Argentina
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China Southern Asking For Routes To Argentina

Sun Mar 20, 2005 3:59 pm

According to Argentinian newspapers today, China Southern executives are in Argentina discussing with local authorities the bilateral agreement between Argentina and China. The executives expressed the interest of China Southern to fly to Argentina soon.

No data regarding dates, routes and aircraft.

Saludos desde Buenos Aires
 
EddieDude
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RE: China Southern Asking For Routes To Argentina

Sun Mar 20, 2005 4:07 pm

Wow, interesting news. I wonder where they would stop en route if this ever happens. It will be interesting to read in Monday's papers if there are more concrete news or announcements.
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ktachiya
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RE: China Southern Asking For Routes To Argentina

Sun Mar 20, 2005 5:33 pm

Yes, I was wondering the same thing as EddieDude.

If they get the 5th freedom rights, then they should look at some destination with a large Chinese population (living there) shouldn't they? I don't know if they are thinking about the states but I know that there are many travelers who avoid it because it means stopping over in the states. (Some security issue discussed in Japan often).

I wonder if they can stop in YYZ?
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6thfreedom
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RE: China Southern Asking For Routes To Argentina

Sun Mar 20, 2005 5:57 pm

don't forget us down under.

I think you will find that operating Guangzhou-BA via Sydney, Auckland or Melbourne is faster than via North America.

And if my memory serves me correct, AR and CZ could interline quite easily over SYD right now.

CZ arrives SYD 09.30, departs 10.50am
AR arrives around 7.30 and departs around 10.30am

VERY EASY!

 
ktachiya
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RE: China Southern Asking For Routes To Argentina

Sun Mar 20, 2005 7:42 pm

Yes, on the other hand, SYD or BNE can be good places to stop-over.

I forgot the site of the Great Circle Mapper so I can't do that search right now.... But Australia is so far from anywhere. I know that the earth is round and everything but HKG-SYD takes just about the same time as KIX-SYD which just suprised me when I flew on these routes a few years ago.
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keno
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RE: China Southern Asking For Routes To Argentina

Sun Mar 20, 2005 7:57 pm

From Great Circle Mapper (all in nautical miles) :-

can-jnb-eze 10148
can-syd-eze 10419
can-akl-eze 10563
can-mad-eze 11045
can-lhr-eze 11136
can-jfk-eze 11543
can-yyz-eze 11563
can-lax-eze 11598
can-yvr-eze 11612

Seems like the shortest stopover point is JNB followed by SYD. Going via Europe wouldn't be a bad idea either.

For comparison, flying MH on CAN-KUL-JNB-CPT-EZE is 10410 nm, which is almost exactly as CAN-SYD-EZE.

CZ 365
dep CAN 1900
arr KUL 2240

or

MH 377
dep CAN 1500
arr KUL 1900

< connecting to >

MH 201
dep KUL 0105 +1
arr EZE 1450 +1

Operates Sat & Tue

[Edited 2005-03-20 12:04:10]
 
Yu138086
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RE: China Southern Asking For Routes To Argentina

Sun Mar 20, 2005 11:36 pm

Seems like the recent visit of the Chinese govnt. delegation is opening up doors in the right places. South America definately needs a direct gateway to Asia. It about time. Hopefully it materializes.
 
AR1300
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RE: China Southern Asking For Routes To Argentina

Mon Mar 21, 2005 3:21 am

Just read that in Clarin.Marsans also wants to sell AR cause the gov doesn't help or something like that.


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anxebla
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RE: China Southern Asking For Routes To Argentina

Mon Mar 21, 2005 5:11 am

AR was thinking fly China via MAD. But like KEno says, it seems via JNB --or CPT-- is shorter than any other way.

AR1300: I don't trust neither Marsans nor G.Pascual. Let's wait and see what happen on the AR subject ...because it's a delicate subject
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PPVRA
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RE: China Southern Asking For Routes To Argentina

Mon Mar 21, 2005 5:26 am

A stop in Canada makes sense to me. Maybe Europe.

Quoting Yu138086 (Reply 6):
South America definately needs a direct gateway to Asia. It about time. Hopefully it materializes.

RG flies GRU-LAX-NRT 4X weekly (RG flight to PEK might beggin this July via MUC) and JAL flies NGO-NRT-JFK-GRU 3X weekly.

MH also flies to EZE 2X weekly.

Cheers,

PPVRA
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ConcordeBoy
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RE: China Southern Asking For Routes To Argentina

Mon Mar 21, 2005 6:21 am

CZ is an ETOPS-only airline, ergo operating via the S.Pacific is out for them, at the moment.
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6thfreedom
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RE: China Southern Asking For Routes To Argentina

Mon Mar 21, 2005 7:35 am

The other point we all need to consider is that an airlines route is most often dictated by uplift rights at the intermediate point, potential 6th freedom traffic, as well as further bilateral considerations. The shortest route is not necessarily the best option, ie saving 1.5-2 hours in flight time is no big deal when looking at the bigger picture.

KEno - good point re: CZ/MH, especially given there move towards SkyTeam. This option would also give CZ an entry to Africa, as well as South AMERICA.
 
Airbus Lover
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RE: China Southern Asking For Routes To Argentina

Mon Mar 21, 2005 7:57 am

Going via YVR wouldn't be a bad idea because they already have plans to fly to YVR nonstop from CAN and YVR-EZE, or any Latin America destination for that matter, is a rather sizeable market that has yet been exploited. They will have market catchment beyond EZE not only into YVR, but North America, and I think most importantly to Asia. All these subject to 5th freedom rights which IMHO will definitely be a success if properly done.
 
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yyz717
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RE: China Southern Asking For Routes To Argentina

Mon Mar 21, 2005 9:39 am

I'm surprised there is a market need for China-Argentina service. Does Argentina have a Chinese communiuty (I didn't think so). What is the business basis for this proposed route?
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AR1300
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RE: China Southern Asking For Routes To Argentina

Mon Mar 21, 2005 9:52 am

Quoting Yyz717 (Reply 13):
I'm surprised there is a market need for China-Argentina service. Does Argentina have a Chinese communiuty (I didn't think so). What is the business basis for this proposed route?

you gotta be kidding.We have more chinese here than in china itself....plus all this chinese bussines that has been going around for a while.We are in the China Boom.Everything is ''China''.They buy soy beans n' stuff from us. We are the first in the world in that.Just like in fútbol, simply the best....regardless what anybody else says... Wink

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keno
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RE: China Southern Asking For Routes To Argentina

Mon Mar 21, 2005 10:00 am

Quoting AR1300 (Reply 14):
We have more chinese here than in china itself

What???  Wink
 
ahlfors
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RE: China Southern Asking For Routes To Argentina

Mon Mar 21, 2005 10:08 am

Quoting KEno (Reply 15):
.We have more chinese here than in china itself

Wow... more than a billion chinese in argentina... who would have thunk?
 
AR1300
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RE: China Southern Asking For Routes To Argentina

Mon Mar 21, 2005 10:35 am

figuratively....


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Yu138086
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RE: China Southern Asking For Routes To Argentina

Mon Mar 21, 2005 10:41 am

China has recently decided to invest heavily in Argentina's deteriorating infrastrucure. With the large Chinese demand for Southern Cone agriculture, any direct air link between the countries can only help. These are the main reasons for wanting to open such routes. On the grand sceme of things the trade flow wont be as large as between North America or Europe per se but it will help Argentina nonetheless.
 
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yyz717
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RE: China Southern Asking For Routes To Argentina

Mon Mar 21, 2005 10:50 am

Thanks for the explanation Yu138086. I also presume that Argentina may become a tourist destination for Chinese once links open.
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6thfreedom
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RE: China Southern Asking For Routes To Argentina

Mon Mar 21, 2005 10:51 am

http://www.library.ohiou.edu/subjects/shao/databases_popdis.htm

according to this, there are only 30,000 chinese in argentina.
when i was in peru recently i saw an air china B744 at Lima airport.
I would think that a PVG-LIM service would commence prior to CAN-EZE...

FYI - the breakdown for chinese in the america's is....

Antilles (Dutch) 700
Argentina 30,000
Aruba (Dutch) 600
Bahamas (Dutch) 200
Barbados 50
Belize 1,500
Bolivia 12,000
Brazil 100,000
Canada 910,000
Chile 5,000
Colombia 7,000
Costa Rica 63,000
Cuba 6,000
Curacao (Dutch) 600
Dominican Republic 15,000
Ecuador 20,000
El Salvador 1,500
Guatemala 14,000
Guiana (France) 600
Guyana 20,000
Haiti 200
Honduras 1,500
Jamaica 25,000
Mexico 30,000
Nicaragua 3,000
Panama 150,000
Paraguay 10,000
Peru 60,000
Suriname 13,000
Trinidad and Tobago 20,000
Venezuela 50,000
United States 2,000,000
Uruguay 300
 
Marambio
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RE: China Southern Asking For Routes To Argentina

Mon Mar 21, 2005 11:07 am

Argentina certainly has a respectable Chinese community, but this one does not really deserve a direct aircraft service to China.

The Chinese community in Argentina owns small shops and supermarkets, and belong to the lower middle class, i.e. they mainly travel to see their relatives back home. Also the majority of them come from Taiwan.

There are no big Chinese investments in Argentina besides YCF (Yacimientos Carboníferos Fiscales), the former state-owned, coal-extracting company based at the lost town of Río Turbio, Santa Cruz, in deep Patagonia.

Argentina in general and Buenos Aires in particular enjoy acceptable connections to the Far East through Kuala Lumpur with Malaysia Airlines, and to Japan with Varig via Sao Paulo. Our very own Aerolíneas Argentinas flies to Australia and New Zealand, from where one can catch good flights to Asia.

This said, I strongly believe that should this CZ flight ever materialize, it would have lots to do with the current relationships between both countries. Argentina is one of the world's biggest soja producers, and China desperately needs to buy that soja to feed its one billion citizens' stomachs.

Both Aerolíneas Argentinas and state-owned Líneas Aéreas del Estado (Lade) got rights for flying to Beijing and Shanghai, the latter being only allowed to transport freight on its 707s. There have been rumours about Air Plus Comet starting operations in China, and codesharing with AR on that flight. Let's remember both Air Plus Comet and Aerolíneas are (so far) owned by the Spanish group Marsans.

Flying via Johannesburg wouldn't make any sense. The market is very small and Malaysia already has the rights from both Jo'burg and Cape Town to Buenos Aires. Also South African Airways flies to Sao Paulo with its state-of-the-art A340-600, and passengers can fly to from Guarulhos to Buenos Aires with codeshare partner Varig.

The European route might be interesting, should they pick an unserved city from both countries. Milan for instance comes to my mind, especially with the very srong ties that link Argentina and Italy. Alitalia flies MXP-EZE four times weekly, which means they could try their luck on the three other vacant days.

I remain very skeptical about Australia. Like South Africa, the market is very well served by Aerolíneas from Buenos Aires and by LAN from Santiago de Chile. Both airlines offer a plethora of connections from their hubs, mainly regional but also to the USA and Europe.

Nonetheless, since the whole idea of flying from China to Argentina is completely crazy, no route for this flight would surprise me.

Saludos,
Marambio

[Edited 2005-03-21 03:08:43]
Aerolíneas Argentinas - La Argentina que levanta vuelo
 
ktachiya
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RE: China Southern Asking For Routes To Argentina

Mon Mar 21, 2005 11:10 am

Quoting ConcordeBoy (Reply 10):
CZ is an ETOPS-only airline, ergo operating via the S.Pacific is out for them, at the moment

Then I think this is very likely

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 9):
A stop in Canada makes sense to me

Canada has a large Chinese populations like in YYZ. If they do this, they can compete with AC taking away its monopoly I guess.


 dollarsign 

Then prices on this route by AC will go down; I guess?
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incitatus
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RE: China Southern Asking For Routes To Argentina

Mon Mar 21, 2005 11:23 am

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 9):
RG flies GRU-LAX-NRT 4X weekly (RG flight to PEK might beggin this July via MUC) and JAL flies NGO-NRT-JFK-GRU 3X weekly.

With the economy growing in Brazil, Varig is making a big mistake by keeping the frequency to Japan at less than daily.
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PPVRA
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RE: China Southern Asking For Routes To Argentina

Mon Mar 21, 2005 12:21 pm

Quoting Incitatus (Reply 23):
With the economy growing in Brazil, Varig is making a big mistake by keeping the frequency to Japan at less than daily.

Agree 100%.

Also, KE is currently looking for a someone to represent them in S. Paulo, so hopefully they will resume operations down here soon. Or better yet, we could fly there, but you know how that goes with the current situation...


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PPVRA
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CXoneworld
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RE: China Southern Asking For Routes To Argentina

Mon Mar 21, 2005 7:53 pm

Yeah! This could be ONE exciting development for CZ.

However, I am also under the impression that most bilateral rights awarded to Chinese carriers ended up under or not utilised at all. I'll believe in the EZE service when I see one in real... Just to play the devil's advocate  devil !!
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Arcano
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RE: China Southern Asking For Routes To Argentina

Tue Mar 22, 2005 2:48 am

Quoting Yu138086 (Reply 18):
China has recently decided to invest heavily in Argentina's deteriorating infrastrucure

Actually I think it's gonna be Brazil the one taking the most of Chinese money (as well as Spanish).

Although it would be great to link the Southern Cone to China, I think Brazil is a much more attractive market for Chinese airlines.

It doesn't make much sence to me yet, but who knows...

Regards )( Arcano
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Marambio
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RE: China Southern Asking For Routes To Argentina

Tue Mar 22, 2005 2:56 am

Quoting AR1300 (Reply 24):
De dónde sacaste eso?Los ''chinos'' son la mayoria de China, como por el Once,y despues de Corea, como en Flores,donde esta ''Coreatown''.

The Chinese from Belgrano, where there's our small Chinatown, come from Taiwan. You can see it all over the place, with the "Universal Evangelist Church of the Formosa Island", etc. I know some come from Guanzhou (sp?) province, but I always thought they mainly came from Taiwan.

Saludos,
Marambio
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B742
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RE: China Southern Asking For Routes To Argentina

Tue Mar 22, 2005 2:58 am

I would love too see China Southern operate:

CAN-JFK/EWR-EZE or CAN-LHR-EZE

I could see this as a very profitable routes!

Rob!
 
AR1300
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RE: China Southern Asking For Routes To Argentina

Tue Mar 22, 2005 3:35 am

Well,Marambio, now you know....



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Renton_WA
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RE: China Southern Asking For Routes To Argentina

Tue Mar 22, 2005 3:47 am

We should know better than to jump to conclusions. China Southern asked for rights to fly to Argentina, from what I read, that's all that was stated. This could easily be for cargo flights and not necessarily for passenger flights.

As far as the Chinese community in Argentina, when I lived there (until 92) I remember seeing plenty but all this talk about how big is the community in Argentina, does it warrant direct flights is irrelevant, in my opinion. Remember both governments had signed trade agreements etc, China is investing money in Argentina, so who knows, maybe the Chinese community will grow? Does that makes anyone feel better?  box  Kiddin' y'all.

What I find really interesting is Emirates wanting to start daily non-stop flights to Buenos Aires in 2006.

Renton_WA
 
Marambio
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RE: China Southern Asking For Routes To Argentina

Tue Mar 22, 2005 5:49 am

Quoting AR1300 (Reply 30):
Well,Marambio, now you know....

What do I know now? No offense, but I don't believe that your almacenero de la esquina is a very reliable source. I have spoken with people who are into the topic for different reasons and they told me the biggest Chinese community comes from Taiwan, followed by people from the Guanzhou (sp?) province. Add to this that, as another member said, the whole Chinese population is 30,000 people. Small if you ask me, and since they belong to the lower middle-class, it wouldn't make any sense to have such a low-yield service to China.

Quoting Renton_WA (Reply 31):
What I find really interesting is Emirates wanting to start daily non-stop flights to Buenos Aires in 2006.

That makes two of us. EK got 7 weekly slots to Argentina last year. A few weeks ago, at the Messe Berlin, EK executives met Secretary Ricardo Cirielli. They said they would start DXB-EZE daily with A345 before the end of 2006. As for me, I won't believe it untill I see the plane landing at EZE.  Smile

Saludos,
Marambio
Aerolíneas Argentinas - La Argentina que levanta vuelo
 
LVZXV
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RE: China Southern Asking For Routes To Argentina

Tue Mar 22, 2005 12:01 pm

I think Argentina's Korean community is >30,000, but again, hard working though they are, most live below the poverty line and their journeys from Korea in the '50s and '60s were almost exclusively one way.

As for CZ's route proposals, I suggest something a bit more wacky, in order to keep the route as short as possible while evading competition from MH and SA out of CPT:

CAN-TNR-EZE (10,126nm). Either TNR* could be a technical stop only, or otherwise, think about it, Madagascar could prove to be a cheap African getaway for Argentines. And the route is just 8nm than via CPT.

*TNR=Antananarivo, or "Tana" for short.

Saludos,

ZXV
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AR1300
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RE: China Southern Asking For Routes To Argentina

Tue Mar 22, 2005 1:30 pm

Well, now I know...  Smile


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The777Man
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RE: China Southern Asking For Routes To Argentina

Tue Mar 22, 2005 4:01 pm

From an operational standpoint, it makes sense to route the flight via LAX since China Southern (CZ) already has a presence there. Also, there are no nonstop flights LAX-EZE so if CZ gets local traffic rights, they could provide a new link from Southern California to South America. It's been a few years since AR flew to LAX.

Any new service to South America by a Chinese carrier would make sense to go thru LAX.

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lehpron
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RE: China Southern Asking For Routes To Argentina

Tue Mar 22, 2005 4:29 pm

Quoting AR1300 (Reply 14):
plus all this chinese bussines that has been going around for a while.

Sorry if off topic, is China outsourcing its jobs to Argentina?

Then the market for travel would be giant.

I do mean to insue: Does anyone not see these growing super long range routes as a possible market for a future highspeed transport system?
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ConcordeBoy
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RE: China Southern Asking For Routes To Argentina

Wed Mar 23, 2005 4:09 am

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 24):
Also, KE is currently looking for a someone to represent them in S. Paulo, so hopefully they will resume operations down here soon

Be sweet if they/that would encourage JJ to make a jump to SkyTeam.
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Arrow
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RE: China Southern Asking For Routes To Argentina

Wed Mar 23, 2005 4:36 am

"Any new service to South America by a Chinese carrier would make sense to go thru LAX."

YVR is working very hard to line up this kind of Asia to South America traffic, although Brazil, Chile and Peru appear to be higher up the list than Argentina. Here's a news article quote:

"John Korenic, Director of Aviation Marketing at the Vancouver Airport Authority confirmed that the airport is now hoping to encourage direct flights between Vancouver and Sao Paulo, Brazil; Santiago, Chile; and Lima, Peru – and the focus is on Asian travelers.

“If you go to Sao Paulo, there’s a very large ethnic Japanese market there,” Korenic said. “The same with Lima, but not quite as much with Chile.” In fact, Sao Paulo’s population of 10 million includes the largest Japanese community outside Japan."


A big part of the attraction for this kind of traffic is avoiding a U.S. stopover and all the visa/customs rules that would entail. Mexicana is doubling its YVR to Mexico City traffic in part to accommodate growth in Asian demand. Here's another quote from same article:

"Introduced in 2002 on a four-flights-a week basis, the traffic has grown so much that the airline now has 11 flights a week, and hopes to move to two flights a day as early as this summer. Most of that growth is coming from
Canada and Central America, but a Mexicana spokesperson confirmed that Asian connecting traffic is now growing dramatically.

“It is growing like crazy,” said Veronica Madore, Mexicana’s Regional Sales Manager for Western Canada. “It was zero and in a year about 3% of our connections are coming from Asia.” The potential is so high that a year ago, Mexicana changed its Vancouver departure times to connect with incoming Asian flights."

Toronto is in this game, too, although their concentration is more on European traffic. 'Nother line:

"Calgary aviation consultant Rick Erickson of RP Erickson and Associates estimates that nearly $350 million of trans-continental business is on the table for Air Canada to capture, and he believes about 30% of that could be Vancouver-based.

“The U.S. is being particularly short-sighted,” Erickson said. “They have visa restrictions, and as I watch Air Canada moving out of bankruptcy, their business plan is predicated on future growth internationally. That’s where the profitability lies. One of their most magnificent opportunities is because of the short-sightedness of our American colleagues.”


I would guess that YVR and YYZ will look at a possible enticement for China Southern. All they need is for the lead-footed federal government to sign some bilaterals and grant some 5th freedom rights, and a continued obssession with security south of the border.
Never let the facts get in the way of a good story.
 
CXYYZ
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RE: China Southern Asking For Routes To Argentina

Wed Mar 23, 2005 8:02 am

I don't think CZ would fly through YYZ or YVR as their first choice, especially not from CAN. In both Vancouver and Toronto, the Chinese population is largely originated from Hong Kong, not mainland China so flying from CAN is actually a disadvantage on these routes when compared to the service from AC to Hong Kong and Latin America.

That said, I'd like to see CZ make a go of it.
 
PPVRA
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RE: China Southern Asking For Routes To Argentina

Wed Mar 23, 2005 8:09 am

What you guys think of China-MEX-EZE? There are/were plans to either MX or a Chinese airline to fly to MEX some time ago, think they are still on planning stages...

Cheers,

PPVRA
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
AR1300
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RE: China Southern Asking For Routes To Argentina

Wed Mar 23, 2005 8:44 am

Quoting Lehpron (Reply 35):
Sorry if off topic, is China outsourcing its jobs to Argentina?

Then the market for travel would be giant.

No it wouldn't.They usually come thru some sort of arrengememt with the mafia, so they don't pay a lot, and usually come pennyless.As Marambio said, they belong to the middle-lower class, so they don't have money to afford a ticket to China.


Mike.
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chinaeastern
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RE: China Southern Asking For Routes To Argentina

Wed Mar 23, 2005 6:54 pm

let's not forget chinese passport holders are strickly bound by transiting visas world wide, if CZ starts EZE, SYD/MEL should be ideal points as australian transit visas are relatively easy to obtain, not to metion the US visas, even transiting AKL is a pain in the .ss as NZ transit visas are not only hard to get but also quite expensive

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Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos