backfire
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Southern Winds Bankrupt

Thu Mar 17, 2005 7:25 am

I hear on the wire that Southern Winds has gone t!ts-up.

Comments?
 
IBERIA747
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RE: Southern Winds Bankrupt

Thu Mar 17, 2005 7:31 am

This is really sad if it's true.
¡¡VIVA ESPAÑA!!
 
LVZXV
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RE: Southern Winds Bankrupt

Thu Mar 17, 2005 8:31 am

Keep me posted! I'm meant to fly on them next Friday from Madrid to Buenos Aires. Haven't LAN taken over their operations for 90 days?

Saludos,

ZXV

Edit: Unconfirmed reports suggest their 767 was repossessed last weekend by Euroatlantic Airways. Ominous...

[Edited 2005-03-17 00:35:03]
How do you say "12 months" in Estonian?
 
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alberchico
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RE: Southern Winds Bankrupt

Thu Mar 17, 2005 2:31 pm

they just got a 747 !!!How could they go up??? heres some of their fleet

http://www.telemacus.it/sw/SWHP.jpg







short summary of every jewish holiday: they tried to kill us ,we won , lets eat !
 
United Airline
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RE: Southern Winds Bankrupt

Thu Mar 17, 2005 2:38 pm

Do they have any B 747s?????
 
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alberchico
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RE: Southern Winds Bankrupt

Thu Mar 17, 2005 2:45 pm

yes they got one and were planning to acquire another. Check the a.net database and you'll see
short summary of every jewish holiday: they tried to kill us ,we won , lets eat !
 
Chiguire
Posts: 1848
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RE: Southern Winds Bankrupt

Thu Mar 17, 2005 5:27 pm

Seems to be true:

http://news.google.com.ar/news?hl=es...n+winds%22&btnG=Buscar+en+Noticias

This sound like Chapter 11 in the US. The flights seem to operate (still).
Very, very sad !
 
EZEIZA
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RE: Southern Winds Bankrupt

Thu Mar 17, 2005 7:53 pm

Indeed, very very sad. Just when A4 was on their biggest expansion the drug scandal is destroying them. Here is the link in La Nacion (in Spanish)

http://buscador.lanacion.com.ar/Nota.asp?nota_id=688096&high=southern

ZXV : One point of the report claims that the government had put pressure on the airline to stop operating the EZE / SAEZ), Argentina">EZE-MAD / LEMD), Spain">MAD route but no measures have been taken so far. You should be ok flying in but you should check options just in case (as you mentioned, LAN could be a possibility), especially for your return (cuanto te quedas aca?)

Again, it's really sad that yet another Argentine airline falls, and the list goes on and on. What's really sad about A4 is that this fall was unexpected by everyone just a few weeks ago (there were several threads on a.net on A4's expansion that are still recent!).  saludos

 Sad
[Edited 2005-03-17 11:54:27]

[Edited 2005-03-17 11:55:06]

[Edited 2005-03-17 11:56:39]
Carp aunque ganes o pierdas ...
 
LVZXV
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RE: Southern Winds Bankrupt

Thu Mar 17, 2005 10:09 pm

A4 has a single B747-267B (LV-AZF, ex-G-VRUM):


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © José Ramón Valero - Iberian Spotters
View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Juan Pablo Marini



While the second Jumbo is in theory ready for delivery, the final installment wasn't made by the architect of this project, Argentine tycoon Martín Varsávsky, on supposedly on account of the drugs scandal. If so, then this Jumbo (ex-G-CCMA & -VCAT), has probably reached the end of the line, as only desperate airlines would show an interest:


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © A J Best



With regards to A4 themselves, yesterday they cancelled about 1/3 of their domestic flights, but the EZE-MAD-EZE service continued unaffected with the 747, although like you said EZEIZA, The Government is trying to "do something about this".

Alberchico:

The 767s you show were those operated in conjunction with Air Atlanta Icelandic (TF-ARA, ARB) from September 2002 until February 2004, when high leasing costs saw them cross the Andes to join LAN, as CC-CML and CC-CEN respectively. The "other" 767 was LV-AIX, which served A4 from February 2004 until just a few days ago, when it too was repossessed by its lessor, and is now stored in SCL. Time will tell if A4 can pay the necessary lease for the 767 or if it too will join LAN. No doubt LAN are eagerly eyeing it up...

Finally, while I'm inclined to condemn A4 for the shipment of drugs, I also see it as a sign of desperation. No matter how much money Varsávsky was injecting for the Jumbos, the airline barely had its head above water. With AR supported by Spanish Marsans, A4 demonstrated graphically, and in my mind, how little has changed in the Argentine aviation sector for strictly Argentine carriers since the crisis of 3 years ago. You can't be earning in Argentine Pesos and covering operational, leasing and mainteance costs in US Dollars.

Saludos,

ZXV
How do you say "12 months" in Estonian?
 
7LBAC111
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RE: Southern Winds Bankrupt

Thu Mar 17, 2005 11:03 pm

I blame AIrways magazine. They did a big feature on Jetmagic, and they went belly up, and this month they do Southern Winds and they've gone too.

7LBAC111
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cornish
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RE: Southern Winds Bankrupt

Thu Mar 17, 2005 11:08 pm

Quoting 7LBAC111 (Reply 9):
I blame AIrways magazine. They did a big feature on Jetmagic, and they went belly up, and this month they do Southern Winds and they've gone too.

Always guaranteed to happen !! I think Airliner World did a big feature on Duo which went on sale the month they went belly up too and there's been plenty of others too.
Just when I thought I could see light at the end of the tunnel, it was some B*****d with a torch bringing me more work
 
flybeq400
Posts: 165
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RE: Southern Winds Bankrupt

Thu Mar 17, 2005 11:13 pm

Any news on possible takeover bid by LAN Chile? I know this rumour was doing the rounds last week but no movement yet? Maybe the bankruptcy protection is to forestall any takeover attempt?
 
na
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RE: Southern Winds Bankrupt

Thu Mar 17, 2005 11:47 pm

Thats sad. I was happy a new carrier was introducing 747 Classics again.
 
Derico
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RE: Southern Winds Bankrupt

Thu Mar 17, 2005 11:58 pm

Could someone who lives near Aeroparque please tell those a$$holes who are blocking the airport that they trully got what thet deserved? Yes, they indeed 'brought' LAN upon themselves, thanks to their own co-workers and their archetypical 'viveza', who decided they'd make some good money on the side. Those aeronautic workers should be focusing their efforts on hunting down their drug dealing co-workers, but as usual they make the flying passenger pay.

If I was in BA, I swear I would go to AEP and hold a sign telling them as much. And yes, you would probably see me on the news...

I'm just so sick and tired of 'blame everyone but yourself' attitudes...
My internet was not shut down, the internet has shut me down
 
LVZXV
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RE: Southern Winds Bankrupt

Fri Mar 18, 2005 1:29 am

Hola Derico:

I totally agree with what you say. Unfortunately, Latin America is such that everyone devises different "golden parachute" schemes for when the going gets tough, i.e making money on the side. Few of these schemes are legal.

Well low and behold Southern Winds HAVE cancelled my flight to EZE on Good Friday, offering me either the 23rd or Easter Sunday instead. If I give them the necessary details, can they pay for a new British Airways ticket for LHR-MAD, or are they not obliged to?

How many more Argentine businesses have to fold before they start to realise that la viveza criolla leads nowhere. Just because it helped Argentina clinch the '86 World Cup doesn't mean this crooked philosophy can be successfully applied to all Argentine business models, if any for that matter.

Saludos,

ZXV
How do you say "12 months" in Estonian?
 
tnsaf
Posts: 122
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RE: Southern Winds Bankrupt

Fri Mar 18, 2005 1:35 am

Having had the distinct displeasure of dealing with this airline in a business relationship, I hope they expire quickly. The words dishonest and corrupt do not do them justice.  censored 
700 hours and counting...
 
Box37
Posts: 55
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RE: Southern Winds Bankrupt

Fri Mar 18, 2005 5:16 am

LVZXV:

Sorry to hear your flight is cancelled, If I were you, I would take the change because I doubt they will endorse your ticket and if they do check if the other airline will honor it

Do a Google on John De Lorean and you will find similarities, desperate people do desperate things.

Their business plan was faulty from the beginning with the CRJs and it has been downhill ever since.

The high price of oil and high maintenance cost of the 732 drained all their income once the subsidy disappear.

I think it is more arrogance than anything else, not knowing where you stand and lacking the discipline and humility to recognize that sometimes you have to pull back and consolidate before you start thinking big. It is easy to think big but you have to have the money to back it up, but if you are broke it is pure stupidity.
 
stirling
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RE: Southern Winds Bankrupt

Fri Mar 18, 2005 6:12 am

Quoting LVZXV (Reply 8):
With regards to A4 themselves, yesterday they cancelled about 1/3 of their domestic flights, but the EZE-MAD-EZE service continued unaffected with the 747

Sunday's flight MAD-EZE was cancelled....I remember seeing the 747 parked at a remote stand at Barajas.
I assumed it was out because of MX.
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SFOMEX
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RE: Southern Winds Bankrupt

Fri Mar 18, 2005 6:29 am

I remember their plans to get MD-11s and start new routes, among them EZE-MEX. If I correctly recall, they had the rights for months until Aerolineas Argentinas got them back. In any case, it's sad to see them going belly up.
The only thing worst than the GOP is the Democratic Party, think about it!
 
LVZXV
Posts: 1729
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RE: Southern Winds Bankrupt

Fri Mar 18, 2005 8:04 am

Box37:

Inconvenient though it was, at least they had the decency to call me and reserve the same seats. They did say--although I'm not exactly sure how-- that they would fully reimburse me if their flight on the 23rd is cancelled, likewise my return in April. On the plus side, it means I get to spend my birthday (the 24th) in Buenos Aires! Big grin

With regards to their business model, you might be right, but remember that the '90s were very different in Argentina. A lot of things seemed possible. LAPA finally blossomed after 15 years. Dinar came about. And in the regional market, LAER and TAN Neuquén did well. Where Maggio went wrong, I'm not quite sure, but at the time operating 50-seat aircraft out of Argentina's second biggest city didn't seem like a bad idea, not least since for years and years, AR's B732s had not been making money on domestic routes. To the day, Argentina would be better-off with more regional jets/turboprops, and Argentine aviation will not grow unless new airlines can succeed in breaking the stranglehold of Buenos Aires.

Come 2002, there was no way that A4 could afford the least rates of their CRJ-200s and Dash 8s--the former costing approximately USD 140,000 a month. Where I think they really went wrong was not so much in the acquisition of the 3 ex-Ladeco B732s, but in inaugurating their international services to MAD and MIA when they did. Had the CAT II downgrade not occurred, and had A4 been able to operate the aircraft themselves instead of through Air Atlanta, the story might have been slightly different, but in addition to the 767 leasing costs, A4 were having to pay the Icelandic crew's Dollarised salaries. It took them over a year to realise they simply couldn't keep this up.

So yes, they lacked the discipline to scale back, and I'm sure had they focused on routes where they could earn in US Dollars like EZE-SCL or EZE-GRU, A4 could have ended-up with a better-looking balance sheet. As it was, in September 2003, just before the LAFSA project came to the "rescue", A4 was already bankrupt. At present, they have a crippling debt of USD 50 million.

In the long run, I don't see LAN coming to the rescue. As it is, LAN Argentina are being harrassed to take on board the 850 LAFSA employees and the 200 ex-Aerovip. If UX don't lend a helping hand, I honestly don't see A4 surviving.

Stirling:

It's possible that last Sunday's MAD-EZE flight was cancelled for mx reasons, as the Jumbo required minor repairs on its undercarriage.

It is sad to see A4 go belly up, but I'd stop short of saying surprising. Does anyone think WK (American Falcon) will follow suit?

Saludos,

ZXV
How do you say "12 months" in Estonian?
 
Arcano
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RE: Southern Winds Bankrupt

Fri Mar 18, 2005 12:10 pm

As LAN keeps taken former 767s, would that be a sign of them getting their only 742? I don't think it will be the perfect aircraft for LAN, bus as with the 732s, at given cheap costs... who knows.

I still think LAN is not equiped enough with long range fleet for all Lan Chile, Lan Peru, Lan Ecuador and Lan Argentina, specially considering EZE-MAD and EZE-MIA.

ZXV, any news about your flight? IB has launched an special fare of 950 SCL-MAD, so I'm thinking in flying to Spain again... we'll see

Regards )( Arcano
in order: 721,146,732,763,722,343,733,320,772,319,752,321,88,83,744,332,100,738, 333, 318, 77W, 78, 773, 380, 73G, 788, 789, 346
 
WiLdmanVzla
Posts: 590
Joined: Wed Sep 20, 2000 12:17 pm

RE: Southern Winds Bankrupt

Fri Mar 18, 2005 12:19 pm

I'm really sorry about that news... last sept. I went from AEP to Bariloche with A4 & the inflight service (and the punctuality also) was great.

Next sunday I'll travel to EZE with AR... I hope everything will be as cool as usual (los argentinos saben lo de los piqueteros ¿no?).

*******
 
bennett123
Posts: 7527
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RE: Southern Winds Bankrupt

Sat Mar 19, 2005 5:48 am

With G-CCMA sitting at Filton on 2rd March, hopefully they will sort this out before MK part it out.
 
Marambio
Posts: 1145
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RE: Southern Winds Bankrupt

Sat Mar 19, 2005 6:03 am

Gentlemen, SOUTHERN WINDS HAS NOT ENTERED BANKRUPTCY.

Maggio brother's airline started what in Argentina we call a "Concurso preventivo de acreedores". Its equivalent in the USA is Chapter 13. A4 asked a Judge for some time in order to re-negociate its debt with the creditors.

This news appeared two days ago in Clarín and yesterday in La Nación, Argentina's two leading newspapers:

http://old.clarin.com/diario/2005/03/16/um/m-939882.htm
http://www.lanacion.com.ar/archivo/n....asp?nota_id=688096&origen=archivo

Both links are only in Spanish.

Regarding the 767-300, it is currently sitting at the LAN Maintenance Center in SCL / SCEL), Chile">SCL. There are rumours saying A4 returned the aircraft to its lessor GECAS - and NOT to Euroatlantic, as a member has said. Another rumour states A4 would keep the 763 and return its 742, and cancel the next 742s.

Please, gentlemen, pay close attention to everything you read. Chapter 13 is not the same than Chapter 7, and I believe that should they ever go bust, the news would appear on every local paper's front page - and not in page 16, as it happened yesterday in La Nación.

Saludos,
Marambio

Edit- Typo

[Edited 2005-03-18 22:04:33]
Aerolíneas Argentinas - La Argentina que levanta vuelo
 
PDPsol
Posts: 1111
Joined: Fri Feb 20, 2004 5:09 am

RE: Southern Winds Bankrupt

Sat Mar 19, 2005 8:26 am

Quoting Marambio (Reply 23):
Gentlemen, SOUTHERN WINDS HAS NOT ENTERED BANKRUPTCY.

Maggio brother's airline started what in Argentina we call a "Concurso preventivo de acreedores". Its equivalent in the USA is Chapter 13. A4 asked a Judge for some time in order to re-negociate its debt with the creditors.

Marambio, you are equating bankruptcy with liquidation. Southern Winds has indeed filed for Argentine bankruptcy protection, concurso, referred here in the United States as Chapter 11 or 13 of the US Federal Bankruptcy code.

When a company has filed for Ch. 11 or 13, we refer to that company as being "in bankruptcy". United [UA] and US Airways [US] are both operating in bankruptcy, under Chapter 11 protection. However, they are still operating and have obviously not been liquidated.
 
LVZXV
Posts: 1729
Joined: Thu Mar 04, 2004 10:03 am

RE: Southern Winds Bankrupt

Sat Mar 19, 2005 10:54 am

Arcano:

CANCELADO!!!  mad 

Marambio:

In A4's case, whether they are in Chapter 7, 11 or 13, there really is little difference. Next week, they have scaled down to just 2 services to MAD:

TUE 22 MAR A4 6424 EZE-MAD 22:15/14:15 (+1) B747
WED 23 MAR A4 6425 MAD-EZE 22:00/06:45 (+1) B747

SAT 26 MAR A4 6422 EZE-MAD 14:00/06:00 (+1) B747
SUN 27 MAR A4 6427 MAD-EZE 11:00/18:45 B747


I've been on the phone to them for the last two days, after they cancelled my flight on the 25th and offered me either the 23rd or the 27th. For no extra fee, they have put me on the former, but I am still breathing down their necks to get me a new LHR-MAD ticket, as they effectively lost the one I had with BA. Non-refundable though it may have been, I'm not paying for a new one. Southern Winds made their bed, Southern Winds can sleep in it!

You can argue about the correct technical terms to describe A4's predicament as long as you like, but even if you check their domestic flight schedules, I can assure you that operations are winding down and I wouldn't be surprised if they folded next month. ONLY a miracle can save them (I'm not saying this is impossible, just somewhat unlikely). A4's reputation has gone to hell, and while reservations on the EZE-MAD-EZE sector remained fairly unaffected initially in the wake of the drugs scandal, people are going to start losing their patience, as I have, once they start shuffling and cancelling flights.

Saludos a todos,

ZXV
How do you say "12 months" in Estonian?
 
Leskova
Posts: 5547
Joined: Wed Oct 08, 2003 3:39 pm

RE: Southern Winds Bankrupt

Sat Mar 19, 2005 4:04 pm

Quoting LVZXV (Reply 25):
but I am still breathing down their necks to get me a new LHR-MAD ticket

I doubt you'll be getting anywhere with that - even airlines not operating under any type of bankrupcy protection won't pay for separate tickets if they've changed their schedule (for example because of maintenance issues, or because of strikes).

If you had the LHR-MAD flight on the same ticket as the MAD-EZE flight then, yes, they'd be resposible for changing it - but with it being a separate document, you're simply out of luck... unless they're really desparate to keep you on board...

Good luck in any case!

Regards,
Frank
Smile - it confuses people!
 
European
Posts: 1495
Joined: Wed Sep 29, 2004 5:01 am

RE: Southern Winds Bankrupt

Sat Mar 19, 2005 4:16 pm

Hey

What Will happen to Ex- G-CCMA?? And all the others.

European
Jimmi
Come on Ryanair! Come on BOH! BASE BASE BASE! Flying high in the skies...........
 
LVZXV
Posts: 1729
Joined: Thu Mar 04, 2004 10:03 am

RE: Southern Winds Bankrupt

Sat Mar 19, 2005 11:33 pm

Leskova:

I'm giving them a hard time because this wasn't a simple maintenance problem or rescheduling of flights. I bought my ticket long before the cocaine crisis, and honestly, either they can give me a full refund (which they offered if they cancel the flight on the 23rd), or a new LHR-MAD ticket (which they said they'd look into), even if it's with BMI instead (they are actually the cheapest option at the moment).

I must say though, for all the turbulence they are passing through, A4's customer service remain as courteous and helpful as ever. You're right Leskova in that most airline's don't usually deal with other airline's tickets, but if A4 really put their money with their mouth is and see to new tickets, hats-off to them. A4's customer service appear to have understood the inconvenience caused and the absurdity of the situation. Outside of Argentina, it's all up to your travel insurance.

European:

As Marambio said, you'll know in perhaps 10 days time whether G-CCMA will head south or face parting-out. All I can say is don't get your hopes up.

Saludos,

ZXV
How do you say "12 months" in Estonian?

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