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malaysia
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Are Mid-runway Take Offs Done In US?

Sun Mar 27, 2005 6:42 am

I dont really know the term to use, but its when a plane just enters the middle of the runway, to do a rollout, not the threshold or begining section.

I have always started from the end of a runway in the US, except for one day when I was on AirAsia, they just simply went straight from the terminal and
went on a runoff taxiway and then just turned around in the middle of the runway and the plane took off in the middle of the runway. We just lifted off right when I could see the
end threshold lines.

what if there was a emergency? no extra length left. is this allowed in US
or Malaysia has an exception?

I think it was taxiway A8 or something, not sure, I dont remember, but was
exactly perpendicular to G gates at KUL.
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kcrwflyer
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RE: Are Mid-runway Take Offs Done In US?

Sun Mar 27, 2005 6:43 am

yes, on commuter props its common.
 
jdwfloyd
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RE: Are Mid-runway Take Offs Done In US?

Sun Mar 27, 2005 6:46 am

Intersection departures are very common in the States.
 
desertjets
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RE: Are Mid-runway Take Offs Done In US?

Sun Mar 27, 2005 7:11 am

At ORD departures from T10 (I believe) on 32L are the norm for most aircraft, and seems to be the prefered ideal conditions setup. This gives you ~8500' of runway and minimizes any conflicts with arrivals on 27L.
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charlib52
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RE: Are Mid-runway Take Offs Done In US?

Sun Mar 27, 2005 7:13 am

Whenever I fly from ORD-SEA I always seem to depart from intersection M on 32L. Of course 32L is 13,000 ft, so plenty of room, even for a maxed-out MD-80. Although one wonders some days....  Smile

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Carpethead
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RE: Are Mid-runway Take Offs Done In US?

Sun Mar 27, 2005 8:39 am

It's very common for short-haul flights to use intersection departures throughout the world.
We, here in the Japan, see 744D using only 2,500m of runway length for a domestic flight because it doesn't need 4,000m or so of runway and the extra taxi time can be cut-off.
 
FriendlySkies
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RE: Are Mid-runway Take Offs Done In US?

Sun Mar 27, 2005 8:43 am

Quoting DesertJets (Reply 3):
At ORD departures from T10 (I believe) on 32L are the norm for most aircraft, and seems to be the prefered ideal conditions setup. This gives you ~8500' of runway and minimizes any conflicts with arrivals on 27L.

It is T10, and they almost never use all of 32L for takeoffs. This way planes can land on 9R or 27L without interruption, as you said.
 
yyz757fan
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RE: Are Mid-runway Take Offs Done In US?

Sun Mar 27, 2005 8:55 am

Intersection departures are common at YYZ as well ,usually with turbo props the short haul or biz jets. Ground controller will offer the intersection departure and give the runway length available . Its always up to the pilots discretion so guess who gets the blame if a problem develops.
 
wedgetail737
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RE: Are Mid-runway Take Offs Done In US?

Sun Mar 27, 2005 9:39 am

Southwest uses one of the high-speed taxiways to get onto the runway at OAK for take-off.
 
cancidas
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RE: Are Mid-runway Take Offs Done In US?

Sun Mar 27, 2005 11:26 am

intersection departues are the norm at JFK for example. i forget which runways it happens on. everything depends on the weight of the airplane and the available runway length.
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ANCFlyer
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RE: Are Mid-runway Take Offs Done In US?

Sun Mar 27, 2005 11:33 am

Quoting DesertJets (Reply 3):
At ORD departures from T10 (I believe) on 32L are the norm for most aircraft,

I was gonna say that . . .

And at ANC, departures on 6L are routinely done mid-runway with Otters, Metroliners and Saabs . . .
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isitsafenow
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RE: Are Mid-runway Take Offs Done In US?

Sun Mar 27, 2005 11:37 am

Full length going off 32L at ORD is usually saved for the Orient trips. Those seven-fours need a big running jump. Its always a buzz to watch them sllooooowly take to the air.
32L is around 13000 ft but at the T10, I am guessing 8500ft or there-about.
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B777fan
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RE: Are Mid-runway Take Offs Done In US?

Sun Mar 27, 2005 1:59 pm

At ORD, plenty of 744's start from T10 on 32L as well, not just the small stuff.

Gotta keep that traffic movin inbound to 9R.
 
apollo13
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RE: Are Mid-runway Take Offs Done In US?

Sun Mar 27, 2005 2:04 pm

Yeah i remember one time at Oakland, our southwest flight to BUR was almost empty and we taxied to the middle and were on our way.
 
ANITIX87
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RE: Are Mid-runway Take Offs Done In US?

Sun Mar 27, 2005 2:24 pm

A little bit off topic, but relating to Wedgetail737's post...what are the speeds for taxi-ways. It's something I've always wondered. And do they vary from airport to airport and based on the size of the taxiway? Thanks.

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jacobin777
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RE: Are Mid-runway Take Offs Done In US?

Sun Mar 27, 2005 2:30 pm

Quoting Carpethead (Reply 5):
We, here in the Japan, see 744D using only 2,500m of runway length for a domestic flight because it doesn't need 4,000m or so of runway and the extra taxi time can be cut-off.

Interestingly enough..... @ SFO, I have seen JL take off MANY times from midway of the 28's and 10's....basically just north (i.e. " to the "right" of 1R if one is going towards the 28's). I might even have some video recordings of it. I'm trying to find a a cheap web-hosting service (I don't want to put all my videos on Flightlevel 350).


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ConcordeBoy
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RE: Are Mid-runway Take Offs Done In US?

Sun Mar 27, 2005 2:38 pm

Slightly off topic... but there's an old pilots' saying that nothing is more useless than the runway (length that's) behind you  Wink
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ckfred
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RE: Are Mid-runway Take Offs Done In US?

Sun Mar 27, 2005 3:00 pm

The only time I've seen a departure from the end of 32L was a BA 777. There wasn't much wind that evening, and I'm guessing he was near MTOW.

I've done a mid-runway departure at YYZ on an AA F100. From my view, it appeared that the captain, not wanting to follow 3 or 4 other aircraft to the end of the runway, simply asked the tower for clearance for a mid-point departure and then did a quick taxi and take-off roll.
 
CactusA319
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RE: Are Mid-runway Take Offs Done In US?

Sun Mar 27, 2005 3:08 pm

Quoting Isitsafenow (Reply 11):
Full length going off 32L at ORD is usually saved for the Orient trips. Those seven-fours need a big running jump. Its always a buzz to watch them sllooooowly take to the air.
32L is around 13000 ft but at the T10, I am guessing 8500ft or there-about.

Pretty close, it's actually 8,800. Full length is saved for the heavy departures to Asia (744's and 777's) and occasionally a heavy bound for Europe (altough these typically depart from 32R). Using full length during the day sucks though, since the aircraft will have to sit and wait for several moments until there is a big enough gap in arrivals for him to launch.

At night, the full length of 32L is used on all departures for noise abatement purposes. The higher the planes are when they reach the residential areas northwest of the airport, the less complaints there are.
 
ckfred
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RE: Are Mid-runway Take Offs Done In US?

Sun Mar 27, 2005 3:11 pm

CactusA319:

What time does noise abatement procedures start for 32L departures? I've been on 10pm flights that departed 32L at T-10.
 
N1120A
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RE: Are Mid-runway Take Offs Done In US?

Sun Mar 27, 2005 3:28 pm

Quoting Carpethead (Reply 5):
We, here in the Japan, see 744D using only 2,500m of runway length for a domestic flight because it doesn't need 4,000m or so of runway and the extra taxi time can be cut-off.

I have seen UA 744s take off from LAX going to DEN that take off shorter than WN 737s going to PHX (maybe using 1500-1800m of 24L)

I actually did 2 intersection takeoffs on this last trip. On ORD-LAX I took off from 32L T10 and LAX-DEN took off from 25R Foxtrot, both 757s (naturally).
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ORD2PHL
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RE: Are Mid-runway Take Offs Done In US?

Sun Mar 27, 2005 3:40 pm

At night, the full length of 32L is used on all departures for noise abatement purposes. The higher the planes are when they reach the residential areas northwest of the airport, the less complaints there are.

Indeed, from someone that grew up in a NW suburb that borders ORD, it was every summer night that I found myself staring up from the baseball field at the heavy departures in the evening bound for the North Atlantic, what a great place to grow up!


ORD2PHL
 
ha763
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RE: Are Mid-runway Take Offs Done In US?

Sun Mar 27, 2005 3:51 pm

It is the norm for WP to do an intersection takeoff here at HNL from 8L. They usually enter the runway at taxiway L. Also this also allows them to cut in front of HA and AQ and takeoff first since HA and AQ taxi all the way down to the end of the runway.

However, during Kona winds ops, HA, AQ, and WP all do intersection takeoffs from either taxiway E or H on 26R. This allows for nearly simultaneous takeoffs from 26R and 22L/R.
 
UAFAN17
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RE: Are Mid-runway Take Offs Done In US?

Sun Mar 27, 2005 4:01 pm

ORD2PHL


As I sit here writing this I hear the Intl inbounds descending into O'hare over my house. during the day in the summer when I'm relaxing at the pool I can easily spot about 10-20 Europe bound flights leave ORD each day.


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Continental
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RE: Are Mid-runway Take Offs Done In US?

Sun Mar 27, 2005 4:36 pm

I see it from time to time at MSP with the Mesaba aircraft. I also took of at an intersection two years ago at ORD.
 
lincoln
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RE: Are Mid-runway Take Offs Done In US?

Sun Mar 27, 2005 4:37 pm

Quoting Jdwfloyd (Reply 2):
Intersection departures are very common in the States.

It appears I am mistaken, but I thought LAX prohibited intersection departures after an incident involving a USAir (727 or 737) landing behind and running over a Skywest Metroliner in the late '80s (I beleive there was a miscommunication during a shift change in the tower and the new controller didn't realize that the Skywest was already on the runway)

Reading the NTSB report I found it somewhat suprising that there was no CVR on the Skywest metroliner because they were not yet required in the aircraft. Skywest had them on hand and had wanted to install them in advance of the deadline, but when they asked the FAA the response was "even if they aren't required, if you have them installed and they aren't functioning you can't dispatch that aircraft." Skywest's response was essentially "well, then, we're not able to justify the risk of having an aircraft grounded"...

Quoting ConcordeBoy (Reply 16):
but there's an old pilots' saying that nothing is more useless than the runway (length that's) behind you

... altitude above you, or... what is the 3rd one? I think it has something to do with fuel...

Lincoln
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zeekiel
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RE: Are Mid-runway Take Offs Done In US?

Sun Mar 27, 2005 5:06 pm

A little bit off topic.

You have got to love intersection departures. The best is whenever I fly on a QF 763 to Auckland on the intersection departure off YSSY RW16R. Light load of passengers, getting close to the departure time. Fast taxi on to the runway, brilliant acceleration on the short take off run and steep climb.

Eat your heart out. Only one word can describe it.

Sheer mongrel.

Wait that's two. Ugh.

Cheers

Zeekiel

[Edited 2005-03-27 09:07:43]
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UA772IAD
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RE: Are Mid-runway Take Offs Done In US?

Sun Mar 27, 2005 6:19 pm

Alot of inner island traffic between the islands typically do that, especially out in HKO (Kona)
 
Morvious
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RE: Are Mid-runway Take Offs Done In US?

Sun Mar 27, 2005 7:14 pm

A little off topic

On Schiphol they use S3 and S4 sometimes for rwy 24. Most of the time for the F50's.
It does save some taxi time for them, and they can get out of the way fast for those heavies behind.

[Edited 2005-03-27 11:15:13]
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chicoco
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RE: Are Mid-runway Take Offs Done In US?

Sun Mar 27, 2005 7:22 pm

Malaysia,as Zeekiel says,at YSSY RW06R is often used in this manner, you see anything from 717,737,A320,763,743,744,using "intersection take offs"to MEL,BNE.Not for long haul flights due to payload and fuel.
 
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airportugal310
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RE: Are Mid-runway Take Offs Done In US?

Sun Mar 27, 2005 11:54 pm

Saw two (2) Commutair B-1900's do it at BOS yesterday off of 4R  Smile
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CosmicCruiser
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RE: Are Mid-runway Take Offs Done In US?

Mon Mar 28, 2005 12:08 am

Quoting Malaysia (Thread starter):
what if there was a emergency? no extra length left. is this allowed in US
or Malaysia has an exception?

Bottom line is, Yes intersection t/os are allowed even with bigger planes. Regardless, the performance data must show that you will have at least a "balanced field" or greater. You must have accel/stop and accel/go dist. That is rwy to stop with an eng failure just prior to V1 and rwy to t/o with an eng. failure at or above V1.
 
C133
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RE: Are Mid-runway Take Offs Done In US?

Mon Mar 28, 2005 12:12 am

Quoting Lincoln (Reply 25):
It appears I am mistaken, but I thought LAX prohibited intersection departures after an incident involving a USAir (727 or 737) landing behind and running over a Skywest Metroliner in the late '80s (I beleive there was a miscommunication during a shift change in the tower and the new controller didn't realize that the Skywest was already on the runway)

Not positive, but I think the FAA prohibited night intersection departures when the full length is being used for landings. (Accident conditions.) And everywhere, not just at LAX.
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daron4000
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RE: Are Mid-runway Take Offs Done In US?

Mon Mar 28, 2005 12:32 am

At ORD, the heavies use both T10 and the full length of 32 L. For example, last week, I flew from ORD to DEN on a 757, and we were waiting to go onto T10. We waitied for three 777's to take off from all of 32 L, going to PEK, PVG, and NRT. However, I've flown ORD-DEN on both 777 and 747 where we have used T10 and still gotten off the runway with plenty of room to spare.
 
lear35pilot
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RE: Are Mid-runway Take Offs Done In US?

Mon Mar 28, 2005 12:43 am

I just did a mid-runway departure on Friday from ORD. Granted, I was on a small plane (Lear 60), but we started our roll a good 3000+ feet down runway 32L.
 
bluejackets
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RE: Are Mid-runway Take Offs Done In US?

Mon Mar 28, 2005 1:24 am

I just did my first intersection takeoff at CMH last Thursday on a CO Express Jet to CLE. This was the first time I took off/witnessed any commercial aircraft at CMH do an intersection takeoff.
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UAMAYBACH1239
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RE: Are Mid-runway Take Offs Done In US?

Mon Mar 28, 2005 3:28 am

I have always started from the end of a runway in the US, except for one day when I was on AirAsia, they just simply went straight from the terminal and
went on a runoff taxiway and then just turned around in the middle of the runway and the plane took off in the middle of the runway. We just lifted off right when I could see the
end threshold lines.

At LAX you will see Skywest quite a bit on the southside in the afternoon,
and more so on weekends.  duck 
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airplane
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RE: Are Mid-runway Take Offs Done In US?

Mon Mar 28, 2005 6:03 am

For departures on JFK runway 31L I have always departed from intersection K on a DC-10 and A-310.

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A999
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RE: Are Mid-runway Take Offs Done In US?

Mon Mar 28, 2005 6:12 am

Why bother using the runway?
The following story occured many years ago at Bergen Flesland airport (BGO) in western Norway. DeHavilland of Canada was doing a demo on their new DHC-6 Twin Otter for Widerøe (later to be a major operator of this and the newer Dash-8) and Luftfartsverket (the Norwegian FAA). It was a very windy day so the pilots just turned off the tarmac, pointed the nose towards the wind, put the brakes on, applied full power, released the brakes and before CROSSING the runway they were airborne!
And if that`s not all about it; it was indeed a VERY windy day - a little bit later the Twin Otter came flying BACKWARDS....with a headwind faster than the near to stalling speed!
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PSU.DTW.SCE
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RE: Are Mid-runway Take Offs Done In US?

Mon Mar 28, 2005 8:29 am

We used the full 32L at ORD on an AA MD-80 once. Granted we were flying to SFO, fully loaded, in mid-July when it was 95 degrees.
 
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Starlionblue
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RE: Are Mid-runway Take Offs Done In US?

Mon Mar 28, 2005 8:33 am

Quoting Malaysia (Thread starter):
what if there was a emergency? no extra length left. is this allowed in US
or Malaysia has an exception?

If the runway length in front of the nose is enough to fulfil requirements, emergencies aren't more of a problem than if you use an extra few 1000'.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
timz
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RE: JL From SFO?

Mon Mar 28, 2005 8:57 am

"@ SFO, I have seen JL take off MANY times from midway of the 28's and 10's....basically just north (i.e. " to the "right" of 1R if one is going towards the 28's). I might even have some video recordings of it."

You're saying you've seen a JL 744 depart runway 28R from an intersection west of runway 1L? To Narita? If there's a video of that we would indeed like to see it.

[Edited 2005-03-28 01:27:10]
 
iowa744fan
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RE: Are Mid-runway Take Offs Done In US?

Mon Mar 28, 2005 9:22 am

Quoting B777fan (Reply 12):
At ORD, plenty of 744's start from T10 on 32L as well, not just the small stuff.

Gotta keep that traffic movin inbound to 9R.



Quoting Daron4000 (Reply 33):
At ORD, the heavies use both T10 and the full length of 32 L. For example, last week, I flew from ORD to DEN on a 757, and we were waiting to go onto T10. We waitied for three 777's to take off from all of 32 L, going to PEK, PVG, and NRT. However, I've flown ORD-DEN on both 777 and 747 where we have used T10 and still gotten off the runway with plenty of room to spare.

It all depends upon how heavy the aircraft is. For the shorter flights from ORD to say DEN or SFO, the 744s and 772s that UA uses or has used over the past are much lighter than when they are full of fuel for the long int'l routes. So, depending upon the route, you could easily expect something large to go off of T10. Just like in SFO. Often, you can see the widebodies that are doing shorter trips to DEN or ORD going off of 1L or 1R instead of the 28s. From what I understand (and have heard on Ch.9) the tower prefers to use T10 (for reasons discussed above), but much of the decision is to the discretion of the pilot.

Unfortunately, my one shot at going full length from 32L was lost a few years back. I was flying ORD-HKG, but winds required us to use 14R instead.
 
portcolumbus
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RE: Are Mid-runway Take Offs Done In US?

Tue Mar 29, 2005 7:41 am

Quoting Bluejackets (Reply 35):
I just did my first intersection takeoff at CMH last Thursday on a CO Express Jet to CLE. This was the first time I took off/witnessed any commercial aircraft at CMH do an intersection takeoff.

You had to because 1800' of 28L is closed.