Pe@rson
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Delta From JFK To Europe

Thu Mar 24, 2005 3:15 am

How is DL performing on all its European routes from JFK in terms of profits, yields and loads? Which is the best-performing and worse-performing route?
"Everyone writing for the Telegraph knows that the way to grab eyeballs is with Ryanair and/or sex."
 
B742
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RE: Delta From JFK To Europe

Thu Mar 24, 2005 3:35 am

Will DL ever fly from JFK to the UK?

Rob!
 
Pe@rson
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RE: Delta From JFK To Europe

Thu Mar 24, 2005 3:38 am

Didn't DL once fly JFK-MAN?
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DAL767400ER
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RE: Delta From JFK To Europe

Thu Mar 24, 2005 4:03 am

Quoting Pe@rson (Reply 2):
Didn't DL once fly JFK-MAN?

Yes, with a 763 that routed BOS-JFK-MAN and back.
On the topic, while I don't have access to inside DL data, Delta's loadfactor to Europe is very good, and its European routes are one of the things that keep DL afloat. Average off-season loads are over 70%, and during high-season in the summer, average loads are easily above 80%. Yields are definitely good, especially on those routes where DL has a monopoly (NCE, VCE, BCN). Same goes for routes from ATL.
 
Pe@rson
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RE: Delta From JFK To Europe

Thu Mar 24, 2005 4:12 am

Its business-class fares during the summer (I based the prices on 30th July out, 6th August back) are pretty well priced, such as between $2,300 and $2,600 to most destinations, such as AMS, SVO, BRU, FRA, MXP, NCE, BCN, IST and CDG; nearly $3,650 to ATH; and nearly $5,650 to VCE and FCO. Does anyone know how well its business-class seats sell?

Needless to say, a lot of its economy-class seats (its 'deeply discounted' coach seats) sell during the summer for over $1,000 - normally between $1,000 and $1,300, although some, depending on the dates, can fall as low as $450.

[Edited 2005-03-23 20:22:05]
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B4REAL
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RE: Delta From JFK To Europe

Thu Mar 24, 2005 5:05 am

Quoting B742 (Reply 1):
Will DL ever fly from JFK to the UK?

If BII dies and DL can get into LHR, I would bet my left one that we would see JFK-LHR on DL
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Pe@rson
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RE: Delta From JFK To Europe

Thu Mar 24, 2005 5:08 am

Didn't DL serve DEL via either CDG or FRA? DL now serves both MAA and BOM via CDG. What is the likelihood of a one-stop service from JFK to DEL recommencing? The demand is evidently there. I guess the issue is permission.
"Everyone writing for the Telegraph knows that the way to grab eyeballs is with Ryanair and/or sex."
 
B742
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RE: Delta From JFK To Europe

Thu Mar 24, 2005 5:13 am

B4real, if who dies?


Is DL looking at creating any new long haul JFK routes?

Rob!
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: Delta From JFK To Europe

Thu Mar 24, 2005 5:15 am

Quoting B742 (Reply 7):
B4real, if who dies?

He's talking about the Bermuda-II aviation bilateral... which is what prevents DL et al from serving LHR.
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
B742
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RE: Delta From JFK To Europe

Thu Mar 24, 2005 5:18 am

Oh right, for a minute I thought he ment BA!!  Silly

If AA or UA was to pull out of LHR would that mean that DL, US, CO and NW could apply for LHR slots?

Rob!
 
B4REAL
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RE: Delta From JFK To Europe

Thu Mar 24, 2005 5:20 am

Quoting B742 (Reply 7):
Is DL looking at creating any new long haul JFK routes?

They are starting JFK-TXL this year (well restarting from a while back...)

I´d to see JFK-ARN return.

Welcome back ConcordeBoy
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DAL767400ER
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RE: Delta From JFK To Europe

Thu Mar 24, 2005 5:23 am

Quoting Pe@rson (Reply 6):
Didn't DL serve DEL via either CDG or FRA?

Yes, via FRA, from the PA takeover until they dropped the FRA hub in 1997. DL had plans to relaunch the flight in 2000 from FRA, but opted to focus its India operation on CDG by moving the BOM flight there, and instead of flying to DEL themselves opted to codeshare on AF metal.

Quoting Pe@rson (Reply 6):
What is the likelihood of a one-stop service from JFK to DEL recommencing?

The chance has gotten bigger ever since AF upped their schedule on CDG-BOM instead of continuing mostly on DL, and DL might apply for CDG-BOM as a "counteraction". And I definitely hope so. Delta's loads to BOM are easily above 90%, if not even above 95%, and yields are good. Although the competition (Jet Airways) is growing.

Quoting B742 (Reply 7):
Is DL looking at creating any new long haul JFK routes?

DL still has to reopen a lot of routes they dropped from JFK, like DUB/SNN, MAN, MUC, STR or HAM  Wink . But so far only the return to TXL is official.

Quoting B742 (Reply 9):
If AA or UA was to pull out of LHR would that mean that DL, US, CO and NW could apply for LHR slots?

It would probably be more of a "Who makes the highest offer?"-auction, unless either of the 4 teakes over AA or BA.
 
Pe@rson
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RE: Delta From JFK To Europe

Thu Mar 24, 2005 5:27 am

Needless to say, the demand between NYC and DEL must surely be there. Do you think DL would route to DEL via CDG (as with BOM and MAA) or via, say, FRA as previously?

Does DL have full rights (passenger and cargo) between CDG and BOM and MAA and vice-versa? I presume it does.
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B4REAL
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RE: Delta From JFK To Europe

Thu Mar 24, 2005 5:31 am

Quoting B742 (Reply 9):
If AA or UA was to pull out of LHR would that mean that DL, US, CO and NW could apply for LHR slots?

By the simple falter of AA or UA, I would have to say no, DL would not get rights to LHR. I think Bermuda-II would have to be reissued (Bermuda-III or something) to explicity allow additional carriers.

Anyone know for sure. I gave a few minutes looking for Bermula-II verbage an could not find it.
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DAL767400ER
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RE: Delta From JFK To Europe

Thu Mar 24, 2005 5:32 am

Quoting Pe@rson (Reply 12):
Do you think DL would route to DEL via CDG (as with BOM and MAA) or via, say, FRA as previously?

Definitely through CDG. Even if AF already flies that route, CDG still offers an enormous amount of feed. Service via FRA might only be a long term option, like the second seasonal BOM flight DL did this winter.

Quoting Pe@rson (Reply 12):
Does DL have full rights (passenger and cargo) between CDG and BOM and MAA and vice-versa? I presume it does.

Yes, full 5th freedom rights between CDG and BOM/MAA. Same goes for FRA-BOM when that flight operates. Nonetheless, most traffic is coming from the US (JFK, CVG, ATL especially).
 
Pe@rson
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RE: Delta From JFK To Europe

Thu Mar 24, 2005 6:04 am

Quoting DAL767400ER (Reply 14):
Definitely through CDG.

So DL would operate three daily flights between JFK and CDG.
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L410Turbolet
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RE: Delta From JFK To Europe

Thu Mar 24, 2005 6:23 am

Back in the 1990s DL operated feeder flights FRA-PRG-WAW. You could buy i.e. PRG-FRA ticket only no problem. Does anyone know on what legal grounds these flights between "third" countries were possible?

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Aeroflot777
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RE: Delta From JFK To Europe

Thu Mar 24, 2005 6:34 am

I fly DL on the JFK-SVO route regularly, and I love the service, which probably explains why I fly DL to Moscow. They offer great service for a very very good price. Sometimes even give me complimentary upgrades. So keep up the good work. Plus I guess they get good loads on Russia flights since they are adding an additional daily flight from ATL!

Aeroflot777
 
Pe@rson
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RE: Delta From JFK To Europe

Thu Mar 24, 2005 6:39 am

What are the loads like, SU772?
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Delta4eva
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RE: Delta From JFK To Europe

Thu Mar 24, 2005 6:44 am

I've been checking the flights to Europe from both JFK and ATL for the past week. Nearly all of the flights are overbooked especially coming from Europe to the US. The loads are even better over the summer. The loads are great, however I don't know how the yields are but I'm sure they are good also since Delta continues to expand over the Atlantic. I hope they start some trans-Atlantic flights from Boston soon.
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ConcordeBoy
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RE: Delta From JFK To Europe

Thu Mar 24, 2005 6:47 am

Quoting B742 (Reply 9):
If AA or UA was to pull out of LHR would that mean that DL, US, CO and NW could apply for LHR slots?

In and of itself, no. Would probably prove a catalyst for yet another attempt to annul BII though.

Quoting B4real (Reply 10):
Welcome back ConcordeBoy

Spank you, vury much.

Quoting DAL767400ER (Reply 11):
and DL might apply for CDG-BOM as a "counteraction".

They already fly the route.

Quoting DAL767400ER (Reply 11):
It would probably be more of a "Who makes the highest offer?"-auction

No it wouldn't... CO has first rights into LHR (from this side of the pond) in the event the USA/UK bilateral is adjusted, short of full open skies.
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
DAL767400ER
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RE: Delta From JFK To Europe

Thu Mar 24, 2005 6:49 am

Quoting Pe@rson (Reply 15):
So DL would operate three daily flights between JFK and CDG.

Either that, or route a flight ATL-CDG-India.

Quoting ConcordeBoy (Reply 20):
They already fly the route.

Sorry, meant CDG-DEL.

Quoting ConcordeBoy (Reply 20):
No it wouldn't... CO has first rights into LHR (from this side of the pond) in the event the USA/UK bilateral is adjusted, short of full open skies.

Why is that?
 
Pe@rson
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RE: Delta From JFK To Europe

Thu Mar 24, 2005 6:51 am

DL's yields to and from Europe seem particularly good, as is obvious, during peak summer, when virtually all airfares are over $1,000 - at 'deeply discounted' level. However, it would seem that winter, spring and even early summer flights can, depending on your destination, be $450 - probably less for winter. Naturally these are the lowest possible fares. Take a look at my business-class fare examples, above. Do not forget that DL has 'discounted' and 'flexible' economy/coach fares too.
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panamair
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RE: Delta From JFK To Europe

Thu Mar 24, 2005 7:15 am

Quoting Pe@rson (Reply 22):
DL's yields to and from Europe seem particularly good, as is obvious, during peak summer, when virtually all airfares are over $1,000 - at 'deeply discounted' level.

Those are the officially published fares. However, don't forget the discounted bulk tour operator fares (for tour groups), as well as consolidator "unpublished" fares.. which are lower than the published fares. They have quite a few of those as well - so not everyone in Y in the summer is paying over $1000...

These days, most of the JFK-Europe flights are very full but that is a reflection of the general industry trend as opposed to something specific to Delta. That being said, both JFK-CDG flights are very full because of the connections through CDG.
Both JFK-FCO and JFK-VCE do very well year-round.
JFK-NCE is weak in the winter but in the summer, there is significant high-yield Business traffic.
JFK-BCN does well because of the cruise traffic
The new JFK-TXL is very full in Y for May and parts of JUne but that is because of the low introductory Y fares they were offering...
 
Zweed
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RE: Delta From JFK To Europe

Thu Mar 24, 2005 11:33 pm

I was on JFK - AMS 1 month ago and the flight was pretty full i must say
 
su
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RE: Delta From JFK To Europe

Thu Mar 24, 2005 11:47 pm

Their Moscow flights are very good. Business and Economy are almost always full.
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LGAtoIND
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RE: Delta From JFK To Europe

Thu Mar 24, 2005 11:53 pm

Since Delta has such a large international operation out of JFK, why don't they use 757s like CO, to go from JFK to smaller European destinations. This would seem like a better idea than using the 757s to fight the low cost carriers on routes like JFK/LGA-MCO/PBI. There are many people who do not want to travel to EWR (It can take hours from Long Island in traffic) to fly. I would think that Delta could do very well with a 757 operating from JFK-MAN,LGW,LYS,ARN,MUC,DUB, etc. Any thoughts on this? Oh and before anyone complains about lack of connections at JFK, I flew Delta JFK-IND last week and saw TONS of connecting International travelers. From a Geographic standpoint, JFK is better for many people on the east coast. For example, If someone wants to fly from PHL to FCO, it would be a big waste of time to fly PHL-ATL-FCO, when flying through JFK is more direct.
 
DAL767400ER
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RE: Delta From JFK To Europe

Fri Mar 25, 2005 12:12 am

Quoting LGAtoIND (Reply 26):
Any thoughts on this?

Yes, I have been thinking about this idea before CO ever send a 757 across the pond. Some years ago, Boeing proposed launching a 752ERX, based on the C-32, which would even allow transatlantic service from ATL to all of West Europe. With that in mind, I though of all the routes that DL dropped due to low loads from JFK (ARN, DUB/SNN, MAN, LYS, LIS, ZRH, STR, MUC, CPH, HAM, OSL, HEL), and I wondered why DL never thought about deploying some 757s ex JFK, even if it were only to a limited number of cities. But they never did, and now CO is on course to kick DL from it's spot as the #1 carrier to Europe. Plus, out of the 59 763s DL has, some 48 are already being used internationally this summer, and the domestic-configured ones will be configured back for int'l ops soon, but even then, the 763s are limited to 59. DL has 120 757, with soon 48 SONG, which means 72 are still left. Plenty enough to use some of them (20) for flights to Europe and Latin America, and keep the other 52 for domestic operations. But I doubt DL will even think about that idea.
 
flymia
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RE: Delta From JFK To Europe

Fri Mar 25, 2005 8:39 am

Quoting Panamair (Reply 23):
JFK-NCE is weak in the winter but in the summer, there is significant high-yield Business traffic.

Not business traffic, but rather high-yielding "jet set" traffic. Nice is a playground for the rich, who make the service very viable.
"It was just four of us on the flight deck, trying to do our job" (Captain Al Haynes)
 
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Aeroflot777
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RE: Delta From JFK To Europe

Fri Mar 25, 2005 11:35 am

Yeah as SU said the loads to Moscow are great. The plane is usually packed on all flights regardless of season. This is great considering the Aeroflot flights on the same route are crammed as well....
 
brons2
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RE: Delta From JFK To Europe

Fri Mar 25, 2005 11:47 am

I flew DL from JFK last June, well, DFW-JFK-AMS. They flew me on a 3 hour flight to JFK on a CRJ-700 (ack) and then a ratty old 763 to AMS. Legroom and seat quality weren't great. Bins are tiny compared to the newer 777 type designs. Service was poor, flight attendants were surly. Alcohol was $4 per drink. Food service was inexorably slow. They gave me a broken cup with my wine, and then when I told them about it they looked at me like I was some drunken fool. And that was just on that particular leg, had more misadventures on the way back. NEVER AGAIN!!!

I flew NW when I went to FRA in September. Vintage DC-10 on the way there with great service (free wine and tasty food, polite flight attendants) and spanking new A333 on the way back with VOD IFE.

Flying BA in May on the 777 BWI-LHR. Looking forward to it.

Delta can sit and spin for all I care. They won't get my money again.
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Lockheed1011
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RE: Delta From JFK To Europe

Fri Mar 25, 2005 11:54 am

Brons2 ,

People like you are the ones hurting our local economy.
Take the example of the Europeans, they are proud and defend their products at all costs.
I can not agree with you in any way because Delta has an excellent product.  Wink
 
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STT757
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RE: Delta From JFK To Europe

Fri Mar 25, 2005 12:02 pm

Quoting LGAtoIND (Reply 26):
If someone wants to fly from PHL to FCO, it would be a big waste of time to fly PHL-ATL-FCO, when flying through JFK is more direct.

Hows that?.... Philadelphia is closer to Atlanta than JFK, plus JFK has paltry Domestic offerings outside Florida or California.
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B4REAL
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RE: Delta From JFK To Europe

Fri Mar 25, 2005 12:02 pm

Quoting Brons2 (Reply 30):
Service was poor, flight attendants were surly

That is subjective, and I don't believe it. I've flown DL A LOT and never had that. A lot of my travel is in economy.

Quoting Brons2 (Reply 30):
ratty old 763

I'll give you that, the DL Int'l 763 in coach is not competitive with CO/UA

Quoting Brons2 (Reply 30):
Alcohol was $4 per drink

Get used to that....

Quoting Brons2 (Reply 30):
Food service was inexorably slow

Maybe you were just really hungry. And you didn't say the food was bad, so there is a plus.

Quoting Brons2 (Reply 30):
and spanking new A333

Yes - you spoke truth here.... But, NW is not the airline to associate with 'spanking new' aircraft. All airlines, if you get them @ the right time will have 'spanking new' aircraft.

Quoting Brons2 (Reply 30):
DFW-JFK-AMS. They flew me on a 3 hour flight to JFK on a CRJ-700 (ack)

Why didn't you go DFW-ATL-AMS, you may have even had a 777 on ATL-AMS @ the time. You would probably earn more miles also.


B4REAL
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