DfwRevolution
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AF/KLM Order 777F

Fri Mar 25, 2005 6:03 am

Not too many details... but I just heard that AF/KLM have placed a tender for 7 Boeing 777F.

http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.j...?type=businessNews&storyID=7999279


" PARIS (Reuters) - Air France KLM (AIRF.PA: Quote, Profile, Research) is set to order seven Boeing 777 freight carriers in a contract with Boeing Co. (BA.N: Quote, Profile, Research) worth about $1.5 billion, French newspaper La Tribune reported in a pre-released Friday edition.

The new planes would replace part of Europe's biggest airline's Boeing 747 fleet from the end of 2008, the paper said, citing trade union sources. "


[Edited 2005-03-24 22:04:14]
 
junior1970
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RE: AF/KLM Order 777F

Fri Mar 25, 2005 6:05 am

Source please ?..  Smile
 
BlatantEcho
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RE: AF/KLM Order 777F

Fri Mar 25, 2005 6:05 am

7 planes, $1.5 Billion

good lord that's some expensive metal.
They're not handing trophies out today
 
FriendlySkies
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RE: AF/KLM Order 777F

Fri Mar 25, 2005 6:06 am

I think he included a source in his post.

Excellent news, and great for the 777-200LR program (for those who want to argue that, the 777F is a direct conversion of the 777-200LR base, so yes, it's more or less the same airplane)!
 
KL808
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RE: AF/KLM Order 777F

Fri Mar 25, 2005 6:06 am

its probably mainly for Air France not for KLM.

KL operates 3 brand new spanking B747-406ERF.

Drew
AMS-LAX-MNL
 
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clickhappy
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RE: AF/KLM Order 777F

Fri Mar 25, 2005 6:07 am

worth about $1.5 billion

List prices  Smile
 
junior1970
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RE: AF/KLM Order 777F

Fri Mar 25, 2005 6:08 am

He must have edited it right when I replied, but anyway......Who else ordered the 777F before ?
 
DfwRevolution
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RE: AF/KLM Order 777F

Fri Mar 25, 2005 6:08 am

Quoting FriendlySkies (Reply 3):
I think he included a source in his post.

My edit after I put up the initial post included the source.

Good news to see the 6th 777 variant launched!
 
DfwRevolution
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RE: AF/KLM Order 777F

Fri Mar 25, 2005 6:09 am

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 7):
Who else ordered the 777F before ?

No one... this is the first (launch) order for the 777F

Both carriers are GE90 777 customers with extensive freight networks, so its a sensible (somewhat expected) order
 
mauriceb
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RE: AF/KLM Order 777F

Fri Mar 25, 2005 6:10 am

if got the feeling 2 will go to KLM..... don't know why through lol
 
NYC777
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RE: AF/KLM Order 777F

Fri Mar 25, 2005 6:14 am

Great news. Is LH a potential customer I heard. I think we may be seeing a plethora of orders for the 777LRF this year. Watch out!
That which does not kill me makes me stronger.
 
KL808
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RE: AF/KLM Order 777F

Fri Mar 25, 2005 6:14 am

Quoting MauriceB (Reply 9):
if got the feeling 2 will go to KLM..... Don't know why through lol

I doubt. It would be great, but it aint happening. Because in my opinion, if they wanted an aircraft in that size in Freighter version they would have converted some or added more MD-11's to their fleet.

Drew
AMS-LAX-MNL
 
junior1970
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RE: AF/KLM Order 777F

Fri Mar 25, 2005 6:15 am

What about FEDEX and/or UPS ? Have they shown interest ?

[Edited 2005-03-24 22:15:32]
 
NYC777
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RE: AF/KLM Order 777F

Fri Mar 25, 2005 6:16 am

I heard they were very interested in this. Particularly for cargo routes that are very long and thin that would be overserved by the A380.
That which does not kill me makes me stronger.
 
AT502B
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RE: AF/KLM Order 777F

Fri Mar 25, 2005 6:17 am

Great news for the 777 program. I imagine this freighter variant of the 777LR will turn out to be a good seller. Any ideas on who else will be looking at ordering some of these beautys?
I love the smell of jet fuel in the morning.
 
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PanAm_DC10
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RE: AF/KLM Order 777F

Fri Mar 25, 2005 6:20 am

That will be a nice launch order for 777F. Good for the 772LR program too. Is this the first time AF & KLM will, or have made, a joint order?

Regards
Ask the impossible to achieve the best possible
 
SNATH
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RE: AF/KLM Order 777F

Fri Mar 25, 2005 6:23 am

Congrats to Boeing, KL and AF. Now, let's hope that they will follow this one up with a joint B787 order soon! Yeah, I'm dreaming  cloudnine .

Quoting KL808 (Reply 4):
KL operates 3 brand new spanking B747-406ERF.

Doesn't AF also operate new-ish B747-400ERFs?

Tony
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gigneil
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RE: AF/KLM Order 777F

Fri Mar 25, 2005 6:39 am

Quoting SNATH (Reply 16):
Doesn't AF also operate new-ish B747-400ERFs?

Yes, they do.

N
 
FlySSC
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RE: AF/KLM Order 777F

Fri Mar 25, 2005 7:05 am

Quoting SNATH (Reply 16):
Doesn't AF also operate new-ish B747-400ERFs?

AF was one of the very first customer for the B744ERF. The first a/c was delivered to AF in Oct.2002.
AF operates now 4 of them (F-GIUA/B/C/D).

AF has announced few months ago its intention to retire the entire fleet of B742F before 2009 and to replace them by additional B744F (some of them converted from Pax to all Cargo) and some new B772LRF.

This order is placed by AFKL, because it's now the official name of the airline, and ALL the future orders of a/c will be placed under the name of AFKL but I believe this B777LRF will be operated by AF from CDG.


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starrion
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RE: AF/KLM Order 777F

Fri Mar 25, 2005 7:09 am

Wow! That's 13 777 orders announced today.

Good day for Boeing. The Freighter is probably going to be a huge seller given the few numbers of MD-11's left available for conversion. Plus these 777's have parts commonality with the PAX fleets.

Looks like Boeing is headed in the right direction.
Knowledge Replaces Fear
 
planekrazy777
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RE: AF/KLM Order 777F

Fri Mar 25, 2005 7:16 am

what about cargolux, think they will go for 777LRF
 
MaverickM11
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RE: AF/KLM Order 777F

Fri Mar 25, 2005 7:18 am

In which livery do you suppose these aircraft will be painted?
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
lijnden
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RE: AF/KLM Order 777F

Fri Mar 25, 2005 7:41 am

Why would AF go for the T7F? The A380F would be more logical being build and subsidized in France. The T7F would be more logical for Martinair to replace the MD11's.
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BlatantEcho
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RE: AF/KLM Order 777F

Fri Mar 25, 2005 7:46 am

I wouldn't be surprised if some airlines wait to see what happens with the 747ADV. As I know the 747ADV-F was highly thought of by a number of airlines. (the F-ADV comes with an even bigger plug than the proposed pax -ADV.)
They're not handing trophies out today
 
co7772wuh
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RE: AF/KLM Order 777F

Fri Mar 25, 2005 7:48 am

This is certainly good news for the 777-200LR program and Boeing ! Maybe this was Boeing's intentesions to have the 777-200LR to sell more as a Freighter and less a pax a/c ?

Quoting Starrion (Reply 19):
Wow! That's 13 777 orders announced today.

What are the other 5 777 orders ?  confused  I heard of some 777 orders yesterday !

I am wondering if the 747F will continue to sell ?

Again , good news for Boeing ! goodvibes 

777-200LR Tanker ???  idea  That would be nice , but doubtful !
 
DfwRevolution
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RE: AF/KLM Order 777F

Fri Mar 25, 2005 7:49 am

Quoting Lijnden (Reply 22):
Why would AF go for the T7F? The A380F would be more logical being build and subsidized in France.

The A388F has a much lower freight density than the 777F can carry. Off the top of my head, the A388F is expected to lift 8.5 lbs per ft^3, while the 777F is aiming for 11 lbs per ft^3. The enormus volume makes the A388F well suited as a parcel freighter, especially for carriers like FedEx flying packages between distribution hubs. But for higher density cargos at less consistent volumes, the 777 is the better choice.

The smaller volume of the 777F gives it better mission versatility/flexibility which translates into less risk than the A388F.
 
Avianca
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RE: AF/KLM Order 777F

Fri Mar 25, 2005 7:54 am

Quoting MauriceB (Reply 9):
if got the feeling 2 will go to KLM..... don't know why through lol



Quoting KL808 (Reply 11):
I doubt. It would be great, but it aint happening. Because in my opinion, if they wanted an aircraft in that size in Freighter version they would have converted some or added more MD-11's to their fleet.

I also think KLM will get the 777freighters. KLM has still smaller cargo operations, but it is more expensive and also the qualitity is lot better than AF Cargo. AF also in future will get more freight but more the cheaper freight for the B-Service product what they are offer...

regards
Andreas
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starrion
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RE: AF/KLM Order 777F

Fri Mar 25, 2005 8:07 am

Biman To Order 6 X 777 & 4 X A330

There are a lot of cargo companies that need a/c in this size range to replace all the DC-10's and others that will be aging out of the fleets.
Knowledge Replaces Fear
 
AGrayson514
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RE: AF/KLM Order 777F

Fri Mar 25, 2005 8:07 am

Quoting Co7772wuh (Reply 24):
What are the other 5 777 orders ? I heard of some 777 orders yesterday !

I am wondering if the 747F will continue to sell ?

I believe that the other 777 order came from Biman Bangladesh

The 747F will continue to sell despite the new 777F because the 747F has a swing open nose for loading of cargo, whereas the 777F will have a cargo door on the side like most other cargo planes. The 747 is unique in its design because the cockpit and all related components are located above the main cargo deck, allowing for the nose to open. The 747 was, in fact originally intended for cargo use, PAX 747s were really an after thought after Boeing lost the C5 contract.
Give a little bit...
 
DfwRevolution
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RE: AF/KLM Order 777F

Fri Mar 25, 2005 8:12 am

Quoting AGrayson514 (Reply 28):
The 747 was, in fact originally intended for cargo use, PAX 747s were really an after thought after Boeing lost the C5 contract.

The 747 that reached production was a far cry from the military heavy-lift proposal, the only thing they shared were the first-generation high-bypass turbofans.

Boeing gave the commercial 747 excellent cargo capabilities because it was expected that most passenger traffic would be super-sonic with a decade or two, and slower subsonic aircraft would be relegated to freighter duty.
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: AF/KLM Order 777F

Fri Mar 25, 2005 8:20 am

Whoopeeee!

*does a cartwheel*  Smile





Sorta wish AF would've tacked on two or three of the pax version as well, but anyways  Smile
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
teamregal
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RE: AF/KLM Order 777F

Fri Mar 25, 2005 8:29 am

Quoting Lijnden (Reply 22):
Why would AF go for the T7F? The A380F would be more logical being build and subsidized in France.

To expand on DfwRevolution's reply, AF is choosing the appropriate equipment for the specific mission regardless of where it was manufactured. Plus, they already have a large number of 777s in their fleet including their shiny new 773ERs. It was no surprise that they ordered the 777F.

REGAL
You would dare to challenge me? .........Insanity!
 
galapagapop
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RE: AF/KLM Order 777F

Fri Mar 25, 2005 9:21 am

I'm sure Fedex would want some of these to help out with cargo routes from USA to Asia.

Cheers!
 
flyabunch
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RE: AF/KLM Order 777F

Fri Mar 25, 2005 9:43 am

Quoting Lijnden (Reply 22):
Why would AF go for the T7F? The A380F would be more logical being build and subsidized in France.

I think the order is very logical as it fits nicely with AF's opinion of the 777. And, as has been mentioned, they will probably need both the 777 and the 380 in freighter configuration to handle the different situatons.

Besides, AF, much to my pleasant surprise, does not seem to be hung up on the politics of their plane buying decisions. I just wish that the rest of the world, and most A.net members would be that enlightened.

The smartest purchase is the one that is most cost effective for the potential use. No matter who builds it.

Mike
 
iowa744fan
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RE: AF/KLM Order 777F

Fri Mar 25, 2005 9:44 am

Quoting AGrayson514 (Reply 28):
The 747F will continue to sell despite the new 777F because the 747F has a swing open nose for loading of cargo, whereas the 777F will have a cargo door on the side like most other cargo planes. The 747 is unique in its design because the cockpit and all related components are located above the main cargo deck, allowing for the nose to open. The 747 was, in fact originally intended for cargo use, PAX 747s were really an after thought after Boeing lost the C5 contract.

To follow up upon what DFWRevolution said, Juan Trippe was a big advocate of the upper deck and hinged-nose option for the reason specified. The model that was proposed for the C-5 was quite different, but the new design and the new high bypass engines being developed for the C-5 project started the path to PAX ops.

Also, from what I understand, the hinged-nose on the 747 freighters is not really that important and a big selling point. Although it is efficient to be able to load cargo through two dimensions...not to mention allowing the 747 to accomodate special cargo with longer dimensions as it can go straight in...the upper deck restricts cargo loaded via the nose to be only 8 feet high. However, the height limit for cargo beyond the upper deck area is around 10 feet. For less dense cargo, most is loaded via the aft side door since it allows for pallets up to 10 feet high...thus maximizing volume usage. Nose loaded cargo is generally restricted to just the shorter pallets stored up front under the upper deck. Many cargo operators view the upper deck as a burden for this reason. This is one of the reasons that converted 747 freighters only have a rear side cargo door. I don't know if Boeing offers the nose to be converted to the swing-up design, but the additional cost and weight from machinery required to operate and latch the nose often outweigh any benefits.
 
atmx2000
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RE: AF/KLM Order 777F

Fri Mar 25, 2005 10:19 am

Quoting Flyabunch (Reply 33):
Besides, AF, much to my pleasant surprise, does not seem to be hung up on the politics of their plane buying decisions. I just wish that the rest of the world, and most A.net members would be that enlightened

Well let's see the order RR or PW engines before coming to any hasty conclusions.

Another thing you have to consider is that if it were seen that most continental European airlines were extremely biased towards Airbus purchases, access to the what traditionally was the largest market for aircraft, the US market, would probably have been curtailed.
ConcordeBoy is a twin supremacist!! He supports quadicide!!
 
777ER
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RE: AF/KLM Order 777F

Fri Mar 25, 2005 10:44 am

Any idea on when to expect this B772LRF order announcement?
 
WunalaYann
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RE: AF/KLM Order 777F

Fri Mar 25, 2005 4:56 pm

Quoting Atmx2000 (Reply 35):
Another thing you have to consider is that if it were seen that most continental European airlines were extremely biased towards Airbus purchases, access to the what traditionally was the largest market for aircraft, the US market, would probably have been curtailed.

Absolutely right.

There is a common misperception, including here in France, that AF's fleet is all-Airbus. Totally wrong. Just like LH, BA and IB have always been strong Boeing customers, AF has long been a significant Boeing operator (T7s, 747s, 737s, notably).

That's actually a credit to these flagship carriers, since they have been able to, at least partially, fend off suffocating political pressure to run their business like they wanted to.

People here were dumbfounded to learn that AF was not the launch customer for the A380. Ok, Frenchmen, say hello to the world...

 Big grin
 
a380900
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RE: AF/KLM Order 777F

Fri Mar 25, 2005 5:14 pm

I'm all for political pressure. We are subsidizing Airbus and Air France, it would be nice if the latter could buy stuff from the former.
 
atmx2000
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RE: AF/KLM Order 777F

Fri Mar 25, 2005 5:25 pm

Quoting WunalaYann (Reply 37):
There is a common misperception, including here in France, that AF's fleet is all-Airbus. Totally wrong. Just like LH, BA and IB have always been strong Boeing customers, AF has long been a significant Boeing operator (T7s, 747s, 737s, notably).


I don't know about LH or IB, as they have really only bought Boeing in the last decade or so when there was no comparable product from Airbus. If AF were to behave the same way, all three principal airlines of the continental Airbus partners would be buying Airbus primarily and the actual accessibility of the continental European airline market to Boeing would have to be questioned, leading to problems for Airbus sales in the US.
ConcordeBoy is a twin supremacist!! He supports quadicide!!
 
WunalaYann
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RE: AF/KLM Order 777F

Fri Mar 25, 2005 7:02 pm

Quoting A380900 (Reply 38):
I'm all for political pressure. We are subsidizing Airbus and Air France, it would be nice if the latter could buy stuff from the former.

Thank God, AF is a private company and is allowed to conduct business the way it should. AF have already acquired a few T7, and seem very happy with them.

As for subsidies, hopefully the WTO hearings will level the playing field.
 
trex8
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RE: AF/KLM Order 777F

Fri Mar 25, 2005 9:49 pm

Quoting Atmx2000 (Reply 39):
I don't know about LH or IB, as they have really only bought Boeing in the last decade or so when there was no comparable product from Airbus

Do you mean they had no good (for them) choices in the last decade except Airbus or they only bought Boeing in the last decade and did not before?? Because LH was a launch 737 customer and a big 707, 727 and 747 customer. IB were in Douglas' pocket for years.
 
FlySSC
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RE: AF/KLM Order 777F

Fri Mar 25, 2005 10:00 pm

Quoting Lijnden (Reply 22):
Why would AF go for the T7F? The A380F would be more logical being build and subsidized in France

This is the typical kind of stupid statement I hope I could avoid reading on that forum...  headache 

What about the 25 B772ER + 8 B773ER already in service ? plus the 8 B773ER on order + the extra 7 B773ER announced recently ?
What about the 4 B744ERF in service with AF & the 16 B744 PAX in service ?

The A380F may suit all Cargo operator but it is far too big for AF !
In a medium term, AF Cargo's fleet will consist in a mix of B744F and B777LRF and that's excately what we need.
Maybe some A332F could be added, especially for the African market, but it has not been decided yet.
AF is regularly operating some A300F, leased from Islandsfluf cargo on its west African network (CMN, DKR, NKC, CKY etc...)


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WunalaYann
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RE: AF/KLM Order 777F

Fri Mar 25, 2005 10:07 pm

Thank you for some much needed facts, FlySSC, and welcome to my Respected list!

I second your opinion 100%!!!

 bigthumbsup 
 
co7772wuh
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RE: AF/KLM Order 777F

Fri Mar 25, 2005 10:18 pm

Quoting A380900 (Reply 38):
I'm all for political pressure. We are subsidizing Airbus and Air France, it would be nice if the latter could buy stuff from the former.

I don't think 10% of the French population that's currently unemployeed appreciate the subsidizing of Airbus and AF !

I feel it's much more healthy for Airlines to purchase a/c that specifically fit there needs !  airplane 
 
VS74741R
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RE: AF/KLM Order 777F

Fri Mar 25, 2005 11:50 pm

Why isn't this on Boeings website? I want to see an artists impression  bigthumbsup 
Obviously a Virgin Atlantic fan!!!
 
FlySSC
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RE: AF/KLM Order 777F

Fri Mar 25, 2005 11:52 pm

Quoting A380900 (Reply 38):
We are subsidizing Airbus and Air France

Could you explain me, with facts and figures :

Why does a lot of people always feel "obliges" to link Air France with Airbus ???

HOW, WHEN, and HOW MUCH "you" (as a tax payer) are subsiding Air France since 1993 ?
 sarcastic 
 
WunalaYann
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RE: AF/KLM Order 777F

Fri Mar 25, 2005 11:58 pm

Quoting Co7772wuh (Reply 47):
I feel it's much more healthy for Airlines to purchase a/c that specifically fit there needs !

I definitely think so. The problem is you will always find people to argue that those "needs" include satisfying the bloated egos of a few politicians...

That's why I give credit to the flagship carriers of countries involved in Airbus for sticking to their business plans, whether it means buying Airbuses or not.
 
whitehatter
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RE: AF/KLM Order 777F

Sat Mar 26, 2005 12:48 am

Quoting FlySSC (Reply 44):

The A380F may suit all Cargo operator but it is far too big for AF !

Correct. If you look at some of the work AF Cargo actually does, they have a need for freighters which can fly long sectors with a respectable payload. One such field AF does a LOT of business in is the wine trade.

Just for that particular job alone, the 777F is ideal for Air France as it offers plenty of uplift for a relatively dense item and potentially less stops between
the client and destination. In particular export of wine to Japan and the USA west coast markets.

An A380F would be just too much plane for that job, and with a dense payload may require additional stops (and time) to deliver this expensive and delicate cargo.
Lead me not into temptation, I can find my own way there...
 
gigneil
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RE: AF/KLM Order 777F

Sat Mar 26, 2005 12:58 am

Quoting Galapagapop (Reply 32):
I'm sure Fedex would want some of these to help out with cargo routes from USA to Asia.

Doubtful.

Firstly, I think it will be a cold day in hell before you see FedEx order another new Boeing.

Secondly, FedEx has a great fleet of M11s to supplement the A380 to Asia.

Thirdly, FedEx needs volume, not uplift.

The 777F is just too expensive and is an imperfect fit for FedEx.

N