flydc10
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Toronto-Delhi Nonstop Possible?

Tue Mar 22, 2005 7:36 am

Helo

I was wondering is it possible to fly nonstop with an a343 from toronto to delhi in india, without any payload restrictions

Regards

Flydc10
vivan nuestras aerolineas nacionales
 
gigneil
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RE: Toronto-Delhi Nonstop Possible?

Tue Mar 22, 2005 7:43 am

I would think it would be possible, but AC has apparently had some trouble with it.

6297nm is not very far.

N
 
FLYACYYZ
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RE: Toronto-Delhi Nonstop Possible?

Tue Mar 22, 2005 8:00 am

AC054 flies daily YYZ/DEL without payload restrictions. The challenge is the westbound sector AC055, which has a routine passenger load restriction to avoid last years unpopular practice of tech-stopping at ARN. Don't have the exact number, but the aircraft which can carry 282 (30J/252Y), I believe is capped at 250 pax.
Above and Beyond
 
yul332LX
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RE: Toronto-Delhi Nonstop Possible?

Tue Mar 22, 2005 9:30 am

DEL-YYZ is a real nightmare for non-rev.
E volavo, volavo felice più in alto del sole, e ancora più su mentre il mondo pian piano spariva lontano laggiù ...
 
FLYACYYZ
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RE: Toronto-Delhi Nonstop Possible?

Tue Mar 22, 2005 9:32 am

DELHI anywhere is a real nightmare for non-revs.
Above and Beyond
 
B747-437B
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RE: Toronto-Delhi Nonstop Possible?

Tue Mar 22, 2005 9:36 am

Quoting FLYACYYZ (Reply 4):
DELHI anywhere is a real nightmare for non-revs.

With ~40 daily flights on the Delhi to Mumbai route nowadays between AI/IC/9W/S2/DN, I'd say that one route might just be an exception to your rule!  Wink
"The A340-300 may boast a long range, but the A340 is underpowered" -- Robert Milton, CEO - Air Canada
 
CPH-R
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RE: Toronto-Delhi Nonstop Possible?

Tue Mar 22, 2005 9:38 am

Well, that depends on the wx I suppose - we've heard our fair share of horror stories re: DEL & fog :P

Is AC still prohibited from overflying Russian territory?
 
yul332LX
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RE: Toronto-Delhi Nonstop Possible?

Tue Mar 22, 2005 10:18 am

Quoting CPH-R (Reply 6):
Is AC still prohibited from overflying Russian territory

Nope.
E volavo, volavo felice più in alto del sole, e ancora più su mentre il mondo pian piano spariva lontano laggiù ...
 
ktachiya
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RE: Toronto-Delhi Nonstop Possible?

Tue Mar 22, 2005 4:30 pm

Quoting YUL332LX (Reply 7):
Is AC still prohibited from overflying Russian territory

Well, if this was the case, then the flights from Asia-Europe will have many difficulties.

Really? There are no payload restrictions on this? I was talking to an AC F/O while spotting because he was there (flying A340) and he said something like there are weight restrictions on the DEL-YYZ run.

Again, I might be completely wrong.
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lymanm
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RE: Toronto-Delhi Nonstop Possible?

Tue Mar 22, 2005 5:22 pm

Ktachiya -

In reply 2, FLYACYYZ mentions that there is indeed a weight restriction on AC 55, the westbound sector.
buhh bye
 
karan69
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RE: Toronto-Delhi Nonstop Possible?

Tue Mar 22, 2005 7:40 pm

Any news on when/if this sector will shift to an A345, altough some previous legs were done on the A345, when will it permanently become a route which will be carried on by the A345---which IMO should solve all payload issues
 
FLYACYYZ
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RE: Toronto-Delhi Nonstop Possible?

Tue Mar 22, 2005 9:31 pm

The 2 A345's in service are currently deployed on YYZ-HKG-YYZ daily service. During off peak periods through the winter, should the HKG frequency be reduced, the aircraft operate to DEL subject to aircraft availability. DEL saw the 345's I believe twice weekly through Dec/Jan.
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ourboeing
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RE: Toronto-Delhi Nonstop Possible?

Tue Mar 22, 2005 9:43 pm

I have flown this particular route non-stop on AC (YYZ-DEL-YYZ). Its a loooooong flight but overall saves you a lot of time. If AC can teach some customer service to their flight crews and change the aircraft type, I would fly them again.

Cheers..


OURBOEING
 
ACDC8
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RE: Toronto-Delhi Nonstop Possible?

Tue Mar 22, 2005 9:44 pm

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Canada3000 fly non-stop between YYZ and DEL with an A340-313X? Or was their a tech stop on the way?
A Grumpy German Is A Sauerkraut
 
ktachiya
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RE: Toronto-Delhi Nonstop Possible?

Wed Mar 23, 2005 2:49 am

Quoting ACDC8 (Reply 13):
Canada3000 fly non-stop between YYZ and DEL with an A340-313X?

Are you sure? Did Canada3000 have A340? I thought they only had A330's.
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sebring
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RE: Toronto-Delhi Nonstop Possible?

Wed Mar 23, 2005 3:07 am

Air Canada's new widebody order will be announced shortly - within the next eight weeks and maybe sooner - and that will clarify a lot about how the fleet will be deployed. AC is looking at growth opportunities to China (YYZ-PVG), to India (YYZ-BOM) and more frequencies or larger aircraft on some existing routes. In those two instances, bilateral negotiations currently under way would have to sanction what AC is hoping to do. The aircraft order will either bring in a lot of A340-600HGWs, which have a longer range than the 343 and would be able to do YYZ-DEL in either direction without payload penalities, or will bring in Boeing 777s, probably the 777-300ER and 777-200LR. In the airline's just released annual report, it says that relying on used aircraft for growth is no longer feasible, and the growth widebodies it needs will come from the pending order.

It would be better to wait for that order to be announced before speculating on AC's capability on any given long-haul international route.
 
Jean Leloup
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RE: Toronto-Delhi Nonstop Possible?

Wed Mar 23, 2005 3:08 am

ACDC8,

My memory is foggy about what use C3000 got out of their (one) A340. I believe nonstops both ways were planned, but I seem to remember something about tech stops at SNN or something on the DEL-YYZ route. However, I might be confused, because I think that C3000 briefly used their A330's on one-stop routes to Iindia, as well. Stopping IN LGW, I think, but I'm not 100% sure.

So it could be that their A340 was flying non-stop both ways (no cargo, perhaps?), and that the stops were just for the A330's. However, one thing that should be pointed out is that either way, C3000 only had their A340 for about 6 weeks before they went belly-up. So in any case, they did not get much experience on these routes.

I'm confident that someone will correct me on my erros above. Big grin


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FLYACYYZ
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RE: Toronto-Delhi Nonstop Possible?

Wed Mar 23, 2005 7:44 am

Quoting Ourboeing (Reply 12):
If AC can teach some customer service to their flight crews and change the aircraft type, I would fly them again

As far as the aircraft type goes, once the fleet is equipped with enhanced IFE (it's on the way), it will certainly upgrade the in-flight experience.

Always laugh at these blanket statements regarding crews and customer service. It's all in the chemistry. You put 14 people together and you have the good, the bad, the old, the young on most carriers. Proud to say most of my customers disembark with praise and thanks, and often follow up letters. How many times have you flown the route or the airline that you can make such a generalized and blanket statement??
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yyz717
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RE: Toronto-Delhi Nonstop Possible?

Wed Mar 23, 2005 8:58 am

Quoting Jean Leloup (Reply 16):
My memory is foggy about what use C3000 got out of their (one) A340. I believe nonstops both ways were planned, but I seem to remember something about tech stops at SNN or something on the DEL-YYZ route. However, I might be confused, because I think that C3000 briefly used their A330's on one-stop routes to Iindia, as well. Stopping IN LGW, I think, but I'm not 100% sure.

So it could be that their A340 was flying non-stop both ways (no cargo, perhaps?), and that the stops were just for the A330's.

If memory serves Adam, C3 planned a weekly YYZ-DEL and YVR-DEL with the 343, and a weekly YYZ-LGW-BOM with the 332. The 332 BOM service did not commence. The YYZ-DEL service did commence in Oct 2001. I recall the CDG refueling was planned if needed but the flight was nonstop at least once. Anyway, C3 collapsed weeks later. Angus Kinnear (CEO) was on the initial flight from YYZ.

That C3 343 now flies with Air Tahiti Nui. My parents flew with ATN in 2003 and flew that specific aircraft which still had C3 interior.
I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
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yyz717
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RE: Toronto-Delhi Nonstop Possible?

Wed Mar 23, 2005 9:17 am

Quoting FLYACYYZ (Reply 17):
Always laugh at these blanket statements regarding crews and customer service. It's all in the chemistry. You put 14 people together and you have the good, the bad, the old, the young on most carriers. Proud to say most of my customers disembark with praise and thanks, and often follow up letters.

I agree with Rod here. Despite my dismay with the financial and mgmt problems at AC, I find their inflight service superb. I have never witnessed an unpleasant FA.
I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
B747-437B
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RE: Toronto-Delhi Nonstop Possible?

Wed Mar 23, 2005 9:21 am

Quoting Yyz717 (Reply 19):
I find their inflight service superb

I'll go one step further and state that AC's entire inflight product will be the best in the world, bar none, once the planned refurbishment of the fleet is completed. They have done a fantastic job redeveloping that product and should rightly be proud of it.
"The A340-300 may boast a long range, but the A340 is underpowered" -- Robert Milton, CEO - Air Canada
 
aseem
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RE: Toronto-Delhi Nonstop Possible?

Wed Mar 23, 2005 9:58 am

I happen to be fortunate enough to fly AC's A345 on AC055 DEL-YYZ Jan 05. It was their C-GKOL.

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Believe me their A343 are a big pain for such a long flight, I was happy I got A345 on return leg.
As somebody pointed out, AC need to improve their customer service. Gentleman sitting next to me was promptly told they have just Beer and Wine, thankfully he was experienced enough to bring his own Vodka. One of the lavatory was sealed for whatever reason and F/A's were having hard time with IFE.
No complains about it being non-stop though. I'm sure it will remain AC's cash cow.
rgds
Aseem

[Edited 2005-03-23 01:58:55]

[Edited 2005-03-23 02:00:24]

[Edited 2005-03-23 02:00:51]
ala re ala, VT-ALA ala
 
dalecary
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RE: Toronto-Delhi Nonstop Possible?

Wed Mar 23, 2005 10:14 am

As Sebring suggested,

AC seems to be on the verge of embracing several ULH routes to Australia,China and India. This was reported in this week's FI. FI actually stated the order was b/w 345 and 772LR, with a need for around 8 frames(although this was not confirmed by the airline). The order has long been touted for a Q2 2005 announcement and would seem to be between 787/772LR/773ER and 350/345/346HGW.
I believe Boeing has offered to buyback all AC's Airbus WB fleet(333,343,345) in a bid to win the whole order. This has not been officially announced but has been mentioned on the Orders forum.
 
Mark_D.
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RE: Toronto-Delhi Nonstop Possible?

Wed Mar 23, 2005 12:13 pm

Yyz717-- I have never witnessed an unpleasant [AC] FA.

Never ever? Really?!

I have! (well not that unpleasant, but more just overly nonchalant or preoccupied with something else, or what-have-you).

The situation does seem to have gotten better in that regard ever since the restructuring effort, though.

B747-437B once the planned refurbishment of the fleet is completed.

Yeah definitely. I recently talked with two Glasgow-university-attending-but-round-the-world-traveling-during-six-months-time-off-in-the-meantime Brisbaner lads who flew into YVR on AC and were none too pleased with the shape of the plane's interior. They did enjoy their WestJet subsequent YYC-YUL flight instead though, particularly since the plane was one with the LiveTV screens installed and running.
 
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yyz717
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RE: Toronto-Delhi Nonstop Possible?

Wed Mar 23, 2005 12:38 pm

Quoting Dalecary (Reply 22):
FI actually stated the order was b/w 345 and 772LR, with a need for around 8 frames(although this was not confirmed by the airline). The order has long been touted for a Q2 2005 announcement and would seem to be between 787/772LR/773ER and 350/345/346HGW.
I believe Boeing has offered to buyback all AC's Airbus WB fleet(333,343,345) in a bid to win the whole order.

That would be a huge coup for Boeing. To say the least.

Quoting Mark_D. (Reply 23):
Yyz717-- I have never witnessed an unpleasant [AC] FA.

Never ever? Really?!

I have! (well not that unpleasant, but more just overly nonchalant or preoccupied with something else, or what-have-you).

Not on AC. How's the blow-up doll thing coming along?  Smile
I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
gigneil
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RE: Toronto-Delhi Nonstop Possible?

Wed Mar 23, 2005 1:10 pm

Quoting Yyz717 (Reply 24):
That would be a huge coup for Boeing. To say the least.

Dunno how huge it'd be... AC's 333 and 343 fleets aren't tiny. They might have a hard time placing those aircraft again.

N
 
dalecary
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RE: Toronto-Delhi Nonstop Possible?

Wed Mar 23, 2005 1:14 pm

Here's the quote from the "Orders" forum.

AC doesn't seem too far away from announcing the winner of their
A330, A340 and B767 replacement contest.

From about two weeks ago I heard from sources that Airbus is offering
a generous line of credit to AC; whilst Boeing is offering to take
back the AC A330s and A340s.
 
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yyz717
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RE: Toronto-Delhi Nonstop Possible?

Wed Mar 23, 2005 2:45 pm

Quoting Gigneil (Reply 25):
Quoting Yyz717 (Reply 24):
That would be a huge coup for Boeing. To say the least.

Dunno how huge it'd be... AC's 333 and 343 fleets aren't tiny. They might have a hard time placing those aircraft again.

N

The current AC 333/343/345 fleet is 21 aircraft (give or take 1 -- the 343 fleet is fluid  Smile), but I'm thinking of a possible 777/787 joint order, which could reach 75 firm. I can't imagine Boeing securing a 777 rollover order of the 333/340 fleet without a combined 787 order.
I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
lh477
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RE: Toronto-Delhi Nonstop Possible?

Thu Mar 24, 2005 12:16 am

I'll go one step further and state that AC's entire inflight product will be the best in the world, bar none, once the planned refurbishment of the fleet is completed. They have done a fantastic job redeveloping that product and should rightly be proud of it.

I too share the same feeling.....I believe they have the best product in North America....Now only if they could start YYZ-BOM....It would make traveling for some of us easier.....
Come on you gunners......!!!!!
 
gigneil
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RE: Toronto-Delhi Nonstop Possible?

Thu Mar 24, 2005 12:23 am

Quoting Yyz717 (Reply 27):
I'm thinking of a possible 777/787 joint order, which could reach 75 firm.

We're passing ships. I was referring to Boeing taking the A330/340 fleet in exchange.

Boeing will have a hard time placing those aircraft with secondhand consumers.

N
 
B747-437B
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RE: Toronto-Delhi Nonstop Possible?

Thu Mar 24, 2005 12:32 am

Quoting Gigneil (Reply 29):
Boeing will have a hard time placing those aircraft with secondhand consumers

Don't be so sure. Boeing can flip those over to some airlines in India who are chomping at the bit for ANY widebody lift.
"The A340-300 may boast a long range, but the A340 is underpowered" -- Robert Milton, CEO - Air Canada
 
sebring
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RE: Toronto-Delhi Nonstop Possible?

Thu Mar 24, 2005 12:57 am

Air Canada cannot find a decent A340-300 to lease this year beyond one that GECAS scrounged for them off Biwi if I recall, and there are no 330-300s on the market, period. In its Annual Report documentation, filed on Friday, the airline says that widebody lease rates for used aircraft have risen 30% since AC renegotiated its leases under bankruptcy protection in 2003. The market is exceedingly tight - even good quality, well-priced 763s are few and far between - and any third party would have no difficulty whatsoever remarketing AC's planes. The Annual Report says, specifically, that the airline can no longer look to the used market to get growth lift. That obviously tells you how tight the used market has become.

Also, keep in mind three more things:

1. AC renegotiated its leases to what were then market rates, so by current standards, some of those leases are charging below-market rates, which makes the aircraft easy to remarket as a sublease. There is a good chance that a lessor like GECAS would be happy to cancel those leases as part of a complete widebody package. It might even help with particularly attractive financing just to get out of the current leases and take back those planes.

2. GECAS' parent company has a big potential gain from AC's purchase of Boeing in particular, since it would mean a lot of engine orders for GE-90s. As we know, GE is the sole mandatee for the 777-300ER and 777-200LR, whereas the competing Airbus models use RR Trents, if I am not mistaken.

3. AC has a first rate maintenance reputation, so these planes have been well-maintained.

[Edited 2005-03-23 17:32:51]
 
sebring
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RE: Toronto-Delhi Nonstop Possible?

Thu Mar 24, 2005 1:22 am

Quoting Dalecary (Reply 22):



Quoting Dalecary (Reply 22):
As Sebring suggested,

AC seems to be on the verge of embracing several ULH routes to Australia,China and India. This was reported in this week's FI. FI actually stated the order was b/w 345 and 772LR, with a need for around 8 frames(although this was not confirmed by the airline). The order has long been touted for a Q2 2005 announcement and would seem to be between 787/772LR/773ER and 350/345/346HGW.
I believe Boeing has offered to buyback all AC's Airbus WB fleet(333,343,345) in a bid to win the whole order. This has not been officially announced but has been mentioned on the Orders forum.

Actually, this was AC's RFP to both companies. AC wants to get rid of its 343s, for a number of reasons - some technical, some capacity-based - that have been debated for eons on a.net. Some of its 343s now are a decade old, which is not ancient, but still leaves room for a rethink as part of a bigger deal. AC really likes the new A346HGW because it is a little larger than the 343 - AC misses having a 325-seater on routes like Montreal-Paris, Toronto-London, Toronto-Frankfurt and Vancouver-Tokyo and could even use one on routes like Vancouver-Sydney and Toronto-Delhi during the North American winter schedule. The 346HGW, which debuts this year, has more power and better range than the 343 and can do almost anything the airline's two 345s are likely to do, since AC isn't looking at doing any 18-hour flights for a combination of market and union reasons. So AC basically told Airbus, quote us on a fleet of 346s that would replace all of our 343s, which you will take off our hands and remarket. Then throw in another few 346s for expansion. AC would keep the 333s which are all under five years old and are very solid aircraft that AC seems happy with. That's AC's Airbus scenario. Oh, it would include financing to refurbish the 767 fleet until the 358s were delivered in 2010 and beyond.

The Boeing scenario obviously ends with the 788 replacing all 767s over several years beginning in 2010. The front end of the deal would require Boeing to finance the refurbishing of 763s and supply 777-300ERS to give AC that 325 seat plane. Then it gets a bit murky. Does AC want 777-200ERs or 777-200LRs for the balance of the order, or a combination of both. Would it retain the 333 fleet rather than go all Boeing immediately, meaning it would take 200LRs for global expansion, but not 200ERs? This is where the negotiations may have some flex.

The rumors have been that this is now Boeing's order to lose. However, I was cautionned this week that Milton loves to play camel-trader with Airbus because they will wheel and deal more under pressure. So rumors favoring Boeing may be aimed ultimately at the boys in Toulouse to squeeze that old lemon one more time.

[Edited 2005-03-23 17:37:57]
 
B747-437B
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RE: Toronto-Delhi Nonstop Possible?

Thu Mar 24, 2005 1:53 am

Quoting Sebring (Reply 32):
rumors have been that this is now Boeing's order to lose

Even Boeing believes they have the order sewn up for all practical purposes, but they have made the same mistake with Milton before and paid for it dearly.

Whatever happens, the future of the Airbus 340-300 at Air Canada is not particularly rosy.
"The A340-300 may boast a long range, but the A340 is underpowered" -- Robert Milton, CEO - Air Canada
 
Rj111
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RE: Toronto-Delhi Nonstop Possible?

Thu Mar 24, 2005 3:08 am

I only have intuition to back this up but AC ordering a 777 just seems rediculous to me.

[Edited 2005-03-23 19:10:10]
 
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yyz717
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RE: Toronto-Delhi Nonstop Possible?

Thu Mar 24, 2005 3:34 am

Quoting Sebring (Reply 32):
Actually, this was AC's RFP to both companies. AC wants to get rid of its 343s, for a number of reasons - some technical, some capacity-based - that have been debated for eons on a.net. Some of its 343s now are a decade old, which is not ancient, but still leaves room for a rethink as part of a bigger deal. AC really likes the new A346HGW because it is a little larger than the 343 - AC misses having a 325-seater on routes like Montreal-Paris, Toronto-London, Toronto-Frankfurt and Vancouver-Tokyo and could even use one on routes like Vancouver-Sydney and Toronto-Delhi during the North American winter schedule. The 346HGW, which debuts this year, has more power and better range than the 343 and can do almost anything the airline's two 345s are likely to do, since AC isn't looking at doing any 18-hour flights for a combination of market and union reasons. So AC basically told Airbus, quote us on a fleet of 346s that would replace all of our 343s, which you will take off our hands and remarket. Then throw in another few 346s for expansion. AC would keep the 333s which are all under five years old and are very solid aircraft that AC seems happy with. That's AC's Airbus scenario. Oh, it would include financing to refurbish the 767 fleet until the 358s were delivered in 2010 and beyond.

The Boeing scenario obviously ends with the 788 replacing all 767s over several years beginning in 2010. The front end of the deal would require Boeing to finance the refurbishing of 763s and supply 777-300ERS to give AC that 325 seat plane. Then it gets a bit murky. Does AC want 777-200ERs or 777-200LRs for the balance of the order, or a combination of both. Would it retain the 333 fleet rather than go all Boeing immediately, meaning it would take 200LRs for global expansion, but not 200ERs? This is where the negotiations may have some flex.

Good summary Sebring! Makes sense. Although, I am concerned about AC wanting to repl the 343 fleet en masse with the larger and more capable 346HGW. It seems AC may be falling back into a market share/capacity game. If the 343 fleet is truly short of capacity, then raise air fares. A partial replacement of the 343 fleet with 346HGW's makes more sense.

Quoting B747-437B (Reply 33):
Whatever happens, the future of the Airbus 340-300 at Air Canada is not particularly rosy.

Well, it's unlikely AC will order any more new-build 343's, but the 343 fleet could remain in service for 10+ years with all capacity expansion covered by new 345/346/333 aircraft etc. There is really no need to replace the 343 fleet.

Quoting RJ111 (Reply 34):
I only have intuition to back this up but AC ordering a 777 just seems rediculous to me.

Yeah, I tend to agree with you. A 777 order would result in a horribly mixed fleet for AC for years to come as the 333/340 fleet is reduced. I also cannot see the 772 being moire efficient than the 333 on the current 333 routes (which are virtually all trans-atlantic). The 333 is a very efficient long haul (albeit for routes <5500 nm) aircraft.
I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: Toronto-Delhi Nonstop Possible?

Thu Mar 24, 2005 5:21 am

Quoting Yyz717 (Reply 35):
I also cannot see the 772 being moire efficient than the 333 on the current 333 routes (which are virtually all trans-atlantic). The 333 is a very efficient long haul (albeit for routes <5500 nm) aircraft.

Depends on what they'd want it for:
On the lower end of the operating spectrum (few pax, fewer cargo), the lighter A333 would be the more efficient.

On a route with higher pax demand and especially a demand for more cargo, the heavier T7's stronger performance capability may stimulate sufficient revenue to render it the most profitable/efficient on the routing.
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
yul332LX
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RE: Toronto-Delhi Nonstop Possible?

Thu Mar 24, 2005 6:04 am

Quoting Yyz717 (Reply 35):
I also cannot see the 772 being moire efficient than the 333 on the current 333 routes (which are virtually all trans-atlantic). The 333 is a very efficient long haul (albeit for routes <5500 nm) aircraft

You're absolutely right. For a 3000nm flight, the 333 has an TOC advantage of 16% over the T7 as per the ATA figures.
E volavo, volavo felice più in alto del sole, e ancora più su mentre il mondo pian piano spariva lontano laggiù ...
 
sebring
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RE: Toronto-Delhi Nonstop Possible?

Thu Mar 24, 2005 6:20 am

Quoting Yyz717 (Reply 35):
Good summary Sebring! Makes sense. Although, I am concerned about AC wanting to repl the 343 fleet en masse with the larger and more capable 346HGW. It seems AC may be falling back into a market share/capacity game. If the 343 fleet is truly short of capacity, then raise air fares. A partial replacement of the 343 fleet with 346HGW's makes more sense.

I understand what you are saying, but there are a number of issues behind this. First, AC has a few routes where it operates multiple frequencies to try to get to 350-400 seats. For example, in the summer, it has been operating double daily YUL-LHR, YUL-FRA and YUL-CDG, YYZ-FRA, YYZ-LHR, YVR-LHR... And in some cases, like YVR-SEL and YVR-NRT, where there is one flight a day even in summer, the lack of a larger aircraft has hurt. The business has been there, the yields have been good, but the seats weren't. If AC went for a significant number of either A346HGW or 777-300ERs, you can bet it will phase out the oldest and least efficient 767s that are helping provide this double daily and multi-frequency operations. There would be a net cost and efficiency gain, savings on labor, nav and landing fees, and the backend order of the 788 or 358 would be a few fins smaller.

Second consideration: Both the Canada-China and Canada-India bilaterals are being re-negotiated right now. The result will be new opportunities to tap into the fastest growing markets in the world. And with the China situation, where the new tourism agreement takes effect next year, it is reasonable to assume at the very least AC will be able to sustain a larger aircraft, year-round, on one or two of its three current China routes. You can also envision a Toronto-Shanghai route and maybe a Vancouver-Guangzhou route. Some of these services might start with a 763 in winter, but would require a larger aircraft in summer.

Were AC to go all 346 or all 777300ER (or even a combination of 777 derivatives ), AC would likely end up with one engine maker (GE for Boeing, RR Trents for Airbus). Right now, the 343s have GE engines, and the 345s and 333s have Trents.

Also, there are scheduling and maintenance efficiencies if you have one aircraft type instead of the current three (330, 343, 345). All planes would have the same interior, the same range, cargo capacity, etc., so if AC experienced a mechanical problem dispatching a plane, it would be able to take any incoming plane and just send it out again as a replacement.

The same logic applies to replacing the 767 fleet with all of its differences, different engines, different cabin interiors and just have all 788s or all 358s.

So I don't think AC is on a capacity/market share binge at all. If it ordered the 783 for use inside North America, I would say, maybe, AC is backsliding into that mentality. But I think the thing AC wants is a more uniform and efficient fleet and one that will support its entry into new markets. Getting bigger aircraft on some routes is not so much a market share concern as it is an efficiency question. Why fly five times a day between LHR-YYZ if three flights will do? Why fly double daily YUL-LHR if one flight will do (that would actually reduce AC seats on that route, but lower costs significantly)? And if you can't get more slots at Narita, which nobody can, why not fly a plane there that has another 50 seats? Surely that's not a market share grab as the Japanese carriers are hardly present in the nonstop Japan-Canada market.
 
dalecary
Posts: 834
Joined: Tue Jan 18, 2000 10:28 am

RE: Toronto-Delhi Nonstop Possible?

Thu Mar 24, 2005 6:48 am

Quoting Sebring (Reply 32):
The rumors have been that this is now Boeing's order to lose. However, I was cautionned this week that Milton loves to play camel-trader with Airbus because they will wheel and deal more under pressure. So rumors favoring Boeing may be aimed ultimately at the boys in Toulouse to squeeze that old lemon one more time.

That's very true Sebring. But I think there is ample evidence that the new aggressive Boeing marketing/sales team is doing all they can to price match with Airbus. Look at yesterday's 20+20 737NG commitment from SALE. That was a shock to me and clear evidence Boeing are more aggressive on 737NG pricing,at least. We will really find out how aggressive they are later this year with at least 4 huge WB orders to be decided: AC,AI,QF and CX.
I really think AC wants the 787. If it's a winner take all contest as you suggest, then the 777 has to be a big show.
 
airbusfanyyz
Posts: 1410
Joined: Tue Oct 29, 2002 1:01 am

RE: Toronto-Delhi Nonstop Possible?

Thu Mar 24, 2005 11:18 am

Some very interesting points have been raised here and makes for very interesting reading. My own personal opinion is that AC will probably make a split order much like the Embraer/Bombardier order for Regional Jets.
I would love to see a fleet of AC 777s at YYZ in the near future.
My  twocents 

Cheers,
Kaz