glidepath73
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MAD-Barajas 25% Bigger As LHR From 2006 Onwards!

Tue Mar 22, 2005 7:15 am

As "Airport Council International" says in a Spanish newspaper, MAD-Barajas will be the second biggest Airport in the world, after it reaches it's full capacity of up to 70 million passengers a year. This would mean, MAD would be after ATL the second biggest airport in the world. That means it would be 25% bigger then LHR when it reaches it's full capacity.
Even 130.000 new jobs will be created by that in the next ten years. In the rush hours, MAD will be able to handle up to 18.000 passengers in one hour, instead of the current 7500.
The size of the terminals will grow from 198.000 square meters to 940.000 square meters. The baggage system will be able to handle up to 16.500 pieces of luggage per hour. This will be managed by 90 kilometers of new belts. The runway system allows up to 120 take-offs and landings per hour.
The goal of MAD is to become the fourth HUB-airport in Europe along with CDG, FRA, LHR.

Really cool!

Regards,
Patrick   

[Edited 2005-03-21 23:20:04]
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DAL767400ER
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RE: MAD-Barajas 25% Bigger As LHR From 2006 Onwards!

Tue Mar 22, 2005 7:43 am

Quoting Glidepath73 (Thread starter):
As "Airport Council International" says in a Spanish newspaper, MAD-Barajas will be the second biggest Airport in the world, after it reaches it's full capacity of up to 70 million passengers a year. This would mean, MAD would be after ATL the second biggest airport in the world. That means it would be 25% bigger then LHR when it reaches it's full capacity.

The problem with such data is that other airports are growing as well. ATL is slowly going for 100 million pax, ORD is going for 90, LHR for 80, CDG is growing, FRA is growing, and we must never forget DXB. MAD will never be the world's second biggest airport. It just lacks the combo of O&D and massive connections that the other mega airports offer.
 
gigneil
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RE: MAD-Barajas 25% Bigger As LHR From 2006 Onwards!

Tue Mar 22, 2005 7:45 am

It may grow to be capable of 70 million passengers, but I sincerely doubt it will actually carry them.

N
 
IBERIA747
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RE: MAD-Barajas 25% Bigger As LHR From 2006 Onwards!

Tue Mar 22, 2005 9:01 am

Quoting DAL767400ER (Reply 1):
FRA is growing

Pretty difficult due to lack of space...won't be able to expand too much unless they build a new terminal complex really far away from the current complex.

Quoting DAL767400ER (Reply 1):
MAD will never be the world's second biggest airport.

I'm sorry to burst your bubble pal...but it will be, next year (in fact it is already   ) and will remain that way until another airport surpasses it (not many on the list).

Quoting Gigneil (Reply 2):
It may grow to be capable of 70 million passengers, but I sincerely doubt it will actually carry them.

Why not?

This is the traffic growth for MAD in the last 10 years (plus 1990)
1990: 14,0 million passengers.
1994: 18,4
1995: 19,9
1996: 21,9
1997: 23,6
1998: 25,5
1999: 28,1
2000: 32,7
2001: 34,0
2002: 33,8
2003: 35,7
2004: 38,5

This makes MAD to currently rank 5th among Europe's busiest airports and above many US main airports such as JFK or MIA in the world ranking. It also ranks above other important airports such as HKG, SIN or NRT.

Don't forget that this expansion has been made with the year 2025 in mind...we don't expect MAD to reach such traffic levels in a couple of years, but in the following 15 or 20 years although I'm pretty sure it will be before that.

And as Glidepath said, the goal is to have MAD as the FOURTH hub in Europe by then.

[Edited 2005-03-22 01:07:43]
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JoFMO
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RE: MAD-Barajas 25% Bigger As LHR From 2006 Onwards!

Tue Mar 22, 2005 11:33 am

Quoting IBERIA747 (Reply 3):
Pretty difficult due to lack of space...won't be able to expand too much unless they build a new terminal complex really far away from the current complex

That's actually what they are doing. Building a third terminal south of the current parallel runway system and adding a 4th runway for a capacity of 120 slots per hour.

Quoting IBERIA747 (Reply 3):
And as Glidepath said, the goal is to have MAD as the FOURTH hub in Europe by then.

Nothing against Spain and MAD, but I doubt that they will ever reach European no 4. MAD has a bad location for transfer traffic. It is too fra south for traffic to North America and too far west for traffic to Asia. It is perfect for latin America, but that is not where the big number go.
Therefore I see MAD behind LHR, CDG, FRA and AMS for the next two decades. MAD even has to watch that they don't fall behind FCO and MUC.
 
incitatus
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RE: MAD-Barajas 25% Bigger As LHR From 2006 Onwards!

Tue Mar 22, 2005 12:24 pm

Quoting DAL767400ER (Reply 1):
MAD will never be the world's second biggest airport.

Who would guess that a little city like Atlanta would have the largest airport in the World?
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Rafabozzolla
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RE: MAD-Barajas 25% Bigger As LHR From 2006 Onwards!

Tue Mar 22, 2005 12:54 pm

MAD will have a CAPACITY of 70M, that does not mean it will HANDLE that much.

That said, I won't be surprised if MAD grows faster than some other Euro airports, of course there are many reasons to attract traffic to an airport, and free slots and terminal space are some of them.

Expansion at FRA may as well take a good while. At LHR, T5 will only make the airport adequate for the traffic levels it will have when it opens, what means LHR will be saturated again in no time. Don't really know about AMS, but the greens are very active against increasing movements there. So only CDG has a real chance of expansion compared to MAD and this may be important in the future.

The bottom line? No one actually knows what will happen.

PS: Kudos to AENA for their strategic plans for both MAD and BCN
 
schipholjfk
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RE: MAD-Barajas 25% Bigger As LHR From 2006 Onwards!

Tue Mar 22, 2005 1:21 pm

Quoting IBERIA747 (Reply 3):
This makes MAD to currently rank 5th among Europe's busiest airports and above many US main airports such as JFK or MIA in the world ranking. It also ranks above other important airports such as HKG, SIN or NRT.

I love the way how these discussions become so nationalistic !!! Just couple of reminders... JFK is one of THREE NYC area airports. Combined these three aiports handle close to 90+ million. Just use your COMMON SENSE folks... MAD in the near future will not in come numbers that FRA, LHR or CDG generates. Partly due to its geographic location and partly for the simple fact FRA, LHR and CDG are strategically more important on many levels. I doubt a large number of US or Asian airlines such as Air India, Emirates, etc will use MAD over FRA or LHR or CDG. Just does not make any sense given the demographics of passengers they carry. MAD has a closer tie to Latin America and you see that in the number of flights that come in from that part of the world. In terms of intra-Europe flights, LHR, FRA, CDG or to even lighter extent AMS will continue to grow. So will MAD. But not at any significant rate to over take the growth rates at other airports. This reminds me of the situation at KUL. I remember traveling through KUL many times soon after the KLIA was opened and there was a tremendous buzz in Malaysia in terms how it would become a "big-time" hub. Never happened when SIN and BKK (the two immediate neighbors of KUL) are more attractive to business, tourist and any other types of travelers. By the way, KLIA ia a beautiful, environmentally-friendly airport... if you all get a chance please do visit it.
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schipholjfk
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RE: MAD-Barajas 25% Bigger As LHR From 2006 Onwards!

Tue Mar 22, 2005 1:25 pm

Quoting Incitatus (Reply 5):
Who would guess that a little city like Atlanta would have the largest airport in the World?

Atlanta does not have the largest airport by passenger count because of its size, but because of couple of major airlines using it as its hub. And also because of Atlanta's strategic location. I myself have passed through ATL on many occasions, but never been to Atlanta itself! Just transiting on Delta. So the size of a city has nothing to do with the volume of passenger traffic, rather if the airport has one or more major players using it as a hub to transit passengers.
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glidepath73
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RE: MAD-Barajas 25% Bigger As LHR From 2006 Onwards!

Tue Mar 22, 2005 5:24 pm

I just posted the facts, they wrote in this article.
Let's see how the south- and latin America market will grow.

Regards,
Patrick
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wheelsatc
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RE: MAD-Barajas 25% Bigger As LHR From 2006 Onwards!

Tue Mar 22, 2005 9:33 pm

The latin and South american markets can grow all they want but they will never be bigger than north america and Asia which are far better connected through LHR, FRA, CDG and AMS and hence those four airports will always remain ahead of MAD.
 
767-332ER
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RE: MAD-Barajas 25% Bigger As LHR From 2006 Onwards!

Tue Mar 22, 2005 9:57 pm

Quoting Incitatus (Reply 5):
Who would guess that a little city like Atlanta would have the largest airport in the World?

May I remind you that this little city has over 4 million people in it's metro area and is home to many important players in today's business world.
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miaskies
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RE: MAD-Barajas 25% Bigger As LHR From 2006 Onwards!

Tue Mar 22, 2005 10:00 pm

Madrid? ... nada que ver! It is a big airport; granted! but 2nd largest in the world as far as pax numbers? hmmm... I want to see that one!

Maybe if they get to host the olympics then they will become the 2nd largest airport for that summer, considering they will have airline service from preety much everywhere in the world that summer!!!

just my 2 cents...
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767-332ER
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RE: MAD-Barajas 25% Bigger As LHR From 2006 Onwards!

Tue Mar 22, 2005 10:10 pm

Also, another point I wanted to make and the bureacracy is far beyond me but we must note that all international traffic in Spain is flowed thru Madrid. Granted BCN gets the summer service from JFK and ATL with Delta, but everything else across the Atlantic is flown into MAD. I have known of previous attempts by AA to fly into southern Spain and these attempts were declined. So pretty much all the significant international traffic into the Iberian peninsula is flown into MAD. LIS receives their Varig, TAP and Continental services, and that's about it. To be one of the most popular tourist locations in the world, this is one way to control the flow of traffic and thus, boost numbers that otherwise would not be as high.
Regards
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miaskies
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RE: MAD-Barajas 25% Bigger As LHR From 2006 Onwards!

Tue Mar 22, 2005 10:21 pm

US will fly to BCN from PHL this summer nonstop ; summer seasonal as well.
AA attempted to fly JFK-BCN but because of poor demand, the route was dropped. AA is considering MIA-BCN, let's see how that goes... but as mentioned before, new service to other Euro.cities from MIA will more than likely launch before MIA-BCN does. MIA is served 2x daily to MAD w/ IB & AA so all the traffic goes through MAD.
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IBERIA747
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RE: MAD-Barajas 25% Bigger As LHR From 2006 Onwards!

Tue Mar 22, 2005 10:39 pm

Quoting JoFMO (Reply 4):
Nothing against Spain and MAD, but I doubt that they will ever reach European no 4. MAD



Quoting JoFMO (Reply 4):
MAD even has to watch that they don't fall behind FCO and MUC.

Check the statistics...the existing gap between MAD and AMS is getting smaller every year. On the other hand, the gap between MAD and FCO has been increasing every year while MUC also lies far behind.
15 years ago MAD ranked 30th worldwide for pax traffic...now it ranks 13th in the same list.

About the airport's size...I don't think that having a 940,000 m2 (about 10 million sq. feet) terminal complex is or will be easy to beat for many airports...it's even bigger than ATL is now.

As I said before, MAD has experienced this big expansion so they won't need to build any additional facilities in the next 20 years, as opposite to what they have been doing in the last 20 years...it's not that we are going to see that much traffic in the next 2 years.

One thing I forgot to say...

Maybe we are talking about different things here: busiest Vs. biggest.
About "busiest": I am quite aware that MAD will never be the world's 2nd largest in those terms even though it will be the 2nd by capacity for some time.
About "biggest"...well, the numbers speak for themselves. MAD will be in terms of terminal area about 30% bigger than ATL is now, almost twice the size of HKG and about 4,5 times bigger than DTW's new "McNamara terminal".

It will be a good thing having lots of room available for the years to come, something that not many big airports can enjoy nowadays.

[Edited 2005-03-22 14:56:19]
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DAL767400ER
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RE: MAD-Barajas 25% Bigger As LHR From 2006 Onwards!

Wed Mar 23, 2005 12:00 am

What good is it if you have the world's largest (or 2nd largest) terminal complex if you don't even have 50% the pax numbers of the next best competitor?
 
IBERIA747
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RE: MAD-Barajas 25% Bigger As LHR From 2006 Onwards!

Wed Mar 23, 2005 12:11 am

DAL767400ER,

To answer your question...what's (in your opinion) the bad part about having plenty of room available?


It will be great to be able to take off from MAD without having to spend 45 minutes between the time when your aircraft pushes back off the gate and the time when it takes off, as happens now. It's not exactly "pleasing" when the captain announces "Ladies and gentlemen, we are number 15 for take off"

Btw it also happens in ATL, and we better not talk about LHR (that's scary)

[Edited 2005-03-22 16:27:06]
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AM744
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RE: MAD-Barajas 25% Bigger As LHR From 2006 Onwards!

Wed Mar 23, 2005 12:17 am

Build it and they will come. I'm sure that space will have competitive fares and many other conveniences, thus the airport WILL be used to its max capacity when the time comes.
 
IBERIA747
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RE: MAD-Barajas 25% Bigger As LHR From 2006 Onwards!

Wed Mar 23, 2005 12:22 am

Btw...there are plans already being studied about "what to do" the day MAD wll reach it's maximum utilization...believe me, it will.
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DAL767400ER
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RE: MAD-Barajas 25% Bigger As LHR From 2006 Onwards!

Wed Mar 23, 2005 12:30 am

Quoting IBERIA747 (Reply 17):
To answer your question...what's (in your opinion) the bad part about having plenty of room available?

There's nothing bad about it, but I'd rather see a smaller, yet fuller terminal, because there I can see that the millions of $ or € have been put to good use. And about having a 45-minute wait at ATL, outside of severerly bad weather, I have yet to experience a waiting time at ATL longer than 25 minutes.
 
stirling
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RE: MAD-Barajas 25% Bigger As LHR From 2006 Onwards!

Wed Mar 23, 2005 12:34 am

Madrid's latest metropolitan population: 5,9 millions.

Madrid CONTINUES to grow. Look to ANY horizon and witness firsthand the construction taking place at every position of the compass. Massive blocks of buildings to house the thousands moving to Madrid every day.

Madrid is a destination, AND an origination. Does an airport need to be a connecting hub to become a world traffic leader?
Madrid does not have the small population base like say AMS, and the resulting need to supplement revenues with transitting passenger traffic. (I mean no offense to my dear friends in AMS, but frankly Schipol's market base is static, the population growth in a year, is as much as Madrid does in a week, so thus the necessity to explore non-traditional profit centers, i.e., maitenance, connections, shopping etc. to supplement it's growth. Typical Dutch ingenuity at turning a negative into a positive.)

Madrid is not ringed by other airports whose primary objective is to siphon off the mother airport's traffic. Draw 100km circles around the other major European airports, and you will see Madrid with a much more captive cachement area compared to, say, Frankfurt, where alternate airport choices abound, or London, and the rest of the UK for that matter. What is the closest airport to Madrid? Valladolid? Granada? And those are boutique airports offering limited services on niche LCC carriers. Because Madrid is served by just ONE massive airport, it could be misconstrued as an impediture to competition, OR a wise scheme of AENA to protect their investment. Either way, it would take something of apocalyptic proportions to dislodge Madrid-Barajas from it's ordained course.


Madrid, and the rest of Spain, is quite capable thank you, of doing something that is better than the rest of Europe. Believe it or not! (The fact that Madrid is still in the running for ANOTHER Olympic Games so soon after Barcelona 92 is a telling fact.....and IMHO, it is still the far and away the best choice of the remaining cities.)

I will not cast false accusations at persons I do not know, however, reading some of the insular comments above, on their face, appear to contain a good deal of prejudice towards the Iberian peninsula. Whether or not you choose to accept it, Madrid's position as one of the premier European gateways is a definite certainty.

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cornish
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RE: MAD-Barajas 25% Bigger As LHR From 2006 Onwards!

Wed Mar 23, 2005 12:53 am

Well there is no doubt that MAD will be one of the world's largest airports when it is completed. How long it will take to fill up to 70 million passenger capacity is a big question, but they certainly have a long way to go from their current numbers.

I honestly don't believe it will overtake LHR, FRA, or CDG - maybe AMS but only if AF lets KL and AMS stagnate in the future to benefit CDG.

However AMS has the big advantage of its connectivity. A lot of traffic from the UK and other parts of northern Europe connect on to long haul flights there, not forgetting its a big tourist destination in its own right.

And this is the problem with MAD - it is obviously the leading airpot in europe for connecting to Latin America but it is weak in other areas - particularly to Asia, Middle East and Africa - and also N.America to some extent. This isn't going to change any time soon, partcularly with IB and BA's alliance. Each plays to their strengths and IB feed long haul traffic to these other world regions on to BA. And carriers from those regions do not generally fly to MAD.

In addition where LON and PAR are two of the biggest tourist destination cities in the world, MAD ranks far behind. Its a great city, but the majority of foreigners think beaches and Barcelona when they think of Spain and tourism, so despite its many attractions it will not be number one on many people's lists.

That's not to knock Madrid - far from it. I think the new terminal will be fantastic, but I don't think it will be overtaking the bigger European airports in passenger traffic anytime soon.
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BCNGRO
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RE: MAD-Barajas 25% Bigger As LHR From 2006 Onwards!

Wed Mar 23, 2005 12:57 am

Quoting Glidepath73 (Thread starter):
MAD-Barajas will be the second biggest Airport in the world

I don't think so, MAD is not alone  no .

BCN, which seems to be doing really well lately, has also an expansion plan -it plans to handle 40M pax by 2020- and I don't think the two airports will be able to grow that much being so close to eachother.

Maybe if BCN wasn't there... but this is not the case  devil .
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IBERIA747
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RE: MAD-Barajas 25% Bigger As LHR From 2006 Onwards!

Wed Mar 23, 2005 1:06 am

Quoting Cornish (Reply 22):
How long it will take to fill up to 70 million passenger capacity is a big question

As I have mentioned before (twice), AENA has said they expect MAD to reach 70 million pax per year by 2025 (I think it could be before).

And as I said on my previous post, there are plans under study to build a new airport outside Madrid by the time Barajas will reach it's maximum utilization.

The new airport would most likely be built in the town of Campo Real (35 Km. SE from Madrid and close to Arganda), and should be ready to enter service by 2025. In fact, many people here said that it would have been a better idea to build the new airport instead of expanding Barajas' facilities.
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IBERIA747
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RE: MAD-Barajas 25% Bigger As LHR From 2006 Onwards!

Wed Mar 23, 2005 1:11 am

BCNGRO,

Both MAD and BCN have been growing rapidly in the last years without interfering with each other's growth, so I don't see a reason why it should change...in fact, pax traffic at MAD grew about 8% last year, being the Spanish airport with the highest growth rate, and well above the most important European airports.
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schipholjfk
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RE: MAD-Barajas 25% Bigger As LHR From 2006 Onwards!

Wed Mar 23, 2005 1:34 am

Quoting AM744 (Reply 18):
Build it and they will come. I'm sure that space will have competitive fares and many other conveniences, thus the airport WILL be used to its max capacity when the time comes.

Why don't you ask the people at KLIA (Malaysia) and find out how well they have done with international traffic. Most of their current growth is from LCC carriers. Come from where?
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Braybuddy
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RE: MAD-Barajas 25% Bigger As LHR From 2006 Onwards!

Wed Mar 23, 2005 1:37 am

If ever there was a case for the necessity of the A380 and a future stretch, this is it!
 
cornish
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RE: MAD-Barajas 25% Bigger As LHR From 2006 Onwards!

Wed Mar 23, 2005 1:47 am

Out of interest - and I'm hoping some of our Spanish a.netters can help me here, to what extent will Barajas traffic be affected by the further expansion of the Spanish high speed train network. We've seen how its affected French domestic traffic, and I once saw some figures that suggested that the High speed trains now have 80% of the market between Madrid and Seville. I know that MAD-BCN is possibly the largest domestic city pair in Europe in terms of passengers - is there likely to be a large drop off in O&D passengers between the two cities ? (not connecting passengers of course). And are we lilkely to see further high speed train connections to other Spanish cities within the period to 2025 that might make a difference.

I know the metro goes to Barajas, but is there any plans to link it into the high speed rail network in the manner of CDG? - from what I can remember the airport is not close to any of the existing major lines.
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IBERIA747
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RE: MAD-Barajas 25% Bigger As LHR From 2006 Onwards!

Wed Mar 23, 2005 1:49 am

This is Madrid, not Kuala Lumpur...the numbers speak for themselves, and hey...Madrid is not exactly an "LCC Paradise".

We should ask then where has the traffic came from during these years.

[Edited 2005-03-22 17:51:53]
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BCNGRO
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RE: MAD-Barajas 25% Bigger As LHR From 2006 Onward

Wed Mar 23, 2005 1:52 am

Indeed, both airports are nowadays growing rapidly (and I hope it doesn't change) but, as it usually happens, this rapid growth will, at some point, slow down and the market will stabilize. I don't think the economy of the country, and specially Europe, will allow the two airports to grow like that for ever.
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bongo
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RE: MAD-Barajas 25% Bigger As LHR From 2006 Onwards!

Wed Mar 23, 2005 2:06 am

Will MAD be ready for the A380 ?
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tripple7
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RE: MAD-Barajas 25% Bigger As LHR From 2006 Onwards!

Wed Mar 23, 2005 3:21 am

Quoting Stirling (Reply 21):
Madrid is a destination, AND an origination. Does an airport need to be a connecting hub to become a world traffic leader?
Madrid does not have the small population base like say AMS, and the resulting need to supplement revenues with transitting passenger traffic. (I mean no offense to my dear friends in AMS, but frankly Schipol's market base is static, the population growth in a year, is as much as Madrid does in a week, so thus the necessity to explore non-traditional profit centers, i.e., maitenance, connections, shopping etc. to supplement it's growth. Typical Dutch ingenuity at turning a negative into a positive.)


I think you should not compare Amsterdam and Madrid as cities as they are, but their conglomorate areas should be compared. Bear in mind that within one hour of travelling you have Rotterdam, the Hague, Utrecht and all of their suburbs. I don't have the actual statistics, but this could be very close to or even be more (very likely) than Madrid's metropolitan population. Furthermore, AMS is a big tourist destination, and the western part of the Netherlands is home to many many HQ of large multinationals in the world. So why would AMS not be a destination or an origination? Could you explain why Madrid would be more of a destination/origination? AMS does have more competition from regional airports.

[Edited 2005-03-22 19:23:23]
 
travelin man
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RE: MAD-Barajas 25% Bigger As LHR From 2006 Onwards!

Wed Mar 23, 2005 3:22 am

Quoting Glidepath73 (Thread starter):
As "Airport Council International" says in a Spanish newspaper, MAD-Barajas will be the second biggest Airport in the world, after it reaches it's full capacity of up to 70 million passengers a year. This would mean, MAD would be after ATL the second biggest airport in the world.



Quoting IBERIA747 (Reply 24):
As I have mentioned before (twice), AENA has said they expect MAD to reach 70 million pax per year by 2025

IF Madrid reaches 70 million pax/year by 2025, I guarantee you it will NOT be the "second biggest airport in the world". ATL and ORD are already at the 70M mark, and by 2025, who knows how many other airports will have surpassed it? (I can think of LAX, LHR, HND, CDG, DFW, FRA etc. etc. etc.). You are making a big mistake thinking that even while MAD grows, all other airports will not. I'm not saying that MAD is not an important gateway (it is), but in no way will it be the second largest airport, even by 2025.
 
airbazar
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RE: MAD-Barajas 25% Bigger As LHR From 2006 Onwards!

Wed Mar 23, 2005 3:46 am

Quoting Schipholjfk (Reply 26):
Why don't you ask the people at KLIA (Malaysia) and find out how well they have done with international traffic. Most of their current growth is from LCC carriers. Come from where?

Look South my friend, about 300mi, and you will find the answer.

Quoting JoFMO (Reply 4):
MAD has a bad location for transfer traffic. It is too fra south for traffic to North America and too far west for traffic to Asia.

It takes more than geographic location to make a great hub. SIN is not exactly well situated for Asian connections and yet, it does really well. ATL is in a crappy location in the US and it's one of the busiest airports in the World.
When you're traveling long distances, a detour of a few hundred miles makes little difference. You can't just look at the great circle route 'cause most most flights don't exactly follow that. There are other factors such as air traffic delays, airport delays, the overall efficiency of the hub, etc. Take LHR for example where you need at least 1 1/2 to 2 hours to transfer between flights, versus MUC where you need only 35 minutes to transfer.
 
IBERIA747
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RE: MAD-Barajas 25% Bigger As LHR From 2006 Onwards!

Wed Mar 23, 2005 4:13 am

Quoting Travelin man (Reply 33):
You are making a big mistake

No, Travelin man, you are the one who's making the biggest of all mistakes here because NOBODY has said that MAD will be the world's 2nd largest airport in 2025.

Quoting Travelin man (Reply 33):
I guarantee you it will NOT be the "second biggest airport in the world

And I guarantee you that it WILL be.
The thing that has been said is "MAD will be the world's 2nd largest airport when it's new terminals are open next year", and that means 2006...NOT 2025. Different, huh?.

If you still don't understand then I'll say it in other way:

Next year (2006) when Madrid-Barajas new terminals are open, it will be the world's 2nd largest airport, only surpassed by ATL in terms of pax capacity.

MAD the world's 2nd largest in 2025? of course not!!...nobody said that!!

Another thing is that people seems to be unable to make a difference between the terms "biggest" and "busiest".

Thus, MAD will the the 2nd biggest, NOT the second busiest...please, Travellin man...read all replies first.
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bongo
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RE: MAD-Barajas 25% Bigger As LHR From 2006 Onwards!

Wed Mar 23, 2005 6:18 am

Can someone confirm if they will (MAD) be ready for the A380 ?
MDE: First airport in the Americas visited by the A380!
 
travelin man
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RE: MAD-Barajas 25% Bigger As LHR From 2006 Onwards!

Wed Mar 23, 2005 6:54 am

Yeah, I think that was uncalled for. But thanks for the feedback. Since apparently you cannot ellaborate, can anyone else? What does "second biggest" mean in this article, if it does not mean # of passengers carried, # of aircraft movements, land area, etc.???

Anyone other than Iberia747's comments will be appreciated.
 
ndebelebev
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RE: MAD-Barajas 25% Bigger As LHR From 2006 Onwards!

Wed Mar 23, 2005 7:01 am

I think Iberia747 is just trying to post about a topic he knows quite a lot about. But I can see where you are coming from when you ask what does 'biggest' mean?

Just my 2 euros worth.

Bev xx
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IBERIA747
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RE: MAD-Barajas 25% Bigger As LHR From 2006 Onwards!

Wed Mar 23, 2005 7:14 am

Let's make a few things clear here:

Physical size is one thing. Capacity is a different one...and finally, utilisation is also a different thing.

This said...this is what MAD is going to be:
World's biggest terminal complex with 940,000 m2 of terminals<----- that's physical size.

Able to handle up to 70 million passengers per year <----- that's cappacity...2nd BIGGEST IN TERMS OF CAPACITY, NOT TRAFFIC...in 2006

Pax traffic is expected to reach 70 million per year by 2025 <---- that's utilisation, so MAD is expected to reach it's FULL UTILISATION in 2025.

Next yearMadrid-Barajas will have the world's biggest terminal complex (Physical size) and will be CAPABLE (cappacity) of handling up to 70 million passengers which means it will be the world's 2nd in that area.

Full capacity: 2006
Full utilisation of that capacity: 2025

[Edited 2005-03-22 23:21:24]
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travelin man
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RE: MAD-Barajas 25% Bigger As LHR From 2006 Onwards!

Wed Mar 23, 2005 7:20 am

Wow, you were able to clarify without even insulting my intelligence. Thanks for the clarification.
 
anxebla
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RE: MAD-Barajas 25% Bigger As LHR From 2006 Onwards!

Wed Mar 23, 2005 7:24 am

Within 4/5 years MAD can growing as far as 50 M pax. But I can not understand Madrid-Barajas could be closed within 20 years like Alfonso (IB747) knows perfectly.

As a Spanish tax-payer, it is totally unacceptable. Madrid does NOT need a new airport each 25/30 years. What a waste of money!!!
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IBERIA747
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RE: MAD-Barajas 25% Bigger As LHR From 2006 Onwards!

Wed Mar 23, 2005 7:44 am

Andrés,

Maybe our "wise authorities" could think twice about it and let Barajas remain open after 2025.

One thing I have noticed is that if the airport in Campo Real finally becomes a reality it will be right below the current approach path for Barajas' Rwys 33L and 33R...so what's it gonna be? Nobody knows.

The only thing that seems to be certain now is that Barajas will not be able to be expanded anymore after reaching it's new traffic limits, and this means only one thing: that Madrid will need a new airport whether Barajas remains open or not ( I think it should remain open but I don't know how the surrounding area will be in 2025...).

About not needing a new airport each 25-30 years, don't forget that Barajas has been the main airport for Madrid since the 30s...that's more than 70 years ago, and that in case there is a new airport for Madrid in the future, it will last more than just 25-30 years as well.

Saludos,


Travellin man,

I'm glad that you could finally understand. Just take it easy the next time, as you were the one who lost it with your "disrespected users" comment, which for me was a direct insult.

[Edited 2005-03-22 23:46:03]
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Buyantukhaa
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RE: MAD-Barajas 25% Bigger As LHR From 2006 Onwards!

Wed Mar 23, 2005 9:23 am

I think this expansion plan is a bit strange in terms of utilisation. While I think it's very good that AENA looks so far ahead, I think it's financially not that wise to have a terminal that reaches full utilisation only after twenty years. Unused terminals still consume electricity, require maintenance and cleaning etc. I my opinion, it would have made more sense to PLAN twenty years ahead, but to have a (initially smaller) modular terminal where you can simply add another section, a few years (five or so) before maximum capacity would have been reached. Think of AMS where the first section of the West part of the terminal was built in the early 90s, and where an extension is now added.

Speaking of AMS, there are plans (and land is kept empty for this purpose) to add two more runways (one between 18R-36L and 18C-36C, another parallel to 06-24) and a massive new terminal. So while Madrid is preparing for strong growth, the competition isn't sleeping!

About a replacement airport, I'd say that planning beyond 20 years is risky now, because I'm willing to bet that by then fossil fuel prices will be atrocious. If by then an alternative energy carrier has been invented for use in aviation, great. If not, I doubt there'd be a need for another airport....
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stirling
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RE: MAD-Barajas 25% Bigger As LHR From 2006 Onwards!

Wed Mar 23, 2005 12:58 pm

Quoting Tripple7 (Reply 32):
So why would AMS not be a destination or an origination

I never said it wasn't. AMS is definitely a destination, and I can't wait to visit again soon.

Quoting Tripple7 (Reply 32):
Could you explain why Madrid would be more of a destination/origination?

Domestic Traffic.
VFR.
Business.
Regional Connections.

The population of the Netherlands is 18 millions. Spain is 40 millions.
The population of Amsterdam is 735,000
The population of greater Amsterdam is 2,3 millions. About one third of the size of Madrid, with four times the competition.

Madrid-Barajas serves a much larger EXCLUSIVE territory than Schipol. Nothing against AMS, Madrid is just better positioned for greater future growth.
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IberiaN
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RE: MAD-Barajas 25% Bigger As LHR From 2006 Onwards!

Thu Mar 24, 2005 9:30 pm

Hi!
I think that MAD will probably be the second airport in the world, of course in terms of capacity, but also traffic is growing....amazingly!
I flew yesterday BRU-MAD-OVD and MAD's traffic was a real chaos:
-Most flights were delayed for 30min or even more due to airport congestion (except mine  Smile)
-A plane landing every 20-30 sec!
-A plane taking off every 30 sec!
I was absolutely amazed of that! There were 13 planes waiting for taking-off before of our MD-87!
Maybe this situation is familiar to you, but I have never seen that congestion at MAD!
In addition, I saw a korean Air 744! Does Korean Air fly Madrid-Seoul regular?
Thanks for your help!
Regards
Emilio
Has decidido puntualidad, has decidido Iberia ;)
 
767-332ER
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RE: MAD-Barajas 25% Bigger As LHR From 2006 Onwards!

Thu Mar 24, 2005 9:34 pm

IberiaN,

You should come to ATL, where we have planes landing about that rate (20-30secs or less) not using only one runway...
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IBERIA747
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RE: MAD-Barajas 25% Bigger As LHR From 2006 Onwards!

Thu Mar 24, 2005 9:48 pm

Well Emilio, it's true that MAD is always congested lately, but yesterday things could be easily worse due to some storms in the area and to the traffic increase because of the easter holiday's "operación salida". Many extra flights have been scheduled for these days. Ohh and there were also some heavy storms in many other parts of Spain yesterday...maybe some of those places were the final destination for some of the delayed flights, so that would also help to explain the situation.

About the 13 aircraft in line for take off...I've had up to 15 in front of me...and have seen up to 18 at the same time waiting for T/O at Rwy 36L. Don't forget that MAD has an average of about 1100 daily ops in just 2 rwys.

This will be soon solved...new runways will be open next month (april 24th), and we will start seeing parallel take offs/landings at Barajas.

As has been said before, even though MAD won't reach it max utilisation before 2025 (that's just a forecast), the full capacity of up to 70 million pax will be available from early next year...the opening of the new runways is the first step, and the traffic delays will probably disappear from next month.

Btw, yes...Korean Air is flying Seoul-Madrid-Seoul twice per week on a 744.

[Edited 2005-03-24 14:20:54]
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Arcano
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RE: MAD-Barajas 25% Bigger As LHR From 2006 Onwards!

Thu Mar 24, 2005 10:50 pm

I think the fact that Spain has become the second most popular destination of the world (after France) has something to fo in the figures...

Good for Madrid, one of the best cities I ever visited. Hope the new Barajas will make justice to such a city, nothinh like the current Barajas, that really really sucks...

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cornish
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RE: MAD-Barajas 25% Bigger As LHR From 2006 Onwards!

Thu Mar 24, 2005 10:53 pm

Quoting Arcano (Reply 48):
think the fact that Spain has become the second most popular destination of the world (after France) has something to fo in the figures...

True, but you have to understand that much of that is traffic from Northern Europe flying to the beaches of the coast and the Canaries and the Baelerics - all direct and not through Madrid.

As lovely as the city is, it is still more of a business destination than a tourist one - although I would recommend it  Smile
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