdicts In Air India 182 Bombing

Thu Mar 17, 2005 8:40 pm

Quoting Gamps (Reply 14):
Will Air India still plan on flying to Canada after this ruling?

By all accounts, that proposed operation is under review, but is not expected to be affected significantly.

I'd be more concerned about Air Canada's operations to Delhi in the short term. The public resentment in India against the verdict is extremely high and there is the distinct possibility of Canadian establishments being targeted as a result.
"The A340-300 may boast a long range, but the A340 is underpowered" -- Robert Milton, CEO - Air Canada
 
lh477
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RE: Not Guilty Verdicts In Air India 182 Bombing

Thu Mar 17, 2005 9:18 pm

Sean..You can't be serious???.....Could this also mean that AC's proposed/rumored expansion into BOM would be effected as well.
Come on you gunners......!!!!!
 
mrniji
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RE: Not Guilty Verdicts In Air India 182 Bombing

Thu Mar 17, 2005 9:22 pm

Guru,

thanks for your post. I feel sorry for all this and 100 % myself take distance what was a state-planned and executed pogrom, by the cong(I) - the biggest shame is that Indian politics have not dealt with these criminal politicians. Ms. gandhi's operation bluestar was one of the foolishst moments of Indian post-colonial history, I feel ashamed of that.

There is a new film on the riots in 1984, called Amu, if anuyone is ointerested to see how these corrupt politics were involved in the death of 5000 innocent Sikhs in Delhi. I saw it when I missed you guys in Bombay.
"The earth provides enough resources for everyone's need, but not for some people's greed." (Gandhi)
 
aseem
Posts: 1971
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RE: Not Guilty Verdicts In Air India 182 Bombing

Thu Mar 17, 2005 9:55 pm

Quoting B747-437B (Reply 32):
The public resentment in India against the verdict is extremely high and there is the distinct possibility of Canadian establishments being targeted as a result.

Sorry!! I dont' think so. People like us do get swayed for a moment, but Govts are far more mature.
rgds
Aseem
ala re ala, VT-ALA ala
 
B747-437B
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RE: Not Guilty Verdicts In Air India 182 Bombing

Thu Mar 17, 2005 10:00 pm

Quoting Aseem (Reply 35):
People like us do get swayed for a moment, but Govts are far more mature

It is PEOPLE not Governments who will be expressing their displeasure with Canada, I assure you. And even institutions, however noble they may be, are only composed of people at the basic level.

I don't expect riots in the streets, but a few peaceful demonstrations outside the Canadian High Commission or the Air Canada office would not be out of the realm of possibility. Air Canada may even see some cancellations on their Delhi flights, especially with Air India starting up in the market again.

Nothing major, but it is naive to assume that there will be no fallout in India-Canada relations as a result.
"The A340-300 may boast a long range, but the A340 is underpowered" -- Robert Milton, CEO - Air Canada
 
Concorde001
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RE: Not Guilty Verdicts In Air India 182 Bombing

Thu Mar 17, 2005 11:09 pm

Quoting Gamps (Reply 17):



Quoting Gamps (Reply 17):
Because there are still tons of Khalistani elements in Canada who are still against Indian govt and Indian govt assets. There is a reason Indian Embassy and Consulates in Canada have one of the highest security cover given to any foreign Embassy/Consulates.

Don't be so stupid. The UK has the largest Sikh community outside India, and trust me when I say that the High Commission doesn't have sophisticated security. Also, the daily flights to DEL from LHR have a large majority of Sikhs onboard - that doesn't seem to bother anyone,
Quite frankly, some of the rhetoric on her is racist against Sikhs, just as most of the post 9/11 rhetoric against Muslims. What happened on that AI flight was terrible, and whoever is guilty, be it a Sikh or not, should be locked up with the key thrown away. But to say that Gurudwaras (Sikh Temples) are celebrating is absurd and offensive. No one seems to remember the massacre of thousands of Sikhs by the Indian Government.
Quite frankly, I think we should all accept the past, but move on. India is a different place from the 80s,with a healthy democracy and secularism, with a Mulsim President and a Sikh PM. Practically all the Sikhs I know in Britain, are so proud of their INDIAN heritage and love visiting the country.
And lets stop labelling all members of a community as terrorists just beacuse of the actions of a few.
Now, thats my rant over!
 
avek00
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RE: Not Guilty Verdicts In Air India 182 Bombing

Fri Mar 18, 2005 12:09 am

"Could you please explain how can anything be more sensitive and crucial than the evidence itself. Unless government agencies are trying to hide something. And what can be those "grave security concerns" that far outweight course of justice. Please be advised that we talking about real world, not something out of New York Time Best Seller. "

More sensitive than the evidence itself is the means by which it was obtained. Since any lawyer worth his/her bar card will question the origins of the taped evidence, the CSIS would have been forced to reveal exactly how it came to be in possession of the information. Here are two examples of where national security concerns could potentially trump the benefit of releasing the evidence.

1. As a condition for participating in the obtaining of the info., the Canadians (or foreigners) involved demanded that the Canadian Government never release their identities or affiliations. The Canadian Government has to honor this "trust" - if it breaches its agreement by naming names, it will absolutely discourage others from ever cooperating with the CSIS again.

2. The information was provided directly or indirectly by a foreign intelligence/security service. The foreign service would have undoubtedly required that CSIS never attribute the info. back to the other country, especially if the admission would prove damaging to the foreign country for any reason. The Canadian side, for its part, may not want to publicly acknowledge that it works (or ever worked) with the foreign country service involved.

If either of the above scenarios took place, then CSIS likely had no choice but to conceal or destroy the information, and let the chips fall wherever they may with respect to the criminal trials.

Trust me, the real world can be FAR more interesting than a NYT Best Seller when it comes to these matters.  Wink
Live life to the fullest.
 
aseem
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RE: Not Guilty Verdicts In Air India 182 Bombing

Fri Mar 18, 2005 1:02 am

Quoting Avek00 (Reply 38):

If that is the case, then whats the point of whole exercise. Why waste time and money to gather information when you can't make a case out of it. They even constructed the aircraft from the debris at some secret location. God know how that helped in investigation.
So the truth will remain confined to hush-hush world of secret services. censored 
rgds
Aseem
ala re ala, VT-ALA ala
 
Yu138086
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RE: Not Guilty Verdicts In Air India 182 Bombing

Fri Mar 18, 2005 2:04 am

So who gives retribution for the mishandling of the evidence and inaction of officials in exchange for non-admission of guilt? Indians, Canadians, or both? Some side was responsible for the erasure of the tapes and the inaction of law officials prior to the plane going down. 81% of the incriminating evidence was destroyed. This was obviously a deliberate concealment by the side that had the most to loose. Will compensation now be disbursed after a 20-yr public inquiry to the benefit of all culprits involved? Seems like the anonymous have done a marvelous job of deflecting liability and will walk away. The planners knew that any judge/ jury would find it impossible to find guilt with such flimsy evidence but the trial had to go on due to its political sensitivity - A mere puppet show as seen through the eyes of many. I don't think proper justice will ever be served in this matter. It's now up to the victims' families to seek thier own form of closure. As the Canadians have already stated "There is alot that simply CANNOT be known."
 
B747-437B
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RE: Not Guilty Verdicts In Air India 182 Bombing

Fri Mar 18, 2005 3:38 am

Quoting Vimanav (Reply 29):
I'd personally like to see scum such as these neutralized through extra legal means by the Government of India

The official statement by the Government of India seems to leave this option open.

Quote:
We share the sense of outrage among the relatives and friends of those who lost their lives in that attack that after almost two decades, the culprits have not been brought to account. At this difficult moment, we can only share the hopes of all those affected by this tragedy that one day, justice may yet be done.
"The A340-300 may boast a long range, but the A340 is underpowered" -- Robert Milton, CEO - Air Canada
 
jaysit
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RE: Not Guilty Verdicts In Air India 182 Bombing

Fri Mar 18, 2005 3:54 am

All said and done, the two defendants probably have a rather unhappy life ahead of them as they will be constantly looking over their shoulders for those seeking extra-judicial retribution.

Its not like you're going to find them eating chaat and sipping lassis in some Dhaabha in Vancouver.
Atheism is Myth Understood.
 
aseem
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RE: Not Guilty Verdicts In Air India 182 Bombing

Fri Mar 18, 2005 5:28 am

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rgds
Aseem
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gamps
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RE: Not Guilty Verdicts In Air India 182 Bombing

Fri Mar 18, 2005 6:08 am

Folks - it was not my intention to paint whole Sikh community as terrorists or as asylumseekers. I am just disgusted at these Khalistanis whom I encounter everyday. Don't say Khalistan is dead. The issue is very much alive *outside* India.

As Globe and Mail is reporting there were certainly some jubiliation at some Gurudwaras yesterday over the verdict. But at the same time other Gurudwaras are concerned that verdict will only encourage Khalistani elements.

Dream of founding Sikh state lives on

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servl...RINDIAKHAL17/TPNational/TopStories

"We love Khalistan," proudly proclaims the message on the wall at the front of a prayer room in the Ontario Khalsa Darbar, a Sikh temple in Mississauga. The temple attracts about 15,000 people each week, up to 80,000 on religious holidays.

"Sikh Homeland Khalistan," echoes a sign hanging prominently on the walls of another prayer room in the temple.

 
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yyz717
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RE: Not Guilty Verdicts In Air India 182 Bombing

Fri Mar 18, 2005 7:45 am

I was as shocked as everyone that these dudes were acquitted. As someone said above, the "fault" is not with the Canadian legal system, it was simply that the burden of proof was not complete enough.

Quoting B747-437B (Reply 36):
I don't expect riots in the streets, but a few peaceful demonstrations outside the Canadian High Commission or the Air Canada office would not be out of the realm of possibility.....Nothing major, but it is naive to assume that there will be no fallout in India-Canada relations as a result.

India should be pressuring Canada to deal with Sikh extremism. There are clearly some Sikh extremists in Canada.

Quoting Jaysit (Reply 42):
All said and done, the two defendants probably have a rather unhappy life ahead of them as they will be constantly looking over their shoulders for those seeking extra-judicial retribution.

No, they're safe. The Hindu community in Canada is very peaceful with no history of extremism or violence.

Quoting Gamps (Reply 44):
Don't say Khalistan is dead. The issue is very much alive *outside* India.

I see the odd Khalistan bumper sticker. The dream is still alive.

My concern now is that this acquittal may embolden Silk extremists to start attacks again against Indian targets, perhaps including Air-India.
I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
B747-437B
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RE: Not Guilty Verdicts In Air India 182 Bombing

Fri Mar 18, 2005 8:33 am

Quoting Yyz717 (Reply 45):
I was as shocked as everyone that these dudes were acquitted

Neil, I know you love yanking the chains of the Indians on this board (and you do it so well too!!!), but on this thread please accept my sincere thanks for participating seriously.
"The A340-300 may boast a long range, but the A340 is underpowered" -- Robert Milton, CEO - Air Canada
 
EnviroTO
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RE: Not Guilty Verdicts In Air India 182 Bombing

Fri Mar 18, 2005 8:39 am

Memories of the OJ Simpson trial. As much as we feel we know the people are guilty it doesn't matter if you can't prove it.

Hopefully there will be an inquiry into why CSIS, the RCMP, and Airport Security failed so badly and why a non-guilty veridict takes 20 years. We need to be certain that it doesn't happen again and that means more than airport security... it means police procedures and tools need to be examined.
 
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AirIndia
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RE: Not Guilty Verdicts In Air India 182 Bombing

Fri Mar 18, 2005 11:52 am

Quoting Yyz717 (Reply 45):
My concern now is that this acquittal may embolden Silk extremists to start attacks again against Indian targets, perhaps including Air-India.

I dont see any one of these 'extremists' garner support from the sikh community. What happened in the 80s was riding on the KLF wave then initiated by Bindrewala, but all that has gone.

What you see is just the last wag of a dying dog. nothing more.

Quoting Gamps (Reply 44):
Quoting Gamps (Reply 44):
Don't say Khalistan is dead. The issue is very much alive *outside* India

only an unfulfilled dream of a few extremists. I suggest some of you to go watch the movie "Machhis'. It shows how these extremists are born.
 
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yyz717
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RE: Not Guilty Verdicts In Air India 182 Bombing

Fri Mar 18, 2005 12:24 pm

Quoting B747-437B (Reply 46):
Neil, I know you love yanking the chains of the Indians on this board (and you do it so well too!!!), but on this thread please accept my sincere thanks for participating seriously.

This thread (more than most) is a time for seriousness, not sarcasm or chain yanking, whatever that is.  Wink

Seriously though, India should advise Canada when Sikh extremists are emigrating to Canada so we can keep an eye on them (or better, deny them entry). We can't identify an extremist just from a turban.
I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.

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