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casinterest
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Southwest Has Charlotte In It's Sights

Thu Mar 24, 2005 4:25 am

News article

Herb visited Charlotte for a Homeland security meeting but made some pretty interesting statements.
Although not really new, it definately presents itself as opening up the realm of Charlotte being the next city that Southwest moves into. Provided they can get the slot I could see this as being the definative death blow to US Airways.

Any idea on how long it may take Southwest to move in considering new plane deliveries and Pittsburgh startup?
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qwerty
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RE: Southwest Has Charlotte In It's Sights

Thu Mar 24, 2005 4:37 am

IMO, they'd be better off heading to Columbia, S.C. first.

With Lake Norman, etc. there is a lot of population that lives North of Charlotte and closer to striking distance of GSO. So maybe heading into GSO to surround CLT might be smart.

GSO and CLT seem a lot like DAY and CVG to me.
 
ATLhomeCMH
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RE: Southwest Has Charlotte In It's Sights

Thu Mar 24, 2005 4:39 am

Quite frankly, US' deathblow was dealt long ago and their safety net of creditors will give out eventually...I wouldn't say that WN moving into Charlotte would be a "deathblow," but it wouldn't be good...that's for sure.

A good way for WN to hurt US by doing this would be to offer service from CLT on routes to cities/regions where US typically had a pretty solid presence...i.e., CLT-PHL, CLT-BWI (Washington area), Florida destinations, the Northeast.

Give people lower fare options, and they'll want to save money, local airline loyalties be damned.

...edited for spelling errors b/c i type fast...

[Edited 2005-03-23 20:41:07]
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RE: Southwest Has Charlotte In It's Sights

Thu Mar 24, 2005 4:40 am

Vultures only circle over dead or dying carrion, not the living.
 
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casinterest
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RE: Southwest Has Charlotte In It's Sights

Thu Mar 24, 2005 4:43 am

Quoting Qwerty (Reply 1):
IMO, they'd be better off heading to Columbia, S.C. first.

I think Greenville/Spartenburg would be better. Split some Atlanta and Charlotte traffic, As for GSO I still think it is too close to RDU.

Quoting ATLhomeCMH (Reply 2):
A good way for WN to hurt US by doing this would be to offer service from CLT on routes to cities/regions where US typically had a pretty solid presence...i.e., CLT-PHL, CLT-BWI (Washington area), Florida destinations, the Northeast.

I wonder though if Southwest may back off charlotte a bit and see what develops with AirTran. Airtran may do the job that Southwest wants done.
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RE: Southwest Has Charlotte In It's Sights

Thu Mar 24, 2005 4:49 am

Quoting CasInterest (Reply 4):
I think Greenville/Spartenburg would be better.

Not to sound like a homer, but I think there'd be more demand to traffic for CAE due to Fort Jackson, USC, Benedict, Allen, Columbia College, and the National Advocacy Center. While we do have DH, there's a fairly strong sentiment that WN would be a nice addition.
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doninfc
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RE: Southwest Has Charlotte In It's Sights

Thu Mar 24, 2005 5:06 am

If and when US closes up shop, there will be a tremendous hole left in the CLT market. Initially, there will only be a hand full of flights to major hubs to service a local population of almost 2 million. The remaining carriers will be scrambling with limited resources to add service. It would serve WN well to get their foot in the door now, like they've done in PIT, to take maximum advantage when the inevitable happens. The potential rewards at CLT far out weigh what can be had at GSO, GSP or CAE.
 
stlgph
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RE: Southwest Has Charlotte In It's Sights

Thu Mar 24, 2005 5:26 am

Quoting Doninfc (Reply 6):
If and when US closes up shop, there will be a tremendous hole left in the CLT market. Initially, there will only be a hand full of flights to major hubs to service a local population of almost 2 million. The remaining carriers will be scrambling with limited resources to add service. It would serve WN well to get their foot in the door now, like they've done in PIT, to take maximum advantage when the inevitable happens. The potential rewards at CLT far out weigh what can be had at GSO, GSP or CAE.

Yes but even Southwest can't jump on an entire airline's route network like that. They are going to have to make a choice. Philadelphia, Pittsburgh, Charlotte, or Washington National.

Since Southwest doesn't service Washington National, it looks likely other airlines could apply for all the slots they could get out of there. Of course, with Southwest's backing, ATA could leave Chicago Midway and Indianapolis all but entirely and move in on those slots if they could get them.
Their best best ultimately is to get as much as Philadelphia as they can. That's 8 million plus as compared to Charlotte with 2 million, and with close neighbors airport-wise.

Also, it's an interesting choice for Charlotte officials to make. Keep Southwest out and bank on the US Airways hub for selfish economic reasons, or take a chance and lobby for a gamble on Southwest to provide you with something like 2 nonstops a day to Orlando and Tampa serving as a stop over point for somewhere like....Albany.
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panam330
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RE: Southwest Has Charlotte In It's Sights

Thu Mar 24, 2005 5:27 am

Quoting CasInterest (Reply 4):
I wonder though if Southwest may back off charlotte a bit and see what develops with AirTran. Airtran may do the job that Southwest wants done.

And have AirTran take potential profits? I hardly think they're going into these markets just to see US Airways fold. They want the money- Herbie and the top brass know exactly where the money is, and that's where US Airways has it's two hubs. The only problem in regards to profitability for US is their cost structure. WN can flourish even more at the PHL and CLT hubs, as well as PIT.
 
doninfc
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RE: Southwest Has Charlotte In It's Sights

Thu Mar 24, 2005 6:30 am

stlgph: I pretty much agree with everything you said, but I wasn't thinking in terms of WN taking over US's entire route structure at CLT. More like 30-40 flights a day to some key point-to-point destinations like BWI/PHL/MDW/MCO/TPA and LAS/PHX for connecting opportunities. That would certainly help take up some of the slack and fill a lot of seats.
 
stlgph
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RE: Southwest Has Charlotte In It's Sights

Thu Mar 24, 2005 6:40 am

Quoting Doninfc (Reply 9):
stlgph: I pretty much agree with everything you said, but I wasn't thinking in terms of WN taking over US's entire route structure at CLT. More like 30-40 flights a day to some key point-to-point destinations like BWI/PHL/MDW/MCO/TPA and LAS/PHX for connecting opportunities. That would certainly help take up some of the slack and fill a lot of seats.

Don-

I hear you on your point entirely. They could probably follow my example of running flights from the north (Pittsburgh, Hartford, Albany, Providence, Manchester, Cleveland, etc.) and have them stop on the way to Ft. Lauderdale, Orlando, Tampa, New Orleans, and Houston. They could extend Phoenix and Las Vegas to Little Rock, Oklahoma City, or Tulsa out to Charlotte, or start in Charlotte and stop in either one of those three latter cities on the way out to say even Los Angeles or San Francisco. Starting with just one flight a day to from these points that's 15 flights a day you've got there already before you start even running to Chicago, Kansas City, etc.

It's probably very possible to fit in Charlotte as a stop along the way and pick up some great business. Classic Southwest strategy. But at the same time, it would still require a taking of planes here and there from the routes they are concentrating on their point to point focus they've been developing.
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gsoflyer
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RE: Southwest Has Charlotte In It's Sights

Thu Mar 24, 2005 9:56 am

Remember, like Richmond, Southwest has promised GSO.
 
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RE: Southwest Has Charlotte In It's Sights

Thu Mar 24, 2005 10:03 am

"The potential rewards at CLT far out weigh what can be had at GSO, GSP or CAE."

I am not sure about that. The polutation base in CLT is really not significantly bigger than GSO. There are more white collar jobs but just about equal in blue colalr jobs. Both have banking centers as well as centers for other industry.

With CLT you can serve other small areas like GSP, AVL and CAE easily and would maybe split GSO with RDU. With GSO you could draw from CLT, AVL and ROA along with western NC and Western VA where there are a ton of private schools and students who fly out a lot.

Who knows, it seems like a draw to me. The one things about GSO is that there are soon going to be plenty of available gates as well as GSO has the lowest landing fees in the South right now.
 
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RE: Southwest Has Charlotte In It's Sights

Thu Mar 24, 2005 10:14 am

Quoting Gsoflyer (Reply 12):
The one things about GSO is that there are soon going to be plenty of available gates as well as GSO has the lowest landing fees in the South right now.

What is the landing fees at GSO? Are they tacking on added passenger fees for the concourse addition or are they adding it to the airlines?
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DAYflyer
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RE: Southwest Has Charlotte In It's Sights

Thu Mar 24, 2005 10:33 am

Quoting Stlgph (Reply 7):
Yes but even Southwest can't jump on an entire airline's route network like that. They are going to have to make a choice. Philadelphia, Pittsburgh, Charlotte, or Washington National.

Charlotte would likely then be the choice since PIT is not that great of a market. They would need it to keep the likes of Airtran from swallowing up the entire SE USA if US closes up.
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DAYflyer
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RE: Southwest Has Charlotte In It's Sights

Thu Mar 24, 2005 10:43 am

Quoting Gsoflyer (Reply 12):
Who knows, it seems like a draw to me. The one things about GSO is that there are soon going to be plenty of available gates as well as GSO has the lowest landing fees in the South right now.

GSO Sounds like a good opportunity, but CLT is the largest city between Washington and Atlanta and has better per capita incomes, a larger industrial base and better high-tech opportunities. This is where Peidmont grew up to become a pretty powerful little airline before US gobbled them up.

I bet if Airtran or SouthWest could move in there, the fares would plummet overnight, driving US to it's final resting place in the history pages of defunct carriers. For this very reason SouthWest will go into CLT with a vengence if afforded the chance. Plus, they need a better southeast hub presence to be a big thorn in Airtran's side. It would also spoil the dream of FL to be the next EA.
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gsoflyer
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RE: Southwest Has Charlotte In It's Sights

Thu Mar 24, 2005 10:51 am

Quoting ERJ170 (Reply 13):
What is the landing fees at GSO? Are they tacking on added passenger fees for the concourse addition or are they adding it to the airlines?

I am not sure. I talked to someone at the airport three weeks ago when I flew out. Apparently the FAA, NC DOT and Greensboro/High Point fund pretty much everything there without piggy backing extra fees on to the customers.

Charlotte being the largest area between Washington and Atlanta is true. But looking at the south as a whole, outside of Florida. Atlanta, Norfolk, Raleigh, Greensboro, Charlotte and Nashville are the largest areas by far. Greensboro is by far the underserved airport of all the majors in the South.
 
cltguy
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RE: Southwest Has Charlotte In It's Sights

Thu Mar 24, 2005 10:57 am

Logistics question:

Just about all 85 Gates at CLT are used....where would SWA go?

Certainly not Concourse A,B,C, or E. There is some gate availability in D...but those are all designed for International use. I am sure the airport charges more for those gates since they have added security and FIS.

So those in the know...where would they go?
 
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RE: Southwest Has Charlotte In It's Sights

Thu Mar 24, 2005 11:00 am

I think there is something else to think about.. with the way US Airways has itself set up now..

Southwest will not only be trying to invade US Airways, but also Air Wisconsin, Republic, and possibly Mesa.. so, with all those players on their side, will the US Group be able to defend their turf and keep WN out.. will CLT look at US as a good investment to keep WN out.. or will WN be able to come in and cause some drama..
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cltguy
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RE: Southwest Has Charlotte In It's Sights

Thu Mar 24, 2005 11:08 am

ERJ170....you got it backwards..

US is investing in CLT....CLT is not investing in US.

If SWA wants to invest in CLT...then we welcome them with welcome arms...just got to figure out where the hell to put everybody.
 
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ERJ170
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RE: Southwest Has Charlotte In It's Sights

Thu Mar 24, 2005 11:14 am

No.. I got it right.. CLT should be investing in US..

US provides over 14,000+ jobs in the CLT area.. should WN come.. how many jobs will they invest? Ohh.. let's say ~150. Should US goes under, sure.. CLT could get some of it's service back.. but how many of those jobs will be there..

Oh.. I"ll say about 600-1000 total.. CLT would be a hub for NO ONE if US leaves.. CLT would be the same as RDU, SJC, etc.. It won't be a BNA WN city.. It won't be a B6 JFK hub.. it won't be a HP LAS/PHX hub.. a hub brings big business to the airport and the city... CLT and Charlotte would be hella stupid to try and jeopardize that.. sorry, but I think it is CLT/Charlotte who should be investing in US.. and investing heavily.. jobs are hard to come by these days..

And that's all I got to say about that!
Aiming High and going far..
 
captaink
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RE: Southwest Has Charlotte In It's Sights

Thu Mar 24, 2005 11:42 am

What is it with WN and US? They are some serious opportunists CLT isn't that great of O&D is it?

Well business is business, and WN is making some good business decisions. I wish them well. I hope US can fight this.. THey aren't doing to badly ex PHL, but there are enough people to go around there, so a few airlines can coexist just fine.
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SonOfACaptain
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RE: Southwest Has Charlotte In It's Sights

Thu Mar 24, 2005 12:07 pm

I personally think that WN coming into CLT won't be THAT bad for US. If you think about, US focuses on CLT as a traditional connecting hub. The originating passengers at CLT is limited when compared to the magnitude of the operations there. CLT is also US gateway to the Caribbean, and naturally WN will not be taking away passengers there. So what I expect to see, if WN does decide to go to CLT, is US just matching the fares on the WN routes. Maybe later, we will see the GoFares go on all the routes, but for the near future they will be the response to WN.

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cltguy
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RE: Southwest Has Charlotte In It's Sights

Thu Mar 24, 2005 12:09 pm

USAirways has 6000 jobs at most based in Charlotte.

As of late there have been a number of airlines that have said they are considering making Charlotte a hub if USAirways goes under...among them are America West and Mesa.

Now, CLT does have $400M in cash sitting in the bank....and ERJ is saying that we should invest that money in a bankrupt carrier? That would be the WORST move that CLT could do.
 
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RE: Southwest Has Charlotte In It's Sights

Thu Mar 24, 2005 12:37 pm

Quoting DAYflyer (Reply 15):

I bet if Airtran or SouthWest could move in there, the fares would plummet overnight, driving US to it's final resting place in the history pages of defunct carriers. For this very reason SouthWest will go into CLT with a vengence if afforded the chance

WN has said on the record that it doesn't help their goals to see US collapse. Think about it: Southwest likes to mature a presence at every station. If US were to liquidate, the rush to fill their vacume would mean missed opportunites in crucial markets.

For WN, establishing a station is like pruning a bonsi. Patience equals profit, haste equals waste.
 
RDUDDJI
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RE: Southwest Has Charlotte In It's Sights

Thu Mar 24, 2005 1:33 pm

If WN wants CLT, I guarantee you CLT will find gates for them. No airport would willingly pass up getting WN. It would be political suicide.

RDU didn't have the gates initially when WN came along...they built the "trailer" attachment to terminal A and moved CO and NW down there and gave WN their 4 or 5 gates. Other airports have made similar accomodations.

Quoting Doninfc (Reply 6):
a local population of almost 2 million.

Most recent statistics (2003) available show CLT's MSA at 1.61 mil. 2 mil is a bit of a stretch. Also, some of that population actually lives in S.C. so it's also fairly close to GSP.

http://recenter.tamu.edu/data/popm/pm1520.htm
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casinterest
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RE: Southwest Has Charlotte In It's Sights

Thu Mar 24, 2005 1:37 pm

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 24):
WN has said on the record that it doesn't help their goals to see US collapse. Think about it: Southwest likes to mature a presence at every station. If US were to liquidate, the rush to fill their vacume would mean missed opportunites in crucial markets.

It may not help their goals to see Southwest collapse, but with the moves into Pittsburgh and Philadelphia by US airways, and with Airtran moving into Charlotte, there is a timer going, and I just don't think US Airways will pull it off.

As for Charlotte surviving the demise of US Airways. I think it will be a hub for another airline if US Airways falls, for the same reason US airways has it now. It is in the perfect location to connnect the Northeast and Southeast. who will fill that gap, I do not know, but it will get filled.
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darrell
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RE: Southwest Has Charlotte In It's Sights

Thu Mar 24, 2005 4:50 pm

Charleston, SC would be a great city for Southwest, especially if Indy bites the dust.
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nucsh
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RE: Southwest Has Charlotte In It's Sights

Thu Mar 24, 2005 11:53 pm

Quoting Cltguy (Reply 23):
Now, CLT does have $400M in cash sitting in the bank....and ERJ is saying that we should invest that money in a bankrupt carrier? That would be the WORST move that CLT could do.

Not necessarily. US is at a point where that extra little investment could push them back out of Ch.11.

IMO - Charlotte and CLT are making a horrible move by not supporting the major CLT carrier. You can't expect HP/Mesa to come in if US fails, and you sure as heck can't count on WN for major travel (i.e. Business, International) from CLT.

And about the gate space issue, I'm pretty sure that AirTran just grabbed the last of the free (domestic) gates. Unless someone else cuts frequency, or DH goes under, there aren't many available spaces. Of course, you always have those 4-5 Conc.D gates that are never used (probably being kept warm if BA ever decides to come back  Yeah sure ). BUT, there have been talks to expand Conc.B out towards Rnwy 18R, so there might be some extra space in a few years (as in, oh say... 10 years).
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nucsh
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RE: Southwest Has Charlotte In It's Sights

Thu Mar 24, 2005 11:58 pm

Quoting RDUDDJI (Reply 25):
If WN wants CLT, I guarantee you CLT will find gates for them. No airport would willingly pass up getting WN. It would be political suicide.

Not really. Just because RDU got desperate dosn't mean CLT will. Hell, CLT isn't even supporting the home team.

Quoting RDUDDJI (Reply 25):
Most recent statistics (2003) available show CLT's MSA at 1.61 mil. 2 mil is a bit of a stretch. Also, some of that population actually lives in S.C. so it's also fairly close to GSP.

You're forgetting about the expansive North Mecklenburg/South Iredell area around Lake Norman. Add about another .5 - 1 million extra people to Charlotte's pop number just from that. These people primarily fly out of CLT, as well as people in Concord (another large pop area), Gastonia, Lincolnton, Statesville, Hickory. (the last two are a bit of a stretch, I know). Anyway, with all of those communities being considered, Charlotte really has a market of about 2.5 - 3.5 million.
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ATLhomeCMH
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RE: Southwest Has Charlotte In It's Sights

Fri Mar 25, 2005 12:10 am

Quoting DAYflyer (Reply 14):
Charlotte would likely then be the choice since PIT is not that great of a market. They would need it to keep the likes of Airtran from swallowing up the entire SE USA if US closes up.

True, though it remains to be seen which region of the country FL will focus their inevitable expansion...the West or SE.

Quoting Cltguy (Reply 23):
As of late there have been a number of airlines that have said they are considering making Charlotte a hub if USAirways goes under...among them are America West and Mesa.

CLT would be a good hub for HP, given that since the collapse of their CMH operation they have been seeking a hub back east. But are they in good enough financial shape to move into CLT lock, stock, and barrel in the event of a US liquidation, i.e. if it occurred sometime in 2006 like many industry observers are forecasting?
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PHLBOS
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RE: Southwest Has Charlotte In It's Sights

Fri Mar 25, 2005 12:21 am

While WN may have CLT on its sights (as per the thread title), FL will start serving CLT w/ATL and BWI flights on May 4; which is coincidentally the same day that WN starts PIT operations.

The real question here, is whether Herb and/or Gary Kelly may now be kicking themselves for not looking into CLT before deciding on PIT. Had FL been a little more aggressive at PIT (they've been there since 2001), maybe WN would've considered CLT sooner.

Either way, WN and FL have co-existed at other airports before; why would CLT be any different?
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cltguy
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RE: Southwest Has Charlotte In It's Sights

Fri Mar 25, 2005 12:22 am

Quoting RDUDDJI (Reply 25):
Most recent statistics (2003) available show CLT's MSA at 1.61 mil. 2 mil is a bit of a stretch. Also, some of that population actually lives in S.C. so it's also fairly close to GSP.

http://recenter.tamu.edu/data/popm/p...0.htm

The MSA numbers are not good for this subject. To make myself clear....Raleigh and Durham are in different MSA's...but don't they use the same airport?

A better number to use is the CSA number of 2.2 Million....
Or since people are willing to drive 100 miles for low fares (people drive to GSO and RDU all the time from Charlotte)...
The 100 Mile radius population is 6 Million.

[Edited 2005-03-24 16:29:12]
 
gsoflyer
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RE: Southwest Has Charlotte In It's Sights

Fri Mar 25, 2005 12:25 am

Quoting Nucsh (Reply 29):
You're forgetting about the expansive North Mecklenburg/South Iredell area around Lake Norman. Add about another .5 - 1 million extra people to Charlotte's pop number just from that. These people primarily fly out of CLT, as well as people in Concord (another large pop area), Gastonia, Lincolnton, Statesville, Hickory. (the last two are a bit of a stretch, I know). Anyway, with all of those communities being considered, Charlotte really has a market of about 2.5 - 3.5 million.

Not true at all. Charlotte, the city itself, is 506,000. The Metropolitan area of 1.6 million contains, Mecklenburg, Iredell, Cabarrus, Union, Anson, Rowan, York (SC)

The Triad (Greensboro, High Point, Winston-Salem) is 1.4 million. This contains Greensboro at 310,000, High Point at 90,000, and Winston-Salem 199,000. This contains Forsyth, Guilford, Davidson, Randolph, Rockingham, Alamance, Davie, Yadkin and Surry.

The Triangle (Raleigh, Durham) and contains Orange, Durham, Wake, Chatham, Person, Franklin, Nash, Johnston, Sanford and Harnett Counties.

Hope that helps.
 
Ryefly
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RE: Southwest Has Charlotte In It's Sights

Fri Mar 25, 2005 12:27 am

If Soutwest wanted five gates at CLT, this would be the time to do it before US emerges from Chapter 11. It will become more difficult for CLT to reject leases on gates after they exit.

If Southwest had it's heart set on CLT, they would most likely reject four of US Airways gates in concourse B and have US use any available gates at concourse D until an extension on Concourse B can be completed. They will probably have to shuffle around project deadlines and delay other projects to keep Jerry Orr happy and on budget. Once the extension us completed Southwest will most likely get two more gates giving them a total of six and US Airways will get the rest in B.
 
gsoflyer
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RE: Southwest Has Charlotte In It's Sights

Fri Mar 25, 2005 12:31 am

Quoting Cltguy (Reply 32):
The MSA numbers are not good for this subject. To make myself clear....Raleigh and Durham are in different MSA's...but don't they use the same airport?

No, Raleigh and Durham are in the same Metropolitan statistical area.

North Carolina has the following MSAs:
Charlotte-Gastonia-Rock Hill
Greensboro-High Point-Winston Salem
Raleigh-Durham-Chapel Hill

Norfolk-Hampton-Virginia Beach (VA)-Elizabeth City
Fayetteville
Jacksonville
Morehead City
Rocky Mount-Wilson
Goldsboro
New Bern
Wilmington
Florence-Lumberton
Asheville-Hendersonville
Hickory-Lenoir-Morganton
 
cltguy
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RE: Southwest Has Charlotte In It's Sights

Fri Mar 25, 2005 12:33 am

Quoting Gsoflyer (Reply 33):
Not true at all. Charlotte, the city itself, is 506,000. The Metropolitan area of 1.6 million contains, Mecklenburg, Iredell, Cabarrus, Union, Anson, Rowan, York (SC)

Sorry, try again. The Charlotte MSA contains these counties in 2004:
Anson, Cabarrus, Gaston, Mecklenburg and Union Counties in NC and York County in South Carolina. If you disagree, take it up with Census.gov

The population of Charlotte proper in 2004 was 614,330.
 
cltguy
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RE: Southwest Has Charlotte In It's Sights

Fri Mar 25, 2005 12:40 am

Quoting Gsoflyer (Reply 35):
No, Raleigh and Durham are in the same Metropolitan statistical area.

Once again you are wrong. You don't have to beleive me, just read any of the state's newspapers and you will see that Raleigh and Durham were split. Here is a link to an article in the N&O about the split. Also Greensboro and Winston Salem were split.

http://www.newsobserver.com/news/durham/story/1932038p-8285782c.html
 
exFATboy
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RE: Southwest Has Charlotte In It's Sights

Fri Mar 25, 2005 1:27 am

Rather than using MSAs when considering markets, I like to look at Arbitron's ADIs (Areas of Dominant Influence) or Nielsen's Designated Market Area (DMA) - more realistic sometimes, especially when considering the effects of advertising.

Raleigh-Durham is defined as a single ADI and DMA.
 
Ryefly
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RE: Southwest Has Charlotte In It's Sights

Fri Mar 25, 2005 1:41 am

From Charmeck.org

Quick Facts on Charlotte

Population: 614,330
Total Square Miles 267.8
Population of Mecklenburg County: 746,427
Population of Charlotte-Gastonia-Rock Hill, NC-SC 2005: 1,647,740
Population of Charlotte-Gastonia-Rock Hill, NC-SC 2025: Est. 2,243,440

Fortune 500 Presence
286 Fortune 500 firms represented
8 Fortune 500 firms Headquarters: Bank of America, Wachovia Corp, Duke Energy, Nucor Metals, Goodrich, Lending Tree, US LEC, Sonic Automotive.
"America's Most Livable Community" by American Federal for the Blind

2nd largest banking center in the nation (controls more than $1 trillion in assets)
3rd best metro for business location
4th among "Best Cities for Black Families" by www.BET.com
5th largest urban region in the U.S.
6th largest trading area in the U.S.
6th largest wholesale center in the U.S.
6th in number of Fortune headquartered companies
8th best city for entrepreneurship
One of the "10 Best Places to Live" by Money magazine
20th among "Best Cities for Women" by Ladies Home Journal
21st most active airport in the U.S. (in total passengers)
26th largest city in the U.S. (in total population)
28th among "America's Most Wired Cities" by Yahoo! Internet Life
One of "America's 32 most livable cities" by Partners for Livable Communities (2003, 2004)
#2 municipal web site in the country
 
travisnc
Posts: 95
Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2003 9:25 am

RE: Southwest Has Charlotte In It's Sights

Fri Mar 25, 2005 2:16 am

Raleigh and Durham were split into two MSAs, however they were rejoined into a CSA (consolidated statistical area). So were Washington and Baltimore and San Francisco and San Jose for example, but it really doesn't matter in this thread because you aren't required to live in one of those counties to use the airport.

One example is my county on the NC/VA border. The closest airports with commercial service are PGV (Pitt/Greenville - 82 mi), RIC (83 mi), and RDU (92 mi). Almost everyone from my area uses RDU though because it has a lot more service and lower fares than RIC or PGV.

O&D is a better measure in this situation. RDU has the O&D of CLT & GSO combined. Of course CLT is hurt by having some of the highest fares in the country and a lot of people from the GSO area drive to RDU.

The point is, looking at some of the cities WN serves, CLT and GSO both have enough O&D to support them, but CLT has more (a little more than double GSO).

------------------------------

Quoting Nucsh (Reply 28):
Of course, you always have those 4-5 Conc.D gates that are never used (probably being kept warm if BA ever decides to come back ).

Concourse D has 13 gates. They probably get used quite a bit by LH for their MUC flight and US for their 20-40 international flights each day. That's not to say there isn't any room for WN.
 
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ERJ170
Posts: 5498
Joined: Thu Apr 15, 2004 11:15 am

RE: Southwest Has Charlotte In It's Sights

Fri Mar 25, 2005 2:21 am

Quoting RyeFly (Reply 39):
They probably get used quite a bit by LH for their MUC flight and US for their 20-40 international flights each day.

If I"m not mistaken, those gates are used for LH, US international-international flights, and US international-domesticate/domesticate-international flights..

I had a friend who flew on a flight to PVD from Concourse D because his aircraft was coming from the Caribbean..
Aiming High and going far..
 
cltguy
Posts: 541
Joined: Fri Sep 24, 2004 10:54 pm

RE: Southwest Has Charlotte In It's Sights

Fri Mar 25, 2005 2:57 am

Quoting TravisNC (Reply 40):
O&D is a better measure in this situation. RDU has the O&D of CLT & GSO combined. Of course CLT is hurt by having some of the highest fares in the country and a lot of people from the GSO area drive to RDU.

And if CLT had the fares that RDU has...I would be willing to bet it would have the O&D of RDU and GSO combined...if not more.

I agree with you that the MSA numbers are not good ones to use. The CSA or 100 mile radius numbers are much better for this type of conversation.
 
cltguy
Posts: 541
Joined: Fri Sep 24, 2004 10:54 pm

RE: Southwest Has Charlotte In It's Sights

Fri Mar 25, 2005 3:02 am

Quoting ERJ170 (Reply 41):
If I"m not mistaken, those gates are used for LH, US international-international flights, and US international-domesticate/domesticate-international flights..

I had a friend who flew on a flight to PVD from Concourse D because his aircraft was coming from the Caribbean..

Yea! You finally got something right about CLT  Smile
Starting this summer Mx will be using a D gate as well.
 
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ERJ170
Posts: 5498
Joined: Thu Apr 15, 2004 11:15 am

RE: Southwest Has Charlotte In It's Sights

Fri Mar 25, 2005 3:11 am

Quoting Cltguy (Reply 43):
Yea! You finally got something right about CLT

 alert   bomb   box   censored   fight 

Watch it Mr...

Quoting Cltguy (Reply 42):
And if CLT had the fares that RDU has...I would be willing to bet it would have the O&D of RDU and GSO combined...if not more.

If CLT was in the same situation as RDU and GSO (meaning not a hub), the number of passengers would probably be something like this..

CLT... 10-11 Million
RDU... 8-10 Million
GSO... 6-8 Million

let's not put the city in such a big place cause it is called the Queen city... Charlotte may have a few more people, but RDU is a much larger destination.. and GSO is a good destination in it self and getting better..

So there is no way in hell that CLT would have double the traffic of RDU.. and if you are trying to say CLT would have 30-40 Million travelers on it's O&D alone.. you hit a good drag of that weed you on...
Aiming High and going far..
 
Ryefly
Posts: 1324
Joined: Wed Jun 21, 2000 7:56 am

RE: Southwest Has Charlotte In It's Sights

Fri Mar 25, 2005 3:14 am

The Lufthansa flight arrives at 2pm and is out at 4:10pm, and in the summer it will be arriving CLT at 3pm and leaving CLT at 5:10pm. It only uses that gate for two hours. There is no permanent signs in Concourse D at the Lufthansa gate or any gate for that matter. They use all Wide screen HDTV's at every gate in D. They could easily share the gate, especially being Star Alliance partners. The point is US could fit in some more domestic flights in between their international flights at any of those gates in D if they needed too. Parts of the day I have seen the concourse with only one plane parked at it.

Independence Air only fly's regional Jets in CLT and takes a gate in A, as does Continental. Move them to E along with United into B with it's codeshare and alliance partner US and that opens up four gates in A. The airport may be full, but shuffle a few things around and gates start opening up if Southwest needs them.
 
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casinterest
Posts: 5447
Joined: Sat Feb 12, 2005 5:30 am

RE: Southwest Has Charlotte In It's Sights

Fri Mar 25, 2005 3:15 am

MeSA
Here are the 2003 Metro Areas

Look around at the map and you can start to get an idea of the areas the cities can draw from.

1. According to this data, the NC pop size for Charlotte area and Raleigh-Durham combined is about equal,(Of course this ignores SC data, which gives charlotte quite a bit more draw).

2. Interesting things to consider.
a. Raleigh Durham percentage wise is growing faster than Charlotte and Triad region.
b. Triangle has higher per capita income.
c. RDU easily gets people from the Wilson, Rocky Mount, and Alamance areas.
d. RDU is still where a lot of airlines want to be. Charlotte is as well, but US air makes it difficult.
e. Southwest going to GSO would be insane considering that they probably already get a ton of passengers from Greensboro through Raleigh.
Older than I just was ,and younger than I will soo be.
 
cltguy
Posts: 541
Joined: Fri Sep 24, 2004 10:54 pm

RE: Southwest Has Charlotte In It's Sights

Fri Mar 25, 2005 3:45 am

Quoting ERJ170 (Reply 44):
So there is no way in hell that CLT would have double the traffic of RDU.. and if you are trying to say CLT would have 30-40 Million travelers on it's O&D alone.. you hit a good drag of that weed you on...

I never said that. Go back and read what I actually said. If you do, then will find that we are closer to agreement than you think.
 
Ryefly
Posts: 1324
Joined: Wed Jun 21, 2000 7:56 am

RE: Southwest Has Charlotte In It's Sights

Fri Mar 25, 2005 4:38 am

I personally believe that if Southwest would rather serve CLT over GSO for several reasons.

1. Having service in CLT would split the triad and give them options on Southwest to leave from RDU or CLT. This will feed traffic at both locations rather then take away passengers from the west & southwest of RDU where the bulk of the states population is. For example Winston Salem and High Point and to the west passengers could drive to CLT, and Greensboro, Burlington passengers and all points east could drive to RDU.

2. CLT would tap into South Carolina population as well, including Columbia, Greenville/Spartanburg which would not consider GSO as an option.

3. They could add destinations in CLT not available in RDU and visa versa and connect the two cities if they wanted too in the future because they are far enough by car, but a quick flight between the two cities. This would really put pressure on US Airways.
 
atct
Posts: 2472
Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2001 6:42 am

RE: Southwest Has Charlotte In It's Sights

Fri Mar 25, 2005 5:12 am

As an avid anti-USAirways man, Goooooo get em southwest!


ATCT
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